Suspect Suggestion Thread

[Kamina]

Is there something that you think should be changed about ladder? Like pokemon who should be moved to a different tier. If so, post here. For every suggestion, please give solid reasoning behind why you think so. Right now reborn is following smogon tiers.

[Tomas Elliot]

Personally I am rather fine with the current Smogon tiers... I have been playing prevalently UU since ORAS came out, and there are maybe a couple adjustments that tier could use, for example looking into Damp Rock (Mega Swampert, Kabutops and Kingdra being free to do whatever the hell they want for 6 turns is... Not good) and a couple of Mega Stones (Sceptilite anyone?) but seriously, nothing particularly tier-breaking in general, these are just minor worries of mine. All in all, I like Smogon tiers the way they are right now.

[Reignited'Light]

Greninja.

It has a whole bunch of coverage in this new meta with its recently newfound Gunk Shot. Now no Clefable is a counter to it at all.
Previously in the XY meta, Fairy types such as Azumarill and the before mentioned Clefable have easily stopped Greninja. This is however not the case anymore.

1. It has a whole bunch of different moves ever since ORAS has been around. Gunk Shot and Low kick are really devastating. No dumb pink blobs or Fairys are safe.

2. Its coverage is too damn high. It has Hidden Power Fire to hit Ferrothorn, Ice Beam for the Dragons, and much more. Many people run the standard...

Greninja @ Life Orb

Ability: Protean

EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe

Hasty Nature

- Gunk Shot

- Hydro Pump

- Ice Beam

- Hidden Power [Fire]

While that is the most common set that is used, it has so much potential making it a very broken threat in this new meta. It can be a Spikes lead, or even a physical attacking set with U-turn, low kick, waterfall, and acrobatics.

3. It's just so damn unpredictable. Normally, it would be so easy to figure out what a opponent will do when you see Greninja. However, that is not the case now.
You can run checks for Greninja like Empoleon, Tentacruel, but you need to scout the Greninja set before you send in the respectable check.

Honestly, please ban Greninja to Ubers. Most teams are based on Greninja now. It forces people to have to run a revenge killer for it. Which seems very unhealthy for the meta imo.

[Jelly]

even after scouting the set, most of it's checks and "counters" get 2/3hkod if it has the right coverage move. empoleon and lickilicky are great checks if it lacks the appropriate coverage. but the thing is that you have to scout for the coverage move which in turn will result in another member of your team being sac'd or chunked to hell. there are a variety of sets one can run on gren too. LO/scarf/sub+sitrus+acro/spikes to name a few. you can even run sets to bluff other sets like this

Greninja (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn

scarf set that can easily bluff a physical scarf set if played correctly. i say we suspect it.

[Deleted User]

Gunk Shot Calcs vs Fairies

44 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 296-351 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

44 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

44 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 351-416 (94.1 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

44 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 398-471 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir doesn't even need a Calc - It'd dead and gone probably twice over.

Viable Moves for Greninja

Water - Hydro Pump, Scald, Waterfall, Water Shuriken (Priority)

Dark - Dark Pulse, Night Slash

Ice - Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Blizzard

Grass - Grass Knot

Psychic - Extrasensory

Bug - U-Turn (also provides Pivot)

Ghost - Shadow Sneak (Priority)

Fighting - Low Kick, Power-Up Punch

Rock - Rock Slide

Flying - Aerial Ace, Acrobatics (Loses Life Orb to use to full potential)

Ground - Spikes (Entry Hazard)

Hidden Powers (Fire, Electric, or anything else)

Very unpredictable.

[Shadow Tack]

Add power up Punch to fighting jericho, i've run so many physical greninjas it's insane

[Jelly]

he did specify "viable" if im not mistaken

[Deleted User]

he did specify "viable" if im not mistaken

It is 'Viable', but Optimal? Not really. It is handy to get that +1, but it'd give away the fact that it's a physical ninja and a counter could likely be determined from such.

[Cowtao]

Let's talk about Greninja

It got a boon with the addition of Gunk Shot from the move tutors. It has users resort to very sub-par checks such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, just to try and counter it. The fact that a lot of moves he has are very usable with Protean giving extra STAB, it's very dangerous. Essentially Greninja can fit into almost any team thanks to Protean not restricting it's typing.

People could argue that Priority kills frog and...It's true it does. Breloom and Talonflame are very popular among showdown users and are very reliable for clearing out Greninja. There is also a major 4 itis problem. With the set that Skitty gave above, you still run the risk of getting stopped by M-Venusaur, M-Ampharos, Chansey, Porygon2, Defensive Charizard-X, Gyarados, and Rotom-W. Worst, Rotom-W is extremely popular and has momentum with Volt Switch or can punish switch-ins with Will-O-Wisp. The meta has already been shifted with Greninja and Gunk Shot only detracts a few things now. Does it make it more unpredictable? Yes. Does it make it an automatic win-condition for every match? Hell no.

There is a bit more into Greninja such as the use of Water Shuriken and other unique tricks he has but, tbh, that has never really been a problem here. Most people are running the linear Special Greninja or occasionally the U-Turn set. That's two sets folks with a variable that may or may not matter at all. You might compare this to Genesect, but here is another argument towards that.

See, Genesect was a problem because Genesect could pull off virtually anything without a problem thanks to it's amazing stats and Download. It also wasn't worn down by Priority, nor was it easily stopped. The only thing that could downright defeat Genesect 1-1 was Heatran, and then you could just U-Turn out into Landorus-T or something. Greninja does not have this luxury as his physical moveset pales in comparison to his special moveset. Using a Physical Greninja would seem downright gimmicky as you don't really get much power into it. Even with STAB Low Kick, you STILL struggle to 3HKO Chansey w/Eviolite.

Not to say that Greninja can't do that either as, hello item. But that's only a very rare variable compared to a massive constant to a meta game. I'm personally going to be against banning Greninja.

[Sonikku]

I am fine with banning this thing. Keep in mind that when it attempts to deal with Clefable with Gunk Shot, it will also resist Moonblast. Greninja will do fine in Ubers, this I think we all know.

It is literally unstoppable, run teammates such as Scarf/Specs Magnezone, and Assault Vest Azumarill. Pretty good checks to Greninja are Noivern and Empoleon, these two pokemon check them very well. And if you want an even bigger advantage, when you are afraid you might get outspeed by a scarf user, just run a scarf yourself. Boom. Noivern evaporated.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Sonikku

[DJ Mewdeon ft Dan Punk]

Let's talk about Greninja

It got a boon with the addition of Gunk Shot from the move tutors. It has users resort to very sub-par checks such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, just to try and counter it. The fact that a lot of moves he has are very usable with Protean giving extra STAB, it's very dangerous. Essentially Greninja can fit into almost any team thanks to Protean not restricting it's typing.

People could argue that Priority kills frog and...It's true it does. Breloom and Talonflame are very popular among showdown users and are very reliable for clearing out Greninja. There is also a major 4 itis problem. With the set that Skitty gave above, you still run the risk of getting stopped by M-Venusaur, M-Ampharos, Chansey, Porygon2, Defensive Charizard-X, Gyarados, and Rotom-W. Worst, Rotom-W is extremely popular and has momentum with Volt Switch or can punish switch-ins with Will-O-Wisp. The meta has already been shifted with Greninja and Gunk Shot only detracts a few things now. Does it make it more unpredictable? Yes. Does it make it an automatic win-condition for every match? Hell no.

There is a bit more into Greninja such as the use of Water Shuriken and other unique tricks he has but, tbh, that has never really been a problem here. Most people are running the linear Special Greninja or occasionally the U-Turn set. That's two sets folks with a variable that may or may not matter at all. You might compare this to Genesect, but here is another argument towards that.

See, Genesect was a problem because Genesect could pull off virtually anything without a problem thanks to it's amazing stats and Download. It also wasn't worn down by Priority, nor was it easily stopped. The only thing that could downright defeat Genesect 1-1 was Heatran, and then you could just U-Turn out into Landorus-T or something. Greninja does not have this luxury as his physical moveset pales in comparison to his special moveset. Using a Physical Greninja would seem downright gimmicky as you don't really get much power into it. Even with STAB Low Kick, you STILL struggle to 3HKO Chansey w/Eviolite.

Not to say that Greninja can't do that either as, hello item. But that's only a very rare variable compared to a massive constant to a meta game. I'm personally going to be against banning Greninja.

There's a few contestable points here. I'm going to briefly try to touch on a few of them.

I can't say I agree with Breloom being a reliable way to beat Greninja with priority, especially with Gunk Shot being widespread and then Protean making Greninja resist both of Breloom's STABs.

Resisted hit:

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 68-81 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 94.8% chance to 4HKO

Neutral hit:

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 136-162 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

... but unless you can maintain a sash,

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 390-460 (149.4 - 176.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

you still get cleaned with almost no investment.

Mega Ampharos is really rare, and even a specially defensive set gets 2hko'd by the spread skitty posted:

212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 218-257 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Using a physically-based mixed 'ninja, you can deal with Chansey with a bit of hazard damage.

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42 - 49.8%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (or poison damage)

Life Orb and Protean amount to almost Adaptability levels of damage (1.95x vs 2x if I didn't math wrong) which is enormous, plus it has a deep pool of moves to choose from when team building. Sure it can only choose four, but isn't that on the Greninja user to give it teammates to cover for that? There's the ever-present issue that until you've seen its moves, it's really tricky to know what it can use and there's the potential that it could be carrying something that could heavily hit almost all of the Pokemon you listed barring maybe Pory2 and Gyarados (who runs HP Elec anyway, honestly).

Personally I'm still on the fence about it. I think it's definitely worth the time to suspect test it but I'm not sure about which way it'll go atm.

[Etesian]

Compared to my past experiences, my "easy" way to deal with it is to let whatever's out at the moment die and revenge Scarf. Should you try to switch in a counter rather than sending it out after something faints, it's gonna get hit twice before doing anything, unless it's a Scarfer. Something like AV Snorlax also worked for me, but now that a physical set is getting even more viable...

I'm for a ban since it's basically guaranteed to get a kill whenever it switches in on something unless it's brought out against a wall, but how frequently does that happen?

I'd say ban.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I don;t know personally, Greninja is very much a glue mon, at least the way I see it, it is something that holds a team together, but maybe that is the problem, that it can shore up mostly any weakness in a team that exists. It should probably be looked at for sure, and if banned, I wouldn't gripe too much.

However, it should be noted how the meta changes without it being around as well. See how much diversity in teams comes back, or if people just find something new to jam in the empty hole left by Greninja. I think that is just as important as whether or not to ship him off to Ubers.

[Sonikku]

KK, getting back on topic here, look at all of the pokemon in OU. There is a minimal amount that can wall or deal with Greninja. Gyarados, Protect Mega Manectric.

It might become the next Talonflame. The thing that determines if a pokemon can be viable or not.

hmm It kinda already is its own Talon if that makes sense.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Sonikku

[Deleted User]

However, it should be noted how the meta changes without it being around as well. See how much diversity in teams comes back, or if people just find something new to jam in the empty hole left by Greninja. I think that is just as important as whether or not to ship him off to Ubers.

This. I think needs to be put more into consideration though. Would it make Fairy types far more threatening as a whole to the point where most teams have at least one? Gathered they wouldn't be AS common as Greninja, but they'll certainly be on the up trend, the question is, how much?

[DJ Mewdeon ft Dan Punk]

This. I think needs to be put more into consideration though. Would it make Fairy types far more threatening as a whole to the point where most teams have at least one? Gathered they wouldn't be AS common as Greninja, but they'll certainly be on the up trend, the question is, how much?

I don't think it would be too much, what with megas like Metagross still prominent in the metagame.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Basically it must be asked, what will replace Greninja if he is gone? Will they find another Swiss Army Knife poke that just fits that slot? ((I doubt it, Protean is what gives Greninja his power, since he has infinite stab potential.)). Will Fairies become rampant? The problem is, that is a hard question to figure out without hard data. Like, how can we possibly know while Greninja is still cemented within the meta?

And yea Dan that is a good point, The priority STAB, or just hitting power of Mega Gross puts much more pressure in to use a fairy or not, but then does that make Mega Gross overly popular because of that? There is a lot to ask. ((Mega Gross is probably easier to deal with than Greninja, but still polarization is not very good, even if the mon can be dealt with, it effects teams regardless.)). Basically, we got to think of what possible outcomes could happen due to the removal of Greninja, and that is a good place to start with figuring out if it is a good idea.

[Shamitako]

It might become the next Talonflame. The thing that determines if a pokemon can be viable or not.

I still don't think Talon was ever as good as its usage levels made it out to be, but I disgress

I'm not really that competative a player, mostly since I hate running HO teams and the XY meta is pretty much all about HO, but I honestly can't argue that there's a powerful argument to put Greninja in Ubers

At the same time, it's kinda the the OP Pokemon of the week. There's always one of those about, it's that thing everyone runs because its relatively easy to use and win with. Generally it's also not all that hard to beat if you play right. I think we should wait to ban it until the meta stabilizes a bit, see if it's acvtually as insanely powerful as it comes off right now or if the meta will shift to accomadate it's apparent OPness. If it gets rushed into Ubers it likely won't fall back down until next gen, whether it actually deserves Ubers or not

In the end though, I've never lost to a Greninja that wasn't owned by someone who was already better than me. If you're actually better than your opponent, you can beat them, Greninja or no. And seeing as skill is what matters in competative battling, I don't see any issue with Greninja remaining in OU

EDIT: To those who play LoL: Greninja is Pokemon's Teemo right now

Edited December 14, 2014 by KosherKitten

[Bluewolf]

Well essentially the only ways to take it down are by somehow surviving a hit from it, Chansey/Blissey, mach punch, or Talonflame. Why? Well its speed is very high, it can be used as a physical attacker as well as a special attacker, it has coverage versitile to the point where anything you throw out is going to get hurt (possible exceptions with Chansey/Blissey), it can change types freely so good luck gambling on type coverage. You could argue that defenses are very low, which is absolutely true. Many OU attackers could OHKO it, that is, if they get a chance to attack. Plus carrying around a poke on your team strictly to counter/check another ONE is a bit impractical.

So yeah, there's my arguement. Although I didn't add any calcs so make sure yourself.

[Ikaru]

All irrelevant posts were removed; those of you actually discussing the subject, continue.

[slant]

We can also think about unbanning Genesect. The reason why it was originally banned was because it just hit too hard in the old metagame with its combination of high special attack and the possibility of nabbing its download boost. But in ORAS there are just too many things that already fill that niche that are not banned, i.e. Greninja so I don't see the point of keeping the ban on Genesect.

[Felix]

Basically it must be asked, what will replace Greninja if he is gone? Will they find another Swiss Army Knife poke that just fits that slot?

You will never find another pokemon that special like Greninja.

Anyways, I really think it should be shipped to ubers. With any combination of the given moves, Greninja still attains great power and coverage to batter the opposition with.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Felix, you did see the lin like right under that that said the exact thing you just said right? Also, you can't ban certain moves sets, you have to ban the mon, there is no way to regulate what moves someone puts on it.

[krim]

Felix, you did see the lin like right under that that said the exact thing you just said right? Also, you can't ban certain moves sets, you have to ban the mon, there is no way to regulate what moves someone puts on it.

Or you could ban the move. I.E Swagger, but I feel like that's more of a last resort thing.

[Chevaleresse]

I can think of one reliable check to it, which is Timid Jolteon, and the less reliable but still decent 252 HP / 252 Attack WP Dragonite, (Espeed ohkos every time at +3, which is achieved by dancing on the turn you get Ice Beamed) but otherwise you're into gimmicks like Metal Burst Aggron and the like.

EDIT: The first two are also usable outside of killing the ninja frog (Jolteon making a surprisingly good Lando-T check with prediction, for example)