Fire type gym is just way too much...

[Claydoll]

From what i've seen from this game, having started quite recently and getting past Charlotte and all that, i don't think any gym leader is due for nerfs so far; i would've liked to see some of the prenerf versions actually. The beauty of this game and, pokemon in general, is that there's an amazing number of strategies you pull off in most situations depending on what you currently have at that given time (even if some are, like the ones i have used, incredibly make-shift) and by the point you reach this specific gym you should be expecting such things and become more invested with the more in-depth mechanics of the game.

So far, the game is great.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Claydoll

[Kemotatnew]

If you want to try some pre-nerf gym leaders just send me a message, because I have some old game versions. You can find there different pkmn too, like sneasel and Pre-first gym Ralts.

[Knight_Teutonic]

Man, this isn't a game for little kids. This game is meant to challenge you, meant to test you, meant to make you adapt, meant to make you better yourself in order to overcome your obstacles. If a player really enjoys the game, they'll either persevere, or they'll go down in flames.

Since this community will be forever divided by people who love making the game look exclusive and hardcore and people who just want to make the game more welcoming and known, ame should then just give the game something like the Easy Mode/Challenge Mode thing from BW2, a normal mode would also be good, since I don't want the game to feel like insurgence or zeta/omicron, which is indeed way too easy.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knight_Teutonic

[Amethyst]

Different modes will be practical only after the game's been finished.

[Qaaz]

Different modes will be practical only after the game's been finished.

If you do that and you want to nerf the leaders more and more AT LAST give for Challenge mode the pre nerfed versions like 100% Accuracy Serra

[Timber Dragon]

It looks like everyone has their own standards for what's a legitimate challenge to overcome, and what's just plain unreasonable. I personally equate nerfing with smoothing out the rougher edges of some of those gym leaders. Not all of us know Pokemon down to its binary, after all. But making a game like Pokemon truly challenging without being unfair is a tricky, sometimes subjective balance. The drawback to having a huge number of potential strategies for taking down an enemy, is that you need to pick one. With so many options, it can be hard to judge whether it's time to abandon a strategy for something else, or if you're not fully utilizing what you already have.

I haven't faced Charlotte (I started my game over to get a feel for all the new content), but based on what everyone's saying about her, she's a good example of it being difficult to judge whether you're on the right track. She's so powerful and brutal that she doesn't give you a lot of leg room to learn potential counters. We're talking about Fire-type moves OHKOing Fire-type Pokemon, and that's just her opening. There's also how Fire-types in general in Reborn can learn plenty of Electric-, Grass-, and Fighting-type moves, making Fire-type one of the most well-covered types in the game (if not the most covered).

So is Charlotte truly OP or does she need some fine-tuning? And this goes way beyond Energy Ball Typhlosion. Is the solution to nerf her, or improve yourself? I really don't think there's a good answer to that. No matter what Ame does, someone's gonna complain. The most I can say to whatever she decides to do, is to just deal with it one way or the other, nerfed or OP. Ame's not gonna satisfy everyone and no one's forcing you to stick to this game. She shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate something that's ultimately up to the player's skill.

Even so... c'mon, some gym leaders are just plain evil.

[Azeria]

It looks like everyone has their own standards for what's a legitimate challenge to overcome, and what's just plain unreasonable. I personally equate nerfing with smoothing out the rougher edges of some of those gym leaders. Not all of us know Pokemon down to its binary, after all. But making a game like Pokemon truly challenging without being unfair is a tricky, sometimes subjective balance. The drawback to having a huge number of potential strategies for taking down an enemy, is that you need to pick one. With so many options, it can be hard to judge whether it's time to abandon a strategy for something else, or if you're not fully utilizing what you already have.

I haven't faced Charlotte (I started my game over to get a feel for all the new content), but based on what everyone's saying about her, she's a good example of it being difficult to judge whether you're on the right track. She's so powerful and brutal that she doesn't give you a lot of leg room to learn potential counters. We're talking about Fire-type moves OHKOing Fire-type Pokemon, and that's just her opening. There's also how Fire-types in general in Reborn can learn plenty of Electric-, Grass-, and Fighting-type moves, making Fire-type one of the most well-covered types in the game (if not the most covered).

So is Charlotte truly OP or does she need some fine-tuning? And this goes way beyond Energy Ball Typhlosion. Is the solution to nerf her, or improve yourself? I really don't think there's a good answer to that. No matter what Ame does, someone's gonna complain. The most I can say to whatever she decides to do, is to just deal with it one way or the other, nerfed or OP. Ame's not gonna satisfy everyone and no one's forcing you to stick to this game. She shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate something that's ultimately up to the player's skill.

Even so... c'mon, some gym leaders are just plain evil.

Considering the fact that she spams Eruption Typloshion she needs to be nerfed a bit..perhaps Make it so that the field doesnt boost Eruption(Nerves her a bit at least)

[Damage]

I personally thought it was more rewarding with Charlotte's old team. It was so damn hard that when I finally got a strategy to beat her I literally danced. Second time I played her when she had Darmanitan, I wrecked her with Chesnaught and healers. (He's grass and his sp def is pathetic.) I think the challenge is appropriate and realistic even in the most painful gym which is Charlotte or arguably Noel (for where he is). OP is never the right term for gym leaders because never in a challenge should you be able to have lost and learned from an opponent 30 times in an hour. Gym leaders don't know your 6+ pokemon and all four of each of their moves so really who is OP? I still whenever hitting a roadblock re-read Timber Dragon's old post about Reborn not being hard because its unfair, its hard because its hard. If you're really having trouble there are 2 great pokemon right before Charlotte Kingdra (find horsea with deep sea scale I think) and Walrein (thick fat for extra trolling). Is it a hard fight, well yeah but if you want easy play X and Y those games were pants poopingly easy.

[Timber Dragon]

I personally thought it was more rewarding with Charlotte's old team. It was so damn hard that when I finally got a strategy to beat her I literally danced. Second time I played her when she had Darmanitan, I wrecked her with Chesnaught and healers. (He's grass and his sp def is pathetic.) I think the challenge is appropriate and realistic even in the most painful gym which is Charlotte or arguably Noel (for where he is). OP is never the right term for gym leaders because never in a challenge should you be able to have lost and learned from an opponent 30 times in an hour. Gym leaders don't know your 6+ pokemon and all four of each of their moves so really who is OP? I still whenever hitting a roadblock re-read Timber Dragon's old post about Reborn not being hard because its unfair, its hard because its hard. If you're really having trouble there are 2 great pokemon right before Charlotte Kingdra (find horsea with deep sea scale I think) and Walrein (thick fat for extra trolling). Is it a hard fight, well yeah but if you want easy play X and Y those games were pants poopingly easy.

Agreed, but I think the complaints with Charlotte come from how it's not always easy to judge whether something is legitimately hard or just unfair. Yes, Reborn is hard because it's hard. It stands to reason that Ame does not make impossible challenges, and that if people managed to beat Charlotte then so can you... but good luck reminding yourself that it's winnable when you've lost ten times in a row and barely have an idea what you're doing wrong. Luckily there's a thread specifically devoted to gym leader help. It was made because this game can get pretty damn frustrating, and the community can show you angles you might not have considered before.

Sanding some rough edges isn't the same as nerfing. Ame doesn't make things impossible, but she's not perfect and there will be times when she'll think, "Hmm, maybe this is a little too much..." Plus, for those complaining about gym nerfs, remember that Ame is just as likely to remove great Pokemon that would have come in handy (poor poor Gyarados). She's not out to tame Reborn at all. She wants a challenge that's balanced. If that involves making something a tiny bit softer, so be it.

[Alaris]

I completely agree. You can't compare the feeling you get beating a tough leader with the one you get with the nerfed version...

And come on, there are plenty of water and groud pokemon before calcenon, she's NOT THAT hard!!

EDIT: ninja'd!

Edited March 1, 2015 by Alaris

[Qaaz]

I completely agree. You can't compare the feeling you get beating a tough leader with the one you get with the nerfed version...

And come on, there are plenty of water and groud pokemon before calcenon, she's NOT THAT hard!!

EDIT: ninja'd!

It's hard when u play casual with Eevveelutions and stuff like this. I don't have anything about those pokemon or people who likes to use some mons like this b/c they like them and I for one like what I use but with choises have consequences as well. Just squeeze ur brain more if u want to EARN ur badge

[Alaris]

It's hard when u play casual with Eevveelutions and stuff like this. I don't have anything about those pokemon or people who likes to use some mons like this b/c they like them and I for one like what I use but with choises have consequences as well. Just squeeze ur brain more if u want to EARN ur badge

Yeah. I mean, I didn't do that, but I think it'd work too, wouldn't it?

I just used Swampert's and Golem's EQ and Flygon's Rock Slide to sweep her at my first attempt. But I'm kind of an aggressive trainer, so I think that that made me counter Charlotte quite well.

[Qaaz]

Yeah. I mean, I didn't do that, but I think it'd work too, wouldn't it?

I just used Swampert's and Golem's EQ and Flygon's Rock Slide to sweep her at my first attempt. But I'm kind of an aggressive trainer, so I think that that made me counter Charlotte quite well.

Every time I read a post of some new member here that asks help for something and it's obvious that he/she don't know where he/she come it's... I don't know how to put it

This game made us to learn how use the based god Kricketune but some people is like "lol just give us that Gyarados already Ame so we can sweep them all to death"

[Alaris]

Every time I read a post of some new member here that asks help for something and it's obvious that he/she don't know where he/she come it's... I don't know how to put it

This game made us to learn how use the based god Kricketune but some people is like "lol just give us that Gyarados already Ame so we can sweep them all to death"

Just between you and me... I think kricketune should be removed before Florinia. Her battle is pointless with a fury cutter kricketune ._.

And yeah... I think that many people complaining around here haven't tried enough. I had a really tough time with pre-nerfed Aya... I battled her like 50 times, and I ended up training a Flygon and a Golem... but I never complained. It was my fault not to have the right pokemon... Same thing with the old Noel... I had to wait for a sunny day to fire at will with my typhlosion and rapidash...

Edited March 1, 2015 by Alaris

[Alilatias]

I don't think Charlotte should really be nerfed, but on the other hand, we have to note that once the game is completed, there's a potential problem in the fact that her gym is located in an area that is past a point of no return.

Most of us on our main save files were able to return to Reborn City and level up alternate teams between the release of each episode, while players starting a new file won't have that luxury. That means if you run into Charlotte and you didn't have the foresight to go pick up specific Pokemon or TMs such as Rain Dance before venturing past the point of no return, the options available to you between Agate Circus and Calcenon City are highly, highly limited.

I've even started 3 new save files since the release of Episode 13 to see the true extent of Charlotte's difficulty from the standpoint of a player that most likely won't train multiple Pokemon to prepare for her beforehand, and I've had two main observations thus far:
- I found myself heavily reliant on very specific Pokemon that can only be obtained pre-Agate Circus. Namely, Pokemon with Earthquake that won't immediately fall to an Energy Ball, rock types such as Archeops and Tyrantum, and even a Prankster Meowstic to override the speed of Charlotte's leads and get a Rain Dance, Misty Terrain, or Light Screen in. New players that don't know what to expect from the fight and don't read any guides beforehand will NOT be able to backtrack in order to get those.

- Trying to level up your team in the post-Agate Circus areas is terrible unless you had the foresight to grind before Aya leaves your party. This doesn't get any better until after you beat Charlotte, because of the sheer amount of Meteor grunts and trainers you fight in Episode 14 + enemy levels don't go any higher compared to Episode 13.

Admittedly though, move tutors being updated to ORAS in 14.5 actually does open up a lot more opportunities against her. Like a lot of Pokemon suddenly learning Stealth Rock. I should really start a new file to see how much they're going to change the post-Agate Circus game.

I'd also like to mention something else: Her team doesn't have any physical Pokemon as far as I remember. It should probably be changed for this reason. Maybe change the leading Ninetales into something else, like a Flareon with Yawn or Arcanine in general. Probably replace something else with a Tailwind Talonflame. Most of the complaints stem from how incredibly front-loaded her team is, what with the starting Drought, the field effect, and the two leads outspeeding most Pokemon in the game.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Alilatias

[Yazmat]

I'd also like to mention something else: Her team doesn't have any physical Pokemon as far as I remember. Her team should probably be changed for this reason. Maybe change the leading Ninetales into something else, like a Flareon with Yawn or Arcanine in general. Most of the complaints stem from how incredibly front-loaded her team is, what with the starting Drought, the field effect, and the two leads outspeeding most Pokemon in the game.

Ame switched her Ninetails already with a banded/scarfed Darmanitan. Although I think it has more to with the fact that people got rid to easily of the field with Rain Dance. I´m also convinced that Ame won´t give Amaria´s team, as soon as we battle her, Rain Dance because of that.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Yazmat

[Qaaz]

Lead Ninetales have changed and she use a Darmanitan insteed of 2nd Ninetales.

as for the rest of the post while u have some points I for myself can continue if I don't have all items (Rain Dance here) or have catch some mons that maybe I will use later but now (after 2-3 badges maybe that Bronzor that u catch o Iolia Valley would help you out)

So it's on your hand what choises you make

Ame switched her Ninetails already with a banded/scarfed Darmanitan. Although I think it has more to with the fact that people got rid to easily of the field with Rain Dance.

Yeah I remeber back on E13 days that every post was "Rain Dance"

Even the the walls know that ("walls have ears")

[Alaris]

I only have one savefile (I started in ep.11), and since I got past Agate, I've only backtracked to change my pokemon's names, nothing else. I didn't know that Charlotte was the next leader back in ep.13, as well as I didn't know the pokemon she would have. When I knew she was the upcoming leader, I just gathered my ground pokemon and sweeped her in my first attempt. I do not pretend to boast or something, but if I could do this (I'm quite a mediocre player), I'm sure that the rest of pleople also can. Maybe not at the first time, but... it's not impossible, even without Rain Dance.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Alaris

[Alilatias]

Oh. That doesn't seem so bad then. The only true problematic thing I potentially saw for the fight was the leading Drought. The change seems reasonable.

My first win was without Rain Dance too, but I had a Tyrantum and Archeops duo, which is probably just as cheap and very specific counters to her team. Archeops is now going to be even more insane for the fight now that it can learn Stealth Rock from the ORAS move tutors.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Alilatias

[Qaaz]

Maybe not at the first time, but... it's not impossible, even without Rain Dance.

Never use it until now

[Damage]

I'll agree sometimes it isnt easy to figure out the strategy. Also a massively hard problem with Charlotte is not being able to backtrack. While in other genres backtracking is usually unavailable, in an rpg like pokemon not being able to go back to grow your team or find items actually can be extremely limiting and against what seems to be the first "true" challenge of reborn. (make of that statement what you will). I see your point Alilatias.

[Foamy]

Since this community will be forever divided by people who love making the game look exclusive and hardcore and people who just want to make the game more welcoming and known, ame should then just give the game something like the Easy Mode/Challenge Mode thing from BW2, a normal mode would also be good, since I don't want the game to feel like insurgence or zeta/omicron, which is indeed way too easy.

I can agree to this, with the stipulation that the game's current incarnation be considered Normal Mode. :B

[Xiri]

I'm a really mediocre player myself (Heck I never knew how EVs, IVs and breeding worked before I played Reborn). I must say 'nerfing' the leaders are slightly disappointing. Even with a weak combination of Pokemon, there is always a way to defeat the leaders - be it using the field effects to your advantage, having a temporary member that assists you in the battle (I personally don't like this method and always try to win with my 'chosen' team of six) etc. You are smarter than the AI after all - so thinking a little may help to reach victory.

[Alaris]

I'm a really mediocre player myself (Heck I never knew how EVs, IVs and breeding worked before I played Reborn). I must say 'nerfing' the leaders are slightly disappointing. Even with a weak combination of Pokemon, there is always a way to defeat the leaders - be it using the field effects to your advantage, having a temporary member that assists you in the battle (I personally don't like this method and always try to win with my 'chosen' team of six) etc. You are smarter than the AI after all - so thinking a little may help to reach victory.

Same here

[LittleDevilex]

I beat her on my first try... then I made a much stronger version of her and beat her again after a few tries.