Revisiting the Reborn speedrun: brainstorm!

[dondon151]

Hi everyone, episode 14's out, I'm on break, and this is a great time to revise the speedrun route that I had posted months previously: http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9358

So most users here probably know more about the game than I do: specifically, when and where Pokemon and items can be obtained and problem spots to watch out for. The previous one was good, but some things have changed and I want to see how much it can be improved.

Previously the route featured:

Blaziken

I don't think this is going to change; unless starters can no longer get hidden abilities, Blaziken is the best starter and can handle most things by itself. Even if that were true, I think Blaziken is still the best starter now that Combusken gets Flame Charge at L20.

Pros:

- Amazing offensive stats

- Great offensive STABs by level up or Heart Scale

- Learns Bulk Up by level up

- Outspeeds almost everything with Speed Boost

Cons:

- Lackluster defensive stats

- Very bad vs. Aya and Radomus (and probably some later trainers in E14)

For what it couldn't handle:

Swoobat

Pros:

- Complements Blaziken's poison, psychic, and ground woes

- Decent offensive STABs by level up

- Learns Calm Mind by level up

- Evolves quickly with proper investment

- Sets up very quickly with Simple

Cons:

- Terrible defensive stats

- Requires setup to sweep most normal trainer battles

Now for support Pokemon, I've thought of better alternatives to the ones I used previously. They are:

Glameow

Pros:

- HM slave for Cut

- Obtainable via event with little time investment

- Great setup Pokemon for double battles with Fake Out and maybe Hypnosis

Snubbull

Pros:

- HM slave for Rock Smash, Strength, and (in a later episode) Rock Climb

- Intimidate might be strategically useful

I'm more concerned about alternatives for the main combat Pokemon. Swoobat is good, but it might encounter big problems later in the game. I've entertained:

Diggersby

Pros:

- Complements Blaziken's poison woes

- Good offensive STABs by level up, HM, or Heart Scale (though Earthquake comes late)

- Learns Swords Dance by Heart Scale

- Evolves quickly

- Very powerful without setup due to Huge Power

Cons:

- Exacerbates Blaziken's water weakness

- Not very fast without setup

- Can't boost a defensive stat

- Not a good doubles partner

Lilligant

Pros:

- Complement's Blaziken's psychic and water woes

- Learns Quiver Dance by level up

- Can make battles trivial with Sleep Powder

- Being locked into Petal Dance saves time

- Probably the best overall long-term partner

Cons:

- Exacerbates Blaziken's poison and flying woes

- Also not good against Aya, which is Blaziken's first bad matchup

- Offensive coverage is dismal or inconsistent

- Being locked into Petal Dance can also lose time

- Sun Stone is out of the way

Another option is to keep Swoobat but swap him out later, but I'm not familiar with lategame Pokemon - that's partially why I'm making this topic! The previous run had a split of 5h 34m after defeating Luna.

Anyway, I would just like users to throw out ideas, even if you think they might be bad. There are a lot of qualities good speedrunning Pokemon have, and it's impossible for a single Pokemon to have all of them.

Edited December 17, 2014 by dondon151

[Nova]

Get back to EP10 and get Gyarados EZ GG

The main concern seems to be the lategame. I think it would be best to think of 3 'sets' of pokémon that can be acquired quickly: one early on (Up until Shade), one mid-game (Up until Serra) , and one late-game (everything else), keeping some mons such as Blaziken with you for the entire time. For your team, all mons are relatively 'early-game', so your best bet is finding replacements that make it worth your time getting them.

Here are some options that I think would be good for speedruns, with the estimated time (measured in badges) that they are viable:

Trubbish (from 0th to 2th Badge)

Pros:

+Available almost immediately

+Little training required to be useful in the first two gyms with Toxic Spikes

+Can take some hits and act as a 'sacrificial' to heal up an important member

Cons:

-Usefulness quickly drops after the second gym, being nearly useless even after the point it evolves.

-Quite bad moveset (Only Normal and Poison moves)

Litleo->Pyroar (from 0th to 4th badge)

Pros:

+Requires little training because of the Exp.Boost

+Very useful against nearly all early gyms, such as Julia (Because it starts at level 15), Florinia, Shelly (obvious) and Shade (with Crunch and Normal type)

+has Fire Fang + Moxie to sweep.

+Great option up until at least Shade, after which a then available mon can take over

Cons:

-Overlaps with Torchic and shares several weaknesses with Torchic and Glameow

-Bidoof. Just training Bidoof is the worst thing ever and is sure to cost a lot of time and take exp. away from your other mons.

-Starts to lose value after Shade

Ralts->Gardevoir (Stays Viable)

Pros:

+Earliest available Teleport (In the Railnet)

+Powerful moves once it evolves, such as Moonblast, Psychic and Calm Mind

+Can replace Swoobat after Aya (Suggestion: Use Swoobat until you get Ralts, use both until Aya, then drop Swoobat and use Gardevoir instead)

+Stays viable because of stats and moveset

Cons:

-Small inconvenience to get (Corrupted Pokeball is only available after Shade in the railnet, after which you have to go to the Obsidia Ward to retrieve it)

-Needs to be babysat until it evolves into Gardevoir

-Physically frail

-Possibly weak against Aya (Fairy type)

I'll update this later after I think of more options. This actually got me interested to try a speedrun too. Good luck.

[dondon151]

The main concern seems to be the lategame. I think it would be best to think of 3 'sets' of pokémon that can be acquired quickly: one early on (Up until Shade), one mid-game (Up until Serra) , and one late-game (everything else), keeping some mons such as Blaziken with you for the entire time. For your team, all mons are relatively 'early-game', so your best bet is finding replacements that make it worth your time getting them.

I think this mindset is usable, but not something to live and die by. Ideally we can grab a Pokemon early on (if we're using Blaziken, before Aya) and use it all the way until the end of the game, whenever that end may be. Catching and bringing a Pokemon up to speed takes precious minutes, and every little segment of the game can be completed in roughly a half hour on the in-game clock. Failing that, we can split the Pokemon into 'sets' of 2 rather than 3 and see if we can make do. 3 'sets' is the tertiary option.

Another option is that rather than picking a supporting Pokemon that we can use for a period of time, we instead catch Pokemon as needed for Blaziken's trouble battles. So for example, rather than getting a Swoobat and then training for Aya + onwards, we instead get, like, a Musharna that's immediately useful and good against Aya, then drop it until we need to get another Pokemon for Radomus. I think this option is subpar because without a good supporting Pokemon to keep up with Blaziken, double battles become a lot slower (and Shelly and Serra became double battles in E14, I think?).

Since you mentioned Ralts, I'll raise you an:

Abra

Pros:

- Amazing offensive stats

- Complements Blaziken's poison and psychic woes

- Learns good offensive STABs by level up

- Learns Calm Mind by level up

- Consistent coverage option in TM30 Shadow Ball

- Very powerful without setup

- Teleport user

Cons:

- Obtained late in the game

- Low starting level

- Time investment is small but notable (find 7 Purple Shards as hidden items)

Also, doesn't Ralts require both the Corrupted Pokeball and the Magnet Powder? The Magnet Powder can't be obtained until right before PULSE Muk, which is pretty late in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If it's really obtainable after Shade, it's by far the best partner option, and Swoobat wouldn't be necessary.

EDIT: I used this guy on my first casual playthrough; I don't think he's the best option for speedrunning but I'm tossing the idea out there anyway.

Binacle

Pros:

- Complements Blaziken's poison and flying woes

- Decent offensive STABs by level up

- Some good coverage options available by level up

- Learns Shell Smash by Heart Scale

Cons:

- Shell Smash is a precarious setup move

- Fairly slow without setup

- Not terribly strong without setup

- It's sooo bad before it learns Razor Shell

- Stone Edge, more like Stone Miss

Edited December 17, 2014 by dondon151

[JapaneseWallpaper]

This is a very interesting concept, good luck with it

[Nova]

Also, doesn't Ralts require both the Corrupted Pokeball and the Magnet Powder? The Magnet Powder can't be obtained until right before PULSE Muk, which is pretty late in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If it's really obtainable after Shade, it's by far the best partner option, and Swoobat wouldn't be necessary.

I made a mistake there. Ralts is only available in the segment of the railnet that Requires Strength, so that's after Aya. The Magnet Powder is available then, but getting Ralts is actually about 2 episodes later (Kiki and Aya) instead of after Shade.

Small question: Is your Blaziken overleveled in your speedrun, or is it always close to the level cap? If it is, you might not need any extra sweepers except for those that cover its weaknesses, so it would be best to look for 4 things in a mon:

1-How well does it complement Blaziken?

2-How effective is it at support (also HMs?)

3-How effective is it in Double Battles?

4-Is getting it worth the time?

Carvanha->Sharpedo (obtainable just after 3d badge)

Pros:

+Counters Ghost and Ground (somewhat) types

+Decent sweeper with Speed Boost

+Absolutely no time wasted getting (Gang quests must be completed to proceed to 7th street anyway)

+Learns Strenght, Surf and Waterfall as late-game HMs

Cons:

-Getting it right when you can is hard (You must defeat the Aqua Gang Double battle to join them, and beating Water types with Blaziken is hard)

-Very frail

-Limited utility in Double Battles

-Learns only Aqua Jet as a water move until Surf in late-game

[dondon151]

I made a mistake there. Ralts is only available in the segment of the railnet that Requires Strength, so that's after Aya. The Magnet Powder is available then, but getting Ralts is actually about 2 episodes later (Kiki and Aya) instead of after Shade.

I just rechecked my route and you're right, Ralts is available immediately after Aya. That's still pretty late, though, because by that time Blaziken was already at L46.

Small question: Is your Blaziken overleveled in your speedrun, or is it always close to the level cap? If it is, you might not need any extra sweepers except for those that cover its weaknesses, so it would be best to look for 4 things in a mon:

Blaziken is always close to the level cap. I have to go through a ton of Common Candies early on to prevent it from breaking the level cap. That's why all of my pro/con evaluations are made in the context of backing up Blaziken.

Carvanha is a candidate for a Dive slave because it or Buizel is guaranteed plotwise. I think two huge cons are that it doesn't learn a boosting move by level up and that its offensive options are limited to basically Crunch and Ice Fang.

Edited December 17, 2014 by dondon151

[Nova]

Here's some other possilbe additions for a speedrun!

Vulpix->Ninetales

Pros:

+Drought boosts Blaziken's power greatly

+Learns good support moves such as Will-o-Wisp and Confuse Ray

+Acquired easily and early , only requires a mon with high friendship (Blaziken does all the battling so it likely has enough frienship at that point) and defeating a Klinklang (which is decimated by both of Blaziken's STAB attacks).

+Extrasensory somewhat complements Blaziken's Poison woes

Cons:

-Firestone to evolve Vulpix is slightly out of the way

-Shares several weaknesses with Blaziken

Magnemite -> Magnezone

Pros:

+Complements Blaziken's Water,Flying and Poison woes

+Learns many powerful moves on level-up

+Available quite early on (Shade)

+Completely walls Aya

Cons:

-Evolving to Magnezone requires the Yureyu key, which costs LOTS of time to get

-Shares a heavy Ground weakness with Blaziken

[dondon151]

Thanks for your suggestions. A few other notes:

1. Shade is a hard stop to Blaziken because Chandelure always has Flash Fire and Blaziken can't damage it unless it still has Peck. Even if Blaziken had Peck, Shade is hard to setup on because Gengar and Golett both hit Blaziken pretty hard.

2. Corey is pretty difficult for Combusken, especially Skrelp. In the old route I rescued the police officers and grinded out extra battles to evolve Combusken to Blaziken before Corey and then trigger the corrosive mist field to boost Blaze Kick's power. Combusken also had to basically solo Taka and ZEL for extra EXP.

3. The move relearner is no longer accessible until after Strength is obtained, which is a blow for most Pokemon. Blaziken can't get HJK immediately after evolution, but that's not a huge deal. Diggersby can't get Bulldoze or Swords Dance early, which hurts it a lot, but it might still manage. Swoobat can't get a special Psychic STAB until L41, which also hurts it quite a bit.

[Nova]

Thanks for your suggestions. A few other notes:

1. Shade is a hard stop to Blaziken because Chandelure always has Flash Fire and Blaziken can't damage it unless it still has Peck. Even if Blaziken had Peck, Shade is hard to setup on because Gengar and Golett both hit Blaziken pretty hard.

2. Corey is pretty difficult for Combusken, especially Skrelp. In the old route I rescued the police officers and grinded out extra battles to evolve Combusken to Blaziken before Corey and then trigger the corrosive mist field to boost Blaze Kick's power. Combusken also had to basically solo Taka and ZEL for extra EXP.

3. The move relearner is no longer accessible until after Strength is obtained, which is a blow for most Pokemon. Blaziken can't get HJK immediately after evolution, but that's not a huge deal. Diggersby can't get Bulldoze or Swords Dance early, which hurts it a lot, but it might still manage. Swoobat can't get a special Psychic STAB until L41, which also hurts it quite a bit.

Maybe you can experiment with changing the field effects to overcome those battles. For example, you can catch a Swinub in the Rock Smash cave before Shade, and have it use Mist, which it learns at level 35 (the level they can be found in that cave). The misty field will reduce the power of Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, Shade's primary attacking moves, and also gives the possiblilty of transforming the field into a Corrosive Mist Field, which would skyrocket the power of Blaziken's fire attacks.

Getting the Emolga in Jasper Ward for the Corey could also be a good idea, since it can learn cut, and has Nuzzle and Electro ball to deal with Corey's Skrelp. Possible Double Team hax?

In the case of Swoobat, what might help is catching a Woobat with a +Attack nature and good Attack IVs, so that it can use Heart Stamp effectively, then, once you're at about level 40, catch a new Woobat, which are found in the later part of the Railnet, at level 30+, and make sure that one has high Special Attack to use Psychic.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Nova

[dondon151]

That's catching too many Pokemon. Also, Blaziken has no trouble against any of Shade's Pokemon except for his Chandelure, which walls Blaziken entirely.

Given Shade's new team order, I wonder whether Swoobat is viable at all anymore. Gengar comes out first, so Swoobat can't set up against boosted Shadow Balls or Thunderbolts. If Blaziken OHKOs Gengar, the next Pokemon out is Golett, who has Electric-type Gyro Ball to hit Swoobat's unboosted Def. If Blaziken stays in to OHKO Golett, the next Pokemon out is Chadelure. If Chandelure has a Ghost-type move at all, I think Swoobat can't setup even if it had Amnesia for +4 SpDef.

Diggersby is working out super well, though, except for Take Down's accuracy issues. Take Down's recoil actually synergizes with Flail. I think at this point I can strike Lilligant off the list of Blaziken supporters because:

- It has to stay unevolved for a long time

- It can't really help Blaziken against Corey or Chadelure

Basically, if Lilligant were to be a member of the speedrun pair, it would be in the same position as Ralts and Abra; that is, you'd have to get it after Aya and grind it up to a point where it's self-sufficient.

Summary: early speedrun partners have to be Pokemon who can at least beat Chandelure 1-on-1. If it can't beat Chandelure, then it's probably not worth getting.