Eviora

I'm not sure how any of you determine what is and isn't on topic. The opening post read like a slightly biased summary of recent events and speculation about them followed by an urge to "vote your conscience." The topic title also underscored that last bit. So it seems to me that discussing what exactly voting your conscience entails is entirely on topic. It also happens to be a very contentious topic where a lot of people have much on the line. It was obviously going to be a debate, and not a pretty one. If you've been paying attention to all the other similar topics, you would know that. It's fairly clear that converting the opposition is not going to happen today. Many of us have probably voted already. But if you're looking for there to be some rational benefit of such a discussion, what else would it be? Parroting facts at each other won't help anyone. We've all seen the debates already, I should think. This is a casual discussion. There's no need to cite them. And, when it comes to morality, you'll find yourself at a loss to prove much of anything to be more than an opinion. In fact, just about any lasting debating is going to be a matter of clashing ideas none of which are proven to be true; if the answer was known, the debate would be a short one. In the end, all this comes down to ideology, not fact. Oh, and if you wish to portray me as immature, let me save you the trouble. I am very childish. It's part of my personality, and I'm not ashamed of it.

That's not a double standard. That's just a matter of tolerating simple differences vs not tolerating violations of the rights of others. You do it, too, every time you judge anyone for any action. Otherwise you'd have to tolerate serial killers and their work. You just refuse to acknowledge that having excuses floating around in your head doesn't mitigate your actions.

@Turtlecat You're not being too harsh. There's just some ridiculous double standard in play that makes people act like berating people for horrific actions is not okay.

If a man pulls a gun on you and tells you he'll kill you, is that not reason enough to defend yourself? Trump has stated his intentions. Now it's a matter of who wants to arm him.

I rarely do. But, frankly, when I'm at my worst, the most comforting thought is that it would only take a few minutes of courage to rid myself of all my problems forever. I remind myself of that more often than most people would be comfortable with.

I think we can probably all agree that torturous murder for fun is unacceptable. That establishes the precedent that there are some things bad enough to be worth not tolerating. The question is whether or not one is too morally bankrupt to tell the difference. Am I intolerant of people who take actions that hurt me knowing full well what they're doing? Yes, I am, and I'm not sorry for that. The disdain you'll get from me for doing such a thing is earned. You can try to pretend that you didn't do anything wrong, but I will not humor you. Own the consequences of your actions.

W-what? Hunter has the same birthday as my brother?!? W-well, happy birthday!

Seriously, though, the point of Halloween varies in the eyes of one person to the next. If your goal for the night is to have fun, a "good" costume would be one that promotes having fun. If, for you, that means some innocent trick-or-treating and party-going and not dealing with angry, offended people, you should probably avoid costumes that are likely to offend, whether you believe other peoples' reasons for being offended are good or not. If fun, for you, is trolling people and making some social or political statement, so be it, but do realize that others are just trying to enjoy themselves, too, and that you may or may not be thrown out of the party for infringing upon that. That said, it's wise to keep your audience in mind. There are plenty of costumes that are acceptable at the right private party but that will earn you some unkind looks if you wear them for trick-or-treating. Looking at you, Harley~

This year on Halloween I dressed up as a mummy and laid in bed all day. I wouldn't recommend it. It wasn't nearly as fun as the times I went as a princess (i.e. myself) and stayed in my tower (i.e. my home) all day watching Halloween videos. But at least those videos are still waiting for me! Halloween is probably my favorite holiday 'cause I love scary stuff, and everyone suddenly decides it's their job to make scary content!

I'm too distracted by the prospect of my imminent death (or worse) to take that bait. Do your research.

Well, it's kind of you to say that, but I know what kind of aura I give off. I certainly have no delusions about being a friendly person. --- As far as a do-over is concerned, that would be a hard thing to justify on the Republican side considering that, as far as I'm aware, Trump won the nomination fair and square. Perhaps if fewer minor candidates crowded in for a shot at the glory the party could settle on someone a bit less horrible... On the Democratic side, though, apparently there was some type of bias in Hillary favor. That's a fact that doesn't sit well with me considering just how good a guy Bernie is. When asked if he was frustrated by learning that the DNC had conspired against him, Bernie admitted that he was, but then brushed the matter aside, held up a statement of Hillary's platform, and said, "This is what matters". It's a shame more politicians aren't so selfless. Though it may make me a fool, I trust Bernie to earnestly do what he thinks is best and to always treat people fairly. If, in 2020, Hillary finds herself running in the Democratic primary and she has a decent opponent, I don't think I'll forget what her camp did to Bernie. It's a shame he's almost certainly too old to run again.

Well, props to you for admitting you probably would have made a mistake. I suppose I can't hold what you never did against you - after all, I've made more than my share of actual mistakes. I find it difficult to accept anything less than complete legal equality when it comes to these discussion, because doing so feels like an endorsement of the idea that I'm worth less than most people, and I hate myself enough as it is without adding that baggage to the heap. Compromise, I feel, can only really be achieved when two parties view each other as deserving of respect. To me, the baseline decency not to reject an entire demographic without a really good reason (like if that demographic is "serial killers") is necessary to qualify for a position of any power. That is why I never can trust anyone who claims to give a shit about me when they're willing to support people who fall short of that standard. Anyway, it looks like, somehow, we've managed to temporarily diffuse the storm of emotions that usually follows me around, and I feel like I've emphasized my "actions first" way of thinking more than enough in this thread. It's probably just because this is the first day in a while that I've felt better than 'bleh'. Otherwise, I'm sure I would have done a better job of living up to my reputation as an insufferable bitch. Regardless, I feel like I'm barely even talking about politics anymore, and I've probably taken my tangent a bit too far already, so I will bow out now. Have fun, everyone~

Question: If the election magically became Clinton vs Cruz, with Johnson remaining as a third party candidate, who would you vote for? From my perspective, the problem with people like Rubio and Kasich is that despite their more moderate viewpoints, they would still appoint Supreme Court justices who would likely uphold discrimination. That means they would do damage outlasting their tenure as president just the same as Trump would. Further, though I'm not familiar on the specifics concerning whether those candidates have addressed this issue, I notice many of the Republican candidates seem trigger happy about the prospect of undoing Obama's executive orders, many of which protect people from discrimination. So there's this baseline standard of dehumanization that seems common among many Republican presidential candidates, even the ones who don't appear as horrible as the rest. Trust is important when it comes to friendship, and what I've learned from this election is that so many people seem completely oblivious that there's a relationship between what they do and what they say that trust becomes all but impossible. But I don't believe it's your goal to be discriminatory. I just think you might do it anyway in pursuit of some other objective, and that's something I find hard to forgive and harder to even want to forgive. It has always been the case that people who, in an ideal world, would want the best for each other end up fighting instead over what they believe is best. As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I would say the "binary" is actually more of a "trinary" (is that a real word?) of A. Support Trump B. Oppose Trump or C. Neither. If there were some viable way to oppose Trump without supporting Hillary that would be one thing, but I don't really think there is since Johnson and Stein obviously won't win. Before I suggested there was no effective difference between a vote for Johnson and not voting, and I don't think you've actually disagreed with me there yet during this conversation.That doesn't sit well with me because if too many people do that, they risk actually letting Trump squeak through with a victory. I'm irrational enough to believe that the moment I become complacent in thinking that he's lost is the moment he wins. I've already voted myself, so if I were a healthy person, I'd just stop thinking about this, but alas; we become the monsters the world makes us. I won't feel safe until this is all said and done. Then I'll start worrying about 2020. And it's with that thought that the whole question of "redemption" kind of blows up, because if it were Cruz on that ticket, a man who would be worse for me than even Trump, you would be supporting him, wouldn't you? He made the hilarious mistake of sacrificing his backbone on Trump's altar two weeks before Trump got tyrannosaurus rekt by 2005 Trump, but there will always be others like him. Others who might tempt you to make bigger sacrifices. In the end, as long as you're willing to take those kinds of measures, how can I ever view you as anything but a traitor waiting to happen? I've been burned too many times to take that sort of risk. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the only one so obsessed with consistency that I can't write off being so readily thrown aside. But I doubt it.

Oh, I'm not saying Hillary is any good. I'd sooner vote for a third term Obama if I could. But Hillary really isn't threatening to do much Trump wouldn't do even worse except to keep the status quo on abortion and take assault rifles off the streets. Under Trump, neither ISIS nor global warming would be the greatest threat to the U.S.... because the president would be the greatest threat to the U.S. The man has minimal self restraint. He's running for president and, judging by one of the original subjects of this topic, he can't even take being the butt of a joke. Imagine what he'd do if like Iran refused to settle on a deal he found acceptable, or if Kim Jong-un made one of his usual threats to attack us. To paraphrase (or maybe quote) Robert Downey Jr., "Do you really want to give the nuclear codes to a man whose signature move is firing things?" The political issues may just be the stem of the plant that trouble me, but you'll never kill that planet if you leave the stem intact, and probably not even if you don't. When I talk about brushing off attacks, I'm not just talking about words. I'm talking about physical attacks, both direct ones and indirect ones that come in the form of denying me fair treatment with regards to getting a job, medical coverage, etc. I've stopped doing things I used to enjoy because I feel I would literally be endangering my life if I didn't. If I must die again, it will be cleanly, and on my own terms. But as long as some of our leaders continue to validate the reasoning people would use against me and that behavior continues to be viewed as acceptable, that hostility will continue to exist, and my reasons for avoiding people will remain good ones. If a politician suggested reinstating racial segregation their career would be over, but if they suggest employing the same policies against LGBT people, plenty of their peers will jump on board. It's the people who vote for them despite their enthusiasm to brush aside the undesirables who enable them to keep acting that way. That's why I won't excuse those votes even on an individual level. They are the energy that flows through the stem and into the plants. (Not that I know how plants actually work...) If your heart tells you to feed the plant, then you can see why we'd have problems. In the short term, you have a choice to make. One 'evil' against the other. But in the long term, you have the opportunity to show your party their disdain for their bigotry. Tell them that you won't accept their unnecessary sacrifices. Force them to change. Or don't. But don't pretend which you choose doesn't say something about you. By the way, despite the many fears I face in my effort to be myself, I'm far from the worst off among my community. In four days, I'm getting Facial Femization Surgery. It will cost in the neighborhood of $40,000. I'm not a strong person. I've been putting up with people's bullshit for most of my life - most notably, with my own self hatred - and I'm nearing my limit. If I didn't have a supportive family and parents who are decent enough to actually help me, I can guarantee I'd have killed myself a long time ago. Even with their support, the thought is a constant presence in my mind. You may have no sympathy for the suicidal, but regardless of how you feel, this phenomenon extends well beyond me and will continue to do so as long as the current social attitudes are perpetuated. So keep in mind that opposing abortion isn't the only way to be pro-life.

I don't really see how voting Johnson does anything that couldn't be accomplished just by not voting at all. It's one less vote for Trump either way. That's certainly better than a vote for Trump, but not as good as a vote for Hillary. Taking the vote from Trump puts him at a disadvantage of 1 vote. Giving it to Clinton would put him at a disadvantage of 2. So, overall, your anti-Trump stand feels quite half-hearted, and like the Johnson vote is more a matter of you feeling obligated to vote than anything else. I'm pretty sure it's not a waste of my time, though. It seems more like a waste of yours. Is there anything worth more to me than legal equality? I must concede that there are many. But are they things that a small group of friends could provide? No, I don't think so. I would engage in almost any proverbial deal with the devil to have just fit in from the outset. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any suitable demons to bargain with. So I'm stuck in this horrid, icky world full of horrid, icky bigots, at least until I can muster the courage to free myself from it. I can't just hide in this tower forever, so I'll need to be able to stand up for myself. But I'm just one person. Without the right laws in place to protect me, what exactly do you expect me to do? Do you think words of comfort and encouragement will save me? No; words are wind. I wish it were as easy to just get by with everything stacked against me as you seem to think it is. But it's not, and having been dead as long as I have, I'm sick of lies and distractions. If you have a conscience of any value, no matter what you do, you'll be violating it one way or another. Best not to hesitate; decide what you can sacrifice, take aim, and pull the trigger. But if it's people rather than ideas that you execute, don't expect to be forgiven. Misfortune has its ways of spreading.