Necessarily Awkward Gamestuff

[Amethyst]

[00:39:36] Amethyst: Give me like half an hour to make this post I've been putting off for weeks and I'll get it set up.

[00:39:53] Hilda: oh, what's the post about?

[00:40:31] Amethyst: necessarily awkward gamestuff

[00:40:50] Amethyst: in fact i think i'll just make that the topic title

[00:40:52] Amethyst: thanks

So it turns out Pokemon was not designed to have a million casual events, or to have the story extend well beyond the ~level 50's.

Oops.

So there's a couple different issues that need to be talked about regarding the usability of event Pokemon in-game. For problems like these, there isn't really a best solution, and in fact, there may not even be a good solution, so, I'm leaving it to you guys.

Let's face it, some of the event rewards kind of suck, like when you get a Growlithe that's ten levels behind the rest of your team at that point in the story, or a Piplup that's... 40 levels behind your team. Like, why? And why bother?

Well, many players won't. It's just not enjoyable to have to train up a new teammate three thousand levels higher to be able to use it, and requiring players to do so isn't consistent with the game's goal of reducing the necessity to grind as much as possible. So, back to the why, I'll talk about why it's like this in the first place.

...Because the alternative is just really awkward. That's the bottom line. That said, I acknowledge that awkwardness is preferable to tedium, which is why many of these events will have their levels increased with E15. However, we need to acknowledge the alternatives suck, and pick the lesser of the evils. So let's take an example like Piplup. There are three options:

• A) You get a level 15 Piplup, which is understandable, but raising it sucks.
• You get a level 50 Piplup and have to ask what kind of nutjob has been cramming Everstones down its throat for the past three years, and have to level it twice (oh noooo), before moving on with life.
• C) You get a level 50 Empoleon, which is awesome, but it also doesn't make sense because who's just going to part with the high-level evo form they raised? Plus you have to breed for the lower forms, and you don't get to feel like you've raised it.

The pros and cons of each are pretty much that simple, but avoiding those weird parts of B and C is what lead me to put such events in at their current levels. Worth? I'll let you decide.

---

The second half of this has been solved thanks to madf0x.

There's a part two to this as well, as was deliberated on in a different recent topic. Namely, someone brought up the potential idea of having event Pokemon, like with Reborn's egg events, occasionally come with egg moves.

So, yeah, you just picked up that Misdreavus which is great and all because Misdreavus is way cuter than Gastly so good for you, buuuuut most self-respecting Mismagius like to pack Destiny Bond, or at least Nasty Plot... both of which are egg moves, so do you reaaaalllly wanna pause the story and go chain breed those onto it and then grind it all the way up from level one.. or do you just wanna keep your current team and go about your business? It's pretty clear what most players will pick.

I would love to have event Pokemon come with egg moves as well, however, there's a problem (as I mentioned in the other topic as well.) Namely, the way in which egg moves are put onto event Pokemon, requires that that new Pokemon be in the player's party at the time it's obtained. ...Which means the player will need an empty slot. I don't know about you, but when the Pokemon can usually just be sent to the box automatically (like all non-egg events currently are (incidentally that's because eggs suffer from this same issue)), I don't like to have to drop everything, go allll the way back to a PC, deposit a Pokemon and then come allllll the way back to the event and walk through half of it again.

But, is that worth getting egg moves? ...You decide.

Players also suggested a mediating option in the other topic, specifically that maybe only Pokemon with easy-access to a nearby PC, such as the ones in 7th St, should require an empty slot for modifications. While that -could- be a good compromise, it can be frustrating in other regards. Specifically, setting it up in that way causes events to be inconsistent. Currently we can say all non-eggs go to the PC if the party is full, but if we take that solution, then instead we have to say welllll, -some- events can go straight to the PC but then some others don't which becomes unclear and may lead to players falsely expecting one scenario or the other. It is always preferable to keep things as consistent as possible. However, I will include this as an option in case people find the inconsistency to be #worth.

A second compromise I've thought of is something like, IF the player has an empty spot, they gain the event Pokemon with the egg move, otherwise it will go to the PC with no egg move. However, most players are going to walk around with a full party regardless, and new players might not know when they're about to stumble onto an event. This could cause those unknowing players to accidentally pass up these moves without knowing it, which could be really frustrating.

(I would like to be able to give the player the choice-- do you want to come back for the egg move with an empty spot, or send the Pokemon to the PC with no egg move?-- but there's really no way to thematically justify that)

To recap, our options here are as follows:

• A) You get the Pokemon and it goes to your PC with no egg moves.
• You have to have an empty slot to get the Pokemon and it comes with egg moves.
• C) If the Pokemon is near a PC you have to have an empty slot, and it comes with egg moves, but if not, it goes to the PC with no egg moves
• D) If the player has an empty slot, they get the Pokemon with egg moves, but if not it goes to the PC with no egg moves.

To reiterate, none of these scenarios are ideal, (or else we wouldn't need a poll like this) but they are the best options we have for now, so let's figure out what you all want to go with.

[Chase]

A. and A. because I'm HEARTLESS....

Okay, actually, it's just because I feel like being able to raise the Pokemon allows the player to complete the dex entries -and- have a sense of worth when raising the Pokemon up. I understand that getting a low leveled starter or something is not ideal ready to use - but I feel like hard work and completionist values -SHOULD- outweigh convenience - especially in a game where everything else is inconvenient so why should -this- of all things be?

Regarding event Pokemon, I kinda feel like it's a bit too complicated to make that judgement call depending on where some of the events are, unless the player is PROMPTED and allowed to freely decide if they want the egg move or not every single time. If this is the case, I would be inclined to vote "D" for the sake of convenience - as egg moves can be earned through chain breeding later on.

EDIT: change the Egg moves vote to C - if the PC is too far there shouldn't be a need to backtrack if it's impossible or avoidable.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Now, I am not exactly sure how to answer the first... mostly cause I think a halfway approach between the first and second options might be a good idea to take. I guess it is more like Higher Level unevo'd so I will take that option in my vote but hear me out. why not make the Event mon at the time Half the level ((or possibly 3/4)) of the current Badge restriction? It still will need a tad bit of grinding, but not as huge an amount. ((though I guess later levels it does become longer and longer to level, but I digress.)). Later ones will probably start near their evolution levels so they will be more useful quicker, but will still require a bit of a grind to be useful. The investment one needs to put into them at this point is much lower than previous where at the lower levels these mons would be stuck in their base or middle evos for awhile which are legendarily the things that are a pain to train because their base stats are just mad low and the need to heal them etc if they can even take a blow. So, this might ease the requirement of time that need be put into them and make them marginally easier to train. I don't even think it is that much of stretch that some lesser evolved mons are running around at levels higher than their evo's. Reborn is a pretty shitty place in some areas and it would be mad tough for mons to survive or even thrive. As such we see there are very few Pokemon just running around. They are rare and far and few between. Weaker Mons are all very close within the city or within some sort of sanctuary to protect them ((like the fish in the fresh water reservoir in the Fisherman's House.)). But even in the main series games we have seen Mons that are much higher than their normal evo levels that haven't yet. I feel like while some mons probably could figure out how to evolve that Pokemon might not always be able to evolve without a trainer. Maybe they just can't figure it out on their own. While some of the ones with the level requirements do others couldn't figure out how to harness the ability. However they attained high levels because they had to survive in a pretty harsh climate. I don't think it is too far out of the realm of reason that these would collide and cause them to be of this somewhat higher lever.

D for the second option I very much enjoy. It promotes research and knowing what you are getting into and proper planning. Things I believe are very much a presence in the other aspects of Reborn. Like you need to prepare for the Gym Leaders to a degree to defeat them. So, if you properly plan ahead ((and take a disadvantage of having empty slots.)) you are rewarded for doing so. If you don't... tough luck kid. I think that because these elements are present elsewhere in the game, that it would be a very good idea to include them here as well. It further promotes those tenets and rewards players for thinking ahead or planning for events etc...

((and hello again you annoying emote making me look like a buffoon when I am talking... gosh golly darn I hate that thing... Anyway, I closing I believe, that what I have said is a rather intersting way to make it a little more convenient but not too convenient. It allows the Base mons to get up pretty quick, but not fully match your teams levels right out the gate. You still get to raise them, but it cuts out some of the "Oh boy... lets switch this guy into the lead and then switch out my big hitter to take all the attacks and defeat that mon and get half exp for the guy I am training so this will take 10 years stage.))

Also, holy butts... a Wild Hukuna Sensei appeared outside of the RP Forums. This probably means the world is going to end.

[Cepheus]

Well I can answer one question:

"what kind of nutjob has been cramming Everstones down its (Piplups) throat for the past three years?"

Dawn... Dawn did in the Pokemon Anime... because Piplup didn't WANT to evolve she decided to hand him an everstone...

BUT that is just a sidenote...

---

To be honest, I like that high-level un-evolved event... just BECAUSE I hate breeding (I just can't get the hang of it), and the only Pokemon I EVER bred was Eevee (to get hold of ALL of them eeveelutions) and leveling it for a few more levels to evolve isn't that hard... and on the other hand you could just train it as a Piplup until it learns that one move you really want in 4 more levels instead of 10 when evolving...

For the Egg-Move question:

This is a tough one... since Reborn likes to hide things pretty well:

a.) would be reasonable - No Egg Moves whatsoever, because the egg/Pokemon is a wild one and not bred by the player

b.) as it was already stated by yourself - who in their right mind wanders reborn without a full party?? (except in the beginning) - I think that option is a big NO GO!

c.) That one is ok - If the next PC isn't too far away you can go like "Sweet an event... let me just ditch this one, and I'll come back right away!"

d.) "WOOOOOO!!!! I found an Egg/Pokemon yay! ... but I don't have an empty slot... because I NEED all 6 to just get here! (HMs and stuff... god I hate Rock Smash...) is the Egg move worth it, to escape rope to town and come ALL the way back here, which may or may not take me 30-45 minutes AGAIN?"

It would also be a question of what kind of egg-move the Pokemon will get... if the move is a useless piece of... (to the one who uses the Pokemon because of different strategies) the player might be disapointed in the move he got after treveling back to town and back to the Pokemon/Egg.

I stand between A and C.

A = just reasonable, Egg moves are meant to be bred by the player and are some sort of accomplishment.

C = Egg moves are the icing on the cake for those who take the few minutes to come back here with an empty slot.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Cepheus

[Claydoll]

Scenario 1-A: the level of some event pokemon could be slightly adjusted to not be so far behind the expected level at some points of the game. This just applies to the early stages of the game since after a certain point it becomes really easy to level them (easy, but still tedious) and if you go out of your way to invest into such pokemon it's because it was already in your preference, a theme you're running with, or you want to use it as a crutch to progress.

Scenario 2-A: Keeping it as it is would be my choice since it's the least flow/pace breaking route, i do not consider making obtaining pokemon from events a persistant annoyance worth it. While option C is decent the "awkwardness" of having to specify which events apply and which not makes it a tough sell, i personally consider that a majority of players would still not bother with emptying a slot or keeping an empty slot for whenever they find an event pokemon.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Claydoll

[Yash]

I went with A and D..

I think for someone who wants to use a certain pokemon they will not mind training it.. Taking the example of growlithe.. In my latest run I waited all the way till growlithe to get a fire type and trained it up.. It all comes down to the options in the game.. Since there are a bunch of different options available at different stages the pokemon available through events need not necessarily be at the same level as your team.. If you really want the pokemon you will train it regardless and if it's just the type that you need then an alternative is pretty much always available.. Perhaps in a few cases it can be justified as having a high levelled and evolved mon as an event as the trainer could not control it due to a lack of badges/over-levelling..

As for the second one I'd like to suggest an alternate option.. How about having an egg move tutor for the event pokemon? I think this can be managed if we add a "Met in fateful encounter" flag to the event pokemon and having the tutor teach moves to these event pokemon? That way even if the pokemon goes to the PC it can be taught it's egg move.. Or maybe give it a customised one shot TM like item for the egg move??

[dragon-in-night]

Scenario 1: B or C is fine, as long as I don't have to grind, I don't care if it make sense or not.

Scenario 2: B, I willing to go back PC for a good egg move.

[Gaunt]

I went with A and D, A because (as someone already said) if you like the Pokemon you will train it regardless of the level gap if not you will ditch it on the first occasion (or maybe use for one Gym). D only because some egg moves are pretty cool and i would like to try them without having to spend several hours chain breeding (which imo is more tedious than grinding) if this wasn't the case i would go with A for the second question too.

[Sheep]

Who gets to decide which egg moves are on which pokemon? Unless you implement a system with choice you can't make everyone happy.

Also, doesn't putting egg moves on event pokemon provide an incentive to use event pokemon over wild pokemon?

[roqi]

A and B. As much as I dislike grinding I actually like training a little new baby to a powerful 'mon, and it allows more freedom as to what moves I choose to keep without wasting Heart Scales. And B because, yeah, I hate breeding.

[madf0x]

I would love to have event Pokemon come with egg moves as well, however, there's a problem (as I mentioned in the other topic as well.) Namely, the way in which egg moves are put onto event Pokemon, requires that that new Pokemon be in the player's party at the time it's obtained. ...Which means the player will need an empty slot. I don't know about you, but when the Pokemon can usually just be sent to the box automatically (like all non-egg events currently are (incidentally that's because eggs suffer from this same issue)), I don't like to have to drop everything, go allll the way back to a PC, deposit a Pokemon and then come allllll the way back to the event and walk through half of it again.

Uhhh yes you can ame. If you dont add the pokemon straight away you can do something like:

poke=PokeBattle_Pokemon.new(:BUDEW,10,$Trainer)

then use poke variable to modify it using poke.pbLearnMove(:GIGADRAIN) and add it to the party with pbAddPokemon(poke)

Mission accomplished. I could be missing something slightly here, but basically took it straight from the essentials wiki.

[Gaunt]

Uhhh yes you can ame. If you dont add the pokemon straight away you can do something like:

poke=PokeBattle_Pokemon.new(:BUDEW,10,$Trainer)

then use poke variable to modify it using poke.pbLearnMove(:GIGADRAIN) and add it to the party with pbAddPokemon(poke)

Mission accomplished. I could be missing something slightly here, but basically took it straight from the essentials wiki.

You...you just discovered Ame's secret plot to make us suffer more, why did you do it? R.I.P. man...

But really does this work?

[CURIE]

Why aren't more people picking D for the egg moves thing? That way, you can choose whether or not you wanna bother with egg moves, when picking up a new Pokemon.

[Commander]

Why aren't more people picking D for the egg moves thing? That way, you can choose whether or not you wanna bother with egg moves, when picking up a new Pokemon.

That was exactly my thought process when going through the options. Honestly, I don't care for egg moves that much because I'm that weird guy who'd kick butt with a really crappy pokemon (Looks at Emolga).

As for the first option, I chose A. The problem ain't with the Pokemon levels. It's that there really isn't a good place to grind until around Charlotte so people are going to prioritize one Pokemon over another based on how useful it'll be in the long run. Why would you waste your time grinding up a Lv Piplup a couple levels and have to waste a whole bunch of heart scales when you could already have had a Mudkip with all its good moves in a place easy to grind it.

[Captain]

Scenario 1. I choose A. Honestly, the way I play Reborn, It doesn't really matter what level the Pokemon is/evolution state the event Pokemon is in. I mean, at this point in the game (i've beaten episode 14), if I catch a Pokemon I want to use then I'm going to breed it for perfect IVs and give it a nature of my choosing. If it's a Pokemon I want to use then I don't mind grinding it up or even EV training. That being said, I find it a bit weird to catch a fully evolved starter Pokemon. Maybe that's just me.

Scenario 2. I chose B with how I play Reborn and how I will be playing Episode 15 in mind. I'll definitely be going through episode 15 with a full party. Especially after HMs became TMs. That being said, if I encounter an event Pokemon, regardless of my party situation, I'm going to save my game. Whether I want the egg moves or not I wouldn't catch any event Pokemon without an open slot in my party. I do this because I want to soft reset for a good nature. If it's a Pokemon I'm going to use, catching it with a good nature helps the breeding process.

Egg moves or nah, I'm going to have an open slot in my party so I can soft reset for a good nature.

[Alilatias]

I pick A for the first option, if only because I believe there's a different and much simpler solution. Since this game already has level caps fairly close to gym leader levels, and the higher level you go, it becomes harder to grind up basically any low level Pokemon, I think it'd be far better to just add infinitely re-battleable trainers to certain areas of the game (the Grand Hall daily trainers, and adding a trainer to Beryl Ward, Apophyll Academy, the Bysbixion Wasteland, Spinel Town, the research lab in Route 1, Agate Circus, and Calcenon City), because bumping up the levels of certain events only fixes the problem for those particular events. It doesn't fix the problem of people not ever looking at Pokemon available earlier in the game ever again.

Like Commander suggests, it's not the low level of the new Pokemon that's the problem, it's how tedious it is to level up new Pokemon in the first place. Reborn is already designed as such that having an easy grind option doesn't really change the difficulty in any way, while not having one highly discourages players from using new Pokemon (especially Pokemon they've never used before, which is something Reborn is supposed to promote) the further they get in the story. You only really hear about people considering new Pokemon towards the earlier gyms. If you held a survey asking players exactly when their teams are finalized in Reborn pending the availability of certain Pokemon not yet released, I'd imagine most people would answer around Chrysolia Forest/Route 1, which is also coincidentally the point in the game where grinding starts to become incredibly tedious.

It's a page we could take from the Reborn-inspired fangame Pokemon Rejuvenation, that game has infinitely re-battleable Pokemon Breeders and still manages to be incredibly hard, except you can now easily level up other Pokemon on the side that players may have never tried to use before against the gym leaders. Even in the latest release of that game, the creator got several comments about how the the latest gym leader was so hard that they quickly leveled up the early game Sewaddle/Leavanny to see if that would help, in which they discovered it turned out to be a very fun Pokemon to use that ended up being invaluable in the fight (to the point where the creator is now considering giving Leavanny the axe). And that gym leader was in the level 45 range, while the Sewaddle you get is initially level 10.

---

For the second option, I pick B. You already need an empty slot to pick up Egg events in the first place, and the only events that are really that far from a PC are the ones that most people would read a guide on beforehand (particularly Mudkip and Beldum). Plus, if a player had any interest in using that Pokemon, they'd be soft-resetting for a good nature and IV spread in the first place, the potential egg moves the player immediately sees upon that Pokemon showing up in the party may be a tipping point in terms of determining if a player wants to seriously use that Pokemon or not.

To warn new players about this, there could be a NPC in the Grand Hall somewhere that explains it all. Something like, "You can occasionally find Pokemon that wander out of the safety of their natural habitats. They can have any number of reasons for doing this, but I think it's because they have increased confidence in the special moves they're born with, compared to other members of their species. Well, it's just a theory. However, such Pokemon don't appreciate being approached with an offer to join a trainer's party only to be sent to a PC immediately. They want to see that the trainer has enough confidence in them to reserve an empty slot in their party specifically for them."

Edited March 20, 2015 by Alilatias

[roqi]

I agree with the above, people resetting for nature/IVs is another good point in favor of 2B. In official Pokemon games those really hardly matter, but in Reborn I have spent a good few hours total soft-resetting so that Pokemon I plan to use have at the very least double digits in all their IVs. Resetting for shinies is also a thing.

[Lost Lore]

For the first option, I went with A. While grinding a new Pokemon up-to-par with the rest of your team is frustrating, if it's something someone really wants to use, then they will take the time to do so. I'd say it'd be a lot more awkward to have, as per your example, a level 50 Piplup running around- while it reduces the amount of grinding done, it'd be really strange to obtain it at that level, especially if it's being given to us by a person- why would they want to part with it after training it that high?

It's also not a good idea to have them fully evolved, both for the same reason above, and for the hassle of having to breed that Pokemon if you want its previous form(s) registered in your Pokedex.

Second option I went with D- if something I'd be interested in using has egg moves that I'll want, I don't mind finding a PC to box someone just to go get it. And if it doesn't, I can just let it be sent to the PC. Them having egg moves is also stopping one of my pet peeves- having to breed another of something just for egg moves and more than likely box the original whom I've already spent so much time battling with and training. /obligatory joke about being really attached to her pixels

[Personthing]

I say coming at a high level and unevolved would be best. As the game goes on we're less likely to want to pick up a new team member, especially if they are level 5 and our team is well in the 80's or even the 90's. (In future episodes of course) Let's face it, almost no one would use a level 5 Dratini if we got it after Terra. It's really, really time consuming, and in a lot of cases not worth it.

I'm fine with options B, C, and D in regards to egg moves.

[Qaaz]

Just give the Magikarp at level 100 for the lolz

[Deleted User]

Ok I won't be discussing this ad nauseam like some of you but here's how I see it.

1. A - C'mon now, does being given a super pokemon make much sense? Increase the levels a bit perhaps, but they should still need to be trained up and in their base form, for the example of Piplup, would it make sense to have a cute little Piplup given to you at level 50? It's just the only logical decision here.

2. Originally I had C, but -- D - It basically gives the player the option if they want to go to the little bit of extra effort to get cool moves if they want to, which is still less than breeding them onto the mons and THEN training them from level 1. However I do have one little caveat to go along with this, in that if the pokemon being given to us does have these Egg Moves, there absolutely MUST be a prompt on whether or not to accept it at that time. I don't want to talk to someone and then out of the blue they give me a misdreavus when I had no idea it was coming, because now I'm SoL if I did want the option to get these egg moves along with it.

[NickCrash]

1. I answered A. In case you want to use it, you'd better level it up. It's not hard. Since you already have higher level pokemon, all you basically need to do is EV train something, while your new pokemon holds the exp share (so you EV train it as you go). Reaching the 50s is easy this way. Then you go to the Routes and you get a nicely done pokemon. The time period between episodes is when it's the best time to do so. Even if you don't want to wait, you can afford a day or two to grinding. It doesn't go against the Reborn spirit. For example, I trained a Donphan to beat Charlotte back in ep13. (only a few levels but still). You can raise some or most of the event pokemon levels if you have to balance things a bit (like Joltix, Sableye, Gastly and Piplup) but not too much. Having an already evolved pokemon doesn't feel like you've accomplished anything, plus such handouts rarely make sense.

2. Final answer is D. When I know of an event, I usually already have an empty slot in my party (to abuse F12 and get good IVs), so egg moves are a bonus I would gladly accept. If you're doing it for completionist reasons, you do not get the egg moves, still can get the pokemon, and everyone is happy. People will understand as soon as they see that some pokemon have better moves than others. I suggest we implement this only after the first two or three gyms, because having a Whishmur with Boomburst from level one hardly makes sense (Reborn is supposed to be hard, remember?). I'm definite such things are out of the question, but it needs to be said. Also, I do not know which pokemon are better suited for such changes. In my opinion the starters shouldn't. Things like Murkrow getting Brave Bird, or Azurill Aqua Jet should definitely be there.

[CURIE]

Just after I said "why aren't more people picking D", the D option takes the lead by just a small amount. Might I have just altered the course of Reborn history?

[madf0x]

You...you just discovered Ame's secret plot to make us suffer more, why did you do it? R.I.P. man...

But really does this work?

Heres a dirty event a whipped up and tested for a shiny bidoof with a default name, adamant nature, knowing judgment:

Text: Oh wow what a weird Bidoof!

Conditional Branch: Script: $PokemonBag.pbQuantity(PBItems::POKESNAX) > 0

Text: Do you want to give Bidoof some Pokesnax?

Show Choices: Yes, No

When [Yes]

Script: $PokemonBag.pbDeleteItem(

:PBItems::POKESNAX)

Text: .... *CHEW*

Text: ...

Text: Do you want to take Bidoof with you?

Show Choices: Yes, No

When [Yes]

Script: poke=PokeBattle_Pokemon.new(

:Bidoof,10,$TRAINER)

poke.setNature(:ADAMANT)

poke.name="ULTIDOOF"

poke.setAbility(2)

poke.pbLearnMove(:JUDGMENT)

poke.makeShiny()

pbAddPokemon(poke)

When [No]

Text: Bidoof continues being the ultimate pokemon.

Branch End

When [No]

Text: Bidoof continues being the ultimate pokemon.

Branch End

Else

Text: It doesn't seem to notice you.

Branch End

Edited March 20, 2015 by madf0x

[NickCrash]

Just after I said "why aren't more people picking D", the D option takes the lead by just a small amount. Might I have just altered the course of Reborn history?

It would be nice thinking that, but after Huk's wall of text, I doubt people read any answers (at least before they already voted) guilty