Let us talk - Plotholes

[Cepheus]

As the title says - plotholes!

Plotholes are totally annoying in games and movies, and can utterly destroy the experience of that movie you watch or game you play. (or just make you laugh about it)

That is why I made it a hobby to discover plotholes in movies and games as I play/watch them! (as ridiculous as it sounds!)

I put this in the Gaming General category because I want to talk primarily about plotholes in games!

(If you find it necessary to also talk about movies I'm ok with it, but then a moderator has to move the topic)

RULES:

Since we are talking about plotholes, bear in mind that you have most likely completed the game and that your information may contain SPOILERS for others!

State the name of the game (or movie... if this topic gets moved) and make use of spoiler-tags!

either put your whole post, except the name, in spoilers or just the critical story information, which could be spoiled!

This is a safety meassure to assure that others, who haven't played the game and intend to do so don't get spoiled... obviously... and they can decide for themself if they want to take a look into it.

PLEASE restrain from using the different Mario-games as a subject because "Why would Mario go play Tennis or Karting with Bowser? That is stupid!" ... ... We all know that and my personal explanation lies in Super Mario 3 ... They are all actors and actually very good buddys... (you know Lakitu with the Videocamera??)

--------------------------

Now to my game I want to talk about:

Zero Escape: 9 Persons, 9 Hours, 9 Doors

a short explanation why:

With the release of Reborn Episode 14, there is a somewhat 'famous' reference to that game... I played it before but never managed to complete it, because after 3 endings I somehow lost interest and didn't continue.

Now however I picked it up again and finally completed it with the "True ending", the only one that is canon... and damn this is screwed up... that is why I decided to make this topic.

I will briefly go through the different endings, the characters, what this game is about etc.

So here we go... SPOILER-ALERT:

What is this game?

This game is a so called 'visual-novel'. There is fairly limited actual gameplay, and very very much text. You have to make decissions to choose your path through this adventure... your choices determine the ending you get... how ever there is one ending you have to complete before you can achieve the true ending in the next playthrough.

What is this game about?

You are trapped with 8 other persons inside a sinking ship. You were kidnapped by a Person who calls himself "Zero" to play his little game... you have 9 hours to escape said ship. To do that there are 9 special doors marked with a number from 1-9 thorugh which you have to go and solve the puzzles to discover who "Zero" is and WHY you were brought there. You are 9 Persons... you have 9 Hours... to go thorugh 9 Doors...

However there are a few special-rules...

The Rules:

every Person wears a Bracelet with a number from 1-9... the main-character has the number 5. "Zero" has planted a small explosive in your body, that will explode if you don't obey the rules.

To go through a numbered door, you need at least 3 Persons whos numbers, as a digital root, equals the number on the door. If the numbers digital root is 10 or more, the digital root from that number is drawn until it equals a number from 1-9. A short explanation:

3 People want to enter a door... their numbers are: 3, 5, 8

3+5+8 = 16 -> 1+6 = 7

In this combination they only can go through door 7.

Every door is rigged!

You can open the door, but you can choose not to enter... the will close shortly after anyways. However if you enter the door, a timer starts, which you have to deactivate by finding a terminal in that room... however EVERYONE who helped open the door has to deactivate the timer or... BOOM! the explosive detonates and you are dead!

(However the game takes care of those things itself... sadly... but these rules are very important to understand the game!)

This is clarified by Mr.9 who disobeys the rules in the beginning of the game and blows himself up.

The Characters:

Every character gives themself a nickname acording to their respective number... except you the main character because your childhood friend tells everybody your real name... before agreeing to be called by nicknames.

Number 1 - Ace (man in his best years. has a problem distinguishing facial features)

Number 2 - Snake (Clovers bigger brother, blind)

Number 3 - Santa (Teenage boy, 'lone wolf', cocky)

Number 4 - Clover (Snakes little sister)

Number 5 - Junpei (main-character, you)

Number 6 - June (Your childhood girlfriend)

Number 7 - Seven (big man, sorta-lazy, police-detective)

Number 8 - Lotus (woman in her best years, skilled programmer and hacker)

Number 9 - Mr.9 (referred to... blows up before the nicknames are given)

The endings:

In every ending except the true ending almost everyone dies...

Every ending takes into account that, at one time Snake goes missing and is presumably dead!

If you want to skip right to the plotholes go to the True ending.

Axe-Ending:

After a few puzzles Snake is going missing, and upon opening another door we see an exploded corpse with snakes tattered clothing... Clover get's more sadder and depressed with every minute due to the loss of her brother... later she finds an axe and hides it from everyone until she finally snaps and kills everyone.

Submarine-Ending:

During your adventure you stumble upon a submarine and go back to tell the others

but find the corpses of Clover, Santa and Ace on a staricase and later find a dying June. While hunting down the Killer you find Seven and Lotus dead. Lotus is missing her Bracelet.

That makes everyone dead except you! *gasp*

You make your way to the submarine alone and mentally broken... and then get stabbed from behind and drown near the submarine.

Killer: Ace, who faked his death (because no one checked HIS pulse... idiots)

Knife-Ending:

After a puzzle you meet the others again... but without Clover... you split up to search for her.

Then you stumble upon a dead Lotus, who was stabbed... after realizing someone took her Bracelet you are stabbed in the back and die...

Killer: Ace - confirmed through Submarine ending, that he is the one with the knife.

Syringe-Ending (iOS only):

After Clover sees the dead body of her *brother* she runs off. You are chasing after her and when you finally caught up to her. Clover injects you a Syringe with an anesthesia. You fall into a water and slowly become unconscious and drown.

Coffin Ending:

Nearing the end of your adventure you stumble upon a coffin in a chapel like room... to advance you have to open it... but you don't have any clue how to open it up, because it is locked with a electronic passcode... because a important clue was missed.

This is actually a cliffhanger-ending... presumably everyone dies because the time runs out...

Safe Ending:

You find Clovers dead body in a first class cabin holding the Number 0 Bracelet (which you normally find with the dead captain) and a note in her hand. This note grants access to a Safe and everything it contains.

You deduct that Ace is an evil guy that killed Clover and ATTEMPT to kill Snake. Ace is trying to escape with a hostage. Again in the Chapel-Room You hear a bumping in the coffin which you can open now... and find Snake whos is alive.

Snake goes on a rampage against Ace and they both burn alive in the incinarotor-room. Seven, Lotus and you can escape, but you turn around to go and get the others. You find an unconscious June and then "Zero" contacts you and says that he (Zero himself) lost the game... a gas grenade explodes and knocks you unconscious.

TRUE-Ending:

THIS is the ending that screws everything up! Every Ending makes sense in some way... but this one makes a MESS!

You slowly uncover the truth about everyone who is playing this SECOND 'Nonary Game'. There was one 9 years before. EVERYONE, except you, is somehow connected to the first Nonary Game from 9 years before. While Lotus wasn't directly involved, her twin-daughters participated in that.

The reason why the FIRST Nonary Game was created, by "Cradle Pharmaceuticals", was to allow Ace to tap into the "morphic resonance field" so he could cure his prosopagnosia (the illness that prevents him from distinguish facial features, as stated at the characters above)

We find out that JUNE is in fact "Zero" and that Santa is her brother who helped her setting all this up!

We learn that June was tapping into this "morphic resonance field" to plant information about the first game into your head.

The reason why She set all this up is to get revenge on "Cradle Pharmaceuticals", who kidnapped her 9 years ago for the first game - the employees were Ace, Mr.9, the captain (who you will find dead) and the dead body that is supposed to be *Snake* in one of the puzzle-rooms.

AND, here comes the weird part, to SAVE HER in the past, where she died in the incinerator-room, because she couldn't solve the puzzle back then!

You then help her solving that puzzle in the past... everyone get's out alive... Santa and June vanish... and you learn that you never were on a ship, but inside a replicate building in a dessert... which was used in the first nonary game.

HAPPY ENDING!

Plotholes:

* The morphogenteic Resonance field is some kind of telepathy between two persons... this can apperantly span over long distances and even time periods like past and future

* As I said every ending, except the True-ending, is actually plothole free... because of missing information about the true identity... You could go and say: Ace is Zero because he is the killer most of the time... and Clover just goes insane and on a killing spree...*

The obvious one first - HOW can June be alive, if she died 9 years prior, to set this all up to save her in the past????????

2) If the sole reason is to guide Junpei to the last puzzle, to make him help her in the past... WHY ALL THE TROUBLE? Just bring him there and say... I need your help!

3) Every other ending, even though non-canon, is totally BROKEN! Junpei never reaches the final puzzle to help June in the past... all that setup... unecessary, you killed innocent people and your childhood friend women! although... since he never managed to save you... you shouldn't be alive and therefore this whole thing should have NEVER happened!

4) Everyone, except Junpei and Lotus, participated in the first Nonary Game... HOW COME that no one is like "Oh no... not this shit again?" or "Hey XYZ! I know you from 9 years ago!" etc.

or "We are not on THAT ship because it sank 9 years ago... I bet we are in that stupid replicate building!"

5) If Santa is Junes brother... HOW come Junpei doesn't know him? Did he never meet him in his childhood days? Did June never mention him back then?

6) You want to guide Junpei through all this puzzle until he reaches the final puzzle... and you never wanted anyone other dead except Ace and Mr.9... WHY MAKE EVERYTHING DEADLY and risk killing everyone including your precious Savior???

I mean... why would you put knifes, axes and a damn golden-revolver inside there if you don't want them to kill themselves???

I'm just glad that they incorporated Santa and Junes real-bracelet values (Santa being actually Number 9 and June actually being 0 because her identity as "Zero") into the Door choices... ... yes I re-calculated them all to see if I find another plot-hole in these false-values... but here they made great work... other game producers would might have overssen something like that!

and that it is explained why the 0-Bracelet is actually number 6 (because it is the letter O instead of number 0 in Base ten! 1-9, A =10, B = 11 ... O = 24 -> 2+4 = 6)

And please... don't make me talk about "Virtues last reward"... I didn't play it but I read the plot and the endings... it is even more messed than this...

Soooo... what is your game with the biggest plotholes?

[Gaunt]

Mass Effect 3

The ending has so many plotholes it's not even funny (even after the DLC)

[Knight_Teutonic]

Let's talk about potholes

EDIT: seriously now, I think I could write an entire post about plotholes that I've seen. Such as Dora asking people where's the mountain when it's actually right fucking behind her.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Knight_Teutonic

[AuthorReborn]

You want to talk plot holes? Okay, let's start with something near and dear to all of our hearts: main series Pokemon games. The Villian teams and legendaries. Need I say anymore than the fact that you, a ten year old, can defeat the worst baddies of all time and capture beings of legend only speculated by those who cling to older beliefs? No, I really don't.

Also, while I'm at it, KOTOR 2. LucasArts rushed the development so it would be out for Christmas and then we got an incomplete version riddled with more plotholes than a guy who crosses the mob in an old movie is riddled with bullets.

[Tomas Elliot]

For all the Megaman fans, Megaman Battle Network 4 is a game-long plot hole for the entire franchise, as half of its plot points blatantly conflict with elements of the previous games that were considered to be set in stone, and that returned in later installments.

It is possible to travel freely from a continent to the other to complete the events of what is apparently a round of a tournament, meaning that you can potentially visit the entire world in a single day (compare MBN 2, where an intercontinental travel is threated very realistically, and involves getting the tickets and hopping on an airplane, finding a hotel upon arriving, and the likes).

The Undernet is some sort of internet for criminals of which Megaman has no knowledge and is actually afraid, completely forgetting the fact that he met the creator of the Undernet in previous games, and actually beat him in a battle on one occasion, being recognized by him as the "chosen one" afterward.

The final boss of the game is a giant NetNavi that dwells in an asteroid which is somehow also a computer, completely forgetting the fact that, in previous games, it was clearly stated that the whole concept of NetNavis was invented by the grandfather of the protagonist and perfected by his father, and neither of them ever traveled to space: how can an alien NetNavi exist? It is never explained.

There are other instances. To put it in simplier words: this game sucks.

[Amethyst]

Plotholes:

The obvious one first - HOW can June be alive, if she died 9 years prior, to set this all up to save her in the past????????

2) If the sole reason is to guide Junpei to the last puzzle, to make him help her in the past... WHY ALL THE TROUBLE? Just bring him there and say... I need your help!

3) Every other ending, even though non-canon, is totally BROKEN! Junpei never reaches the final puzzle to help June in the past... all that setup... unecessary, you killed innocent people and your childhood friend women! although... since he never managed to save you... you shouldn't be alive and therefore this whole thing should have NEVER happened!

4) Everyone, except Junpei and Lotus, participated in the first Nonary Game... HOW COME that no one is like "Oh no... not this shit again?" or "Hey XYZ! I know you from 9 years ago!" etc.

or "We are not on THAT ship because it sank 9 years ago... I bet we are in that stupid replicate building!"

5) If Santa is Junes brother... HOW come Junpei doesn't know him? Did he never meet him in his childhood days? Did June never mention him back then?

6) You want to guide Junpei through all this puzzle until he reaches the final puzzle... and you never wanted anyone other dead except Ace and Mr.9... WHY MAKE EVERYTHING DEADLY and risk killing everyone including your precious Savior???

I mean... why would you put knifes, axes and a damn golden-revolver inside there if you don't want them to kill themselves???

And please... don't make me talk about "Virtues last reward"... I didn't play it but I read the plot and the endings... it is even more messed than this...

1: This is something described in VLR. It operates on the mechanic of Schrodinger's Cat. Until what actually happened to her, which no one else knew, is confirmed then she is both alive and dead at the same time in different branches of reality. In this case, something from one branch influenced another, which is pretty much the whole point of VLR.

2-3-6: Also explained in VLR- morphogenetic ability peaks during dangerous situations, so it's necessary to create them. Plus the axe, etc is because it was very much intended to be a death trap... for select people.

4: 1 and 9 knew and recognized each other, hence their interaction, and both of them, for their own protection, chose to keep quiet. 7 had amnesia. 2 was blind and could not recognize 3 and 6. 4 was on the replicated ship in in the first place and didn't know 2,3,6. I don't think I need to clarify 3,6.

The ship is a little less defensible but after awakening in that environment it's natural anyone would be confused, and especially after the water floods their cabins at the start. I don't think any of them could have -confidently- declared it was the replicate ship after that, even 1.

5: This isn't that farfetched. Junpei and June were not amazingly close. I don't know that there's any evidence to suggest he ever became familiar with his family or anything. In fact in asking this you're making a lot of assumptions about their relationship (and for that matter June/Santa's relationship) that I don't recall have been supported by the text (although It's been a while since I played and I may have something?)

Although on the note of VLR I agree that that's not perfect either, but I think the thing I have the most trouble with is

Even if Gravity/Luna/ etc, is altered to match the Radical 6 speed, how in the blazes could the characters not recognize their own mind slowing down? I feel like there are far, far too many factors to possibly account for that.

And here, I feel like this is so blatant I -must- have forgotten something, so fill me in if so. If they were under the slowing effect of R-6 the whole time then what caused the episodes when they did blatantly notice their consciousness fading?

[Shamitako]

Oh god, Cepheus, you know not the monster you have unleashed. Luckily for you, the monster has a lot of work to do and doesn't have time to fit a three hour rant on all the issues with the two or three games she's played that have actual plots into her busy schedule

[Cepheus]

Oh god, Cepheus, you know not the monster you have unleashed. Luckily for you, the monster has a lot of work to do and doesn't have time to fit a three hour rant on all the issues with the two or three games she's played that have actual plots into her busy schedule

Lol xD

Yeah I figured Ame loved these games, and 999 is actually pretty awesome... but for me these things don't make any sense...

1: This is something described in VLR. It operates on the mechanic of Schrodinger's Cat. Until what actually happened to her, which no one else knew, is confirmed then she is both alive and dead at the same time in different branches of reality. In this case, something from one branch influenced another, which is pretty much the whole point of VLR.

2-3-6: Also explained in VLR- morphogenetic ability peaks during dangerous situations, so it's necessary to create them. Plus the axe, etc is because it was very much intended to be a death trap... for select people.

4: 1 and 9 knew and recognized each other, hence their interaction, and both of them, for their own protection, chose to keep quiet. 7 had amnesia. 2 was blind and could not recognize 3 and 6. 4 was on the replicated ship in in the first place and didn't know 2,3,6. I don't think I need to clarify 3,6.

The ship is a little less defensible but after awakening in that environment it's natural anyone would be confused, and especially after the water floods their cabins at the start. I don't think any of them could have -confidently- declared it was the replicate ship after that, even 1.

5: This isn't that farfetched. Junpei and June were not amazingly close. I don't know that there's any evidence to suggest he ever became familiar with his family or anything. In fact in asking this you're making a lot of assumptions about their relationship (and for that matter June/Santa's relationship) that I don't recall have been supported by the text (although It's been a while since I played and I may have something?)

Although on the note of VLR I agree that that's not perfect either, but I think the thing I have the most trouble with is

Even if Gravity/Luna/ etc, is altered to match the Radical 6 speed, how in the blazes could the characters not recognize their own mind slowing down? I feel like there are far, far too many factors to possibly account for that.

And here, I feel like this is so blatant I -must- have forgotten something, so fill me in if so. If they were under the slowing effect of R-6 the whole time then what caused the episodes when they did blatantly notice their consciousness fading?

I can dig all that... but I can only draw from information I got - that is 999 and just the summary of VLR...

I HATE IT when producers (game or movies alike) do that kind of thing - When you only get answers in the sequel... which is sooo underdog in your country, that no ones writes about it and only gets released silently via eShop... and I can't even find it on my 3DS in the eShop...

oh and yeah... I utterly despise these "different timeline" thingies... because of the paradoxes and plotholes that never get explained! and are just "It's a different timeline, just go with it!"

Oh and Santa saw Junes dead body back in the first nonary game... soooo since someone witnessed it, it has to be happened, am I right?

But still... June wanted to kill the 4 employees of "Cradle Pharmaceutical"... she did kill the *Captain* and the *Fake-Snake*. Ace and Mr.9 should die during the Game... ok... I get that! but why endager everyone?

Heard of bluffing? you know - do that and die!

except you won't really die, because I NEED YOU! It's just there to make it seem dangerous... and 9 hours and you'll die because this 'ship' is 'sinking' isn't threatening enough I presume...

Despise that... She cleared the first nonary game alongside the other kids... and can't solve simple SUDOKU-Puzzle??

She is supposed to be highly intelligent with all that stuff she prepared in the game... the puzzle, the clues etc... and she literally can't solve the easiest kind of puzzle herself...

I literally screamed, when I saw that! It was the simplest puzzle of the ENTIRE GAME... In some rooms I was stuck for at least 45 minutes... but that I solved in 5 minutes...

oh and what happens to the bombs in their bodies after they are free??? Do they go to a hospital and be like:

"There is a bomb in my body... can you get it out? Why? oh you know my Childhood-friend wanted me to save her past-self and to do so she threated to blow us all up because our telepathic powers are only strong when our lives are in danger..." -> And... mental asylum... xD

But anyways... since there are at least SOME answers (even though they are very vague) and it is kind of multiple timeline-thingy... It's alright... no more discussions needed... concentrate on things at hand^^

I'll see what I can get for my next Plothole analysis

Edited January 4, 2015 by Amethyst

[CURIE]

How are Meta Knight's two henchmen, Sword Knight and Blade Knight, still alive? They say they met Meta Knight during the war against Nightmare, but that was at least 800 years ago, maybe more! And they weren't Star Warriors like Mexican Knight- I mean Meta Knight was, they they were just regular guys... Did Meta Knight... DO something to them? Because if he did, it could be argued that he's no better than Nightmare Enterprises!

[Azeria]

How are Meta Knight's two henchmen, Sword Knight and Blade Knight, still alive? They say they met Meta Knight during the war against Nightmare, but that was at least 800 years ago, maybe more! And they weren't Star Warriors like Mexican Knight- I mean Meta Knight was, they they were just regular guys... Did Meta Knight... DO something to them? Because if he did, it could be argued that he's no better than Nightmare Enterprises!

Perhaps they collected the 7 Dragon Balls and wished for Immortality!?!??!?!?!

Or their just delusional....

[Maelstrom]

Who knows how long their species lives? Or how long one of their years (time it takes their planet to travel around the sun) is? It's all relative.

[Kanaya]

Also, while I'm at it, KOTOR 2. LucasArts rushed the development so it would be out for Christmas and then we got an incomplete version riddled with more plotholes than a guy who crosses the mob in an old movie is riddled with bullets.

I am such a huge fan of the KoTOR games you don't even know. While KoTOR II was super rushed in order to be pumped out to make sales, I did find a rather enriched and enhanced story from it after installing TSLRP on the PC version which readds tons of the Cut Content into the game. It actually adds quite a bit that was removed from the game, if you get it on PC I would highly advise installing it.

I am however glad they explained what happened to Revan in The Old Republic.

**SPOILERS**

I found it pretty awesome that the true Lord of the Sith who was outside of known space captured Revan and kept him alive up until The Old Republic. I thought that was freaking awesome. I also love how HK-47 managed to be reuinited with him. I wonder how he feels if you romanced Bastilia seeing one of his descendants y'know? I'm talking about Satele Shan. Lol.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sazane

[Cepheus]

**SPOILERS**

I found it pretty awesome that the true Lord of the Sith who was outside of known space captured Revan and kept him alive up until The Old Republic. I thought that was freaking awesome. I also love how HK-47 managed to be reuinited with him. I wonder how he feels if you romanced Bastilia seeing one of his descendants y'know? I'm talking about Satele Shan. Lol.

Did you read the "The Old Republic" Novels? They are awesome!

In the third one, simply called "Revan" depicts how it all happened, and follows the exiled oh her search for him... and we learn the name of the Sith-Emperor/Lord of the Sith!

[Kanaya]

Did you read the "The Old Republic" Novels? They are awesome!

In the third one, simply called "Revan" depicts how it all happened, and follows the exiled oh her search for him... and we learn the name of the Sith-Emperor/Lord of the Sith!

I haven't actually read the Novels, but what happens to him is pretty intense.

**SPOILERS**

Revan married Shan and sank into obscurity for several years until his resurfacing memories led him to leave his wife and unborn child behind in a search for answers in the Unknown Regions. Captured by the Sith, he was imprisoned for three years until a former lieutenant of his named Meetra Surik rescued him with the help of the Sith Lord Scourge. The trio's attempt to eliminate the Sith Emperor failed, and Revan was held captive by the Emperor for three hundred years until he was finally freed by Republic forces. Taking control of the Rakatan Foundry, Revan attempted to construct an army of extermination droids to destroy the Empire, but the Jedi Master died when he was defeated by an Imperial strike team.

However, the torture that he experienced at the hands of the Emperor had splintered Revan's mind, and though part of him attempted to become one with the Force, the rest rejected death and clung to life, embracing the dark side. Taking control of the fanatical Order of Revan, he sought to destroy the Sith Emperor once and for all by bringing the Sith ruler back to a physical form and killing him, but both the Empire and the Republic joined together in an effort to stop him. Revan's light side was unable to pass on and aided the coalition in defeating the dark Revan, and though the Emperor was able to regain his strength, the two halves of Revan merged and were able to die a final death. His legacy, however, would live on; the Sith Lord Darth Rivan, who began the thousand-year-conflict known as the New Sith Wars, named himself after Revan after reading a damaged manuscript about the Sith Lord, and the Sith Lord Darth Bane discovered Revan's Sith holocron on the planet Lehon and used Revan's teachings to develop the Rule of Two philosophy.

Which might I add, Darth Bane is a idiot. The Rule of Two is the biggest mistake the Sith ever made that I'm glad Darth Krayt eventually abolished. Lol

[AuthorReborn]

Drew Karpyshyn is awesome. And yes, I have read "Revan," The Darth Bane Trilogy, "Annihilation" (novel about Theron Shan, another descendent of Revan in the Cold War times). I also have played through KOTOR 2 with the Restored Content/M4-78 mods installed and while I can see how it would help in your first or second play through, it didn't add anything for me because I already knew the game inside and out. I just wish it could be recognized as the moralistic masterpiece it was intended to be. I honestly wouldn't mind if Obsidian did a rerelease or a "remastered" or rereleased the game with the cut content. Sooner rather than later though because the voice actors won't be around forever. This game was supposed to be amazing but it was strangled by LucasArts. Which is now part of Disney. So hopefully no more strangling will occur.