"The Axe"

[Chase]

Pangoro has an array of uses and they -should- be considered.

Scrappy for example allows Pangoro to completely mix it up with Shade with it's entire learnset.

Iron Fist however, would only affect Hammer Arm (Move Tutor at earliest, level 57 at latest) and Sky Uppercut, and would not be able to be used in conjunction with Foresight which would mean Ghosts only have to contend with Dark type attacks.

Pangoro's learnset consists of only three types, Dark, Fighting, and Normal.

Sky Uppercut could be a boon with no penalty, but the superior Hammer Arm comes with a draw back (losing a speed stage) after each use, making Metronome a horrid argument as to why it shouldn't happen.

It's good enough that I think Pangoro would need to replace a Pokemon if it was to be moved further.

---

I have already submitted Makuhita. Hariyama's Thick Fat is an incredibly valuable ability that allows it to be an option against things like Serra and Charlotte (although the latter might have burn potential), get's natural level up access to Knock-Off when Pangoro doesn't (Crunch is better damage wise, but items will be a factor in higher echolon Reborn matches.) and get's acess to Fake Out to hinder opponents and Belly Drum which gives it sweeping potential.

---

Azery is mostly right when it comes to coverage moves. It would need an ORAS esque tutor or TM to gain some coverage ability.

---

Pangoro doesn't get Power-Up Punch by level up, so that's a non-issue as well. It's biggest questions are is having it before Shade going to break his battle (and if will-o-wisp is a thing, the only set that would be in question is Scrappy sets) and if it finds more dominating uses than Hariyama after Florinia.....speaking of Rini, Pancham doesn't get the hope of evolving before her gym battle, Hariyama shuts down Flobot.

[Azeria]

Continueing on with the topic,I'd think it'd be better if Hariyama got moved to AFTER Florinia(Similar to how the Scraggy event originally worked)It would make florinia harder,especially since the only other mons that can curbstomp her are the fire fighting trio and Pew pew Pew Kricketune,Having a lot of them would be unhealthy

[Chase]

Azery, I've been tracking and even -lapping- you buddy.

Solution: Swap out Makuhita for Pancham in the Slums, move Makuhita back.

[Amethyst]

I'm really not too concerned with Hariyama's place since it isn't an especially dominant or popular choice as the game goes on. Like Kricketune, being good against Florinia is almost its one claim to fame (it has application elsewhere, but not quite so widely) and I don't feel the need to take that away.

Ultimately I'm not looking to change a -ton- of things. Just the things that are obviously improperly placed.

[Azeria]

Kricketune doesnt need to be moved because it falls off around Shelly,though changing Skrelp to an Old Rod mon would be better because it evolves at the same level as Noibat but that thing has crappy stats. Skrelp is slightly better off but it's very similar and being obtainable earlier would make it more usable.

[Pausaunias]

fireheart4560 chikorita and bulbasaur are not weak at all. As startes in 1st and 2nd gen bulba is first in strength (bo charmander or squirtle) and chico second in 2nd gen after tontodile. so you cant say that they are weak. Plus it depends, how strong they, are in players skills and not in stats so you cannot tell them weak!!!

her words in page 3

Edited March 7, 2015 by Pausaunias

[Chase]

Got you covered, Pausaunias.

Ame, I'm not terribly certain it "falls off" - as per my argument about Thick Fat. Granted, it is not a popular fighting type (and Pangoro isn't either.) and there are usually better choices later that replace it, but my argument is that the Pokemon is fairly useful against the likes of Serra and Charlotte due to that reason.

That being said, I don't have the calcs for dealing with Charlotte in her field, but I'm certain that Eruption Typhlosion taking a Fake-Out right out the gate is a positive for the player without making much analysis on that end.

To further make the argument, -Guts- is also a workable ability in those areas where it's attack would be boosted as opposed to halved b burns.

---

In contrast, Pangoro has Scrappy, which is a boon, and Iron Fist - which it doesn't get a lot of moves to justify considering as a boon. Pangoro -to me- seems like the better fit -there- due to not being able to evolve before Florinia and so on and so forth. If you're not concerned about Hariyama being used for a while, you could just move it somewhere -after- Rini but before Corey or something relatively soon.

It may not be the most liked fighting type, but Boppoyama has some serious ceiling -well- past Florinia.

---

Skrelp being a lower rod would need it to be moved earlier in the game or lowered in level a tad, in my opinion.

[dondon151]

Hariyama is an underrated Pokemon, but it's exactly the kind of Pokemon that we need available in Reborn. It's not normally frequently used in-game (except in, like, Pokemon Emerald playthroughs) and it has significant disadvantages compared to more popular fighting-types, but it has very usable niches in doubles and also as a bulky Guts Pokemon with Facade.

You can't just go about listing every advantage that a Pokemon has and then proceed to declare it too strong for the game. Every Pokemon has its niche; some are bigger than others; some are more interesting than others. If you want a fun exercise, you can try doing this for every Pokemon in the game - for example, Goldeen is too strong because it has Lightningrod for an electric-type gym and the AI can't see absorbing abilities, it has well-distributed stats, it actually learns a physical water-type STAB at a reasonable level. Goldeen OP, axe Goldeen. Or, Budew is too strong because it can evolve into Roselia instantly with happiness grinding, its BST is better distributed than tier 2 grass-type starters, and its level up movepool contains strong moves. Budew OP, axe Budew.

At this rate, we can axe every half-decent Pokemon in the game. Ekans? Glare + Coil too strong. Bidoof? Moody too strong. Litleo? Moxie + trade EXP bonus too strong. And so on. For a Pokemon that deserves the axe, there needs to be several criteria that it meets. Does it steamroll through general trainer battles? Does it trivialize too many boss battles? Does it crowd out other available candidates from being used (i.e., are too many players using it instead of something else that does a similar job)? If it doesn't meet all 3 of these criteria, I don't think it deserves the guillotine.

This is also why I think it might be useful for the game to gather and send usage stats, if at all possible, so we can cease speculation on which Pokemon we think are overused and empirically determine which Pokemon are actually overused.

Edited March 7, 2015 by dondon151

[Knight_Teutonic]

You guys are all masochist. Ame says from the beginning that she won't put any overpowered pokémon available before the end of the game and people are still trying to come up with suggestions to punish players who choose torchic and froakie as their starters? Bird Jesus, let them be!

[Guzam]

About the Electrike Joltik thing. Electrike should definitely be moved to after Julia. Why? It gets Lightningrod making it near invincible against her. It doesn't matter if her electrode blows up on it because then the electrode is dead. This argument can also be used for Goldeen as it can't take super effective damage from Julia at all. I think these two should either be after Julia or something like that.

[Deleted User]

I'm a supporter of moving Hariyama back to beyond Serra. Pancham would be the most logical replacement.

[Personthing]

I feel like a lot of the arguments in this thread basically become: "X pokemon is good against X gym leader. Therefore, we should move it to after that Gym Leader." I mean, isn't that the point of pokemon like Trubbish or Makuhita? Most people would completely ignore them if they didn't have the niche of being useful against Julia and/or Florinia, for example. (Trubbish is useful for both of them because Toxic spikes) If we move any pokemon who can be useful against a certain Gym Leader to after them, we're being needlessly limited option wise. It's not interesting to have no options to get around a challenge, and are instead forced to not have any advantage whatsoever even if we are willing to go the extra distance to gain that advantage.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Commander]

I'm a supporter of moving Hariyama back to beyond Serra. Pancham would be the most logical replacement.

I'm kind of with Ame and say Makuhita should stay where it is or be available shortly after Florinia. Pushing it back that far would make it never used as there are so many better options at that point. I do agree Pancham needs to be pushed back because it's not that good and there's a freaking Scraggy where you can catch it. (If needed it might not be a bad idea to just switch the two).

I'll reiterate on the Electrike vs Joltik. Joltik is pretty bad until it evolves. I was actually going to use Galvantula for the Radomus fight, but that level is what turned me away. Seriously, I feel it's in the perfect spot, just a bit underleveled. Tynamo wouldn't work either because that Pokemon is horrible I mean HORRIBLE, and takes forever to level up into a pretty sucky Eeletrik. It's really only good once it evolves into Eelektross. I actually think we might see more use out of the Eel in later episodes seeing who we're up against (probably would've worked well against Terra's Excadrill).

Now if Manectric was too powerful for the early game (which it's not due to it's limited learning movepool), Blitzle would be the best replacement. Though Flame wheel would make it problematic with the Shelly fight so I'd suggest him being available afterward. Very underrated Pokemon that's for sure and it'd be great considering it starts better than Manectric.

[Azeria]

I still want to have Slugma earlier because at the point it's available,there are mons like Arcanine,Torkoal,(Fire Starters) and Ninetales available all of which outclass it....it aint even that good :/ though it's habitat makes sense,how about an egg?

[Etesian]

I'm kind of with Ame and say Makuhita should stay where it is or be available shortly after Florinia. Pushing it back that far would make it never used as there are so many better options at that point. I do agree Pancham needs to be pushed back because it's not that good and there's a freaking Scraggy where you can catch it. (If needed it might not be a bad idea to just switch the two).

I'll reiterate on the Electrike vs Joltik. Joltik is pretty bad until it evolves. I was actually going to use Galvantula for the Radomus fight, but that level is what turned me away. Seriously, I feel it's in the perfect spot, just a bit underleveled. Tynamo wouldn't work either because that Pokemon is horrible I mean HORRIBLE, and takes forever to level up into a pretty sucky Eeletrik. It's really only good once it evolves into Eelektross. I actually think we might see more use out of the Eel in later episodes seeing who we're up against (probably would've worked well against Terra's Excadrill).

Now if Manectric was too powerful for the early game (which it's not due to it's limited learning movepool), Blitzle would be the best replacement. Though Flame wheel would make it problematic with the Shelly fight so I'd suggest him being available afterward. Very underrated Pokemon that's for sure and it'd be great considering it starts better than Manectric.

It's just fine where it is IMO. After Florinia, the following gym types are Poison, Bug, Ghost, Fighting, Poison and then Ice, for which you'll have plenty of otpions for at that point, better ones than Hariyama.

I also think that Elektrike and Joltik are fine where they are. Manectric just sucks without it's mega, it'd only see use if it's available at the stage of the game level-wise at which it evolves, so kind of where it is right now. And Galvantula is rather good, held behind only by the level it's evolved at, but that's another topic. There's also not so many spider Pokemon around, not much can replace it. All that work with the webs/logs for an Ariados would hardly be worth it.

And Blitzle could actually work. It's very similar to Manectric stat- and coverage-wise. It getting Fire moves shouldn't be a problem. By the time you reach Shelly, you can already get 5 (iirc) Fire types. It might be a little too early, but it could work.

[Lostelle]

Manectric is good throughout the game. Discharge completely shuts down Shade.

[Felicity]

I'm sorry to bring Talon back up but just to note, I'm pretty sure you can breed will 'o onto talon. A nigh unparraleled crippler? Naw. Also, I don't think it was mentioned, but Talon would kinda hurt Charlotte too. Volcarona won't take a BB/Acrobatics and Typhlosions Eruption won't be a thing ever again, if it didn't take it to yellow I'd be shocked. Looking back on it, a lot of charlottes team is physically frail, Talon would hurt her a lot. Furthermore, in game healing is good because it's Always a sollid 50%. When you're running with healing items that just don't heal enough, 50% is nice. Especially if one was caught off guard and didn't stock up, independent of having money. Next, this is being looked at from a knowledgable stand point. You're a new player say, you get some birds but then- oh look-the bird renowned in OU. You've heard of how hard reborn is, Talon would be a great powerhouse! This is what a new player will probs be thinking. And so, poor pidgey and tranquil will never get a look in.

In regards to the starter thing, it was being looked at from the PoV of an experienced player. This entire shindig we have going is actually intended to basically be a big ol' beta with constant feedback looking to finish it for the new player. Therefore, I think mugging is a perfectly viable option. It still happens, look at the Salesman event now, just rescript that.

EDIT Blitzle should replace manectric imo, hail to the lightning dog but Mane is too strong with Charge beam in the common factory feild

[Qaaz]

Any further posts continuing these discussions will be warned for off-topic posting. Let's focus on the subject at hand. Thanks!

Oh Dobby, I will miss you :'(

[Felicity]

Oh Dobby, I will miss you :'(

Hey, I was late to the party but I still had some points >.> Plus I didn't get that far, I got tired of reading 5+ pages. And I did speak of the starter thing too!

And I'll take the warning point, I made valid points there dammit

[Chase]

Alright, look. I think we -all- have relative ideas for how Reborn should go about it's Pokemon distribution. After having a rather unsettling debate with Ame personally, there are some things that I've gathered -ABSOLUTELY- matter when considering who goes where.,

- Yes, 'X Mon breaks leader' is an absolutely valid reason to axe a Pokemon. This is because one of the premises of the game is to encourage using Pokemon that you normally would not throughout to the point where creativity and and cunning is made a near-need.

Exhibit 'A' here is the Zubat line, which (Azery, THIS IS WHERE YOU WERE WRONG ARRRGH) is -only- found in Byxbysion Wasteland caves. Ame's intent behind this was to ensure Kiki has a shred of dignity when facing opponents as Crobat is an absolute terror and given enough TLC is indeed a very reliable partner that does break that area of the game. I provided a lot of what I thought justified putting Zubat in Azery's Apophyll cave, such as the complete halt the story would take to raise Golbat's friendship at that point, to the point where Kiki doesn't tangibly reward the player with anything other than story progression, which could put a serious bind on your team if you're not careful.

It's for naught. If -all- of Reborn's leaders have a chance to require critical thinking and strategy, then that's a major seller on this game over rewarding the player for tenacity and patience. As Dondon earlier argued, Zubat has later chances to shine and may even -still- be considered a major factor against Samson.

- We're dealing with the struggle of trying to put 700+ Pokemon in a spot where they can be "considered"......It's not going to happen with them all, but the goal is to be relatively -close- to that goal

Now to elaborate on somethings

I'm in the camp that would love to see TYNAMO replace Electrike over Blitzle. Yes, I understand that Blitzle is a near perfect -MATCH- for the spot, but Tynamo's difficulty make's it a Pokemon that wouldn't see much use anywhere else in the game, while still rewarding the player with a Levitate electric type Pokemon. Blitzle gets access to Flame Wheel which makes it a boon against Shelly, and it's also a fast Pokemon. Eelectrik isn't very good - which makes it PERFECT for the beginning of the game when the trainer is supposed to be just as green. ---- The bottom line here though, is that Magnemite outclasses both Zebstrika -and- Eelectrik fairly quickly and is probably SAFE due to being one of the few chances the player has at beating Arceus. There's not a wide ceiling for either Pokemon, but getting access to Tynamo would give it a chance to shine as one of the best coverage mons possible. It'll get forgotten -much like it did in the Gen 5 games it originated from - if put much later.

My insistence on moving Makuhita -after- Florinia hinges not on it's own strengths, but that putting Pancham in it's place and moving Makuhita -just- after Flobot would at least leave both options viable (giving Panda a spotlight it wouldn't have now because Scraggy, while leaving Hariyama as a frontrunner early in for fights later on that players might consider taking advantage of. Hell, you can probably find Makuhita in the Rhindocrine Jungle caves or out and about in the Jasper Ward if you must preserve it's early spot, but it's a little of overkill for Flobot and it would help Pancham shine

if Pancham isn't getting moved to the Slums, then leave Makuhita where it is...or we really could be sadistic and force players to go Mankey or nothing.

[Etesian]

^^Just to confirm something then: does something breaking a gym leader get balanced by difficulty of acquirement? Let's take Ursaring and Galvantula for examples. Ursaring cleanly 2HKOs (or OHKO) with Quick Feet (or Guts) whatever 4-5 Pokemon Corey sends in first, but Teddiursa is such a huge pain to train that I've only used it against Corey once, just to try it. Similarly, you have to go through the tedium of the Forrest puzzle to get Joltik, which is then gotten at level 30.

[Azeria]

Alright, look. I think we -all- have relative ideas for how Reborn should go about it's Pokemon distribution. After having a rather unsettling debate with Ame personally, there are some things that I've gathered -ABSOLUTELY- matter when considering who goes where.,

- Yes, 'X Mon breaks leader' is an absolutely valid reason to axe a Pokemon. This is because one of the premises of the game is to encourage using Pokemon that you normally would not throughout to the point where creativity and and cunning is made a near-need.

Exhibit 'A' here is the Zubat line, which (Azery, THIS IS WHERE YOU WERE WRONG ARRRGH) is -only- found in Byxbysion Wasteland caves. Ame's intent behind this was to ensure Kiki has a shred of dignity when facing opponents as Crobat is an absolute terror and given enough TLC is indeed a very reliable partner that does break that area of the game. I provided a lot of what I thought justified putting Zubat in Azery's Apophyll cave, such as the complete halt the story would take to raise Golbat's friendship at that point, to the point where Kiki doesn't tangibly reward the player with anything other than story progression, which could put a serious bind on your team if you're not careful.

It's for naught. If -all- of Reborn's leaders have a chance to require critical thinking and strategy, then that's a major seller on this game over rewarding the player for tenacity and patience. As Dondon earlier argued, Zubat has later chances to shine and may even -still- be considered a major factor against Samson.

- We're dealing with the struggle of trying to put 700+ Pokemon in a spot where they can be "considered"......It's not going to happen with them all, but the goal is to be relatively -close- to that goal

Now to elaborate on somethings

I'm in the camp that would love to see TYNAMO replace Electrike over Blitzle. Yes, I understand that Blitzle is a near perfect -MATCH- for the spot, but Tynamo's difficulty make's it a Pokemon that wouldn't see much use anywhere else in the game, while still rewarding the player with a Levitate electric type Pokemon. Blitzle gets access to Flame Wheel which makes it a boon against Shelly, and it's also a fast Pokemon. Eelectrik isn't very good - which makes it PERFECT for the beginning of the game when the trainer is supposed to be just as green. ---- The bottom line here though, is that Magnemite outclasses both Zebstrika -and- Eelectrik fairly quickly and is probably SAFE due to being one of the few chances the player has at beating Arceus. There's not a wide ceiling for either Pokemon, but getting access to Tynamo would give it a chance to shine as one of the best coverage mons possible. It'll get forgotten -much like it did in the Gen 5 games it originated from - if put much later.

My insistence on moving Makuhita -after- Florinia hinges not on it's own strengths, but that putting Pancham in it's place and moving Makuhita -just- after Flobot would at least leave both options viable (giving Panda a spotlight it wouldn't have now because Scraggy, while leaving Hariyama as a frontrunner early in for fights later on that players might consider taking advantage of. Hell, you can probably find Makuhita in the Rhindocrine Jungle caves or out and about in the Jasper Ward if you must preserve it's early spot, but it's a little of overkill for Flobot and it would help Pancham shine

if Pancham isn't getting moved to the Slums, then leave Makuhita where it is...or we really could be sadistic and force players to go Mankey or nothing.

....I could've sworn i found one in Apophylll

WAIIII GAME WAIII ;~: I WANT MY TRUSTY BROBAT

Anyways i've actually been wondering why the slowpoke line isnt in Ametrine...Sure it's really good but we're at the point where the only other gym it's SE against is Rock and there are plenty of water types to help with that...

Also Hilda,Crobat completeyl curbstomps both Kiki and Samson,Acrobatics gets boost from the Hightstriker and there's the flying gem stuff available before that...Crobat is a High ranking mon in reborn and you will never regret using it....

Tynamo is similar to Magikarp:It itself is trash but the rare trainer that spends the time nurturing it is rewarded with an electric eel-fish with 0 weaknesses and one that's able to destroy stuff very easily....thing is that it's level up movepool is rather barren but Discharge/Thunder Bolt,Crush Claw and Crunch along with coil after Aya'll make it really good(Though if you're willing to go through the torture it learns wild charge at level 54)

[Shamitako]

if Pancham isn't getting moved to the Slums, then leave Makuhita where it is...or we really could be sadistic and force players to go Mankey or nothing.

But I like the Mankey

After reading through the thread, I have to agree with moving replacing Makuhita with Pancham and moving Makuhita just beyond Rini. I'm not going to bother making arguments, since said arguments have already been made several times over and stated far better than I ever could

[Personthing]

My insistence on moving Makuhita -after- Florinia hinges not on it's own strengths, but that putting Pancham in it's place and moving Makuhita -just- after Flobot would at least leave both options viable (giving Panda a spotlight it wouldn't have now because Scraggy, while leaving Hariyama as a frontrunner early in for fights later on that players might consider taking advantage of. Hell, you can probably find Makuhita in the Rhindocrine Jungle caves or out and about in the Jasper Ward if you must preserve it's early spot, but it's a little of overkill for Flobot and it would help Pancham shine

if Pancham isn't getting moved to the Slums, then leave Makuhita where it is...or we really could be sadistic and force players to go Mankey or nothing.

Against Florinia is one of the few (maybe even the only) fights where Makuhita truly shines when compared to it's competition. If you were to move it later, I can guarantee that almost no one would ever use it. You may argue it has Thick Fat for fighting Serra and Charlotte, but by that point there are tons of better options to face off against those leaders with. Not to mention it is bad against Corey, Shelly, Shade, and Aya. Being useful in one gym battle, and being somewhat useful in two others when it's going to struggle through a very large chunk of the game hardly warrants being axed.

Pancham's usage is another issue entirely. Perhaps move it into one of the back alleys in the Perdiot Ward, so that people may actually decide to use it?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Commander]

Here's the thing about the Tynamo line: it's only useable once it reaches somewhere around lv 55. Getting it that early means you'll have to slowly level it up (it is an experience hog too) and not be able to use it until Samson. During this time, you'd have access to Mareep, Magneton, Chinchou, Voltorb, Pikachu, Pachirusu, Helioptile, Jolteon, Emolga, and the list goes on and on. I feel it's in it's proper place because you at least get through the painful part (I Audino trained one on my Black game...Leveling up a Deino in that area was way faster). There's a big difference between a rewarding grind and a ludicrous one. If you don't believe me, try grinding an Egg Tynamo off wild Pokemon around the Grand Hall before moving to the next and see how long it takes you before you give up on it. (At least the one we get is a trade...that helps a lot).

Moving on though, do you think Audino would be good if it were available about where Happiny was. While Blissey is great competitively, it really falls from grace in this game making it a bit of a wasted spot. Audino has a bit more offensive power, but it doesn't learn too many good moves so it'd be a good balance.