"The Axe"

[dondon151]

To put an exclamation point the biggest things that stand out to me about Talonflame are three very practical and critical things.

1. Apparently this needs to be established, but FREE........Priority healing. Even with the small trade-off that it's Fire typing would render it at the mercy of Ground type attacks for the turn it lands, Talonflame is able to save the player money, which is a big deal around level 25 as a Fletchinder.

I will echo Etesian's statement that money is never an issue except for very early in the game. And given how horrid Fletchinder is, I think free healing might salvage it from being so, so bad.

2. Talonflame, as a fire type Pokémon, is immune to burns. This is a huge deal as a physical attacker.

Okay? So is every other physical fire-type Pokemon, most of which are stronger than Talonflame?

3. Many players are -very- keen on hatching eggs. Arguably, Reborn is a game that remotely justifies trying to breed for better Pokémon to use. - Talonflame's usual ability would allow it to be an incubator and it would be available before Florinia, giving the player early access to reduced hatching time.

Isn't this a good thing? If a player wants to hatch eggs, he'll do it anyway, and you might as well make it easier for him. If a player doesn't want to hatch eggs, then this doesn't matter.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Commander]

Seriously, I'm getting sick of seeing stuff about Talonflame. It's annoying enough he floods OU, I really don't want to see him flooding Reborn just yet. (We all had to wait months and for some a year for our favorite 'mon to be implemented so just suck it up and get over it).

Seel

Blitzle

Lickitung

Basculin

Delibird

Wailmer

Snorunt

Carbink

Elgyem

Drowzee

Baltoy

Stantler

Swablu

Audino

Spinda

Farfetch'd

Cubone

Nosepass

Gligar (considering we can't evolve it)

Natu

Aipom (I mean the Ametrine City wild ones, it took me 45 minutes while speeding up the game to get one in Beryl via Headbutt so I'm not counting that)

Girafarig

Qwilfish

Corsola

Maractus

Taillow

Seviper

Tynamo

The ones in bold I agree with. There are reasons why I didn't bold some, but giving them all will take a while (I will if I have to).

As for the starter thing, it might just be a good idea to remove the gamebreaking ones such as Blaziken, Greninja, and Infernape leaving a funny message relating to out of stock or something. (If you want to be cruel, make an amiibo joke out of it...because rare ones are impossible to find). I rarely had money struggles except when trying to complete the Pokedex. Without those pokemon, people might broaden in choices to Pokemon like Blastoise (who is a freaking boss) to go through the game. Removing those OP one should let people choose want difficulty they want to play, but still challenges them to some degree.

[dondon151]

Seriously, I'm getting sick of seeing stuff about Talonflame. It's annoying enough he floods OU, I really don't want to see him flooding Reborn just yet. (We all had to wait months and for some a year for our favorite 'mon to be implemented so just suck it up and get over it).

Look, I'm in the same boat as Mighty Kamina: I don't particularly like Talonflame. I just find the arguments for his exclusion to be extraordinarily feeble. The idea that Talonflame will break the game is so prevalent in this community that some users simply cite it as accepted fact, but it's so obvious to me that Talonflame is not a good in-game Pokemon.

As for the starter thing, it might just be a good idea to remove the gamebreaking ones such as Blaziken, Greninja, and Infernape leaving a funny message relating to out of stock or something. (If you want to be cruel, make an amiibo joke out of it...because rare ones are impossible to find). I rarely had money struggles except when trying to complete the Pokedex. Without those pokemon, people might broaden in choices to Pokemon like Blastoise (who is a freaking boss) to go through the game. Removing those OP one should let people choose want difficulty they want to play, but still challenges them to some degree.

Infernape isn't gamebreaking, though. Neither is Greninja. Greninja is actually not very good until it gets access to usable moves via TM/HM late in the game. Delphox is definitely much better than Greninja. I think that Serperior is very strong because it can set up against a lot of enemies and its win condition is so easy to meet. Coil, sweep. Coil, sweep. Throw in a Leech Seed to aid durability.

The problem with singling out "good" starters should be self-evident by now: we can argue about it all day and the only starter that everyone will agree on being stronger than all the rest is Blaziken.

[Chase]

I take it you don't do RU Pokémon battles, so you probably wouldn't know...

...but Fletchinder is banned from NeverUsed. Astounding for a NFE Pokémon in it's own right, but completely contrasts with your argument that Fletchinder is horrible.

Outside of Tailow, it's the only bird Pokémon that scoffs at burns, and it's learnset is one of the more FORGIVING of the early bird Pokémon out there. Crobat, your poster 'mon for how viable Talonflame is without being gamebreaking, doesn't like burns chief. It also can't heal itself unless you are able to teach it Roost through TM

You can't in Reborn early on.

Breeding is -FINE-, but we are -NOT- going to push for making it easier THAT early in the game. We -should- be happy we have the Day Care is accessible that early in the first place.

...I'm not here to say Talonflame is gamebreaking, but you make it sound like it's terrible enough to be viable extremely early when that simply is -not- true. By Serra, you can have the best of the best set if you so please, and from there it's a very sexy option. You can joke about priority peck and ember being lackluster all you want but when you can common candy and have priority Roost BEFORE THE SECOND GYM, that's a bit of a relief considering the game is -supposed- to be unforgiving early on.

[Guzam]

I completely agree with no talonflame quite yet. The damn this is OP. It's special ability is the entire reason it's in OU. When you see that, you know the thing isn't freaking garbage. I reckon we may get Talonflame after Titania or Adrienn, mostly because Talonflame resists fairy and hits hard physically which not all fairies can take. and no you can't use stealth rock as an argument because who's going to use stealth rock on you? Has any trainer even had stealth rock since Luna? Maybe Terra idk but still.

[Deleted User]

If Talonflame is going to be added at all, it can be no earlier than after beating Samson. Talonflame laughs at everything Samson has.

[dondon151]

I take it you don't do RU Pokémon battles, so you probably wouldn't know...

...but Fletchinder is banned from NeverUsed. Astounding for a NFE Pokémon in it's own right, but completely contrasts with your argument that Fletchinder is horrible.

No, it doesn't. Competitive Pokemon is not in-game Pokemon. Repeat after me, kids.

"Competitive Pokemon is not in-game Pokemon."

Fletchinder is banned from NU in part because it runs Swords Dance and Will-o-Wisp, neither of which it can learn in-game at the moment. RU Fletchinder uses Acrobatics; in-game Fletchinder doesn't even learn Acrobatics before evolving into Talonflame. RU Fletchinder's priority Roost is strong because competitive Pokemon disallows item usage. You are free to use potions and ice creams as you please in Reborn. Don't bother attempting to cite cost again; both Etesian and Commander have punched holes in that argument.

Also, are you seriously trying to argue that Fletchinder is gamebreaking because it's RU? Golbat is RU, Glalie is RU, Qwilfish is RU. Man, they sure are some broken Pokemon.

Outside of Tailow, it's the only bird Pokémon that scoffs at burns, and it's learnset is one of the more FORGIVING of the early bird Pokémon out there. Crobat, your poster 'mon for how viable Talonflame is without being gamebreaking, doesn't like burns chief. It also can't heal itself unless you are able to teach it Roost through TM

Every Pokemon that's not a fire-type or carries Water Veil, Guts, etc. is vulnerable to burns. Are you going to claim that a Pokemon is too strong because it's fire-type?

How is Fletchinder's level up movepool remotely good? Its strongest damaging move prior to L44 Acrobatics is L38 Flame Charge (both of which it should be learning as Talonflame). Its strongest damaging move prior to L38 Flame Charge is L27 Razor Wind (lol). If you want consistent damage that doesn't require a charge turn, pick your poison between Peck and Ember. Yikes.

My buddy Golbat gets Wing Attack at L13. Golbat learns a stronger STAB at L13 than Fletchinder can learn before L44. Even the shittier bird Pokemon are better off than Fletchinder. Pidgeotto gets L37 Wing Attack. Tranquill gets L15 Air Cutter. Taillow, being the monster that it is, gets L13 Wing Attack, which is a bit later than Staravia's L9 Wing Attack.

Alilatias earlier stated that she would like an earlier Taillow. The Taillow line utterly shames the Fletchling line until Talonflame learns usable STABs. Taillow reaches its final form earlier. It learns Wing Attack at L13. It can actually get a normal-type STAB that situationally becomes incredibly powerful. Fletchinder, meanwhile, is content to chip away at an enemy with Peck or Ember and stall away your life with Roost. Have fun with that.

[MetalKing1417]

As for the starter thing, it might just be a good idea to remove the gamebreaking ones such as Blaziken, Greninja, and Infernape leaving a funny message relating to out of stock or something. (If you want to be cruel, make an amiibo joke out of it...because rare ones are impossible to find). I rarely had money struggles except when trying to complete the Pokedex. Without those pokemon, people might broaden in choices to Pokemon like Blastoise (who is a freaking boss) to go through the game. Removing those OP one should let people choose want difficulty they want to play, but still challenges them to some degree.

How about instead of out of stock, "low on stock" and a price tag behind it saying that if you want to use this starter this amount of money will be deducted from your account if you choose this starter, (i.e. virtually all of it meaning you can't buy poke balls or what else immediately)

[Deleted User]

dondon, I'm not going to ask you again, feel free to voice your opinion, but please do so more respectfully. If you continue to act so condescending you won't like the outcome.

[Personthing]

Sigh... I'm going to put in one last piece in my argument about Talonflame, and then I'm done with it. (I don't even like the thing)

Talonflame doesn't get any stat boosting moves in Reborn, which is one of the major things that makes it so dangerous in competitive play. You can wave at it and call it overpowered all you want, but when there are other fire types that are hitting way harder than Talonflame ever will without Swords Dance or Bulk Up (which it would have no way to learn in Reborn, but please correct me if I'm wrong), and still manage to consistently outspeed the opponent, it's kind of outclassed. (Blaziken, Infernape, Arcanine, Darmanitan, and Typhlosion are all examples of Pokemon that do this)

All it has coverage wise is Fire and Flying. It is completely walled by any half decent rock type, (which are fairly plentiful among team meteor) and while it's two attacking moves may be powerful, without boosting it's stats it wouldn't be hitting as hard as it's competition, plus it takes hits really badly.

That being said, the absolute earliest I think it should be available is after Shelly, but the ideal time IMO would be in the forest near Spinel town.

Should Talonflame ever be available in Reborn, it will not have access to all of the tools that make it OU. Again, I don't like Talonflame and I don't actually care that much if it ever gets added, but I just feel like I should give my opinion on why it would not be gamebreaking if it ever got added before the late game.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[dondon151]

If Talonflame is going to be added at all, it can be no earlier than after beating Samson. Talonflame laughs at everything Samson has.

So do Crobat and Archeops, except for Samson's Lucario. Heck, even Emolga laughs at Samson.

EDIT: I distinctly remember watching someone's Reborn LP where he was using Crobat. Most of the time, it would get off a strong hit or two with Acrobatics and then faint. This is approximately representative of Talonflame's power.

dondon, I'm not going to ask you again, feel free to voice your opinion, but please do so more respectfully. If you continue to act so condescending you won't like the outcome.

How am I being condescending? I have not insulted a single person thus far aside from the original "are you fucking kidding me" comment that was directed at no one in particular. I am guilty of being aggressive when it comes to pointing out contradiction, but that's not something that I think I should apologize for.

Edited March 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Chase]

I can -rationalize- with before Spinel Town, because you would have to grind the hell out of it before Serra to use it against her, but it would absolute decimate Samson period. It would also put some pressure on Luna and Radomus.

Before Florinia? That's downright stupid.

The gauntlet has already been thrown. It's -not- happening. You've all said your peace. Thanks for that. I suppose.

Crobat and Emolga are lesser used Pokémon in any sense of the word. These Pokémon are ENCOURAGED to be used in this game over things you would see in OU on a somewhat consistent basis. That's part of the games difficulty. Archeops has a CRIPPLING ability as opposed to a constant boon in Gale Wings, and Archeops is at risk against Samson if played horridly.

[Commander]

How about instead of out of stock, "low on stock" and a price tag behind it saying that if you want to use this starter this amount of money will be deducted from your account if you choose this starter, (i.e. virtually all of it meaning you can't buy poke balls or what else immediately)

I like this idea. I really like this idea. And for Torchic, it'll cost 3,150 meaning you'd have to sell you're potion to the ice cream vendor outside before entering the grand hall.

Maybe by picking a certain Pokemon it'd trigger something to do with the Department Store with picking the top tier Pokemon meaning we wouldn't have access to it until post game, but picking one of he weaker starters we'd have access right away and so on (that wouldn't be too hard to program, would it?).

[Deleted User]

How am I being condescending? I have not insulted a single person thus far aside from the original "are you fucking kidding me" comment that was directed at no one in particular. I am guilty of being aggressive when it comes to pointing out contradiction, but that's not something that I think I should apologize for.

No, it doesn't. Competitive Pokemon is not in-game Pokemon. Repeat after me, kids.

"Competitive Pokemon is not in-game Pokemon."

Golbat is RU, Glalie is RU, Qwilfish is RU. Man, they sure are some broken Pokemon.

If you want consistent damage that doesn't require a charge turn, pick your poison between Peck and Ember. Yikes.

I'm not going to ask you to apologize, just simmer down, you can be more pleasant than this and not lead to something that really gets out of hand.

[Sapp]

ITT: Kids are mad they cant use Talonflame

[Alilatias]

dondon, I'm not going to ask you again, feel free to voice your opinion, but please do so more respectfully. If you continue to act so condescending you won't like the outcome.

Eh, how is he condescending though?

Looking through the actual moveset myself, yeah, I kinda see his point. But at the same time, Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are both move tutor attacks, and the move tutor isn't exactly very far into the game anymore. One could argue that if Talonflame's early learnset is bad, what's to stop them from just ignoring it until they reach the point in the game where that Pokemon would become very relevant and leveling it up then, thus skipping most of the struggle?

This thread's purpose isn't about arguing over the placement of a Pokemon with a bad early level moveset that becomes potentially amazing towards the second half of the game. It's about Pokemon available towards the second half of the game that would normally not be considered for use at all because of how late in the game they're in.

---

I think before we continue any further about arguing about specific Pokemon placement, we should be looking at something that is probably just as important, if not even more than individual Pokemon - the placement of TMs. As it is now, we probably only have access to about a third of the TMs in the whole game, some of the late-game ones actually being way stronger than what we don't actually have yet!

For example, Charlotte gives us Flamethrower, but its weaker counterpart Incinerate is nowhere to be found. I'm not saying replace Charlotte's Flamethrower, I'm saying to place Incinerate somewhere earlier in the game, like maybe within the volcano somewhere.

And for some reason, we get Shadow Ball rather early in the game, and the list of Pokemon that learn Shadow Ball compared to the weaker physical Shadow Claw is 2-3x larger than the latter. We get the Brick Break TM from Samson, but we don't have Power-Up Punch or Low Sweep yet. Assuming the prize for defeating Ciel later on would be Acrobatics, having Aerial Ace or Sky Drop available earlier wouldn't be bad. (Would help spruce up Talonflame's bad early level learnset, actually - although it could be used as justification for pushing back Talonflame too.)

Someone brought up Kabutop's terrible learnset. A Smack Down or Rock Tomb TM being available would actually make Kabutops not completely terrible.

---

My suggestion for giving an egg move to the lesser used starters got completely ignored. I don't know if it just got buried under the Talonflame debate or it's not that good of an idea.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Alilatias

[Personthing]

I like this idea. I really like this idea. And for Torchic, it'll cost 3,150 meaning you'd have to sell you're potion to the ice cream vendor outside before entering the grand hall.

Maybe by picking a certain Pokemon it'd trigger something to do with the Department Store with picking the top tier Pokemon meaning we wouldn't have access to it until post game, but picking one of he weaker starters we'd have access right away and so on (that wouldn't be too hard to program, would it?).

That's excessively punishing the player for choosing a stronger starter. What if they chose Torchic or Froakie because they really like those pokemon? (I prefer Cyndaquil myself) Also, having to sell an item you start with, without any hints is far too punishing to anyone playing blind. (Especially since the Ice Cream vendor ONLY appears during a sunny day) why not reward the player for choosing a weaker starter, rather than punishing them for choosing a stronger one?

EDIT: Why is my post formatting itself like this? It's not something that's intentional.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Chase]

the Wynaut is an intended pun. There's not a way around it.

At least you would be ALLOWED to use those Pokémon. I don't see where this would be too far fetched and unreasonable.

[Commander]

I don't think it's too far-fetched either. Selling the item was my clever way of making Torchic a bit harder to obtain over the other pokemon considering it's the strongest. Actually, I just want to see someone wanting Torchic to go into a complete rage. Seeing as they wouldn't have enough money.

[dondon151]

My suggestion for giving an egg move to the lesser used starters got completely ignored. I don't know if it just got buried under the Talonflame debate or it's not that good of an idea.

It got buried. I don't think it's a bad idea. The issue is that egg moves which are available immediately are either too strong or too weak. Take Squirtle, for example. What are we going to give it? Aqua Jet works for a L5 Pokemon, but it's so weak later on. Water Spout works for a developed Blastoise, but it's absurdly strong at L5.

I think one way to slightly equalize the strength of the starters is to introduce a pledge tutor at an appropriate point in the game. That way, all starters will at least have access to a decent STAB move with no drawback.

[MetalKing1417]

That's excessively punishing the player for choosing a stronger starter. What if they chose Torchic or Froakie because they really like those pokemon? (I prefer Cyndaquil myself) Also, having to sell an item you start with is far too punishing to anyone playing blind. (Especially because the Ice Cream vendor ONLY appears during a sunny day) why not reward the player for choosing a weaker starter, rather than punishing them for choosing a stronger one?

EDIT: Why is my post formatting itself like this? It's not something that's intentional.

The idea is to allow the player to choose a starter they like but also inform them that if you do choose them, you will lose a little in the beginning and possibly encourage them to start with another pokemon. I do agree though, forcing a player to sell an item to the ice cream vendor if they want to get the starter they want will excessively punish blind playthroughers who just want that starter, not to mention getting it is too luck based.

[Alilatias]

It got buried. I don't think it's a bad idea. The issue is that egg moves which are available immediately are either too strong or too weak. Take Squirtle, for example. What are we going to give it? Aqua Jet works for a L5 Pokemon, but it's so weak later on. Water Spout works for a developed Blastoise, but it's absurdly strong at L5.

I think one way to slightly equalize the strength of the starters is to introduce a pledge tutor at an appropriate point in the game. That way, all starters will at least have access to a decent STAB move with no drawback.

The egg moves I had in mind would be of the more strategic type or to make up for deficiencies in their early learnset.

Squirtle for instance isn't lacking in water moves, it's the abilities that are a bit lacking + it can't really use any of the currently available TMs (until we get Surf, I guess). So giving Yawn to Squirtle at the beginning of the game probably wouldn't be much of an issue, considering Squirtle is weak against the first two gyms (and Yawn won't even work in Julia's Electric Field).

Chikorita has problems all-around. So it could start with something stronger, like an early Aromatherapy or Leech Seed. Maybe even Counter.

Totodile doesn't learn any physical Water moves until Aqua Tail in the 60's or we get Dive/Waterfall. Having Aqua Jet would be greatly appreciated.

So on and so forth, on a case by case basis, I guess?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Alilatias

[Personthing]

The idea is to allow the player to choose a starter they like but also inform them that if you do choose them, you will lose a little in the beginning and possibly encourage them to start with another pokemon. I do agree though, forcing a player to sell an item to the ice cream vendor if they want to get the starter they want will excessively punish blind playthroughers who just want that starter, not to mention getting it is too luck based.

Perhaps, but losing money is just a tedious pain. This right here is what feels excessive to me:

Maybe by picking a certain Pokemon it'd trigger something to do with the Department Store with picking the top tier Pokemon meaning we wouldn't have access to it until post game, but picking one of he weaker starters we'd have access right away and so on (that wouldn't be too hard to program, would it?).

Unless I'm being dumb and misreading, his suggestion is to not allow the player any access to the department store until the post game should someone choose Torchic. I'm sorry, but that's just absurd.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[ShatteredSkys]

how to start a war on reborn: mention talonflame:/

[Amethyst]

Okay, so this topic needs to get back on track.

I can play with the starter-balancing idea myself but it's not something I'm planning on getting in E15 anyway if at all

And this Talonflame thing is way out of hand for a topic that said don't bother with this in the first place.

Any further posts continuing these discussions will be warned for off-topic posting. Let's focus on the subject at hand. Thanks!