Please sign this petition, for the future of nonbinary and trans people of Finland

[Shamitako]

>don't bring religion into politics

So basically because you don't believe something other people who do believe it shouldn't allow it to affect their decisions? I hear this one a lot and find it endlessly presumptuous. It basically says that unless you agree with something, it needs to not affect you. This is why countries have democracies in the first place, because not everyone is going to agree on everything. Basing your beliefs on a religious foundation shouldn't immediately invalidate them

I'm certainly not going to tell you not to bring your lack of religion into politics

If I'm allowed to sound a bit redundant, just because I don't find something moral or correct doesn't make it my place to decide the laws on it (well, not totally, again, democracies are a thing for a reason. I'm not going to forgo voting, just not going to get upset if something doesn't go my way)

Disclaimer: Also, I know nothing of governments outside the US, so you'll have to forgive me if I seem a bit naive, since I am >_<

[Nan]

>don't bring religion into politics

So basically because you don't believe something other people who do believe it shouldn't allow it to affect their decisions? I hear this one a lot and find it endlessly presumptuous. It basically says that unless you agree with something, it needs to not affect you. This is why countries have democracies in the first place, because not everyone is going to agree on everything. Basing your beliefs on a religious foundation shouldn't immediately invalidate them

I'm certainly not going to tell you not to bring your lack of religion into politics

If I'm allowed to sound a bit redundant, just because I don't find something moral or correct doesn't make it my place to decide the laws on it (well, not totally, again, democracies are a thing for a reason. I'm not going to forgo voting, just not going to get upset if something doesn't go my way)

Disclaimer: Also, I know nothing of governments outside the US, so you'll have to forgive me if I seem a bit naive, since I am >_<

I think that if you believe in some religion and it makes you happy, that's a good thing and it's true that many democratic countries' law is based on some religion but religion =/= morals.

But I think you can't decide something because your religion says so, I mean Jews don't eat pork, shrimp and some other things but they don't want to deny other peoples right to eat those.. I can't really prove my point in English but I hope this is understandable.

It's okay that you only know the government of your country to be honest I only know how the government works in Nordic countries but my knowledge on other countries's government is really small haha.

[Shamitako]

There's a difference between doing or not doing something, and actually considering it wrong. If a country was predominantly Jewish and voted in a law that eating pork was illegal I'd find it silly, and if I lived there I would dislike not getting to eat pork, but I wouldn't get upset and say "you shouldn't bring you religious beliefs into this [because my nonreligious beliefs are clearly correct]"

And religion mayn't be the same thing as morals, but most people base their morals in their religion. There's a lot of "I don't care what your god says, I don't believe in them) To a lot of people, what their god says means everything about how they live their lives and form their opinions. So you can't really force them to take that out of their major decisions. I'd see that be like asking me to take my transgenderism out of my opinion on feminism and gaming (the biggest core feature of who I am, and a major issue with me right now that it happens to affect)

Disclaimer #2: Personally I'm mostly agnostic

[Nan]

There's a difference between doing or not doing something, and actually considering it wrong. If a country was predominantly Jewish and voted in a law that eating pork was illegal I'd find it silly, and if I lived there I would dislike not getting to eat pork, but I wouldn't get upset and say "you shouldn't bring you religious beliefs into this [because my nonreligious beliefs are clearly correct]"

And religion mayn't be the same thing as morals, but most people base their morals in their religion. There's a lot of "I don't care what your god says, I don't believe in them) To a lot of people, what their god says means everything about how they live their lives and form their opinions. So you can't really force them to take that out of their major decisions. I'd see that be like asking me to take my transgenderism out of my opinion on feminism and gaming (the biggest core feature of who I am, and a major issue with me right now that it happens to affect)

Disclaimer #2: Personally I'm mostly agnostic

That's true too. But I think that that every personal belief and faith are right to the people, but there should be compromises because that's the only way all or most of people are happy, or it's just me and on my personal experience compromises work, but in some cases you can't really make any compromises and that's the downside of this.

I understand your transgenderism and feminism + gaming part, personally I think feminism should include transwomen and there's a lot of things about gaming, some negative things and some positive things haha.

I'm not sure am I agnostic or atheist.. I mean there could be a god or multiple gods but if they did show up I would continue living my life as I have lived haha.

Signed it. I hate the idea honestly, but I'll still support it because where I come from, you have a God-given right to the freedom of expression

FRIGGIN 'MERICA. Over there, this probably wouldn't be as much of a problem. If we spent as little money as Finland did on the military, we would be the most prosperous nation bar none. But, then again our forefathers unintentionally signed up as the international policemen.

Edit: In America it's actually illegal to pass laws that favor a religion rather than morals, which is one reason why most of the world hates us. Screw the world when we got Wall Street and all that jazz.

I think everyone should have the right to be just be themselves if they're not hurting anyone.

[Mikzal]

Since I'm in that boat I'll be a good neighbor and sign right away

And everyone likes Finland

[Nan]

Since I'm in that boat I'll be a good neighbor and sign right away

And everyone likes Finland

Thank you neighbor. I actually read that the situation is the same there too.. I hope things get better there too and there's now 4369 signatures and I really hope this passes.. and I also wish that same-sex marriage is legalized in Finland too since Finland is the only Nordic country where same-sex marriage is illegal...

[Shamitako]

I'm just going to point back to the US Civil War, where trying to compromise ended up with a third of the country having their voices shoved in a hole (nowadays basically everyone sees slavery as evil, but that's largely because of how things went back then) Compromises aren't bad, but they tend to end badly when people have conflicting morals

And, um, there's no law against making religious based rules. There's a law preventing the government from restricting religion and vice versa (though people tend to misinterpret that) It's there because when we split off from Britain the king controlled the church and was using said control to manipulate the people through religion (similar to the catholic church in the [insert timeframe I kinda forgot here]) It has actually less to do with the church manipulating the government as it does the government manipulating the church

Think of religion like the press, we keep them separate from the government so the government can't tell people what to think (of course we have government based education instead, so yeah...)

And of course the church isn't allowed to pass laws, but that doesn't mean people can't suggest laws with a religious basis in mind. If the people wanted it, we could make it so eating pork was illegal (well not really, but it wouldn't be because of the whole "separation of church and state" thing)

Edited November 14, 2014 by KosherKitten

[Nan]

I'm just going to point back to the US Civil War, where trying to compromise ended up with a third of the country having their voices shoved in a hole (nowadays basically everyone sees slavery as evil, but that's largely because of how things went back then) Compromises aren't bad, but they tend to end badly when people have conflicting morals

And, um, there's no law against making religious based rules. There's a law preventing the government from restricting religion and vice versa (though people tend to misinterpret that) It's there because when we split off from Britain the king controlled the church and was using said control to manipulate the people through religion (similar to the catholic church in the [insert timeframe I kinda forgot here]) It has actually less to do with the church manipulating the government as it does the government manipulating the church

Think of religion like the press, we keep them separate from the government so the government can't tell people what to think (of course we have government based education instead, so yeah...)

And of course the church isn't allowed to pass laws, but that doesn't mean people can't suggest laws with a religious basis in mind. If the people wanted it, we could make it so eating pork was illegal (well not really, but it wouldn't be because of the whole "separation of church and state" thing)

I'm not really familiar with the US Civil War, the things I remember about it there was two sides, the North and the South, the North won am I correct ? Yeah that's true that people with conflicting morals tend to make that that compromises end up badly.

I think we should see religion as an evolving ans changing thing, since for example in the Old Testament there was things like you can kill your own children if they misbehave, nowadays most of people would consider that being morally wrong (but some people still kill their own children sadly) and also that most of the religions are really old and when for example when the Old Testament was written people viewed the world and many thing differently..I think religions should adapt their things that they fit in the modern society and I read from somewhere that the reason why the Old Testament bans eating pork was that there were some bacteria and a parasite called trichina that could kill you.

In Finland there's also a "separation of church and state" thing.

I find religions really fascinating haha.

[Amethyst]

EDIT: wait something just struck me... The petition mentions the fact that trans people shouldn't "be forced to be sterile" but... Aren't trans people sterile by definition? I mean, isn't the very nature of the operation to switch gender supposed to make you sterile as a side effect?

Um no, I am definitely not sterile (yet) I can still get a girl pregnant if I want (though admittedly I'm still legally male) Not all trans people get sex reassignment surgeries. There's plenty of trans people who could still very easily have kids

Obviously lower region surgeries are going to be a huge detriment in either direction, so that kind of goes without saying but regarding MtF transitions, anti-androgen medication has the side effect of sterilizing individuals. Anti-androgens are the core of MtF hormonal treatment, and while doctors advise that the sterilization is not reliable enough that it should be used in lieu of birth control, it is generally understood that a trans-female should not expect to be able to impregnate someone after beginning hormones. But because that's imperfect, and only applies to MtF rather than FtM, I believe there's still plenty of room for the Finnish government to work in.

Oh ok I must have misinterpreted the word "trans". Apologies...

You probably confused 'transsexual' with 'transgender'. An easy mistake...

transgender = someone who identifies outside their assigned-at-birth gender

transsexual = someone who is undergoing treatment to correct their body to their preferred gender

So all transsexual people are also transgender but not all transgender individuals are transsexual. Square-rectangle dealie.

[Shanco]

Signed - this has my total support.

I have a lot of respect for Amnesty International. They do fantastic work.

Edit for clarity: i didn't sign it because of Amnesty, mind you - this affects friends of friends, so I'll do what I can.

[AeroWraith]

Signed. I'll also send the link to a couple of my friends too. Hope this gets enough signatures.

[Shanco]

Signed. I'll also send the link to a couple of my friends too. Hope this gets enough signatures.

It's at just shy of 4600 right now. It's an easy victory imo.

[nevs]

signed it because i like to sign thing

well non-binary are still people

and i think it screw'd up that people want you to decide what you are

i have some close friends that are non-binary and they are allways shy to people

but they shouldnt and i dont care what others think of them bcuz they are human and they still treat them like aliens or something

this is IMO

and i will sent this to my friends as well

Edited November 15, 2014 by nevs

[Tomas Elliot]

As a german I'm sick and tired of being insulted as *that WW2 word* because of a past when I wasn't even born, and it is still held against me.

Fun fact: in the valley where I was born, if a stranger drops by talking in an unfamiliar language (which includes dialects from northern Italy), he/she is immediately identified as "german". My grandpa once got in an argument with a tourist from Denmark because "You germans stole all my hens during WW2!"...

To his excuse, I can say that my valley was literally cut in half by the Gothic Line, a defensive structure made by the Nazi army to try and stop the Allies who had invaded southern Italy and were advancing northward... So he really had a taste of what a war (a war with Nazis involved at that) is!

Edited November 15, 2014 by Tomas Elliot

[Shamitako]

Obviously lower region surgeries are going to be a huge detriment in either direction, so that kind of goes without saying but regarding MtF transitions, anti-androgen medication has the side effect of sterilizing individuals. Anti-androgens are the core of MtF hormonal treatment, and while doctors advise that the sterilization is not reliable enough that it should be used in lieu of birth control, it is generally understood that a trans-female should not expect to be able to impregnate someone after beginning hormones. But because that's imperfect, and only applies to MtF rather than FtM, I believe there's still plenty of room for the Finnish government to work in.

Oh, right, yes, I actually knew that (I've been looking into hormone therapy the last couple weeks) Actually that reminds me...

On a side note, the vocabulary choices in this post are exemplary and I love them

[Nan]

Okay the petition has now over 5000 signatures.. I want to thank everyone who supported this.. Now we need to wait when the parliament discusses about this and now I really hope this passes. I'll tell you the news when the parliament has decided about this. And I really hope I don't bring any bad news...

[Nan]

Been reading some of the past posts such as the one on abortion. Honestly, I don't support abortion unconditionally and openly. As a form of health care I love the idea, but as a form of birth control, I hate it. In America there was a case that went all the way to the Supreme Court: Roe vs. Wade I think in the 1970's or '80s.

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of Ms. Roe because they believed in pro-choice, because the baby was affecting Ms. Roe's health. Although each of our states can choose how they interpret the Court ruling because there is no direct law forbidding abortion in the United States, such as with narcotics (illegal drugs like cocaine).

If I were to make an abortion law, I would place a limit on how many abortions one woman can get in her lifetime, like say three, with exceptions to rape, incest, and if the baby affects the mother's health or vice-versa. Once, ok you learned your lesson, get back to living. Second time I would be suspicious why the lady wants a second abortion (assuming none of the exceptions occur).

The third time (assuming rape, incest, and health are not a factor) I would turn the lady away because:

1. She needs to learn there are consequences to unprotected sex.

2. She needs to learn to buy protection next time if she chooses to continue living that lifestyle of ho'ing around.

Edit: Back on topic, hope your Finnish Parliament isn't a bunch of assholes. In America again, it's really only two parties in control of the federal government, and a smaller third party that makes up like 3% of Congress.

I think there shouldn't be any limits on getting abortion, but I agree on that there is some women who are really reckless with their sex life but there's also a chance that even though she used some kind of birth control it can still fail.. but I really think that no one really wants to use abortions as birth control.. I mean that sounds stupid or it's just me.

Well not everyone in my parliament is asshole but the majority of them is sadly.

[Magus]

Glad to see the large support from the forum on this one, I also signed earlier yesterday. Even though I'm American and this really won't effect me any decent human with a some what open mind will realize that this just isn't acceptable. Also I have no idea how you your medical system works, but wouldn't all those surgeries cost your government a butt load of money?

[Nan]

Glad to see the large support from the forum on this one, I also signed earlier yesterday. Even though I'm American and this really won't effect me any decent human with a some what open mind will realize that this just isn't acceptable. Also I have no idea how you your medical system works, but wouldn't all those surgeries cost your government a butt load of money?

Well since we have free health care in Finland this does cost money for the government, but trans/nonbinary people only make 1% from the population, the population in Finland is 5,5 million and there's about 30 000 trans and nonbinary people in Finland our population is larger than the Sami (?) but still our government treats Sami people better than trans/nonbinary people... But to be honest self caused things like obesity (in some cases) and for example smoking cost more... but since we have two kinds of healthcare, free and the healthcare that costs money but the one of the problems is that none of those don't really like to treat trans and nonbinary people.

To put this short treating "normal" things cost more for our government than treating trans and nonbinary people.

[Maelstrom]

Question: does it matter if we digitally sign this petition and don't live in Finland?

[Nan]

Question: does it matter if we digitally sign this petition and don't live in Finland?

Well there's no information about that foreigners can't sign this and all signatures have been valid, so I think non-Finnish people can sign this even though they don't live in Finland.

[Maelstrom]

Okay. I was worried about the distinction between Finlanders fighting to change their government and the international community pressuring Finland to change its policies. It's one thing for a country's people to attempt to change their home/country. It's a political gray area when other countries try to influence change in other countries. After so many decades of America, World's Police, I am wary about the applications of power and its implications.

[Nan]

Okay. I was worried about the distinction between Finlanders fighting to change their government and the international community pressuring Finland to change its policies. It's one thing for a country's people to attempt to change their home/country. It's a political gray area when other countries try to influence change in other countries. After so many decades of America, World's Police, I am wary about the applications of power and its implications.

I understand your worry. But I kind of hate that some Finnish politicians say that we can't have basic human rights because other countries (mostly Russia) wouldn't like it....

[Azeria]

Signed because am not about to let people to get discriminated for being transexual/gender.

[Nan]

Signed because am not about to let people to get discriminated for being transexual/gender.

Thank you.