"The Axe"

[Personthing]

Talonflame is pretty average in game, honestly. It gets it's STAB moves pretty late, and it's speed is so high it's likely going to outspeed everything even without Gale Wings. Saying it's broken in game because it gets flare blitz with the move re-learner is like saying Typhlosion is broken because it can get Eruption at the same point in the game. Talonflame doesn't get any decent stat boosting moves without TMs/tutors which is what makes Gale Wings so scary in the first place.

In Reborn, I'd say showing up in between the Shelly battle - Serra battle would be a decent time for Fletchling/Fletchinder to appear.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[dondon151]

dondon, while your points are valid and actually somewhat convincing, I need to ask that you make them in a more polite manner and try not to belittle your fellow Reborn community members for having opinions that differ from yours.

I've dealt with this before because I've argued over this same exact subject in the past. I don't mind contrasting opinions, but I do mind when I put work into a post like that and the only impression I get from the responders is that no one bothered reading it. I think that's rude. It's not rude in a direct way, but it's still rude.

Talonflame, while it doesn't work well early in the game, once it gets access to the move tutor would be kind of overpowered in the mid section of the game. It'd wipe the floor with Serra as it stands now. You can't consider just the early game when thinking of Pokemon to put in the early game.

All gym leaders have a Pokemon or Pokemon(s?) that they are very vulnerable to. It shouldn't be surprising that Talonflame is strong against Serra, although I think you're overestimating its strength. It can't do anything to Cloyster, Avalugg, or Lapras. I've already pointed out that among non-starters, Arcanine and Darmanitan are clearly both stronger than Talonflame at all stages of the game, and I would also include Pyroar and Ninetales in their company. Among flying-type Pokemon, Crobat is the first Pokemon that comes to mind as being clearly superior, and even Noibat is competitive against Fletchinder.

The only strike against Talonflame, which I recall someone bringing up previously, is that it's so popular in competitive play that some of its popularity may spill over into in-game play. I don't view that as a problem; too bad for the players who so eagerly decide to invest in such a mediocre Pokemon.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Chase]

Gale Wings defines the Talonflame line in terms of competitiveness alone. There's a few things to consider, including Flame Body.

- Fletchinder gets Roost by level up at level 25. Priority Healing due to the Gaie Wings

- at level 44 Talonflame gets Acrobatics, which is an incredibly powerful physical move if you run your Talonflame without an item - this happens much more often in story playthroughs than it does in competitive play. Again, Priority, due to being a Flying Type with Gale Wings.

- at level 39 gets Flame Charge, which isn't terribly powerful, but boosts it's speed after each use

- Serra, the gym leader that would suffer the most due to Talonflame being made available earlier in the game, allows the player to have Pokémon up to level -50- for use, which means Talonflame will have access to all three of those moves. Abomasnow is probably not going to be able to TAKE a Flame Charge.

It's -because- some Pokémon have a potential to be game breaking that Gym Leaders have a few options to counter potential threats. For example, the best way to go about dealing with Cloyster is to hit it hard with a Special Electric type attack, which would also hinder Lapras. Avalugg is best taken care of by breaking sturdy and then hitting it hard with a Fighting type attack (in my opinion)

Talonflame has no trouble with the remaining -half- of her team.

It's also worth mentioning that Flame Body Talonflame is a boon to egg hatching, and whenever the hell Fly is a thing, Talonflame will probably be the go-to incubator. Even without fly, this is an option as Talonflame is truly a somewhat decent Pokémon with Flame Body

[dondon151]

Gale Wings defines the Talonflame line in general.

- Fletchinder gets Roost by level up at level 25. Priority Healing due to the Gaie Wings

- at level 44 Talonflame gets Acrobatics, which is an incredibly powerful physical move if you run your Talonflame without an item - this happens much more often in story playthroughs than it does in competitive play. Again, Priority, due to being a Flying Type with Gale Wings.

- at level 39 gets Flame Charge, which isn't terribly powerful, but boosts it's speed after each use

- Serra, the gym leader that would suffer the most due to Talonflame being made available earlier in the game, allows the player to have Pokémon up to level -50- for use, which means Talonflame will have access to all three of those moves. Abomasnow is probably not going to be able to TAKE a Flame Charge.

So I've already countered most of these points.

0. Priority healing already exists in the form of myriad potions and ice creams.

1. What's the point of Gale Wings on a Pokemon with 126 base spd? Reborn is not competitive Pokemon. Talonflame is OU because it reliably beats specific Pokemon and it can revenge kill, and typically it requires either an unobtainable item (Choice Band) or an unobtainable move (Bulk Up). The former is true of all Pokemon in-game, and the latter doesn't matter because the AI rarely switches.

2. Crobat gets Acrobatics at L35 and it is not an overpowered Pokemon. Emolga is barely weaker than Talonflame (base 75 atk vs. base 81 atk) and it learns Acrobatics at L30, plus it doesn't have to deal with being useless forever, plus it has actual support moves in Nuzzle, Light Screen, and Encore. Emolga > Talonflame, you heard it here first, folks.

3. Literally every Pokemon that learns Flame Charge by level up learns it sooner than Talonflame, and why does Talonflame need +spd when it already has base 126 spd?

4. Talonflame is not good against 3 of Serra's Pokemon. I'm pretty sure that Avalugg has Rock Slide, in which case 3 of Serra's Pokemon easily take a Flare Blitz from Talonflame's meager 81 base atk and OHKO in return with a water-type move or Rock Slide.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Personthing]

Gale Wings defines the Talonflame line in general.

- Fletchinder gets Roost by level up at level 25. Priority Healing due to the Gaie Wings

- at level 44 Talonflame gets Acrobatics, which is an incredibly powerful physical move if you run your Talonflame without an item - this happens much more often in story playthroughs than it does in competitive play. Again, Priority, due to being a Flying Type with Gale Wings.

- at level 39 gets Flame Charge, which isn't terribly powerful, but boosts it's speed after each use

- Serra, the gym leader that would suffer the most due to Talonflame being made available earlier in the game, allows the player to have Pokémon up to level -50- for use, which means Talonflame will have access to all three of those moves. Abomasnow is probably not going to be able to TAKE a Flame Charge.

Even without Gale Wings though, Talonflame would almost always go first against anything unless it sets up with agility/dragon dance, or has a choice scarf. In regards to Serra, aside from her Lapras and Cloyster she struggles with any half decent fire type, and until she gets a field effect to help her out she will continue to do so. Talonflame also has a fairly meager attack stat, so without swords dance or bulk-up it won't be OHKOing often.

EDIT: Serra also has Avalugg which would wreck Talonflame.

I'm not even a fan of Talonflame, but I fail to see how it would be overpowered in Reborn's enviroment.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Yazmat]

Taking Blaziken, Chimchar, Mudkip, Froakie, Bulbasaurand Turtwig?/Chespin? could result in a harder starting experience such as getting mugged for a quarter of your starting cash (with the opportunity to hunt it down a la Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door) and limited trade options.

I don´t like the Idea of getting punished for using starters I like. As much as I like having all Starters avaible, if it´s result in getting punished for choosing those starters or getting advantages for choosing inferior starters I would prefer if we only get to choose from 3 Starters instead of every Starter.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Yazmat

[CURIE]

Taking Blaziken, Chimchar, Mudkip, Froakie, Bulbasaurand Turtwig?/Chespin? could result in a harder starting experience such as getting mugged for a quarter of your starting cash (with the opportunity to hunt it down a la Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door) and limited trade options.

Taking middle tier starters results in the opportunity for held items to show up earlier, along with avoiding misfortunes such as getting mugged.

Taking things like Chikorita, Treecko, Totodile, Squirtle, Charmander, and Fennekin would result in held items showing up early, increased earnings in some trainers, maybe the occasional trade opportunity as a service for picking a lower tier starter.

Of course, we would have to thoroughly discern which starters are which tier (Example - Totodile gets the incredible ability Sheer Force, but no stab physical Water move until level SIXTY)

While the mugging thing sounds good and plausible, the rest seems RIDICULOUS in terms of scripting. Affecting which items appear where? how much money you get from trainers? IN GAME EVENTS? That sounds like Ame would have to pretty much overhaul the game's coding, thrice or more over, all just for one Pokemon?

[Lostelle]

This thread turned really interesting, fast.

[dondon151]

Blaziken would still be the strongest starter, even without Speed Boost.

The mugging event doesn't sound very good. The last thing that you want to do is to make a player feel like he's being punished for making a choice that's not even objectively wrong.

And despite Blaziken being the strongest starter, it still struggles with a good handful of boss battles.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Chase]

The question is - would a new player even have to KNOW that the event is happening because of their decision of starter? It's also not really a punishment if you can take matters in your own hands and get your money back.

I don't understand why people think trade-offs are a bad thing....especially when

- All Pokémon will eventually be available.

- All Items will eventually be available.

...regardless of decision.

Aside from that, Scripting and coding may/may not be a nightmare, and I was just being hypothetical as everyone else though. It's funny how you try to justify not adding talonflame and people want to disagree with -everything- you say.

[dondon151]

The question is - would a new player even have to KNOW that the event is happening because of their decision of starter? It's also not really a punishment if you can take matters in your own hands and get your money back.

Not every player is a first-time player. An event where you get mugged right at the beginning of the game seems really contrived; I'm sure that even someone who doesn't know what's going on would suspect that something is weird.

I don't understand why people think trade-offs are a bad thing....especially when

- All Pokémon will eventually be available.

- All Items will eventually be available.

...regardless of decision.

Trade-offs are not inherently a bad thing, but you just have to make sure that the player doesn't get the sense of being unfairly penalized.

I think, for example, that an event where you receive a free Pokemon depending on the power of your starter could work. It would kind of be like the monkey event in B/W, except the variable is the starter's strength rather than the type. The player would still be effectively penalized for choosing a better starter, but he would perceive it differently because instead of something being taken away, he's receiving something for free.

The issue afterwards is deciding which starters are in what tier. I'm of the opinion that there are only 2 tiers of starters: Blaziken-tier and not-Blaziken-tier. Some may disagree.

(Actually, starter strength is correlated to type. The fire-type starters are stronger as a whole and the grass- and water-type starters are weaker. Some of this certainly has to do with the type composition of the first two gyms and Fern and Cain.)

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[AdmiralTowa]

Talonflame stats are average in everything except speed, however I do think that the potential early access to Gale Wings is something to think about. While I would love to have a a Talonflame early on, the fact that it essentially has priority for Flying-type moves is kinda too good.

+ Priority anything in my opinion is really good since being able to move before your opponent can be the deciding factor between a win or a loss.

- I think the main go to idea for Talonflame would be an offensive attacker using the well proven Brave Bird + Gale Wings, and the argument is that it not as good in-game due the current lack of TM Sword Dance or Bulk Up and even Choice Band.

+ However its still a base 120 power move that benefits from STAB and gains priority meaning you are likely attacking first unless your opponent just so happens to also use a +1 priority move and is naturally faster than you.

+ Furthermore Talonflame has access to Roost which mean priority recovery and can also be used as a utility Pokemon since it has priority Tailwind meaning it can help set up for your other Pokemon which can be really helpful especially in those gym leader double battles.

Honestly I see more good point about Talonflame than bad, if I had to place Talonflame somewhere, it would not be anywhere before you gain access to Route 1 at least.

[dondon151]

I don't know why people continue to bring up priority Roost when healing items have priority anyway and usually heal more than Roost.

I also don't know why Gale Wings is considered good in-game when a fast flier like Crobat or Noivern already outspeeds every opponent Pokemon to begin with. It's like, is 126 base spd not fast enough? Are you not already going first with your flying-type moves? I mean, you might have an easier time with the Mewtwo battle, but isn't that a good thing? Mewtwo isn't easy for a team that doesn't have an easy out, and all of the Prankster users are better than Gale Wings Talonflame at gimping the single-Pokemon boss battles anyway. Priority screens, Leech Seed, and Stun Spore are all substantially more powerful than priority Brave Bird, Tailwind, or Roost.

#axeCottonee

#freeTalonflame

(no please don't axe Cottonee)

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Deleted User]

So I've already countered most of these points.

0. Priority healing already exists in the form of myriad potions and ice creams.

1. What's the point of Gale Wings on a Pokemon with 126 base spd? Reborn is not competitive Pokemon. Talonflame is OU because it reliably beats specific Pokemon and it can revenge kill, and typically it requires either an unobtainable item (Choice Band) or an unobtainable move (Bulk Up). The former is true of all Pokemon in-game, and the latter doesn't matter because the AI rarely switches.

2. Crobat gets Acrobatics at L35 and it is not an overpowered Pokemon. Emolga is barely weaker than Talonflame (base 75 atk vs. base 81 atk) and it learns Acrobatics at L30, plus it doesn't have to deal with being useless forever, plus it has actual support moves in Nuzzle, Light Screen, and Encore. Emolga > Talonflame, you heard it here first, folks.

3. Literally every Pokemon that learns Flame Charge by level up learns it sooner than Talonflame, and why does Talonflame need +spd when it already has base 126 spd?

4. Talonflame is not good against 3 of Serra's Pokemon. I'm pretty sure that Avalugg has Rock Slide, in which case 3 of Serra's Pokemon easily take a Flare Blitz from Talonflame's meager 81 base atk and OHKO in return with a water-type move or Rock Slide.

Except the fact that Ice Cream and Potions y'know... cost money.

It can outspeed almost anything without ANY speed investment normally so that further goes to show why it shouldn't be early game available. That lack of investment can be placed into attack and any of it's other stats and make it overall a better poke. Crobat was removed early game for the very reason that it manhandled Florinia and Kiki, much in thanks to Acrobatics.

Flame Charge is a valid point.

But going back to Talonflame it can be given full attack investment and can be breeded for an attack positive nature. With the cap being I believe 50 at Serra Talonflame's max attack at level 50 is 146, which is nothing to scoff at. And it still manhandled half of Kiki's and Serra's teams.

[dondon151]

Crobat has the distinct advantage of being available at L23 because it evolves through friendship and not by level up.

I'm not convinced that Fletchinder would destroy Florinia. Fletchinder's strongest moves are Peck and Ember. There are plenty of Pokemon that destroy Florinia in a truer sense of the word - Hariyama and Kricketune come to mind.

Kiki is a fair point, but that's just one battle. According to the locations guide, Golbat is available in Pyrous Mt., so it can be caught before Kiki anyway. Again, I have to cite examples of Pokemon that trivialize other gym leader battles.

Any Pokemon bred or reset for perfect characteristics and then fully EV trained is going to have an easier time with the game. I'm fairly certain that Reborn is designed to accommodate a natural progression rather than training of a competitive nature. I could be wrong on this, but I doubt it.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Commander]

Yeah, I kind of agree with getting a certain amount of money for picking a certain pokemon. I'd be best to start everyone at zero and give people a certain to sell for money. If you pick something like Torchic, you'd get a Poke Ball or nothing, but if you picked something like Chikorita, you'd get a Star Piece. Money is very hard to get early in the game so if you limit it, it'd certainly turn people away from picking uber strong Pokemon.

As for Talonflame, really people? I've nuzlocked with a Flame Body one and it was pretty broken and untouchable at certain points. Maybe I'd say okay in Ep 15 or 16, but not early. That priority Brave Bird is like saying Speed Boost Blaziken's High Jump Kick is not game breaking. Yes, in the long run it wouldn't be as effective, but I see too many Gyarados like solutions with that thing.

[dondon151]

That priority Brave Bird is like saying Speed Boost Blaziken's High Jump Kick is not game breaking.

Assertions require evidence.

You actually first need to put up a convincing argument that Talonflame is better than Crobat, because Crobat is not remotely broken or gamebreaking. I think I've thoroughly shown that Crobat is just a better Pokemon than Talonflame. Ball's in your court.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Deleted User]

Assertions require evidence.

You actually first need to put up a convincing argument that Talonflame is better than Crobat, because Crobat is not remotely broken or gamebreaking. I think I've thoroughly shown that Crobat is just a better Pokemon than Talonflame. Ball's in your court.

Crobat is gamebreaking early game, all you need to do is look at why it was scrapped from early game a while ago. Talonflame gets healing while Crobat doesn't.

[Alilatias]

I don't think Serra is even the point with regards to Talonflame. There's still Samson later on, Talonflame has resistance against Charolette, and would completely trivialize the Blake fight too.

The biggest threat from Terra is probably her Excadrill, and Talonflame would burn its face off. Or if it can't, sacrifice itself to get off a priority Tailwind to turn Terra's field against her with regards to giving your team the critical hit rate advantage, not to mention the immunity to ground attacks despite it being a fire type. Talonflame may be bad for the start of the game, but I get the impression it does too much from Serra and onward. Like, I don't think anyone would even consider using any other Fire (besides Blaziken) AND Flying types if Talonflame was made available too early.

I would say putting Talonflame in the upcoming chapter would be fair, that would dodge all the fights that it'd steamroll, and this is also assuming the upcoming gyms consist of Amaria and Hardy.

Crobat keeps being brought up, but it doesn't know any Fire moves. It wouldn't really be able to hold its own against Serra and Blake, along with the various steel types peppered into other gym leaders' rosters (such as Radmous' Metagross and Luna's Bisharp).

---

Regarding starters... Scripting different events for different starters sounds incredibly convoluted. I think it'd be much simpler to give the lesser used starters one egg move right off the bat. Like...

- Squirtle: Yawn

- Chikorita: Aromatherapy? Leech Seed?

- Totodile: Aqua Jet

- Treecko: Bullet Seed

- Turtwig: Growth? Sand Tomb?

- Chimchar: Encore
- Tepig: Curse? Yawn?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Alilatias

[Commander]

I think we're missing the elephant in the room when looking at Talonflame. Yes, would could debate whether or not it'd be useful in the early game or not, but when compared to the other birds, it completely outclasses them. (Speaking of birds, can we move Swellow back a bit.) If Talonflame was available in let's say Ep 3 or 5, he'd be quite easy to train and everyone would use him due to him being the best flying type available eclipsing the rest of them. I'm done arguing though because I stand for Talonflame being available in 15 or 16.

[CURIE]

There is way too much talk of Talonflame in this thread where the first post pretty much says "screw Talonflame don't even bother talking about him because I'll ignore you"

[Alilatias]

I would love for a Taillow to be made available earlier as well. Perhaps after Florinia, maybe as an event somewhere in Beryl.

Taillow needs Facade and a Toxic Orb (or a Burn Orb) in order to truly start wrecking, and one's a casino prize requiring a hefty cash investment while the other can't be legitimately obtained until the next episode at the very earliest. Taillow can also only learn Brave Bird and Roost through breeding, and currently the only candidates to breed are Farfetch'd (Brave Bird only, Lv. 51) and Ducklett (Lv. 41 for both, you'd have to raise that Ducklett from the egg or wait until you reach Tanzan Cove, which is around the same time Taillow is normally available anyway).

Meanwhile, you can already start working on a Murkrow as early as before Shelly, and have a Moxie Sucker Punching Honchkrow as soon as you clear the Railnet. You can also get Archeops right before Serra. IMO Archeops is pretty broken for when it's available, but I'm not sure where would be a good place to move it. Maybe look at the fossils from the Museum (Titoruga and Archen) and 7th Street (Amaura and Tyrunt) events, and swap Archen with Amaura.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Alilatias

[Prankster Meowstic]

I've been playing the game for a couple of months and I'd say the biggest limiting factor preventing variety of team building is not necessarily what pokemon are available but what moves are available. Since there very few good TMs available and the move tutors are all really late, it boxes in the player into picking pokemon which learn good moves via level up. This makes using a pokemon like Kabutops essentially impossible even if it would be available earlier in the game and makes pokemon like Flygon, Arcanine or Male Meowstic highly desirable.

[Chase]

To put an exclamation point the biggest things that stand out to me about Talonflame are three very practical and critical things.

1. Apparently this needs to be established, but FREE........Priority healing. Even with the small trade-off that it's Fire typing would render it at the mercy of Ground type attacks for the turn it lands, Talonflame is able to save the player money, which is a big deal around level 25 as a Fletchinder.

2. Talonflame, as a fire type Pokémon, is immune to burns. This is a huge deal as a physical attacker.

3. Many players are -very- keen on hatching eggs. Arguably, Reborn is a game that remotely justifies trying to breed for better Pokémon to use. - Talonflame's usual ability would allow it to be an incubator and it would be available before Florinia, giving the player early access to reduced hatching time.

I wouldn't mind a looser leash on TMs either, now that the Move Tutor is further back in the game.

[Etesian]

like I'm pretty sure nobody misses Tentacool

I've been waiting for it since E10! Poisonous water everywhere, # of Poisonous-Water loving Jellyfish: 0

Anyways, I went through the Location Guide and here's the stuff I think is found too late for anyone to seriously consider replacing a team member for:

Seel

Blitzle

Lickitung

Basculin

Delibird

Wailmer

Snorunt

Carbink

Elgyem

Drowzee

Baltoy

Stantler

Swablu

Audino

Spinda

Farfetch'd

Cubone

Nosepass

Gligar (considering we can't evolve it)

Natu

Aipom (I mean the Ametrine City wild ones, it took me 45 minutes while speeding up the game to get one in Beryl via Headbutt so I'm not counting that)

Girafarig

Qwilfish

Corsola

Maractus

Taillow

Seviper

Tynamo

As for the starter thing, I don't think it can be helped, really. One thing that could get people to use less-loved starters (like Squirtle, Oshawott, Chikorita, etc) would be to give them events at earlier times (Chikorita is too late IMO, for example), but not a lot of people would pick them out of all the starters available.

The money thing would be pointless too IMO. The only thing I ever even used money on in bigger amounts was the salons, Pokeballs and the Day-Care, and I still easily have 6 digits.