Suspect Suggestion Thread

[Deleted User]

Except Multiscale being broken + Ice Beam = GG

[Chevaleresse]

Except Multiscale being broken + Ice Beam = GG

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't say it was totally reliable. Hazards are something to keep in mind when running Dnite anyways, so. . .

[Tomas Elliot]

I see many people here are making the same mistake I saw on PO forum in the suspect discussion about Greninja: you are describing situations in which it would be broken, assuming that it is safely in, at full health, and with the right move ready to use.

My question is: how many chances are there of it actually happening? Greninja is very weak defensively, so it cannot really switch into anything. You might argue that a clever use of Volt-Turn can allow you to give it a free switch in, but then I could argue that the opponent could do the same to bring in something that can obliterate the frog in a one-on-one situation, like Talonflame.

Also, the only item that is really viable on Greninja is Life Orb: factor in the passive damage taken from the omnipresent entry hazards, and you see that its survivability will be very very very very low. So basically what we are here is a Pokemon whose role has always been, since its first introduction, to just hit as hard as it can untill it goes down, which means that its contribution to the overall strategy of the team is minimal (basically, you just pray to kill a crucial Pokemon with it, nothing more, nothing less): it cannot sweep entire teams by itself and it cannot provide some kind of vital support to other memebers.

With this, I am not necessarily saying that Greninja isn't broken, and that it shouldn't be banned: I am simply saying that failing to keep such points into consideration means doing theorymon talk, instead of an actual discussion on the state of the metagame. On this regard, I find it kinda silly that people would highlight how dangerous Greninja is when using Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and the likes, because it had those moves in the previous format as well, and nobody ever found it to be broken. All there's new about Greninja's role in OU is Gunk Shot: I personally think that's simply not enough to ban a Pokemon, and that the whole threat Greninja would pose is being overhyped by people who make calculations about its 6/7 viable moves and see nothing can resist them all. But the fact of the matter is that a Pokemon only has 4 moves when it comes to actual battling, which means that Greninja will always lack something when you face it. Which in turn means that you'll probably have a Pokemon in your team that can take advantage from that something. In other words: Greninja has no dedicated counters right now, but please let's shed off this Gen 4 mentality according to which anything that has no dedicated counter is broken. In today's fast, hard-hitting and unpredictable meta, the very definition of the word "broken" needs to be reworked.

I just hope that people, instead of doing like on PO and immediately being "LOL WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FROG IS BROKEN I HAVE CALCS TO PROVE IT" will actually take two minutes to give some thought to this aspect of the problem. Personally, all I know is that I have faced Greninja in OU many times since ORAS came out, and I always had a way to deal with it, simply by taking advantage of the fact that it NEVER had perfect coverage. Because, I repeat, Greninja has 6/7 moves that grant it perfect coverage, but you can only bring 4 in battle.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

as I said previously Greninja is what I call a glue pokemon. You use him to patch up a spot that has a big weakness or hole with his coverage. He is meant to be a swiss army knife you throw at something that you otherwise wouldn't have a spot for. Greninja can fit into literally every team because Protean allows him to basically be any type. ((and Gren takes chunks from even resisted hits.)) Gren is made to be a problem solver who breaks down threats etc, for your sweeper. This is the focal point of the argument. I can usually figure out what a Gren is trying to do by the team members around it. He will clearly pack coverage they are sorely lacking, so like if they need a solid thing to take out Bisharp, it will have Low Kick. If they need it for the Fairies, it will have Gunk Shot etc... Basically Gren is too good a glue I think, he used to have more holes and was a bit harder to stick into teams, however does his new found coverage make him broken? I don;t know. What I do know, is Gren is made to synergize with his team so it seems like he is pretty o.p. in some situations, but they set him up in a way that will be useful for him.

ANd Tomas, you point the he dies to most any hit is good, but how often does a Gren Switch in? Rarely deos it happen, People usually try for knock out switchs. ((free switch afer something dies on their side, this is just for clarity's sake.)) or after a Slow U-Turn/Slow VOlt Switch. ((a.k.a one of those moves coming from a mon that is deliberately slow so that it tanks a hit before the switch.)) So, it is safe to assume, a good player would never switch a Gren in at a bad spot, since there is no reason too. His goal is to come out and dish a bunch of damage, kinda like a Revenge Killer.

in closing, Greninja is not a pokemon you build a team around, he is something you stick in afterwards as, oh it would be helpful to have this. He is a tool in the toolbox, and his simplicity is especially why this is true. Like a tool, he has a simple purpose, click this button, get rid of something/do a bunch of damage to something. While his moveset might be unpredictable as so many say, it really isn't, you can sometimes at a glance tell what it is there for if you are looking for it in the way their team is built. You should be able to see where they nailed a bunch of boards over something glaring. He is effective at what he does, as he is the ONLY one who does it the way he deos it. He is glue. And I am betting most of the time and on msot teams there is something to deal with the frog. Strong priority or just a solid hit are usually enough to do him in, as he is one of the most frail things in the meta.

((also, did anyone note AV Conk as a check? He actually does it extremely well. Since Gren has to risk the Mach Punch, and even if he does, and you go for Drain Punch [or you don;t carry Mach Punch for some reason.] instead cause you predicted a switch, you still whomp him hard and get most of what you lost back.))

We have to look at everything before we decide, including what could happen if Greninja leaves the meta. Is there anything he threatens so much it isn't run? ((other than just Fairies in general as they fear the Gunk Shot. But they are still run despite this.)). WHat options would teams using him now use that they don;t have the frog? ((this is the most important question, because, while I hihgly doubt it, could just cause something else to just take his place.)). The effect on the meta needs to be discussed to an extent, but I don;t feel I am the one to do it. I don;t knwo enouhg of the ins and outs to fiugre out all the if and buts, not to mention playing the what if game can get dangerous without REAL data. Maybe some should test it without the Frog, see the limits of what can be done without him running around.

[Shamitako]

assuming that it is safely in, at full health, and with the right move ready to use.

how many chances are there of it actually happening?

Lead with it ^^

I took out four of my opponents Pokemon, including their Breloom, yesterday leading with my Specs Greninja using Hydro Pump. That was mostly because they didn't perform all that well, but I still had Greninja ready and at full health owo

You do raise a lot of really good points that I'm forced to agree with. Thus I do believe I have shifted fully on to the side of no ban

I especially have to agree with the point made that its only new trick is Gunk Shot

it can be used as a physical attacker as well as a special attacker

Yes Greninja can be run physical, but is that optimal? And would there be something else that would fill that slot better? Physical Greninja is easily outclassed by other physical sweeperrs and relies on your opponent expecting it to be special to get a KO. Once its revealed that it's physical, it can't do nearly as much as a special variant could

I mean, Greninja can run Hyper Beam, and it could probably use that tyo surprise something and get a KO, that doesn't mean Hyper Beam is optimal

Obviously physical Ninja is more viable that Hyper Beam, but this whole discussion has focused heavily on what Greninja is capable of. I harken back to the above post by saying that your not going to have every Greninja moveset on one Greninja, and running a physical one means you can't run a special one

TL;DR Physical Ninja isn'rt something to be ignored, but it's also not a massive game-changing threat and having the ability to run it doesn't mean it will ever be a threat at all

EDIT: Wow Huk, I was debating mentioning that you can tell what set Greninja probably has by the teammates around it XD

Edited December 14, 2014 by KosherKitten

[Kamina]

In this thread we are trying to find out different people's opinion on what Pokemon they think should be suspected. If you think Greninja should be suspected, post why or whynot. We are not discussing if it should be banned or not.

[Shamitako]

Then you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but doesn't being suspect mean it's being evaluated for whether or not it should be banned?

[Jelly]

even if this is a smogon thread, it explains it i guess http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue6/suspect

[DJ Mewdeon ft Dan Punk]

Then you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but doesn't being suspect mean it's being evaluated for whether or not it should be banned?

It does, but the point of this thread is just to seek out potential suspects to test -- the idea is that the suspect testing (discussion and the decision on whether or not to ban it from its current respective tier) happens in a different thread, at a later date, etc. The discussion about Greninja has been healthy so far, but this isn't the "Greninja Suspect Test," if that makes sense.

[Tomas Elliot]

In this thread we are trying to find out different people's opinion on what Pokemon they think should be suspected. If you think Greninja should be suspected, post why or whynot. We are not discussing if it should be banned or not.

One could argue that the points we are providing in favor or against Greninja work for both a suspect discussion and a ban discussion

But seriously, I personally believe that Greninja is not a pivotal player in the current meta: in other words, I think it is not capable of single-handedly changing the way the metagame works. If a suspect test or a temporary ban can prove just that, I am all for it.

However, I would like to take a minute to address this point made by Hukuna:

ANd Tomas, you point the he dies to most any hit is good, but how often does a Gren Switch in? Rarely deos it happen, People usually try for knock out switchs. ((free switch afer something dies on their side, this is just for clarity's sake.)) or after a Slow U-Turn/Slow VOlt Switch. ((a.k.a one of those moves coming from a mon that is deliberately slow so that it tanks a hit before the switch.)) So, it is safe to assume, a good player would never switch a Gren in at a bad spot, since there is no reason too. His goal is to come out and dish a bunch of damage, kinda like a Revenge Killer.

This actually proves my point: if you send it in after another Pokemon of yours has died, then it is going to even the situation by killing an opponent's Pokemon, or AT MOST to score one extra kill. In other words, it will net you either a +0 or at most a +1, how is this enough to consider a Pokemon broken, when there are things in the tier that are not considered broken and can easily score a +2 or even a +3 ?

And as I said previously, it is true that a slow Volt Switch (I know full well how such strategy works, I regularly use it with Forretress in my UU team ) can give Greninja a free switch in, but it is also true that the opponent can do the same to bring in something that beats Greninja one on one. So again, I am not saying that your arguments are invalid, I am saying that they do not prove in a certain way that Greninja is broken.

I can only repeat what I said previously: I strongly believe that Greninja cannot shape the metagame on its own, and if in order to prove it we need to ban it for a week, and see that the metagame doesn't change at all (or changes for the worse, with things it checks suddenly becoming prominent) in its absence, then I am all for it.

[Jelly]

if you don't prepare for greninja (2-3 checks/"counters") you're going to lose to it. same way with mega mence, mega mawile, mega lucario, blaziken, etc. it's just too ridiculous and it's a tossup as to whether it carries x coverage move. it'll be suspected. and i'm predicting already that it will be banned.

[Azeria]

And on that day,the tiny frog everyone was confused over turned into Smogon Frog,Uber Class Starter!

[DJ Mewdeon ft Dan Punk]

One could argue that the points we are providing in favor or against Greninja work for both a suspect discussion and a ban discussion

and i'm predicting already that it will be banned.

One could argue a lot of things, but when an auth is specifically telling you to drop discussion inappropriate for this thread (ie discussion in regards to whether or not Greninja should be banned) it would behoove you to do so.

[Reignited'Light]

So far, the possibilities are...

1. Suspecting Greninja to go to Ubers.

2. Suspecting Genesect back to OU.

I don't see anything else that can possibly be moved/changed around. Everything looks fine to me. Any other thoughts?

[Kamina]

I feel like if greninja is not a problem in this meta that we could also unban deo-s. Imo it is less broken than greninja as deo-s does not have a diverse movepool plus its offensive stats are no where as good as protean greninja. suspect deo-s as well.

[Chevaleresse]

May as well suspect test our current Ubers first. Since we started discussion on it earlier, why not test Genesect?

[Deleted User]

May as well suspect test our current Ubers first. Since we started discussion on it earlier, why not test Genesect?

I personally have no interest in bringing back Genesect, let it stay in that pit of hell.

[Azeria]

What you have againt Techno Bug HUH?

Seriously though keep that thing away pls.

[Chevaleresse]

I personally have no interest in bringing back Genesect, let it stay in that pit of hell.

I hate it too, don't get me wrong. It won't hurt to reaffirm the ban, though.

[Azeria]

I hate it too, don't get me wrong. It won't hurt to reaffirm the ban, though.

Fair enough

[Reignited'Light]

Regular Blaziken shifting from Ubers to OU.

Tbh, I don't know why this thing is Ubers. There are so many checks in this meta such as Talonflame, Slowbro and Mega Blowbro, Dragonite, Latias and Latios.

Blaziken generally carry Protect, Swords Dance, High Jump Kick, and Flare Blitz. Both of its stab attacks can not hurt the opposing pokemon I had mention. If Blaziken uses a random coverage move such as Rock Slide or Shadow Claw perhaps, it will lack the power that can make OHKOs and turn them into 2HKO/3HKO.

Now, not saying Blaziken is weak. But it's just that so many things are available are efficient Blaziken checks/counters.

Suspect regular Blaziken to OU.

[Chevaleresse]

so we've got

suspects to OU from Ubers

-Genesect

-Deoxys-S

-Blaziken

suspects to Ubers from OU

-Greninja

any lower-tier suspects?

[Reignited'Light]

I think Deoxys Defense from Ubers to OU as well

[Deleted User]

I think Deoxys Defense from Ubers to OU as well

I 2nd this one. There are plenty of checks to it, and it hates Toxic.

[Cowtao]

I don't agree with Deo Twins coming back.

Both are way too versatile and have formed a very basic and boring meta around it in the time that it was around in Reborn and in Showdown in general. Also since we lost a strong check like Aegislash, it further promotes a HO game-style that can be very easy to use and also brings back a very annoying core, DeoSharp. Despite the gain of Magic Bounce Sableye and Diancie, Diancie hates Bisharp while Sableye can be outdueled by other partners DeoSharp usually has like Landorus-I, Azumarill, Talonflame, and Mega Zard-X.

If we are test anything first, it has to be Greninja. If we have to have a basis of what's going to be considered powerful or not, we must test Greninja's position as broken or not.