Tomas Elliot Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Introduction Howdy, people of Reborn. Since my last RMT, I've continued my adventures in the NU tier for two reasons: firstly, it is a tier relatively immune from overly long suspect discussions, or at least, from frequent ones (and considering that I strongly believe that most suspect discussions are full of crap, that's great news); secondly, I recently developed a strong liking for Malamar, a Pokemon that really caught my attention in many ways (more on this in the in-depth description) and well, the guy just happens to be in the NU tier. So yeah, I decided to work a bit around the concept of "Contrary sweeper", and this team is the result. At a glance It took me quite a while to decide on this line-up. Initially, the team only included Malamar as a Contrary sweeper, and was geared around spreading paralyzis (Granbull aside, the first version of the team also included Regirock and Qwilfish with Thunder Wave) in order to allow Malamar, back then sporting an Assault Vest set, to sweep. After a while however it became evident that Serperior was becoming more and more ubiquitous in the tier, so I was forced to include a counter for it: after an initial (and quite pitiful, I'll admit it) attempt at using Eviolite Sliggoo to fit the bill, it was soon clear that every team that included both Serperior and a fire-type special attacker (Mega Camerupt in particular) had a chance at breaking through my defenses: my usual NU semi-stall strategy, reliant on Audino to keep everyone healthy, just didn't work together with my attempts at clearing a path for a sweep. And the moment I decided to use Miltank as an anti-Serperior, I found myself once again facing the chronic problem of most of my teams: the lack of a special sweeper. So yeah, in order to fit the Contrary theme I decided to run a Serperior myself as a special sweeper, and that required to completely re-think my team with a new, more offensive mentality. The end result stands before you: of the original members of the team, only Granbull and Malamar were kept, and of them only Granbull kept its original moveset and EV spread. However, I am quite satisfied with the final result, as the test battles seem to indicate that this team is fairly good (do keep in mind that the displayed rating also accounts the many battles I lost with the original line-up, this version is currently on a winning streak...). So yeah, let's see in detail what each member is about, shall we? In-depth analyzis @ SteelixiteAbility: SturdyEVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpDAdamant Nature- Stealth Rock- Earthquake- Heavy Slam- Dragon Tail There has been a moment in my life when I, too, had that hipster mindset of "if everyone run a Pokemon, I shall not!". Nowadays however I have a different mindset: "if everyone run a Pokemon, there must be a damn good reason". And indeed, there is a damn good reason why Mega Steelix (couldn't find anywhere the animated sprite of the Mega form ;-; ) is rapidly becoming NU's premier Ground-type and Stealth Rock user. A Pokemon so bulky it is basically guaranteed to manage to use Stealth Rocks when used as lead (unless your foes run some Fire-type special attacker as lead that is)? A Pokmon so bulky you can invest all of your EVs in offensive presence, because its bulk is immense even uninvested? Yes please! The two STAB moves hit really hard, and Dragon Tail provides some useful phazing to get rid of mons that might try to set up in the big guy's face (SD Feraligatr comes to mind). A set with 31 Speed IVs and Heavy Slam was chosen over a set with 0 Speed IVs and Gyro Ball to have a chance to outspeed Mega Camerupt (whose base Speed is even lower than Steelix's) and OHKO it with EQ: do remember however that, on the turn Mega Evolution occurs, attack order is determined with the stats of the regular forms, and regular Camerupt outspeeds regular Steelix, so be careful. Granted, without Gyro Ball you are trading away the ability to OHKO defensive Xatu as it attempts to switch in to bounce your SR, bu Heavy Slam is still a comfortable 2KO regardless of Roost attempts, and you can still OHKO the offensive set, so yeah... @ LeftoversAbility: IntimidateEVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 DefImpish Nature- Play Rough- Thunder Wave- Protect- Roar In a tier where many Fighting-type physical attackers dwell, a Fairy-type mon with Intimidate is highly appreciated. With Roar to phaze out set-up sweepers, THunder Wave to cripple key threats on the switch in, and Protect to help with prediction and to provide some form of recovery in combination with Leftovers, you will rarely be attacking at all, but should you need to, Play Rough is still a fairly powerful STAB attack with a handy chance to lower the opponent's attack, meaning physical attackers that resist the Fairy type, for example Muk, will have to be careful upon switching in. All in all, there is a reason why Granbull is the only Pokemon I never replaced nor altered since day one! @ LeftoversAbility: Water AbsorbEVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpABold Nature- Scald- Protect- Defog- Toxic This thing is bulky. Like my God, if you time your switches right, it never goes down. It's base Special Defense is so high that, with full HP investiments (gotta keep those HPs in an odd number because of those SR), Mantine will become one hell of a special wall even without investiments in Special Defense. And this allows you to dump those EVs in the physical side, making Mantine very hard to bring down. Immunity to Ground and Water and resistance to Fire make our manta a great switch-in for a plethora of offensive threats, including Feraligatr (whose Ice Punch variant will struggle to deal significant damage, while the EQ variant will be shut down completely), Typhlosion, Magmortar (watch out for Thunderbolt!), Mega Camerupt and even Mega Steelix (Stone Edge is kinda rare on the guy), and most of these threats will be OHKOed or otherwise hurt badly by Scald (and there is also the fact that virtually nothing can switch safely into Scald without Water Absorb, because nothing likes to be burned)... Or you can just use Toxic to put a timer on them. This team isn't particularly weak to Stealth Rock, but Defog is here to keep away more dangerous hazards like Toxic Spikes. @ LeftoversAbility: Sap SipperEVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDAdamant Nature- Body Slam- Earthquake- Milk Drink- Heal Bell Having to pick a Pokemon to counter the ubiquitous Serperior, I went for Miltank because of the greater staying power it boasts over Bouffalant. This set handily beats down any variant of Serperior while also being able to put the hurt on Steel types that think they have nothing to fear from a cow. Miltank's attack is nothing to sniff at, particularly at +1, her bulk is excellent even uninvested (provided you have full HP investiments of course), and between Milk Drink and Heal Bell, it will be hard for opponents to cripple her and force her out... Too bad she cannot touch Mismagius, considering that I have a STAB EQ and a key Superpower in my team I'd rather have a Dark move on Miltank to hit Mismagius rather than EQ to hit Steel types I can kill anyway, but sadly she doesn't learn any good Dark-type move... @ LeftoversAbility: ContraryEVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 SpeTimid Nature- Leaf Storm- Dragon Pulse- Hidden Power [Fire]- Substitute Here it is, the special sweeper of the team and the first half of my Contrary offensive core. Serperior is very difficult to take on if you don't pack a Pokemon with Sap Sipper: once behind a substitute (and given the switches it forces, it isn't hard to get behind a substitute) it can essentially Nasty Plot while spamming an immensely powerful STAB move, which will hurt even Pokemon that resist it... And that will most likely be finished off by a coverage move. As Ground-type Pokemon are destroyed by the STAB and the rare Dragon-type ones are dealt with by Dragon Pulse, HP Fire was preferred over HP Ice to OHKO Ferroseed and other Steel-type mons that think they can take a Leaf Storm (they can, but they'll net me a +2, and I pack HP Fire...). It is important to notice that, with these investiments, Serperior is one of the fastest mons in the tier, so you will have plenty of chances to get behind a sub in order to scout your opponent's moves. This is particularly useful when facing a slower Pokemon that packs Sucker Punch, for example Pawniard. @ Choice ScarfAbility: ContraryEVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 SpeJolly Nature- Superpower- Knock Off- Psycho Cut- Switcheroo And here is the reason why I went through all this just to make a Contrary-themed team. I cannot really explain why I grew to like this guy so much, and in such a short time: maybe it's the look (it looks badass, admit it), maybe it's the fact that it was specifically designed around the Contrary ability (not just in terms of stats and movesets, but also in terms of appearance, Pokedex entry and even evolution method), maybe it's just that everything is squishier with squids. All I know is that I like the guy, and I wanted to make a team that could allow me to end as many battles as possible with a Malamar sweep. Originally, I had a bulky Assault Vest set, but the problem with that was the lackluster moveset: Malamar only has 3 useful attacks, so I was forced to run the worthless Night Slash in the fourth slot (God, how I wish Malamar could learn Sucker Punch...). The Scarf set has multiple advantages over that: for one, it can outspeed stuff and keep on bulking up while spamming a 120 bp move, but there is also the fact that it can actually make use of the fourth move slot, in order to cripple stall-oriented teams with Switcheroo. Knock Off is used to destroy Pokemon that are weak to it and don't expect Malamar to be faster (for example, this makes Malamar a decent check for Mismagius), while Psycho Cut is usually used only after trading away the Scarf, because its lackluster power, its lack of cool added effects (sure it has enhanced crit rate, but you cannot just rely on hax) and the sheer amount of mons that resist it in NU make it a terrible move to lock yourself in. I guess you can use it to catch the opponent's Poison-type on the switch as they predict Superpower, but even then, I'd rather cripple them with Switcheroo (you can always give that Black Sludge to some Eviolite user later...). Conclusions So yeah, here is the team. I hope people will post here to provide feedback, and not to pick a fight with me like in some past occasions... Please do keep in mind that this team, as the title should make sufficiently clear, is all about Contrary Sweepers, so no matter what you do, please do not suggest to remove Serperior/Malamar, or to run them with some non-sweeping set... Importable Steelix @ SteelixiteAbility: SturdyEVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpDAdamant Nature- Stealth Rock- Earthquake- Heavy Slam- Dragon TailGranbull @ LeftoversAbility: IntimidateEVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 DefImpish Nature- Play Rough- Thunder Wave- Protect- RoarMantine @ LeftoversAbility: Water AbsorbEVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpABold Nature- Scald- Protect- Defog- ToxicMiltank (F) @ LeftoversAbility: Sap SipperEVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDAdamant Nature- Body Slam- Earthquake- Milk Drink- Heal BellSerperior @ LeftoversAbility: ContraryEVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 SpeTimid Nature- Leaf Storm- Dragon Pulse- Hidden Power [Fire]- SubstituteMalamar @ Choice ScarfAbility: ContraryEVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 SpeJolly Nature- Superpower- Knock Off- Psycho Cut- Switcheroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelly Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 for phazing on steelix you're better off just having roar so you don't have the chance of missing d-tail. you arent outspeeding anything anyway so all you're missing is the small bit of damage from it i guess. instead of protect, consider running eq on granbull to hit steel types on the switch. klinklang, pawniard, steelix dont appreciate eqs from granbull. one thing i have to say is that this team is pressured by this: Camerupt @ Cameruptite Ability: Sheer Force EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd Modest Nature - Substitute - Fire Blast - Earth Power - Hidden Power Electric mega camel set which is becoming more and more popular. but with serp and malamar you shouldnt have too much problem with it. team looks p solid only a few minor nitpicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I am concerned with Granbull's set. I don't see a reason it should carry both roar and protect. I suppose you will bet on a setup or resisting a hit and switching the foe around, hoping that something that does nothing to Granbull comes in and takes rock damage, but that usually ends in you getting damage that could have been avoided if you switched to one of your walls. In my opinion you should change one of those moves for an attacking move to wear down an opponent not able to cause you much trouble. Since you already have enough of EQ, my suggestions are either Crunch or Rockslide (for awesome coverage and surprise kills). If you are skeptical about the damage they'd make, you can always pack the ever trustworthy Seismic toss. Happy to see that you changed your views on the tank by the name of Mantine and now consider it more than "just another guy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Elliot Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) for phazing on steelix you're better off just having roar so you don't have the chance of missing d-tail. you arent outspeeding anything anyway so all you're missing is the small bit of damage from it i guess. instead of protect, consider running eq on granbull to hit steel types on the switch. klinklang, pawniard, steelix dont appreciate eqs from granbull. one thing i have to say is that this team is pressured by this: Camerupt @ Cameruptite Ability: Sheer Force EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd Modest Nature - Substitute - Fire Blast - Earth Power - Hidden Power Electricmega camel set which is becoming more and more popular. but with serp and malamar you shouldnt have too much problem with it. team looks p solid only a few minor nitpicks. Honestly I've never met a Camerupt with HP Electric... But yes, if I did, all it would take it would be a bit of prediction to blast through Mantine. To be absolutely honest, it's not like I particularly like Mantine at all, I only use it for its set of resistances/immunities: the likes of Typhlosion and Camerupt can blast through any defensive core if backed by Serperior and possibly a physical attacker (Feraligatr?), and well, having a single Pokemon to switch in over and over, chances are it will be worn out in the end (it has actually happened to me in a couple of occasions)... But the problem is, I cannot see the solution. I cannot find a defensive core that can synergize with the 3 Pokemon I have/want to run (Miltank, Serperior, Malamar) and that is able to address all the mentioned threats... It's like that gag with Donald Duck's cloth, that is too short to cover both his feet and his head: every time I find a way to counter a mon, I find myself weak to another! Happy to see that you changed your views on the tank by the name of Mantine and now consider it more than "just another guy". When I called Mantine "just another guy", I meant from an offensive point of view: in other words, what I meant in that thread was that Mantine, even if able to switch into one or more of the members of that team, couldn't really do anything once in, it couldn't really threaten any of my mons! This however is a new team, in a mostly new metagame: incredible how swiftly things can change in a matter of two or three weeks... EDIT: reading again this post it looked a bit messy, so let me clarify one thing. I am not saying that I am not satisfied of my team or that the meta is evolving too fast, nor am I expressing a judgement of any kind, be it positive or negative, about any Pokemon. I am simply saying that 3 out of 6 Pokemon in this team were picked out of necessity, rather than with a strategy in mind: I simply tossed there Granbull, Steelix and Mantine because I felt they could address the larger amount of threats in the current tier possible... And well, I am worried that I might have forgotten something: I generally am not a fan of building teams with theorymoning... As for Nickrash's point about Protect, I am not sure I get it: Protect is used to let the opponent's Scarfer lock itself into a move and switch to an appropriate companion. I am not saying running such a move is a must, nor am I saying that this is the only way to use it, I am simply saying that this is how I use it. I am not sure I understand all the reasoning you made about it... :/ Edited January 12, 2015 by Tomas Elliot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Initially the point was about roar, as the scarfer is definitely going to get locked, so you will have to switch either way. In this case, roar has no use. When you are going to use it, the other pokemon should either get locked to a move that does no damage, so they switch and you force a second switch, or they use another move that can cause harm. If they don't switch, you'll have to endure the damage and then roar to switch them, which I find less productive, as you already have a similar move on Steelix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Elliot Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Initially the point was about roar, as the scarfer is definitely going to get locked, so you will have to switch either way. In this case, roar has no use. When you are going to use it, the other pokemon should either get locked to a move that does no damage, so they switch and you force a second switch, or they use another move that can cause harm. If they don't switch, you'll have to endure the damage and then roar to switch them, which I find less productive, as you already have a similar move on Steelix. Oh ok, I had completly misunderstood then... Well, Roar is a handy move when facing set-up physical sweepers, like Feraligatr and to a lesser extent Malamar (both of which cannot really be dealt with by Steelix, given that they have supereffective moves...). Granted, the standard set for Feraligatr (SD - EQ - AJ - Waterfall) cannot touch Mantine, so I guess I can afford going without Roar... But well, the fact is that I'd rather phaze out opposing problematic mons, rather than attack them with a move that will deal minimal damage anyway... You mentioned "surprise kills" that Granbull supposedly can score with Rock Slide, but exactly what are the Pokemon it can kill? The only Pokemon that likes to switch on Granbull and is weak to Rock is Xatu (at least that's the only one I can think of), but I'd rather run Crunch for that, so that I actually manage to 2ko it without Roost cutting the damage from the second Rock Slide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Rock Slide was the last option from (yet another) EQ and Crunch. I mentioned it having things like Arceops, Articuno, Mantine, Xatu and Camerupt in mind. You can hurt the last two with similar ease and damage with Crunch too. Since it is not offensively invested, it could even work with Seismic toss. You'll see and judge if those moves suit you or not. I am just throwing ideas on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Once Contrary Serperior is officially released (or maybe it already has been) don't expect it to stay NU for long. It'll probably go UU IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Elliot Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Once Contrary Serperior is officially released (or maybe it already has been) don't expect it to stay NU for long. It'll probably go UU IMO. As things stand now, Serperior is monopolizing the tier, with every single team in existance carrying it, a counter to it, or both. So yeah, I definitely wouldn't mind if it left the tier... Fun fact: Serperior is actually PU on Smogon as of now, lower than NU... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuthorReborn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Once Contrary Serperior is officially released (or maybe it already has been) don't expect it to stay NU for long. It'll probably go UU IMO. It has been released in Japan, hence you can use it in official ladder battles. I feel UU is fairly accurate though. Tons of people are saying it'll be OU, but I don't see it. Particularly with mons like Talonflame and Volcorna around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sadly Volcarona is in BL and thus not picked frequently enough. Either way, Serperior boasts a nice speed and its ability will definitely find its uses in the metagame. I don't think it's enough for OU, but time will tell. Sadly it can only use the moveset proposed in the above tea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelly Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Granted, the standard set for Feraligatr (SD - ICE PUNCH - AJ - Waterfall) FTFY. which then can touch mantine. +2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mantine: 153-180 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery mantine can't do much back unless you hope for a burn and have somehow already gotten rid of gatr's lum berry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Elliot Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) FTFY. I run that, as you can see. But I have met many people on the ladder who use EQ instead (or Return, generally Ice Punch seems to be the less popular choice these days for reasons I cannot fathom), and those are what I was talking about in the line you quoted. EDIT: when I say "as you can see", I mean in the in-game-turned-competitive team I am currently testing, which you can see in my signature. I forgot that isn't the one this topic is about @.@ Edited January 13, 2015 by Tomas Elliot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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