Deleted User Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 yes that's what is called a complex ban. it's why kangaskhan is allowed in nu after only the megastone being banned to ubers. same with gengar and lucario. :] I understand that, but I just want confirmation that we can do that on our server as opposed to be limited to complex bans by smogon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I did say you couldn't prepare for it because of unpredictability. And again, if it's just luck then there's nothing wrong with it because it could go either way and neither player is really at a disadvantage. However if it isn't luck and actually is Greninja being above part of the metagame like I've been saying, then there's a major issue that needs addressed Also, an educated guess still requires skill to make. If you were truly just making a random guess, then you wouldn't even consider Greninja's possible movesets, but you're not, you're using what knowledge you're given to make the best choice you can based on the situation (I think I said that exact line already) The same thing happens all the time with any Pokemon that can have more than one set of coverage moves (EX: Charizard Y may or may not be running Focus Blast, so you make an educated guess that it is because that's fairly common and swap your Normal type out to a Ghost type. You weren't unlucky if you were wrong and it just used Fire Blast) Greninja simply takes this up a notch with it's absolutely massive viable movepool. If mispredicting Greninja is luck, so is mispredicting anything. Greninja is just a lot easier to mispredict than pretty much everything else Actually, it is a major issue if it is luck. I've been participating in the tiering process on smogon since gen 4, and if there's one thing I can tell you, it's that one of the main aims of competitive pokemon is to eliminate the luck factor as much as possible. Of course, some hax in unavoidable, but this is the reason why moody, double team, swagplay etc were banned. Greninja being unpredictable is exactly what makes it more luck based (note: "more". I'm not saying it is completely luck based and neither did the poster you originally quoted). Greninja runs maybe 2 staple moves and 5-6 viable coverage moves, a skilled player can identify maybe the 2-3 mons on his/her team that can switch into greninja's staple moves, but past that guessing whether or not greninja has the right coverage move to nail that mon has nothing to do with skill. This makes playing against greninja more luck based than playing against a mon like the Charizard Y you mentioned, who doesn't have nearly as many viable options. There is still skill in play, but your skill can only take you so far before luck comes into play. In the end, though, we're really just arguing semantics which isn't really related to the topic at hand. In the end, no matter how we reached that conclusion, it seems like we both believe Greninja deserves a suspect. If you have any more input regarding this, you're free to reply to me, but I won't be commenting on this topic anymore after this post. yes that's what is called a complex ban. it's why kangaskhan is allowed in nu after only the megastone being banned to ubers. same with gengar and lucario. :] That's not a complex ban lol. Complex bans are non-straightforward bans, like on certain combos (like drizzle+swift swim in gen 5), or banning the use of an ability only for a specified pokemon (example would be banning speed boost blaziken but allowing blaze, this hasn't been done before and pretty much isn't done). Banning a megastone is considered a straightforward ban of the item, so it's not a complex ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 ...Double Team isn't so much luck as being insanely OP. I mean, it is luck if the opponent manages to hit you after a couple, but that's why you had a Substitute up. A proper Double Team user can be literally indestructible without the opponent specifically bringing something to stop it, no luck needed. Gets even worse when you throw in Baton Pass and end up with a +6 Evade, +6 Attack, +6 Speed Ramparados behind a Substitute (Sigh, I remember the month when I was famous for that battle, doubt anyone else even remembers it now...) Could probably say the same of Moody (If you stall for stats long enough, a Moody Bidoof can sweep an unprepared opponent) and SwagPlay (Though less so on SwagPlay because that actually was OP partially because of the luck factor giving an advantage to the user, and a bit of good luck on your opponent's part could cause things to go badly) But no, luck is not bad, it's hardly the antithesis of skill, it's what makes two players of equal skill not have the same battle every time, or allows a player of slightly lower skill to best someone better than them every few battles. And if you're legitimately that much better than someone that you should be winning every battle, then a bit--or even a lot--of luck shouldn't stop you from doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) The first round of voting on Smogon about banning Greninja from OU ends tomorrow. ( to answer to eagleby ) I'd like to ask. When our server solves the problems with smogon/showdown and we will be able to run our own suspect tests, are we going to do it like showdown, have some days to play and come back here , someone opens the topic and we vote? edit:... or do we go straight to voting procedures? Edited January 11, 2015 by nickcrash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonikku Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Here is some jamming jelly for you all, I hope it fits for you! I would like to revive this thread to suspect test, Mega Beedrill. Remember Weedle? Well it's back with an even nastier sting. ' ImmaBeedrillingU (Beedrill-Mega) (M) @ Beedrillite Ability: Adaptability EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - U-turn - Poison Jab - Knock Off - Drill Run You will probably want to run protect over drill run/knock off, but in all honesty, it isn't worth it. with drill run, you suffer against ghost types, and with knock off, you maybe struggle with steel types. Combine the two, and you have got yourself a sweeper that doesn't need to setup. After you mega protect is almost always useless, as most of the time you are either killing something, or escaping with a switch or with U-turn. See the point of this set is for you to prove yourself you are worthy of using Beedrill, but mega evolving when faster, or other safe circumstances. This thing is a facking monster. It runs rampant in the UU tier, with little to no checks whatsover, and f there is one, it is a another mega. That being Aggron. But having one mega is a poor way to counter another mega. Here are some damage calcs. 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 248-292 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 632-744 (251.7 - 296.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO ~because whynot?252 Atk Beedrill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 258-304 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO252 Atk Beedrill Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 276-326 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO +2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beedrill: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 221-260 (81.5 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO With its massive attack stat and offensive capabilities, along with its staggering base 145 speed, nothing can really stop it, besides powerful priority such as Mega Pinsir. (Pinsir u shrub you) (find the tier changes here), (UU Battle with Beedrill) allowing it to outspeed anything else that isn't scarfed or Mega Alakazam or Mega Aerodactyl. A pokemon cannot be this much more superior than the other pokemon in a tier. It needs to move to Border Line. Not quite OU, but BL for sure. It is also a damn good counter to Serperior, which is a somewhat safe pokemon to mega on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Bulky Crobat walls Beedrill completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonikku Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Bulky Crobat walls Beedrill completely. Maybe so, but you can't rely on one pokemon to make a pokemon un-viable m8. i.e. Chansey is a probably to best check for Greninja, but it still got banned. Getting walled by a single pokemon isn't enough to resist a ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reignited'Light Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Mega Aggron, Foretress, Hippowdown, and Donphan are pretty good checks to Beedrill. They can take a hit and retaliate with STAB attacks, or wall it completely. Also something to note, just because there are no counters to a pokemon, doesn't make it a instant threat. Yeah Mega Beedrill is really tough with Adaptability and high speed, but it's too predictable. Beedrill has bad defenses, and will be revenged killed easily. Vice versa. Just because a Pokemon has checks or counters, doesn't mean that it is not broken either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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