Same Netbean, new Team

[netbean]

Hello all ppl,

Before starting i wanna wish to you all a bit late merry christmass and a bit early happy new year

Now back to business. I wanted to play the game with just one 6 pokemon team till the end, but then i said it will be easier/funnier to have more and to rotate between em, so while trying to fill all types i ended up with a team of 12 pokemons for my rotation.

I would like to have your thoughts for this team, what's wrong and how to fix them and so on

I havent used a lot of TMs because i dont know what TMs we can get up to the end of ep 14 since the furthest i have gone is chrysolia forest so i have used only the TMs i know we can have up there

So lets start it:

Venusaur - naughty | overgrow Noivern - modest | infiltrator Clefable - naive | magic guard

-Giga Drain/Synthesis(not sure which one) -Dragon Pulse -Moonblast

-Sludge/(Sludge bomb when available) -Boomburst -Meteor Mash

-Petal Dance -Air Slash/Hurricane -Body Slam/Shadow Ball

-Petal Blizzard -Moonlight/Super Fang/Shadow Ball -Moonlight/Heal Pulse

Flygon - quiet | levitate Arcanine - adamant | intimidate Magnezone - timid | sturdy

-Superpower -Flare Blitz -Flash Cannon

-Earthquake -Close Combat -Discharge

-Boomburst -Crunch -Mirror Coat

-Dragon Claw/Dragon Rush -Outrage -Metal Sound

(or remove discharge/metal sound for zap cannon/lock-on)

Barbaracle - jolly | tough claws Drapion - careful | battle armor Chandelure - timid | flame body

-Stone Edge -Night Slash/Crunch -Confuse Ray/Curse

-Shell Smash/Night Slash -Cross Poison -Pain Split/Curse

-Razor Shell -Confuse Ray -Overheat/Flame Burst

-Cross Chop -Screech -Shadow Ball/Hex

Sigilyph - modest | magic guard Heracross - impish | guts Walrein - naive/hasty | oblivious

-Psychic -Counter -Surf

-Air Slash -Megahorn -Waterfall

-Roost -Close Combat -Blizzard

-Shadow Ball -Reversal/Double-Edge/Night Slash/Strength -Hail

HM slaves: Kricketune(cut, flash, rock smash, strength), Psyduck(dive, flash, rock smash, strength)

hypothesis: i wont need cut and dive at same area; (needs to be verified by others who have gone till the end of the game and have seen such a case or others who have seen it before reaching the end of the game)

Thank you for your time!

PS: I would like to hear the user Etesian too cause i like a lot all his in-depth analysis for other people's teams

Edit: I had forgotten to put the nature and the ability of chandelure.

Edited December 31, 2014 by netbean

[Etesian]

Gimme a sec, gonna put something together real quick.

Yeah, 2 hours counts as quick, totally. Sorry for the wait, but I like doing this as well as I can, and this quality takes some time. A-ny-ways, here's what I've got for ya!

Having all 3 Grass moves on Venusaur is super redundant. I'd say keep Giga Drain only. Petal Blizzard comes from it's weaker attack stat, Petal Dance locks you in and confuses you at the end, Giga Drain has good power and heals you, which'll really come in handy since it's decently bulky.

-Naughty is also a bad nature for it, you're wasting it's good Sp.Def, while not helping you by a lot. Or at all.

You could go back to pre-E13 and get it Sludge Bomb via Grimer>Stunfisk>Wooper>Snubbull>Roselia>Venusaur. There's also the option of Sunny Day+Chlorophyll+Solar Beam, which would be even better if you had other stuff to take advantage of sunlight, like a Heliolisk. Alternatively, there's Leech Seed, Hidden Power, Amnesia and Sleep Powder. And Worry Seed can come in handy.

-There's also a physical set that could work well, with Curse, Power Whip, Double Edge, Leech Seed/Bulldoze (TM at the end of E13).

For Noivern, Moonlight is pointless since we have healing items. Super Fang is also not too great unless, and Shadow Ball has unnecessary coverage, we're past both Shade and Radomus. Hidden Power could be neat, depending on what you'd get, we also get Flamethrower later, but I'd reeeeeeally recommend Tailwind.

-IMO, Hurricane has sucky accuracy, and Noivern's speed lets it utilize Air Slash's high flinch chance.

IMO, Clefable works in comp, but not too well in-game, since healing items exist. If you want to keep it, I'd recommend Minimize, Cosmic Power, Moonblast, Stored Power. It has quite a niche in being able to reliably buff it's defenses and technically it's attack (Stored Power) at the same time, boosting it's evasion incredibly well, and resisting status/weather damage via Magic Guard. This set oughta work out really well.

-It's also too slow to get anything from a Speed-boosting nature, something like Calm/Bold/Modest/Relaxed/Sassy/Quiet would work well on it.

-If you want an alternative, Sylveon is an excellent Fairy type, but the above set could really do some work, (just set up Evasion before defense). With access to both Trump Card and Pixilate, a 390 BP hit can be set up even pre-battle, though even the previous uses of T-Card have quite some power (x1.95 due to Pixilate and new STAB). It also gets Light Screen, Hidden Power (Ground would be neat), Shadow Ball(it's some coverage) and Yawn.

Whaaaaaat, this thing gets Boomburst!? Man, that almost makes a Special set sorta-viable. And Trapinch gets Rock Slide at level 15!? Man, I'm getting one in my next game. Anyways, Flygon doesn't get too many useful special moves and it's Sp.Attack is rather low compared to it's Attack stat.

-Anyways, Quiet is really bad for it, I'd actually recommend the opposite nature with Jolly. And Rock Slide is better than Boomburst IMO. It comes from the stronger attack stat and can actually do super-effective damage.

-Other than that, good stuff.

Almost perfect Arcanine! Only thing I'd recommend as a change would be Agility instead of Crunch. Crunch gives unneeded coverage, especially since it's already got almost-perfect neutral coverage with just Fire and Dragon moves. A single Agility boost lets it outspeed everything (unless it's some fast Chlorophyll-er, Swift Swim-er or Sand Rush-er). Keep Adamant, it wouldn't need a Speed boosting nature with Agility.

Discharge>>>>>>>>>Lock-On + Zap Cannon. The always-para effect is neat, but you'd only be attacking once every 2 turns, while Discharge would have a 2x30% chance to para, so effects are almost the same. Discharge is also stronger, it's 2x80 compared to 120.

-Anyways, Speed boosting natures are pointless on it. Also, I'd definitely say keep Sturdy Mirror Coat, it can and will help with events similar to that Garchomp back on the volcano. For the last move, Metal Sound can help the team out (more than Screech since you have more SP.Attackers than physical ones), Hidden Power can be good, Tri Attack is neat, T.Wave can also come in handy, and Sturdy+Explosion is a good combo.

Skip the Dark move for Barbaracle, same reason as above. You could also make this guy Adamant, since it'll never get outsped after it sets up Shell Smash anyways. Alternatively, an Impish or Careful nature can help with taking a hit if necessary.

-Also, it's time to go Yanma hunting. Those wild ones can carry Wide Lens, neat items that boost all moves' accuracies by 10%, giving Stone Edge 80%>88%, Cross Chop 80%>88% and Razor Shell 95%>104.5%. If Barbaracle misses, it's in real trouble, so every last bit of accuracy helps, and this is quite a bit of accuracy.

-Or you can gamble!! With a Zoom Lens, both Stone Edge and Cross Chop have a 50% chance to crit.

I love this guy. Give this guy Cross Poison and Night Slash, Sniper as it's ability, and a Zoom Lens. 50% chance to crit, with 2.25 times the regular not-crit power, as opposed to the regular x1.5 crit power boost.

-Other good moves for it are Swords Dance (bred pre-E13 via Ninjask (you also get X-Scissor and/or Dig like that (I'd recommend Dig, waaaay better coverage)) (Ninjask also gets you Slash if you want even MORE crits, but it covers only 5 more fully-evolved Pokemon, so I'd rather not go for it))

-Oh, and make it Jolly or Adamant.

Chandelure gets both Energy Ball via Petilil/Lotad>Phantump>Litwick or Swirlix>Castform>Litwick and Flamthrower via TM later or, if you want it now, Growlithe/Vulpix/Houndour/Numel/Torkoal/Tepig/Skuntank/Litleo>Snubbull>Swirlix>Castform>Litwick. Something like Hidden Power Ground/Fighting (maybe even Ice) or STAB Shadow Ball would be great on it too.

-And definitely give it the Trick Room TM later.

-Oh, and Modest/Timid work best.

Ah, Sigilyph, not the easiest thing to set up with, a HUGE pain to take down once it gets it's buffs going. It would be doing the same thing as Clefable, with Cosmic-and-Stored Power.

Unfortunately, we don't yet have any Toxic Orbs (legally, though you could get it around E13 by exploiting a glitch), so it's standard comp strategy of spreading statuses via a combo of an Orb, Magic Guard and Psycho Shift isn't available (legally).

-If you want to know how to get that Toxic Orb, to spare you the spoilers, read the first post here (only the first cuz eventual spoiler), explore around till you find some Card Key (something like that, forgot what it's called) and go back to Corey's gym.

-Save for the Powers, useful moves for it are Tailwind, Trick Room, Air Slash and Charge Beam.

Heracross' optimal set is gained from pre-E13 breeding, Earthquake and Rock Slide via Geodude>Crustle>Heracross. Counter isn't too good since it's not all that bulky. Counter and Mirror Coat are best for things with sky-high health and Sunkern-level defenses (see Wynaut), and Heracross doesn't quite fit the bill.

-Other than that, if you won't "journey through time", Night Slash/Bullet Seed/Rock Blast, Close Combat and Megahorn are about your best bet. Also, Moxie is waaaaaaay better for it than Guts.

Oh, and make it Adamant/Jolly.

This one's tricky. It really doesn't get a lot of good stuff, but I think I have a sets. It sounds like I'm nuts, but actually works really well. Well, it's sink-or-swim, actually, it depends if you can set up your buffs properly.

Stockpile/Curse, Rollout, Ice Ball, Waterfall/Surf with a Wide/Zoom Lens. .....don't look at me like that, I'm sane. I tried it, and it really does work. Yes, Rollout.

-Stockpile to get your defenses up, which won't be too tough since it's rather bulky already, and you need it since you'll be locked into a move for 5 turns straight, can't even use items. Curse can get your attack up, but buffs on both sides would be much better and you'll be hitting hard anyways.

-Rollout and Ice Ball are both moves that hit a max 480 power if they keep hitting. Now, people avoid these moves because they start out at a low 30 Base Power, doubling every time, but having only 90% accuracy. Sure, if you run a calc, there's only a 59% chance to hit all uses of Rollout/Ice Ball.

BUT!!! If you give it a Wide Lens, accuracy of it is boosted to 99% per use, giving you less than a 5% chance of not getting all five hits of. With a Zoom Lens, there is no chance of missing (though there may be slower foes, so Wide Lens are much safer).

-For a nature, Brave would be ideal if you want to use Zoom Lens, but you won't outspeed too many foes anyways, so it's fine either way, but Adamant/Sassy/Relaxed/Impish/Careful all work too.

Aaaaand there's that! Really liking some of your team members, good stuff. If you want me to elaborate/change something, do tell.

[netbean]

Thnx a lot man, some good stuffs there, never thought of some of those combinations

I dont prefer to go back to episodes so i will keep what i can use from ep 14

Anyway i got some questions to get some more accurate infos.

For chandelure, bulbapedia says chandelure gets energy ball only from TMs only. Flamethrower too.

For those wide and zoom lens, for wide lens u said i can get em from yanmas or yanmegas, what about zoom lens?

Edited December 31, 2014 by netbean

[Simon]

In episodes before Episode 13, the game had Gen V Breeding Mechanics. With those breeding mechanics, TM Moves can be passed down if the father knows any TM/HM moves that the baby can learn. However, in Episode 13, Gen VI Breeding Mechanics were implemented so that cannot be done anymore.

Anyways, for the Zoom Lens, you can get them at the Department Store on the 8th Floor.

Edited December 31, 2014 by ~Derpy Simon

[netbean]

Hmm, does that mean that up to ep14 i can both get energy ball and flamethrower TMs? So i learn em to the pokemon like TMs directly, no need to pass em down by breeding by other pokemons?

8th floor, hmm i can get there while im at spinel town or maybe farer i dont remember, but shouldnt be very far in the game i guess.

Thnx for the infos!

[Simon]

No. Energy Ball as a TM isn't implemented, but Flamethrower is like Etesian said up above. You get it from beating Charlotte. But you are correct that you allow your pokemon to learn the move directly from the TM, but you would have to see if the TM is in the game or not.

NEW sticker guide (Episode 13+) has information about the stickers and how many stickers you can get currently.

[Etesian]

Also, you don't need a TM for breeding. For Energy Ball, I put Lotad/Petilil at the start of the "chain" because they learn it via level-up. How a move was gotten doesn't matter for breeding, all that matters is that you have it.

Also, if you care about any details for breeding, how it all works and used to work, etc, then check out my guide in this section, it's pinned.

[netbean]

yep very good detailed that breeding guide, will check it for sure when i start the breeding process for my pokemons. For flamethrower i will wait for charlotte, and for energy ball well cannot get it in ep 14 i see for chandelure, so will go with another move

[netbean]

This one's tricky. It really doesn't get a lot of good stuff, but I think I have a sets. It sounds like I'm nuts, but actually works really well. Well, it's sink-or-swim, actually, it depends if you can set up your buffs properly.

Stockpile/Curse, Rollout, Ice Ball, Waterfall/Surf with a Wide/Zoom Lens. .....don't look at me like that, I'm sane. I tried it, and it really does work. Yes, Rollout.

-Stockpile to get your defenses up, which won't be too tough since it's rather bulky already, and you need it since you'll be locked into a move for 5 turns straight, can't even use items. Curse can get your attack up, but buffs on both sides would be much better and you'll be hitting hard anyways.

-Rollout and Ice Ball are both moves that hit a max 480 power if they keep hitting. Now, people avoid these moves because they start out at a low 30 Base Power, doubling every time, but having only 90% accuracy. Sure, if you run a calc, there's only a 59% chance to hit all uses of Rollout/Ice Ball.

BUT!!! If you give it a Wide Lens, accuracy of it is boosted to 99% per use, giving you less than a 5% chance of not getting all five hits of. With a Zoom Lens, there is no chance of missing (though there may be slower foes, so Wide Lens are much safer).

-For a nature, Brave would be ideal if you want to use Zoom Lens, but you won't outspeed too many foes anyways, so it's fine either way, but Adamant/Sassy/Relaxed/Impish/Careful all work too.

I was wondering after checking bulbapedia, wouldnt it be better to get defense curl over stockpile since defense curl doubles the damage from rollout and ice ball? Also going for waterfall over surf since i will probably go adamant nature

Edited January 1, 2015 by netbean

[Etesian]

I was wondering after checking bulbapedia, wouldnt it be better to get defense curl over stockpile since defense curl doubles the damage from rollout and ice ball? Also going for waterfall over surf since i will probably go adamant nature

It leaves you vulnerable on the Special side. If that's what you're after, Curse would be much better, since 2 Curses give you the same power boost D-Curl would give you, but you can go for more than 2 Curses (DC only buffs Rollout's and IB's power once).

Hey, if you want, you can run Curse instead of Waterfall for the power-boosts, the only coverage you'd lose would be against Steel types and Keldeo.

[dondon151]

Defense Curl is better than Stockpile because of the 2x damage modifier on Rollout and Ice Ball. DC also doesn't require breeding.

I'm not even sure that Rollout is worth running when you have STAB on Ice Ball. If you're going to be locked into a move for 5 turns, Ice Ball is usually going to do more damage unless the opponent has many Pokemon that resist Ice Ball and are neutral or weak to Rollout.

Edited January 2, 2015 by dondon151

[netbean]

Chandelure gets both Energy Ball via Petilil/Lotad>Phantump>Litwick or Swirlix>Castform>Litwick and Flamthrower via TM later or, if you want it now, Growlithe/Vulpix/Houndour/Numel/Torkoal/Tepig/Skuntank/Litleo>Snubbull>Swirlix>Castform>Litwick. Something like Hidden Power Ground/Fighting (maybe even Ice) or STAB Shadow Ball would be great on it too.

-And definitely give it the Trick Room TM later.

-Oh, and Modest/Timid work best.

Sorry for disturbing you again, but i had another question for Chandelure this time. I am not understanding how trick room could help Chandelure. I saw at bulbapedia that it got a base speed of 80, which i think its over the average. I checked another site (veekun) and i saw that there are around 150 pokemons that got a higher base speed but around 450 that got less base speed, so using probability i thought that there will be more cases that Chandelure will outspeed other pokemons than get outspeeded. He will have timid nature too.

I think i got the same question for Sigilyph (base speed of 97) too

PS: For walrein, i still have time to think about its moveset since i havent reach ingame the region where i catch it but thnx for the feedback for both of ya

Edited January 2, 2015 by netbean

[dondon151]

Chandelure is better off without Trick Room and with speed investment. It'll outspeed most opponent Pokemon in-game and what it doesn't outspeed can be beaten with an X Speed. X Speed and Trick Room both require a turn to set up, but using a nature and EV spread that complement Trick Room will hamstring Chandelure in battles where it normally wouldn't need Trick Room.

Edited January 2, 2015 by dondon151

[Etesian]

Defense Curl is better than Stockpile because of the 2x damage modifier on Rollout and Ice Ball. DC also doesn't require breeding.

I'm not even sure that Rollout is worth running when you have STAB on Ice Ball. If you're going to be locked into a move for 5 turns, Ice Ball is usually going to do more damage unless the opponent has many Pokemon that resist Ice Ball and are neutral or weak to Rollout.

2x is the most damage-boosting you can get out of D-Curl, so Curse is much better, since it boosts your attack past that (and Walrein doesn't need it's already low speed). 2 Curses give the same power boost as 1 D-Curl, but with double the defense boost, and you can further boost your attack and defense.

But this set is worthless against any Special attackers without Stockpile's boosts to SP.Def, and power boosts aren't even that necessary. From turn 3, you've already got 120BP, then 240, then 480. All but the world's bulkiest foes (or some Steel types) wouldn't be killed by that, and with the defense boosts on both sides, getting to turn 3 is nooooooo problem at all.

And Rollout gives it a lot better coverage and works with the set well. Also, what else would you give it? It really doesn't get any other moves that fit with this set well.

Sorry for disturbing you again, but i had another question for Chandelure this time. I am not understanding how trick room could help Chandelure. I saw at bulbapedia that it got a base speed of 80, which i think its over the average. I checked another site (veekun) and i saw that there are around 150 pokemons that got a higher base speed but around 450 that got less base speed, so using probability i thought that there will be more cases that Chandelure will outspeed other pokemons than get outspeeded. He will have timid nature too.

I think i got the same question for Sigilyph (base speed of 97) too

PS: For walrein, i still have time to think about its moveset since i havent reach ingame the region where i catch it but thnx for the feedback for both of ya

First, EVs. If you're not EV-training, you'll be surprised by what can manage to outspeed you, since gym leaders have EVs, IVs and set natures since E13. A full-EV Timid Rotom-W (86 Base Speed) outspeeds a no-investment neutral-nature Crobat (130 Base Speed). If you're not EV training, it'll be quite hard to outspeed foes.

On the other hand, no IV Quiet Chandelure (80 Base Speed) outslows neutral-natured Trevenant (56 Base Speed). Also keep in mind that of those 450, the vast majority is unevolved.

For Sigilyph, it doesn't benefit from Trick Room itself (unless you're facing some really fast foes), but I was think of having it set TR for the others who can utilize it.

[netbean]

Hmm i see your logic here, not bad

Still havent caught neither litwick or sigilyph and still dont have the trick room TM so, still no need to worry for my choice, but it will come soon i guess

But in the end, i think i might give to only one of these 2 pokemons the TR move

Edited January 2, 2015 by netbean

[Etesian]

Hmm i see your logic here, not bad

Still havent caught neither litwick or sigilyph and still dont have the trick room TM so, still no need to worry for my choice, but it will come soon i guess

But in the end, i think i might get just one of these 2 pokemons with TR

Sure thing. No need to give both of them TR right away, I was thinking of Sigilyph only being back-up, in case of an unfortunate match-up for Chandelure.

[dondon151]

2x is the most damage-boosting you can get out of D-Curl, so Curse is much better, since it boosts your attack past that (and Walrein doesn't need it's already low speed). 2 Curses give the same power boost as 1 D-Curl, but with double the defense boost, and you can further boost your attack and defense.

But this set is worthless against any Special attackers without Stockpile's boosts to SP.Def, and power boosts aren't even that necessary. From turn 3, you've already got 120BP, then 240, then 480. All but the world's bulkiest foes (or some Steel types) wouldn't be killed by that, and with the defense boosts on both sides, getting to turn 3 is nooooooo problem at all.

The 2x damage modifier takes effect after 1 DC but requires 2 Curses. DC gets there faster, obviously...

In practice you don't need +spdef boosts to start an Ice Ball sweep. If you DC + Ice Ball, the first opponent is getting KO'd twice as quickly, so it's not like +spdef really helps in this scenario considering that Walrein ends up taking damage while setting up anyway. You assert that the damage modifier isn't necessary, but I maintain that it is. A 2x damage modifier should get you an OHKO one turn sooner. 120 BP doesn't OHKO very much (especially coming off Walrein's atk stat), but 240 BP OHKOs a lot more. A Pokemon that wouldn't be OHKO'd by a resisted 240 BP attack might be OHKO'd by a resisted 480 BP attack.

You can run any number of moves over Rollout that would be more useful. Blizzard, Encore, Bulldoze... Even running Curse + DC would be better because using each move once results in an overall 3x damage modifier to Ice Ball, which is better than 2 Curses. I don't think Curse is overall a great option on Walrein because 65 base speed still outspeeds a good amount of opponent Pokemon, and you don't want Walrein's only boosting move to give up that advantage.

First, EVs. If you're not EV-training, you'll be surprised by what can manage to outspeed you, since gym leaders have EVs, IVs and set natures since E13. A full-EV Timid Rotom-W (86 Base Speed) outspeeds a no-investment neutral-nature Crobat (130 Base Speed). If you're not EV training, it'll be quite hard to outspeed foes.

This doesn't invalidate my X Speed argument, and the vast majority of trainers that the player faces in the game aren't gym leaders or even boss battles - they're mook trainers with likely unoptimized EV spreads and NFE Pokemon.

The problem here is that it doesn't matter what could outspeed you; it only matters what does outspeed you. Blake's Rotom-F didn't outspeed my Diggersby, and this Diggersby's speed EVs came only from natural progression through the game (it was L73 at the time, but outleveling opponents isn't uncommon). Radomus's Gardevoir didn't outspeed Diggersby, either, and it was at least 5 levels higher than Diggersby. Diggersby is base 78 speed with sub-optimal investment. Chandelure, at base 80 speed, with better speed investment can outspeed a lot more Pokemon.

Don't run Trick Room on Chandelure in-game. Trick Room on Chandelure in-game is bad. Don't bother running Trick Room on Sigilyph, either; Tailwind is so much more flexible.

Edited January 2, 2015 by dondon151

[Etesian]

The 2x damage modifier takes effect after 1 DC but requires 2 Curses. DC gets there faster, obviously...

In practice you don't need +spdef boosts to start an Ice Ball sweep. If you DC + Ice Ball, the first opponent is getting KO'd twice as quickly, so it's not like +spdef really helps in this scenario considering that Walrein ends up taking damage while setting up anyway. You assert that the damage modifier isn't necessary, but I maintain that it is. A 2x damage modifier should get you an OHKO one turn sooner. 120 BP doesn't OHKO very much (especially coming off Walrein's atk stat), but 240 BP OHKOs a lot more. A Pokemon that wouldn't be OHKO'd by a resisted 240 BP attack might be OHKO'd by a resisted 480 BP attack.

You can run any number of moves over Rollout that would be more useful. Blizzard, Encore, Bulldoze... Even running Curse + DC would be better because using each move once results in an overall 3x damage modifier to Ice Ball, which is better than 2 Curses. I don't think Curse is overall a great option on Walrein because 65 base speed still outspeeds a good amount of opponent Pokemon, and you don't want Walrein's only boosting move to give up that advantage.

This doesn't invalidate my X Speed argument, and the vast majority of trainers that the player faces in the game aren't gym leaders or even boss battles - they're mook trainers with likely unoptimized EV spreads and NFE Pokemon.

The problem here is that it doesn't matter what could outspeed you; it only matters what does outspeed you. Blake's Rotom-F didn't outspeed my Diggersby, and this Diggersby's speed EVs came only from natural progression through the game (it was L73 at the time, but outleveling opponents isn't uncommon). Radomus's Gardevoir didn't outspeed Diggersby, either, and it was at least 5 levels higher than Diggersby. Diggersby is base 78 speed with sub-optimal investment. Chandelure, at base 80 speed, with better speed investment can outspeed a lot more Pokemon.

Don't run Trick Room on Chandelure in-game. Trick Room on Chandelure in-game is bad. Don't bother running Trick Room on Sigilyph, either; Tailwind is so much more flexible.

It's true that DC gets you more immediate strength, but Walrein likely won't even make it to turn 3 of IB with just one Defense boost, which is especially true against special attackers. Plus it's very bulky, especially after defense boosts, so you can take your time setting up comfortably.

Your argument is that the double strength gets you a kill one turn sooner, but if you get your defenses up, waiting that extra turn is no issue at all. And makes it much more likely that you'll be able to live long enough to get all 5 IB hits, heal up and go again. Without any Special defense, you can count yourself lucky if you can get to even turn 3.

For the other moves you listed, Blizzard has terrible accuracy and is the same type as IB, making it completely pointless. Encore would see very little use, considering that the vast majority of important foes won't bother with non-attacking moves anyways. And Bulldoze is just bad, it's very weak and has an effect you won't even care about, because Walrein doesn't mind taking a hit since it's bulky.

65 Speed is also bad since the majority of foes will be outspeeding you, but then again, you don't have to care, since Walrein doesn't mind taking hits.

I really don't see why trainers which aren't gym leaders or major foes deserve to even be mentioned. Have you ever come close to losing to even one of them?

And no one ever stated that everything runs max-speed, only a lunatic would do that for a Rotom, same goes for non-Mega Gardevoir.

And how about addressing outslowing foes? Only things from 56 Base Speed downward can outslow no-IV Quiet Chandelure, and there's way more fully evolved Pokemon faster than Trevenant than there are slower. Chandelure can outslow a lot more than it can outspeed.

[dondon151]

It's true that DC gets you more immediate strength, but Walrein likely won't even make it to turn 3 of IB with just one Defense boost, which is especially true against special attackers. Plus it's very bulky, especially after defense boosts, so you can take your time setting up comfortably.

This is very false; multiple defensive boosts have diminishing returns. Against a physical attacker whom Walrein underspeeds:

- Walrein sustains the equivalent of 3 enemy attacks over 4 turns with 1 DC into Ice Ball

- Walrein sustains the equivalent of 3.37 enemy attacks over 7 turns with 3 Stockpiles into Ice Ball

Walrein is sustaining less damage overall with the DC paradigm, and it's also doing more damage. The only two advantages of Stockpile are the +spdef boosts and the easier potential to use a healing item after setting up defensively.

I suggested running both DC and Curse, which is better than running either by itself. One could also run both DC and Stockpile. Both options are probably better than Rollout.

Your argument is that the double strength gets you a kill one turn sooner, but if you get your defenses up, waiting that extra turn is no issue at all. And makes it much more likely that you'll be able to live long enough to get all 5 IB hits, heal up and go again. Without any Special defense, you can count yourself lucky if you can get to even turn 3.

If battles last longer, critical hits are more likely to happen, and a critical hit can ruin Walrein's sweep. Offense reigns supreme in-game.

For the other moves you listed, Blizzard has terrible accuracy and is the same type as IB, making it completely pointless. Encore would see very little use, considering that the vast majority of important foes won't bother with non-attacking moves anyways. And Bulldoze is just bad, it's very weak and has an effect you won't even care about, because Walrein doesn't mind taking a hit since it's bulky.

Blizzard: it's not completely pointless. It's an Ice-type STAB that doesn't lock you into using it for 5 consecutive turns. Redundant attacks are discouraged as a general rule, but exceptions exist, particularly for in-game movesets. I would rather have Ice Beam instead of Blizzard, but Walrein doesn't learn Ice Beam by level up.

Encore: not true, lol, especially with how bad the AI is in E14.

Bulldoze: use Bulldoze, outspeed on the next turn, KO with Waterfall or the first hit of Ice Ball. This is not a bad option. You said earlier that Walrein doesn't have the bulk to use Ice Ball without defensive assistance, and then you contradicted yourself here by saying that Walrein has the bulk to take a hit. Which one is it?

I really don't see why trainers which aren't gym leaders or major foes deserve to even be mentioned. Have you ever come close to losing to even one of them?

Yes, the tag battles in E13 and onwards are not a walk in the park.

Minor trainers make up more than 80% of mandatory trainer battles. Why don't they deserve to be mentioned? Shouldn't an in-game team be designed to optimize all battles, not just the ones you deem important?

And no one ever stated that everything runs max-speed, only a lunatic would do that for a Rotom, same goes for non-Mega Gardevoir.

You cited Rotom-W vs. Crobat as an example to support your assertion that Chandelure would get regularly outsped. Your example isn't representative of what the player actually faces in-game. With only modest speed investment, both of these Pokemon would have outsped Diggersby, but they didn't. My point was that base 80 speed is not slow by in-game standards, and I consider my evidence to be superior to yours.

And how about addressing outslowing foes? Only things from 56 Base Speed downward can outslow no-IV Quiet Chandelure, and there's way more fully evolved Pokemon faster than Trevenant than there are slower. Chandelure can outslow a lot more than it can outspeed.

I already addressed this. The problem with a Trick Room build is that Chandelure is hamstrung into underspeeding everything, including Pokemon in minor trainer battles. In order to make Chandelure functional in major battles, the player has made it worse in minor battles. To summarize:

- Trick Room Chandelure either gets outsped without Trick Room or requires Trick Room setup in every battle

- Non-TR Chandelure outspeeds most enemies without X Speed and requires X Speed setup in some battles

The second option is clearly better.

Edited January 2, 2015 by dondon151

[Etesian]

This is very false; multiple defensive boosts have diminishing returns. Against a physical attacker whom Walrein underspeeds:

- Walrein sustains the equivalent of 3 enemy attacks over 4 turns with 1 DC into Ice Ball

- Walrein sustains the equivalent of 3.37 enemy attacks over 7 turns with 3 Stockpiles into Ice Ball

Walrein is sustaining less damage overall with the DC paradigm, and it's also doing more damage. The only two advantages of Stockpile are the +spdef boosts and the easier potential to use a healing item after setting up defensively.

I suggested running both DC and Curse, which is better than running either by itself. One could also run both DC and Stockpile. Both options are probably better than Rollout.

If battles last longer, critical hits are more likely to happen, and a critical hit can ruin Walrein's sweep. Offense reigns supreme in-game.

Blizzard: it's not completely pointless. It's an Ice-type STAB that doesn't lock you into using it for 5 consecutive turns. Redundant attacks are discouraged as a general rule, but exceptions exist, particularly for in-game movesets. I would rather have Ice Beam instead of Blizzard, but Walrein doesn't learn Ice Beam by level up.

Encore: not true, lol, especially with how bad the AI is in E14.

Bulldoze: use Bulldoze, outspeed on the next turn, KO with Waterfall or the first hit of Ice Ball. This is not a bad option. You said earlier that Walrein doesn't have the bulk to use Ice Ball without defensive assistance, and then you contradicted yourself here by saying that Walrein has the bulk to take a hit. Which one is it?

Yes, the tag battles in E13 and onwards are not a walk in the park.

Minor trainers make up more than 80% of mandatory trainer battles. Why don't they deserve to be mentioned? Shouldn't an in-game team be designed to optimize all battles, not just the ones you deem important?

You cited Rotom-W vs. Crobat as an example to support your assertion that Chandelure would get regularly outsped. Your example isn't representative of what the player actually faces in-game. With only modest speed investment, both of these Pokemon would have outsped Diggersby, but they didn't. My point was that base 80 speed is not slow by in-game standards, and I consider my evidence to be superior to yours.

I already addressed this. The problem with a Trick Room build is that Chandelure is hamstrung into underspeeding everything, including Pokemon in minor trainer battles. In order to make Chandelure functional in major battles, the player has made it worse in minor battles. To summarize:

- Trick Room Chandelure either gets outsped without Trick Room or requires Trick Room setup in every battle

- Non-TR Chandelure outspeeds most enemies without X Speed and requires X Speed setup in some battles

The second option is clearly better.

Why would you stop at 3 Stockpiles? You can't stop to heal during Ice Ball, so it's best to ensure survival by going all the way. So it's +6 from DC as opposed to +6/+6 from Stockpile. There's also nothing stopping you from healing every now and then while buffing with either move, so you'd be getting the same phys-defense and substantially different spec-defense, which allows it to do less damage (or rather "lose a turn"), since nothing would stop it from keeping up the attacks after defensive buffs are up.

First you suggest even more buffing moves, then you say offense reigns supreme. Critical hits are a problem with both DC and Stockpile, so I don't see why it's worth mentioning, considering we're discussing which move to run here.

For Blizzard, it doesn't matter that you're not locked into it. At max defenses, you can afford to get locked into a move.

The AI can't choose a move it doesn't have, and the majority of important foes' teams' doesn't have any non-attacking moves. Do tell how Charlotte team which doesn't have a single non-attacking move, would use a non-attacking move, which you could then lock into.

I didn't contradict myself. I only said Walrein has the bulk to take A hit, not five. Bulldoze would also only help with the current foe. Also, you're saying Walrein can KO with the first hit of Ice Ball? Really?

Minor trainers aren't worth mentioning because they're much easier than the important battles. I have yet to hear on anyone stuck on some random trainer, because they're not even challenging. They're walking XP bundles.

Maybe your Diggersby happened to end up with high Speed EVs and/or a boosting nature, but that doesn't disprove my claim, a claim based numerical proof, facts built utilizing the game's stat-calculation formula. You also said "With only modest speed investment", but I'll repeat it, no one runs any Speed on Rotom.

In fact, Jolly Diggersby with 0 Speed EVs outspeeds neutral-nature Rotom-C. Neutral-nature Diggersby with only 64 Speed EVs has the same Speed as neutral-natured Rotom-C.

If your Diggersby was neither +Speed-natured nor did it have at least 64 Speed EVs, something's wrong with your game, because that would mean you've broken the game's stat-calculation formula.

Ah, so you do admit that TR Chandelure is better in important battles than regular Chandelure. Once more, minor battles are just that, minor, unimportant, not a challenge.

Also, looking at both of your options, both require a turn of set-up. However there's no denying that OP has quite a few slow things on his team, which would benefit greatly from having Trick Room support. While Heracross would be utterly worthless against someone like Ciel (whenever we get to her) due to Speed, in TR it could just spam Stone Edge/Rock Slide and basically earn a free badge.

There's also the matter of whether OP EV-trains, which is something not a whole lot of people decide to do. And even if he does, both options you've listed require a turn of set-up, making them essentially the same, but with TR, EVs can be put into something else, Chandelure with Health investment is far from rare.

[dondon151]

Why would you stop at 3 Stockpiles? You can't stop to heal during Ice Ball, so it's best to ensure survival by going all the way. So it's +6 from DC as opposed to +6/+6 from Stockpile. There's also nothing stopping you from healing every now and then while buffing with either move, so you'd be getting the same phys-defense and substantially different spec-defense, which allows it to do less damage (or rather "lose a turn"), since nothing would stop it from keeping up the attacks after defensive buffs are up.

You missed the point. If you Stockpile up to +6, you could've alternatively completed a full round of Ice Ball after a DC. You end up using 5 turns to boost the spdef stat while Walrein has a chance to sustain a critical hit, and the boosts may not even be important. DC alone is much better than any of the options, and DC + Curse is better than DC + Rollout.

Can Stockpile even boost up to +6? Doesn't it fail after 3 stages?

First you suggest even more buffing moves, then you say offense reigns supreme. Critical hits are a problem with both DC and Stockpile, so I don't see why it's worth mentioning, considering we're discussing which move to run here.

Yes, offense does reign supreme. That's why DC is the best and Curse is better than Rollout.

For Blizzard, it doesn't matter that you're not locked into it. At max defenses, you can afford to get locked into a move.

Until Walrein gets crit, or you decide that it's better to switch out, or it goes up against an opponent that doesn't require DCBall, etc.

Don't forget that you are making the case that Rollout is a better option than Blizzard. Explain why Rollout is a better option than Blizzard. In your paradigm, damage output doesn't matter, because you want to Stockpile to +6 or whatever the maximum is and spam Ice Ball without heed for sustained damage. With this set of assumptions, you can't make a reasonable argument to justify the claim that Rollout is superior to any of the alternatives that I suggested.

The AI can't choose a move it doesn't have, and the majority of important foes' teams' doesn't have any non-attacking moves. Do tell how Charlotte team which doesn't have a single non-attacking move, would use a non-attacking move, which you could then lock into.

If you're going to cherrypick examples to suit your purposes, I raise you Terra's Nidoking. Are you implying that Charlotte not having any status moves is proof that Encore has no use in any circumstance? Please.

I didn't contradict myself. I only said Walrein has the bulk to take A hit, not five. Bulldoze would also only help with the current foe. Also, you're saying Walrein can KO with the first hit of Ice Ball? Really?

After a Bulldoze? It depends on the opponent.

Minor trainers aren't worth mentioning because they're much easier than the important battles. I have yet to hear on anyone stuck on some random trainer, because they're not even challenging. They're walking XP bundles.

Minor trainers make up >80% of the game. Pokemon and their movesets are judged over how they perform for the entire game, not just for battles that you think are important. If I were to make a topic asking for help optimizing a minor trainer battle, would that disprove your point?

Maybe your Diggersby happened to end up with high Speed EVs and/or a boosting nature, but that doesn't disprove my claim, a claim based numerical proof, facts built utilizing the game's stat-calculation formula. You also said "With only modest speed investment", but I'll repeat it, no one runs any Speed on Rotom.

In fact, Jolly Diggersby with 0 Speed EVs outspeeds neutral-nature Rotom-C. Neutral-nature Diggersby with only 64 Speed EVs has the same Speed as neutral-natured Rotom-C.

If your Diggersby was neither +Speed-natured nor did it have at least 64 Speed EVs, something's wrong with your game, because that would mean you've broken the game's stat-calculation formula.

Dude, I posted a topic with the Diggersby's EVs, IVs, nature, and moveset captured in a screenshot.

@ bold: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/rotom-wash I see 2 sets for Rotom-W that run speed and 4 sets for Rotom-M that run speed. No one runs speed on Rotom?

Ah, so you do admit that TR Chandelure is better in important battles than regular Chandelure. Once more, minor battles are just that, minor, unimportant, not a challenge.

I admitted no such thing. Normal Chandelure and TR Chandelure require the same amount of setup in major battles.

However there's no denying that OP has quite a few slow things on his team, which would benefit greatly from having Trick Room support. While Heracross would be utterly worthless against someone like Ciel (whenever we get to her) due to Speed, in TR it could just spam Stone Edge/Rock Slide and basically earn a free badge.

Slow things like Noivern, Flygon, Arcanine, Drapion, and Sigilyph? Slow things like Barbaracle after a Shell Smash? Is the rest of the team supposed to be designed to work in Trick Room?

[Etesian]

You missed the point. If you Stockpile up to +6, you could've alternatively completed a full round of Ice Ball after a DC. You end up using 5 turns to boost the spdef stat while Walrein has a chance to sustain a critical hit, and the boosts may not even be important. DC alone is much better than any of the options, and DC + Curse is better than DC + Rollout.

Can Stockpile even boost up to +6? Doesn't it fail after 3 stages?

Yes, offense does reign supreme. That's why DC is the best and Curse is better than Rollout.

Until Walrein gets crit, or you decide that it's better to switch out, or it goes up against an opponent that doesn't require DCBall, etc.

Don't forget that you are making the case that Rollout is a better option than Blizzard. Explain why Rollout is a better option than Blizzard. In your paradigm, damage output doesn't matter, because you want to Stockpile to +6 or whatever the maximum is and spam Ice Ball without heed for sustained damage. With this set of assumptions, you can't make a reasonable argument to justify the claim that Rollout is superior to any of the alternatives that I suggested.

If you're going to cherrypick examples to suit your purposes, I raise you Terra's Nidoking. Are you implying that Charlotte not having any status moves is proof that Encore has no use in any circumstance? Please.

After a Bulldoze? It depends on the opponent.

Minor trainers make up >80% of the game. Pokemon and their movesets are judged over how they perform for the entire game, not just for battles that you think are important. If I were to make a topic asking for help optimizing a minor trainer battle, would that disprove your point?

Dude, I posted a topic with the Diggersby's EVs, IVs, nature, and moveset captured in a screenshot.

@ bold: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/rotom-wash I see 2 sets for Rotom-W that run speed and 4 sets for Rotom-M that run speed. No one runs speed on Rotom?

I admitted no such thing. Normal Chandelure and TR Chandelure require the same amount of setup in major battles.

Slow things like Noivern, Flygon, Arcanine, Drapion, and Sigilyph? Slow things like Barbaracle after a Shell Smash? Is the rest of the team supposed to be designed to work in Trick Room?

You could've completed a full round of Ice Ball by then, if you weren't getting hit in the process. Defense boosts at least let you complete one set, a single DC defense boost won't be doing a lot, especially since you'll be getting outsped all the time.

It's just as susceptible to getting critted with DC. Or with any set. Crits are gonna ruin Walrein's day, whatever you run and nothing can be done about that. Whether you get critted after setting up and Ice Balling or if you Ice Ball right of the bat, it'd most likely die anyways, neither your nor my set could do anything against that, what's the point of taking that into account? Yeah, my set has no way of dealing with crits, but neither does yours.

Blizzard is the much weaker alternative of Ice Ball. The only reason you'd ever use Blizzard over IB is so you wouldn't get locked in. The only advantages of not being locked in are being able to switch out (which you likely wouldn't do because you've likely already set up and, in a gym battle, all foes have very similar types, so a better match-ups isn't something to hope for), use healing items (which can wait till IB is done if you've set up your defenses) and switching moves (which isn't necessary, because those moves would either be set-up moves, which you would use before attacking, or any other attacking moves, which would be much weaker), so being locked in is no problem.

And Rollout is the best secondary attack for it because it works exactly like Ice Ball, but with a different typing, thus it works very well with the set and it can be stronger than IB depending on the foe (though it's plenty strong on it's own already, stronger than any of the moves you suggested).

You follow up "If you're going to cherrypick examples to suit your purposes" with one example? And don't exaggerate, I never said the move is worthless, just that it'd be incredibly difficult to use, not only because Walrein's low speed means you'd have to predict exactly when your foe would use such a move, but also because they're incredibly rare. Compared to Poke's with status moves, all-out attackers are like sand at the beach.

Against a foe with paper-thin defenses, the first Ice Ball might be enough to kill, but it most likely won't be, so it'd be : You get hit, You hit Bulldoze, You hit with IB, You get hit, You hit with IB, and that's assuming you do outspeed, which is rather unlikely. You'd have more power by just going with IB right of the bat, and I'll say it again, it does nothing for the next foe. It'd be better to build up IB's power by the time the second foe comes out to beat it in one hit, rather than using a weak IB and killing in 2.

I never said they're unimportant because they're few, like you seem to be claiming I said. They don't matter because they're, like I've already said, easy. So very easy. Unless you're running around with 6 Sunkern, I doubt any random trainer would give you trouble, you'd "perform well", because almost anything would work on them.

Riiiiiight, sorry for not stalking your every move on this site and memorizing it. If you did outspeed said Rotom, you were either over-leveled by quite a bit, or it had a -Speed Nature.

And I took a look at said sets, all of which are either Choiced (and pretty much everything runs max Speed with Choice items) or they have exactly the same low 44 EVs, clearly stated to only be there to outspeed one thing. Other than that, only a Doubles Rotom-H runs more than 44 EVs and isn't Choiced.

"I already addressed this. The problem with a Trick Room build is that Chandelure is hamstrung into underspeeding everything, including Pokemon in minor trainer battles. In order to make Chandelure functional in major battles, the player has made it worse in minor battles."

Your words. Which state that TR makes it "functional in major battles".

More like slow stuff like Venusaur, Clefable, Magnezone, Chandelure, Heracross and Walrein, half his team. Nice job being objective and picking only the part of his team that aids your cause. And no, his team isn't designed specifically for Trick Room, no one ever stated that, I don't know why you'd even bother asking. Or ignoring 50% of his team. Are you saying that Heracross example you chose to ignore isn't one in which TR would be greatly beneficial? And before you claim I'm just "cherrypicking", it's an example, there's plenty of such uses for it.

[dondon151]

You could've completed a full round of Ice Ball by then, if you weren't getting hit in the process. Defense boosts at least let you complete one set, a single DC defense boost won't be doing a lot, especially since you'll be getting outsped all the time.

It's just as susceptible to getting critted with DC. Or with any set. Crits are gonna ruin Walrein's day, whatever you run and nothing can be done about that. Whether you get critted after setting up and Ice Balling or if you Ice Ball right of the bat, it'd most likely die anyways, neither your nor my set could do anything against that, what's the point of taking that into account? Yeah, my set has no way of dealing with crits, but neither does yours.

An opponent has a 32.1% chance of critting at least once in 6 attacks, but a 50.8% chance of critting at least once in 11 attacks. One of these is better than the other.

Blizzard is the much weaker alternative of Ice Ball. The only reason you'd ever use Blizzard over IB is so you wouldn't get locked in. The only advantages of not being locked in are being able to switch out (which you likely wouldn't do because you've likely already set up and, in a gym battle, all foes have very similar types, so a better match-ups isn't something to hope for), use healing items (which can wait till IB is done if you've set up your defenses) and switching moves (which isn't necessary, because those moves would either be set-up moves, which you would use before attacking, or any other attacking moves, which would be much weaker), so being locked in is no problem.

And Rollout is the best secondary attack for it because it works exactly like Ice Ball, but with a different typing, thus it works very well with the set and it can be stronger than IB depending on the foe (though it's plenty strong on it's own already, stronger than any of the moves you suggested).

There's no reason to use Rollout at all. If you don't run DC to start with, DC is better than Rollout. If you do run DC to start with, then any other option discussed is more useful than Rollout. Even Stockpile is more useful than Rollout.

Riiiiiight, sorry for not stalking your every move on this site and memorizing it. If you did outspeed said Rotom, you were either over-leveled by quite a bit, or it had a -Speed Nature.

And I took a look at said sets, all of which are either Choiced (and pretty much everything runs max Speed with Choice items) or they have exactly the same low 44 EVs, clearly stated to only be there to outspeed one thing. Other than that, only a Doubles Rotom-H runs more than 44 EVs and isn't Choiced.

You post in almost every thread on this subforum.

Your words. Which state that TR makes it "functional in major battles".

I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I certainly wasn't implying any praise for TR Chandelure. Whatever Chandelure can outspeed under TR, it can also outspeed after an X Speed. X Speed lasts forever as long as Chandelure stays in; TR lasts 5 turns and impedes more than half of TC's team if Chandelure switches out.

More like slow stuff like Venusaur, Clefable, Magnezone, Chandelure, Heracross and Walrein, half his team. Nice job being objective and picking only the part of his team that aids your cause. And no, his team isn't designed specifically for Trick Room, no one ever stated that, I don't know why you'd even bother asking. Or ignoring 50% of his team. Are you saying that Heracross example you chose to ignore isn't one in which TR would be greatly beneficial? And before you claim I'm just "cherrypicking", it's an example, there's plenty of such uses for it.

Venusaur, Chandelure, and Heracross aren't even slow. These three Pokemon can outspeed almost anything with an X Speed. That leaves three Pokemon who would actually benefit from Trick Room, but using a moveslot for Trick Room to support other Pokemon is a terrible idea.

Edited January 3, 2015 by dondon151

[Simon]

Woah, woah guys. You guys gotta remember this is Netbean's team. While the analysis is nice, don't make personal attacks.

Edited January 3, 2015 by ~Derpy Simon