"The Axe"

[Deleted User]

LittleDevilex defeated Charlotte in about a minute with Gigalith and a Trick Room user.

That's not single handedly defeating a team though. That's using a modest type advantage in addition to strategy. Strategy is the name of the game that Amethyst wants players to employ when approaching Gym Battles. Additionally, I'm willing to wager that she had EV trained her pokemon.

Also, you do realize that video was sped up considerably so it can be easily used for demonstration purposes?

[Kithros]

LittleDevilex defeated Charlotte in about a minute with Gigalith and a Trick Room user.

Honestly, that has almost nothing to do with gigalith anyway. Trick room + any rock/ground pokemon that has a move that hits both of her pokemon wrecks charlotte. The actual pokemon being used don't matter that much (though, ideally they would be pokemon that can reliably take a hit) - it just matters that they have earthquake or rock slide and you get trick room up.

[dondon151]

That's not single handedly defeating a team though. That's using a modest type advantage in addition to strategy. Strategy is the name of the game that Amethyst wants players to employ when approaching Gym Battles. Additionally, I'm willing to wager that she had EV trained her pokemon.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the difference. Is it not "strategy" to use a Pokemon that's supposed to be strong against a gym leader? How is setting up Gigalith in a double battle and sweeping different from setting up Blaziken in a single battle and sweeping?

Hilda did not only say that a Pokemon has reason to be axed should it "break a leader." She also cited the example of Hariyama having a good matchup specifically against Florinia's Cradily as rationale for axing Hariyama. So if we want to keep ourselves consistent, it seems like there's a pretty low threshold set for a Pokemon to deserve the axe: it must be able to emphatically beat a gym leader's ace. Doesn't Gigalith and/or Trick Room cross this threshold?

Also, according to LittleDevilex's post, her Pokemon weren't specifically EV trained.

Honestly, that has almost nothing to do with gigalith anyway. Trick room + any rock/ground pokemon that has a move that hits both of her pokemon wrecks charlotte. The actual pokemon being used don't matter that much (though, ideally they would be pokemon that can reliably take a hit) - it just matters that they have earthquake or rock slide and you get trick room up.

Gigalith has Sand Force, one of the highest atk stats of all rock-type Pokemon, and it learns Rock Slide and Sandstorm via level up. Trick Room does render Charlotte beatable without hard counters like Gigalith, but other rock-type Pokemon don't quite have the power to OHKO the enemies with a spread Rock Slide, and Charlotte doesn't have a single rock-type neutral or immunity.

Like, I've tried setting up a ground-type before (Diggersby); it doesn't quite work. It needs a lot more help to sweep.

So just to make things clear, I'm not advocating axing Gigalith. I think it's great that such an option is available. I'm just struggling to understand if there's any consistency in hatchet criteria, i.e., why should one Pokemon be axed when another Pokemon does a similar thing in a different context? I've already listed the 3 necessary conditions that I think a Pokemon must fulfill to be axed, and the only Pokemon that I think fulfills those criteria as of the current release is Azumarill for hopefully obvious reasons.

Edited March 8, 2015 by dondon151

[Chase]

Yep, that would make the Trick Roomer the critical piece of the puzzle there, not Gigalith. I know that Gigalith is an absolute force - under the right conditions. Against a Fire-type user with -much- needed Trick Room support, Gigalith is a Pokemon that can find a -small- nitch in the game as viable Pokemon. You wouldn't use Gigalith against Amaria even if it had Trick Room support.

Neither would you use Hariyama extensively against Radomus or Ciel for the same reason - and if the game is causing you to shuffle your roster, that is very much the intent of the game designer. To cause the player to adapt constantly.

Admittedly, there will always be answers - but that comes with making the game beatable in the first place. To put this in perspective I was arguing about allowing the player's efforts to justify the completely swamping of Kiki with regards to Zubat being placed -just- outside her doorstep in Apophyll Cave using the premise that it takes CONSIDERABLY less individual effort to catch a Ghost type Pokemon and raise -it- to a point where it shuts down Medicham with Will-o-wisp and vastly decreases the difficulty of the leader as a result.

The argument didn't work. Because Will-o-Wisp is being used strategically to lessen the threat, it's more optimal then allowing a leader to be absolutely steamrolled without any set-up at all. It would seem that this kind of game play is encouraged over spending individual effort grinding up 'Mons that would just roll right through.

Hence, the player will have to make the decision if the struggle is -worth- continuing to play the game for. It's not a matter of our favorite Pokemon NEVER being added - because all Pokemon will be available near the end of the game. The game encourages perseverance and strategy, and it makes any kind of progress -feel- rewarding. Even against battles such as Corey's or Kiki's where it's the -ONLY- tangible reward given.

ALSO. No, I'm not asking for Makuhita to be axed. I'm asking for it to be moved just BEHIND Florinia for the sake of giving -ANOTHER- Pokemon some usage chance. My argument with Hariyama is that Boppoyama is an underrated GEM of a Pokemon....

[Deleted User]

One more thing I'd like to point out. The further that you get into the game, the less realistic and plausible it is so Axe Pokemon that deal with certain leaders well. Can I give specific points, is it a fine line? No. But you can't hold one pokemon back forever just because it deals with the 15th leader fairly well. The first 4-5 maybe even 6 gyms that's another story for sure. The 'Early game'

[Azeria]

Sometimes i wonder why Cubone's all the way in the Wasteland. I mean Marowak has decent stats and unless you like mining or item hunting,you'll likely not obtain the Thick Club for a while,so wynaut put Cubone around Shelly or Kiki to not make it completely overwhelmed by the cool ground types you get right AFTER beating Aya.

[dondon151]

Yep, that would make the Trick Roomer the critical piece of the puzzle there, not Gigalith. I know that Gigalith is an absolute force - under the right conditions. Against a Fire-type user with -much- needed Trick Room support, Gigalith is a Pokemon that can find a -small- nitch in the game as viable Pokemon. You wouldn't use Gigalith against Amaria even if it had Trick Room support.

Neither would you use Hariyama extensively against Radomus or Ciel for the same reason - and if the game is causing you to shuffle your roster, that is very much the intent of the game designer. To cause the player to adapt constantly.

I think you're underrating Gigalith. Regardless, whether Trick Room or Gigalith is more responsible for trivializing Charlotte doesn't matter; the point is that one of them should be axed if we want to be consistent with axing Hariyama.

Admittedly, there will always be answers - but that comes with making the game beatable in the first place. To put this in perspective I was arguing about allowing the player's efforts to justify the completely swamping of Kiki with regards to Zubat being placed -just- outside her doorstep in Apophyll Cave using the premise that it takes CONSIDERABLY less individual effort to catch a Ghost type Pokemon and raise -it- to a point where it shuts down Medicham with Will-o-wisp and vastly decreases the difficulty of the leader as a result.

The argument didn't work. Because Will-o-Wisp is being used strategically to lessen the threat, it's more optimal then allowing a leader to be absolutely steamrolled without any set-up at all. It would seem that this kind of game play is encouraged over spending individual effort grinding up 'Mons that would just roll right through.

Again, this line of reasoning isn't convincing. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that it's better for the player to use a cheap strategy of burning every physical attacker and winning without difficulty than it is for him to use a different cheap strategy of sweeping with his own Pokemon and winning without difficulty. Why is the former better than the latter? Is it because he's using more moves? But obviously the quantity of moves doesn't matter when it comes to determining whether a battle is easy or difficult, nor does it correspond to how much planning went into the execution of the strategy. For example, in the long-forgotten metagame of gen 3 OU, defensive play was overall easier to execute than offensive play. If you're guaranteed to win a battle as long as you land your burns, it's no different from if you're guaranteed to win a battle as long as you land your hits.

ALSO. No, I'm not asking for Makuhita to be axed. I'm asking for it to be moved just BEHIND Florinia for the sake of giving -ANOTHER- Pokemon some usage chance. My argument with Hariyama is that Boppoyama is an underrated GEM of a Pokemon....

Moving Makuhita later in the game is the definition of it getting axed.

EDIT:

As it has come to be referred to on the forums, I occasionally give Pokemon 'the axe' in terms of their availability, meaning I either remove them from the game (what's up Magikarp) or push them back a bit. So, firstly, why do I do this?

Edited March 8, 2015 by dondon151

[EonicEevee]

i don't think azumarill should be axed. maybe delayed to water areas in by route 2, but definetly not axed.

[Timber Dragon]

But what's the line drawn between effort, advantage, and strategy? Where's the line between being strategically cheap (e.g. plowing through Julia with a single Moxie Mightyena) and just being cheap (apparently, Crobat vs Kiki)? It's hard for me to tell the difference. Maybe there isn't a difference, except that one takes more thought and planning than the other.

If we move Hariyama for after Florinia, what other Pokemon will get more usage chance? Probably just Mankey for being the only other Fighting-type available at the aside from some of the starters. Sooo... instead of using Hariyama, they'll just use Mankey instead. And then what? When you see players gravitating to Mankey in Hariyama's place, do you axe Mankey because that's what everyone will use?

By this line of reasoning, axe or move Kricketune. Its Fury Cutter is strong. Sure, I gained an appreciation for Kricketune's value. Sure, it follows the game's intention of being one of many Pokemon being brought into and leaving rotation. But it makes the fight against Fern and Florinia relatively easier. Hence, it deserves the axe, right? But Ame mentinoned she won't axe it because of its "niche use." At the same time, there's talk of doing the same to Hariyama. So what's the difference? Why move/axe Hariyama and its high attack, but keep Kricketune and its Fury Cutter?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Timber Dragon

[Amethyst]

I'm just struggling to understand if there's any consistency in hatchet criteria, i.e., why should one Pokemon be axed when another Pokemon does a similar thing in a different context?

There isn't specific criteria, and I don't know if any set of specific criteria would be adequate. If this were some competitive level stuff, sure, but... it's not. As I said on the first post, the goal here is to encourage team diversity... When arguably one of the best fire types in the game is available before gym 2, it's -gonna- shut out some other options. We don't need that.

I'm not looking to make huge sweeping changes here. If nothing else that might be why I leave Hariyama where it is. I'm just nailing the biggest offenders. This topic is less about -what- to axe anyway, and more about what kind of stuff people are interested in having replace it.

[Timber Dragon]

Most of the biggest offenders have already been nailed, I think. There aren't anymore extreme cases to take care of early game. Sucks about Gyarados, Gardevoir, and Magmar, but that's how things go. When I first played Reborn and found Magmar, I had no need for Growlithe or Vulpix or any of the other Fire-types available. I was actually a little disappointed -- there was no point to catching anything else.

As for what to replace them with, I honestly don't have many suggestions. There are a lot of potential Pokemon and anything that's not Gyarados or Gardevoir or Magmar is as good as any other replacement. I dunno, I'm pretty content with my Gothita. Still don't completely understand Mr. Mime, though. There are other ways to brute force Julia, for instance (I'll repeat myself: Moxie/Howl Mightyena), and its lower stats in the grand scheme of things means Mr. Mime won't stay for long. It'll be rotated for something better, just as intended. But if it happened to be too strong for that specific point in time, I... guess I'll give it a pass.

Okay, Pidgey is obtained early. How did I miss that? Well, I'm out of ideas. I'll just make use of whatever's available.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Timber Dragon

[Deleted User]

There isn't specific criteria, and I don't know if any set of specific criteria would be adequate. If this were some competitive level stuff, sure, but... it's not. As I said on the first post, the goal here is to encourage team diversity... When arguably one of the best fire types in the game is available before gym 2, it's -gonna- shut out some other options. We don't need that.

I'm not looking to make huge sweeping changes here. If nothing else that might be why I leave Hariyama where it is. I'm just nailing the biggest offenders. This topic is less about -what- to axe anyway, and more about what kind of stuff people are interested in having replace it.

I'd still like to see Helioptile available earlier. Not a great pokemon and the weather would make in a very interesting pokemon based on the conditions.

[Chase]

Kricketune takes a SERIOUS drop-off as the game progresses, as opposed to Hariyama having multiple opportunities to shine throughout the entire course of the game. (Hariyama is a very solid -- albeit outlandish -- option for Charlotte -and- Blake, especially if mitigating it's speed issue by pairing with a Trick Roomer or finding a Pokemon to Belly Drum set-up on.)

There's a stretch of game where Hariyama isn't an All-Star, but rather than being vulnerable and eventually not being enough of a Technician to keep up, Setting up on it's own and being able to take hits for days allows Boppoyama some grace. Knock Off and Guts render it useful against Shade, and Thick Fat Hariyama has some real longevity as there are critical battles in the -late- game that would appreciate the bulk.

Kricketune eventually is too frail and -just- not strong enough on the first Fury Cutter to keep it's worth- but I feel like the only reason Hariyama gets the PC Box is it's speed is offputting in comparison to later Fighting types.

I've come up with a few categories to consider placing Pokemon into.

Niche-use only, Rotational, and Staple.

Niche-onlys would be your Gigalith's and Kricketunes of the world. The Pokemon that wouldn't see much use in -any- Pokemon game and would seemingly suffer bad luck of the draws in some stats and ability-wise, but there's that -ONE- area would where the Pokemon can shine.

Rotational Pokemon - HARI. YAMA.....at WORST. The way the game's gyms fall, this thing, and several other Pokemon, can be PC'ed momentarily and brought out for some training up for a later contest. These Pokemon are not terrible, but tend to be not the poster mon for their purpose as more 'staple' pokemon are.

Staples are your Pokemon that will be useful from Peridot to Ametrine, without any area in which they are completely overshadowed. These Pokemon are the ones you simply never put in the box. I guess Flaming Chicken of Simplicity goes here.

[ReddestDream]

There isn't specific criteria, and I don't know if any set of specific criteria would be adequate. If this were some competitive level stuff, sure, but... it's not. As I said on the first post, the goal here is to encourage team diversity... When arguably one of the best fire types in the game is available before gym 2, it's -gonna- shut out some other options. We don't need that.

I'm not looking to make huge sweeping changes here. If nothing else that might be why I leave Hariyama where it is. I'm just nailing the biggest offenders. This topic is less about -what- to axe anyway, and more about what kind of stuff people are interested in having replace it.

I agree with getting rid of Vulpix because of Drought, but, when you do, could you please replace it with another fire-type?

There aren't that many fire-types available in the early game, which is Grass-heavy, if you don't pick a fire starter (Litleo, Pansear, and Growlithe when you save the police).

If I'm missing any pre-third gym, please let me know.

I just don't like the idea of having to rely on Kicketune and Vespiquen any more than I already had too.

. . . And please not another electric-type . . . I already have Pichu, Luxio, Flaaffy, Emolga, and Manectric before the third gym . . .

Edited March 8, 2015 by ReddestDream

[Sheep]

Last I knew Helioptile was already obtainable early, like pre Corey or something. Early enough for it to be utterly useless anyway.

[Azeria]

Kricketune takes a SERIOUS drop-off as the game progresses, as opposed to Hariyama having multiple opportunities to shine throughout the entire course of the game. (Hariyama is a very solid -- albeit outlandish -- option for Charlotte -and- Blake, especially if mitigating it's speed issue by pairing with a Trick Roomer or finding a Pokemon to Belly Drum set-up on.)

There's a stretch of game where Hariyama isn't an All-Star, but rather than being vulnerable and eventually not being enough of a Technician to keep up, Setting up on it's own and being able to take hits for days allows Boppoyama some grace. Knock Off and Guts render it useful against Shade, and Thick Fat Hariyama has some real longevity as there are critical battles in the -late- game that would appreciate the bulk.

Kricketune eventually is too frail and -just- not strong enough on the first Fury Cutter to keep it's worth- but I feel like the only reason Hariyama gets the PC Box is it's speed is offputting in comparison to later Fighting types.

I've come up with a few categories to consider placing Pokemon into.

Niche-use only, Rotational, and Staple.

Niche-onlys would be your Gigalith's and Kricketunes of the world. The Pokemon that wouldn't see much use in -any- Pokemon game and would seemingly suffer bad luck of the draws in some stats and ability-wise, but there's that -ONE- area would where the Pokemon can shine.

Rotational Pokemon - HARI. YAMA.....at WORST. The way the game's gyms fall, this thing, and several other Pokemon, can be PC'ed momentarily and brought out for some training up for a later contest. These Pokemon are not terrible, but tend to be not the poster mon for their purpose as more 'staple' pokemon are.

Staples are your Pokemon that will be useful from Peridot to Ametrine, without any area in which they are completely overshadowed. These Pokemon are the ones you simply never put in the box. I guess Flaming Chicken of Simplicity goes here.

Then there's the Broken tier where the men called Gyarados and Crobat reside to reign over their subjects who are terrorized by their supreme power

I wish we could get the Metal Coat or Upgrade earlier though because who's gunna grind an onix from level 15 to level 50 something because the thing will get vaporized by every leader after Shade (there's like a 5% chance of item hunting it off a Magnemite but that takes a long time..i've done it before)while Porygon is obtained after Shelly where the next leader is Shade who he can do nothing against,Same with Kiki and is barely decent against Aya. If you ask me,at least give it the Upgrade so it can do something besides being a hitting bag before it evolves(I might be off here but this is from my personal experience)

Edited March 8, 2015 by Dat Assery

[Chase]

Azery ZIP IT NOBODY'S SUPPOSED TO KNOW CROBAT IS GOD TIER YOU-....

ahahaha......ahahahahahahaha......

[Azeria]

Azery ZIP IT NOBODY'S SUPPOSED TO KNOW CROBAT IS GOD TIER YOU-....

ahahaha......ahahahahahahaha......

...I've wanted a pet bat for years and crobat was essentially that so zip it and love the damn Anihilator for how awesome it is!

Anyways,Moving Shuppet to before Florinia would be cool too i guess.We do need to cater to monotype run's right?

[Sheep]

Earlier Porygon2 is also something I'd like to see. Pory2 is pretty good, great moveset, decent base stats, so don't put it too early, but at the moment it comes in probably on par with everything else at that time while it's pre evo is something that no-one will want to be using before that.

[Azeria]

Put the Upgrade around Kiki or something,at that point in time,the better mons start to become available so giving it to us there is a huge boon,but in the end it's your decision Ame-sama

[Felicity]

Note: I'd say Diggersby with HP goes in staple tier. From getting it before Corey it puts in work on most gyms after that. It even put in work versus Serra for me which surprised me. I actually tried taking it our of my team after kiki but it's sheer usefulness kept bringing it back ot of the pc.

[Deleted User]

You know what really needs the axe? Flygon

[Chase]

No...

GameFreak gave it the axe when they made it evolve from Trapinch, gave it a x4 Ice weakness, and didn't give it a Mega.

I submit Pancham to replace Makuhita in the slums.

[Prankster Meowstic]

Gamefreak gave Flygon the axe when they came up with Garchomp.

[Sheep]

Note: I'd say Diggersby with HP goes in staple tier. From getting it before Corey it puts in work on most gyms after that. It even put in work versus Serra for me which surprised me. I actually tried taking it our of my team after kiki but it's sheer usefulness kept bringing it back ot of the pc.

Was this pre or post relocation of the move relearner? 'Cause post should have nerfed it right? Without access to the relearner its only good physical moves 'til 37 are take down and double kick, the former has recoil and the latter really isn't that good.