Suspect Suggestion Thread

[Deleted User]

If I had it my way, I'd potentially bring back Aegislash.

[Shamitako]

Aegislash is an Uber? But Aegislash isn't even that good O_o It was just overhyped and overused... (Like Talon and Greninja... >_>) Also easily predicted and weak AF to status

I thought it just wasn't getting used because of the whole thing with it being broken on PO or something

Anyways, I'm with Tao, if stuff is getting tested, Greninja first

[Chevaleresse]

oh yeah, aegi to OU would be a good idea. . . though I didn't think we banned it in the first place.

Checks using standard sets include Mandibuzz (Foul Play, bulk, can phaze), Bisharp (Dies to Sacred Sword, but doesn't care about King's Shield and outspeeds Aegislash), Sableye (Will-O-Wisp won't set off a Weakness Policy), Skarmory (phazing), Support Talonflame, possibly even Gengar.

[Sonikku]

Why was Aegis even banned? A new form of protect that only protects from half of all moves? Just bring out Sableye and burn it. If special bring out a Bisharp and spam Sucker Punch if you fear the Sacred Sword.

With the whole Deoxys thing, Sableye can completly shut them down. I used to run Toxic on it, which isn't bad. I don't mind Deoxys Speed/Defense leaving Ubers. When did this even happen *-*

[Shamitako]

Pretty much anything faster with SE stab can kill Aegislash if the player predicts well

And Sonikku, one counter doesn't mean they can't be an issue. If Sableye is the only thing that doesn't have an issue with them, then they'll still terrorize any team without Sableye

Personally I have no issue with Deo-D coming down, it's slow enough that you can pretty easily Taunt it to shut it down. It can be a nuisance with how hard it is to kill, and it might actually be a bit OP on stall teams, but I can see it fitting into the current OU fairly fine

Deo-S is tougher. It's only real weakness is priority. And as common as priority is, it's still able to wreck havoc on the lead meta. Though the lead meta is less important now that we have team preview. It can also run some pretty devestating offensive sets, but I don't see those as being quite as hard to take out if you play right

Either one is a bit iffy, but both are at least worth a look imo

[Chevaleresse]

Stuff being "iffy" is the reason for suspect tests, no?

[Guest]

Deo-S is tougher. It's only real weakness is priority. And as common as priority is, it's still able to wreck havoc on the lead meta. Though the lead meta is less important now that we have team preview. It can also run some pretty devestating offensive sets, but I don't see those as being quite as hard to take out if you play right

pls explain what lead meta is. many people i associate with do not understand the terminology that you're using

Pretty much anything faster with SE stab can kill Aegislash if the player predicts well

??????

what does that even mean

"pretty much anything faster with SE STAB can kill Aegislash if the player predicts well"

?????

so what is the argument that you are trying to state here because im not following you at all?

what is there to predict? form 1 and form 2

can you please elaborate and clarify your argument?

[Lord Bagel]

You guys keep saying anything with an SE move will kill an aegi but the main problem is the thing has tons of defense and offense if used well, not to mention lots of versatility. After a kings shield aegi's defenses will go way up and it will be able to take those SE hits you believe in so much. After that it will turn back unto an offensive monster and take it out. Like all pokemon it has some counters but the problem is if it's not a super specific counter aegislash can destroy about anything.

[Shamitako]

Yes Sarcy, that's exactly what I was trying to say

The lead meta is about which Pokemon you send out first. If I lead with a (non-mega)Sableye but you lead with a Talonflame, you're going to get all the early gamer momentum because Talon can pretty easily kill Sableye/force a switch. Or maybe I'm running a Dual Screens Espeon as an anti-lead and you sent out Skarmory to set down hazards. Neither of us is going to kill the other, but I'll get the momentum by getting my screens set up

It's not such a major thing now since team preview pretty well nullifies dedicated leads

And to beat Aegislash all you have to do is predict when it's going to shield and when it's going to attack and play accordingly. It's really not as scary as people make it out to be. Or at least I've never had trouble with it, and if you'd seen some of my teams from when it was big, you'd know that I never carried a proper counter for it (My teams were basically UU/NU Dark/Ghost types+Greninja most of the time)

[Tomas Elliot]

Personally, I have always failed to understand why Aegislash became Uber in the first place, and I wouldn't mind a re-test (or at least, someone explaining to me what happened, I was away from Pokemon for a while, it was OU when I left and I found it in Ubers upon returning...).

Also, I cannot help but notice that the conversation is mostly about OU, however I have suggestions for lower tiers as well, and I am sure other people do too, so... Why not starting a separate topic for the lower tiers? It's obvious that a topic like this one will always be OU-centric, because that's the most played tier, but... Let's not neglect the rest!

[Jelly]

the purpose of the thread is just to nominate suspects regardless of tier,,,

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

I disagree with Blaziken, Aegislash and Deoxys formes returning to OU.

Blaziken with a Life orb is stronger than mega blaziken and can avoid its counters with baton pass, Deoxys-formes have been addressed by Cowtao and Aegislash (which now works on this server) is just too crazy good in too many situations to warrant a place in any secure OU tier.

I also Agree with Greninja getting suspected, it's too good in too many situations and anyone who denies that its breaking the OU meta game either doesnt actually play and is theorymonning, or simply doesnt know enough about the tier to correctly judge.

[Sparky]

I'd suggest Talonflame, but i can see others proving that it's not what I'm going to say. Talon is practically a glass cannon with Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/Roost/filler (Usually U-Turn or so). There are counters to it in bulky defensive 'mons or sashed Breloom, but outside of that it can ransack teams with it's Gale Wings giving flying moves higher priority.

[Jelly]

offensive talon actually isnt as great anymore with lando and heatran running rampant in ou now

[Kaito]

I actually want to note that Aegis was never suspected in the first place for Reborn, nor actually banned.

It was a side effect of moving onto Smogon tiers during our showdown move, and as such is techically uber due to said tier list. But if we're moving it to a Reborn style list, it's still OU.

So it's a wierd point considering as a community we never actually banned it, it just happened by matter of circumstance.

[Tomas Elliot]

Since I am usually the guy who speaks against bannning/suspecting Pokemon, I will now do something new and actually suggest a suspect for the UU tier: how the hell is Mega Alakazam not banned from UU? I mean seriously, I am pretty damn sure it was untill a short while ago, and after playing the tier for quite some time I can honestly say that it doesn't look like ORAS changed it so dramatically from a defensive point of view: a few new offensive threats appeared in the form of Mega Beedrill and Mega Sceptile, (which I would suggest for suspect too if it wasn't for Blissey), but the defensive go-to mons are more or less the same, and I cannot see anything that can seriously hope to stand a chance against Mega Alakazam. All it needs to do is to come in while still in its normal form (thus taking advantage from Magic Guard to set up in the face of most defensive Pokemon that rely on status to threaten foes), use Calm Mind, Mega Evolve, and then blast through the opposition: Psyshock is a clear 2KO on Blissey at +1 if I am not wrong, and the coverage moves (HP Fire and Dazzling Gleam probably grant the best coverage, but Zam lso has Focus Blast and Energy Ball as viable options) can easily obliterate anything else in the tier... Have I mentioned that it is the fastest non-scarfed mon in the tier, on top of a Special Attack stat that would have been Uber material just one single generation ago?

So yeah, I don't know about you guys, but I don't really like the idea of running into this thing in UU. And I repeat, I am pretty damn sure it was BL not long ago, and I fail to understand how it made it back...

[Meruem]

True, M-zam used to be BL, but upon retesting, it came back to UU.

For starters, Zam and M-Zam's counters/checks are pretty much the same:

- scarfers (whose base speed stat must be above 85 for mega)

- even if not very common, priority

- special walls bar blissey and even some physically defensive mons (rotom-h, gligar), since psyshock is more common

- half of the entire fucking tier that is slower than it, yet bulky enough (they can live at least one hit and OHKO back, unless regular zam and sash)

Also, hate to break it to you but CM M-Zam isn't really a thing. I have seen very few people run it and these few I came across were more than enough to conclude that it doesn't work at all. In most cases, M-Zam has no chances of setting up, given how frail it is. You'd have to rely on very specific situations like, for example, a Blissey OHKOing a mon and you sending M-Zam in to set up on it, and even then, the sweep would be easily stopped by a reliable scarfer, because scarfers are VERY common nowadays on UU. They were already quite necessary, and now with the tier being dominated by newly introduced oras megas like M-Lopunny and M-Beedrill, they're more needed than ever. This brings me to my next point:

- M-Zam is NOT supposed to be a set-up sweeper, it acts much better as a revenge killer. Thanks to its high speed and spa stats, it's guaranteed to KO anything that's been weakened enough.

However, this also applies to regular Zam. In fact, I personally think Zam is better than it's mega. They're both better suited as revenge killers, and in that regard, regular Zam has two strong points its mega doesnt:

- Focus Sash/Life Orb in conjunction with Magic Guard, and I don't think I even need to explain much why this is great/makes it superior to its mega.

Speaking of UU and revenge killers, here's a thing I think needs to be suspect tested, at the very least: M-Beedrill

- it's too fast for the tier (only M-Zam and certain scarfers outspeed it)

- it's a glass cannon (150 base attack + adaptability)... except the glass part is practically irrelevant in most situations. why? because u-turn, thats why. not to mention that it makes M-Beedrill an incredibly good revenge killer... or killer in general actually, since it can OHKO a ton of mons in UU anyway, it can do massive damage while avoiding getting hit at all

- finally, getting rid of M-Beedrill's counters is way too easy, due to the aforementioned u-turn. all you have to do is send it in and spam u-turn, and slowly, you're able to weaken most of its counters (donphan, m-aggron, hippowdown, swampert,...) while bringing in a counter/check yourself to bait them out

In general I feel like it's too easy to play M-Beedrill. Building a team around it consists of having checks for its counters, a physical/special wall core for scarfers, hazards and a spinner/defogger. OU/BL is the tier where it truly belongs.

Here's the most common set people run:

Beedrill @ Beedrillite

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- U-turn

- Poison Jab

- Knock Off/Drill Run

- Protect

Another one I think should get suspected is M-Gallade, though, I'm gonna wait to see people play it more. It seems like it's not getting enough usage, surprisingly. For now, I won't bother with it much, I'll just wait until everyone realizes how good it actually is, and starts spamming it, since that's how things usually get banned.

Edited December 22, 2014 by MMM

[Deleted User]

Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, Mega Gallade, should and likely all will be OU in smogon tiers soon enough. Beedrill has this nasty habiit of dying to anything with a decent amount of power and a priority attack. It's easily countered.

[Azeria]

Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, Mega Gallade, should and likely all will be OU in smogon tiers soon enough. Beedrill has this nasty habiit of dying to anything with a decent amount of power and a priority attack. It's easily countered.

At least its a well needed upgrade from Gen 1.

[Chase]

There are most definitely ways to counter many of the 'mons being suggested for the suspect list. I think it would do us all an amount of good to make your suggestion without attaching any emotional investment or opinion to it. It's the "suspect list", not the "Get this thing the bloody hell out of OU" or "please bring this thing back" list.

That being said, I actually -will- suggest a Pokemon to be tested that I myself absolutely loathe dealing with. Sableye.

Let's start with what I do know about the pokemon. Sableye has a very great defensive typing (Dark, Ghost), which provides it three immunities (Normal, Psychic, Fighting). It resists Poison moves, and it's lone weakness is the newly arrived Fairy typing.

Fairy types are a -very- potent type to deal with in the current tier. Clefable and Azumarill are very threatening pokemon. Un-Mega-Sableye however, can use the move 'Will-o-wisp' and "always" outspeed due to it's default go-to ability (Prankster), which burns the target and cripples it's Attack stat. That effectively nullifies most Azumarill as a check, because the move of choice to dispose of Sableye would be 'Play Rough', a physical move that will be hindered by the burn.

As such, Clefable is the lone outright check for this pokemon, outside of burning or poisoning it to whittle it down over time. Sableye on a cleric team without a mega stone is problematic enough. Mega evolving it grants it access to 'Magic Bounce', which is an equally problematic ability in that hazards and effects will not afflict the target, and in many cases, will the user instead. You have to be -very- quick on the draw to poison or burn this pokemon, because if you don't, you can get absolutely shut down by a strategically timed Mega Evolution.

This pokemon also gets access to the recovery move 'Recover', which makes getting rid of it, even harder. With all of the priority utilities, the typeing, and the mega evolution granting it a different niche it can switch to easily without needing to alter the set much from the non-mega form, the last thing this pokemon really needed was recovery, but it has it, and it can be used without the mega with priority.

To wrap it all up, Smogon provides a viable set for this pokemon to be used in an UBERS situation as it is. It seems like I'm not the only one who could make this argument.

I don't care if this thing stays in OU, and I know I'm not the most reliable person to make a suggestion for stress testing pokemon, but if there was ever a pokemon I felt was a bit lowly tiered, this one is probably it.

[Reignited'Light]

Yeah Clefable is one of the few counters to it. There are also other options such as Mega Gardevoir and Sub CM Keldeo (It will always win the calm mind war, and will always beat the utility Mega Sableye).
And other megas such as Charizard Y also checks Mega Sableye

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in Sun: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in Sun: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO

Sableye does this to Zard Y

+1 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 102-120 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hard hitting special attacks can beat Mega Sableye.

And those calcs are from a Mega Sableye. Just edited the base stats.
It can not heal itself from status as well, so combined with a respective status (Burn is most common), it can be defeated easily from moves like Scald/Lava Plume.

I don't think it is necessarily strong enough for it to be suspected/banned. Anyone else's thoughts?

[Meruem]

Speaking of Sableye, I was actually going to suggest to put it back in UU :/.

What you said is all true, but upon facing M-Sableye in UU, I found it way too easy to counter, in fact, I find regular Sableye to be better, since it maintains prankster. I sincerely don't understand how it got that much usage to become OU material. But sure, why not suspect test it to Ubers? I mean, if everyone agrees...

Would also like to suggest to suspect (if not change this right away) Metagross (not its mega) back to UU. Not much has changed, so regular Metagross is still as good as it was, it's meant to be in UU IMO.

EDIT: Just saw skittys post, and yea, my point was proven. If anything, I find Sableye too weak for OU, it has a vastful amount of things it just can't survive hits from, not to mention that it's too slow to set up enough calm minds or recover enough damage. Also status (specifically Toxic) fucks it up completely, and status healing moves aren't very common in OU, from my experience.

Sure it might be usable in Ubers, but that doesn't change how well it performs in other tiers.

Edited December 22, 2014 by MMM

[Deleted User]

I think Sableye belong exactly where it is in OU. Mega Sableye may be somewhat different, but it's still just as much of a monster, and the addition of a Mega Evo makes it more unpredictable.

You can still run WoW, Calm Mind, and Recover to set up or cripple other mons before Mega Evolving and make opponents hesitant to use status moves on it or hazards. In XY it did belong in UU, and now I feel it does belong in OU

As far as mega stones being banned, that's only really been done in regards to OU/Ubers before.

[Chase]

I can see it being an OU pokemon and Charizard is a decent counter due to being immune to WoW. Thank you, Skitty. (I haven't seen M-Voir run that often, but that also would do a lot.)

Umbreown, I just don't think there's that many special attackers with the ability to cause it to "not survive hits" to justify sinking it to UU. You don't -HAVE- to Mega Evolve right away. The thing that makes M-Sableye a threat is that it will usually force a switch to protect physical attackers, allowing it 1 free CM with Prankster, and then it will usually get the 2nd one up due to prankster before anything else can touch it.

Sure, Magic Bounce is a downgrade in ability compared to Prankster, but after the stat-boosts (which it pretty much can get for free if you aren't trigger-happy with your mega evolution) it's damn near scary. It doesn't need to be fast enough to get CM off if it's already happened.

Also, doesn't this thing get Taunt access? Sure, it may be ideal to status it, but if you make it obvious, you're asking to get taunted. Priority taunt, remember...

[Shamitako]

Magic Bounce isn't necessarily a downgrade, it's much better for what M-Sableye does than Prankster. And the two synergize extremely well on Sableye when used properly. Personally Prankster>Magic Bounce is my favorite ability change ATM

And just to toss in my "vote" Sableye is perfectly fine where it is imo

Edited December 22, 2014 by KosherKitten