Necessarily Awkward Gamestuff

[Deleted User]

The -bigger- problem Reborn suffers from is that it's not grind friendly too often.

- level cap

- themed opposing wilds (ie powder moves, status inflictors, Hidden Power roulette, Adaptability Basculin potential, Cave-in causers)

- centralized re-battle-able trainers.

- lack of experience to be found in places at times.

- blocked exits

Grinding in Reborn is tedious at times because it's not going to be easy all of the time, depending on where you are. It doesn't take very long to grind Pokemon at all in ORAS (grinding a Chesnaught from 1 - 50 in about 35 minutes is possible) due to the grind being favorable. Reborn being less accommodating seems like more of an argument than some players just won't use the Pokemon. The player is allowed to not use said pokemon anyway.

I voted A because it's the most helpful for Dex filling and allows me to see an entire learnset ... It doesn't have to be the rule in every case.

Well when you put it this way. B seems to make the most sense, as it doesn't inhibit dex fillers ability to do so.

[Chase]

"And see the entire learnset"

As in. If its at level 5, I can see what moves the thing learns - in-game - as the Pokemon levels up.

[Deleted User]

"And see the entire learnset"

As in. If its at level 5, I can see what moves the thing learns - in-game - as the Pokemon levels up.

Yeah but if heart scales are more easily obtainable as Amethyst said they'd be, then the moves can just be retaught. The move tutor isn't available until a point where crazy amounts of grinding would be required anyways.

[Gaunt]

This argument works both ways, and it works more in my favor. Why have Pokemon levels lower than 20 when you can breed them at the daycare or use Common Candies to reduce them to whatever arbitrary level you need to "get attached to it?" If your recommendation is for me to suck it up and grind, what stops me from telling you to suck it up and use your L50+ event Pokemon? I'm entirely not convinced by the users who claim that they wouldn't use a Pokemon that appears at too high of a level, because there's substantial evidence that players either don't know or can't articulate what they want

Here we go again...

1) If the argument works both ways how does it work "more in your favor"? You "arbitrary" want high level unevolved event Pokemon (which makes no sense to me and i disagree with it even when it happens in the original games or the anime but anyway) i "arbitrary" want my event Pokemon to be at lower levels, see? It's the same, yours is not "better" it's "different".

2) You can remain "non convinced" all you want but at least try to not call people ignorant just because they disagree with you.

3) In the end the poll will decide who will (quote) "suck it up".

P.S.

You say i can use Common Candies and Heart Scales i say you can grind, see? Equal.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

I voted B at first, but reading the posts made me change my mind, mainly because of the level-up moves/Heart Scale thing. I remember hoping my Eevee evolved into Sylveon before level 39 so I wouldn't have to use a Heart Scale to teach it Moonblast (fortunately, it evolved at 31) so I definitely understand not wanting to use a Heart Scale on a move a Pokemon learns by leveling up.

I erased my vote, but when I try to vote again for A, I get an error that says I have to answer every poll question, even though there's only one question now.

[NickCrash]

In the end Eagleby might be influencing people's vote. Stahp!

[dondon151]

As stated before, receiving lower level pokemon makes no difference as it is quite easy to grind them up. In this way, what you can accomplish is easier EV training and keeping moves you deem important. Given that the source of heart scales is mining and tedious Luvdisk fishing, managing them is a valid point.

I don't understand when someone cites that it's "quite easy to grind [something] up." The problem with grinding is never its difficulty; the problem with grinding is the necessary time commitment. RPGs that require grinding are typically criticized for that aspect - I suspect that the reason for this is that grinding is a time commitment that doesn't test the player's ability to adapt to the challenges presented by the game. It's repetitive, and the reward for grinding is not the same reward for progressing through the game, which is more content.

EV training is not easier at a lower level. EV training is actually easier at a higher level because the Pokemon that you're EV training against have a static level.

Heart Scales are not the only method by which to re-learn moves. I already stated that if it's really a big deal that a player wants to "build attachment" to his low-leveled Pokemon, Common Candies are cheap and buyable en masse. If for some reason you're not happy with a L50 Goomy and would much rather prefer it to be L20 at a point in the game where the average opponent Pokemon level is L60, then by all means, go buy 30 Common Candies, re-learn all your level up moves, and play the game your way. If what I'm proposing sounds ridiculous and irrational, well, that's what you asked for.

Here we go again...

1) If the argument works both ways how does it work "more in your favor"? You "arbitrary" want high level unevolved event Pokemon (which makes no sense to me and i disagree with it even when it happens in the original games or the anime but anyway) i "arbitrary" want my event Pokemon to be at lower levels, see? It's the same, yours is not "better" it's "different".

I already explained why the argument works more in my favor. Do you want me to explain it again? Gather 'round, folks, you're about to get Gaunt special.

Suppose that player A is a player like myself who doesn't like to grind and player B is a player who just can't use a Pokemon unless it starts at L20. Let's take the scenario where the event Pokemon is at a high level.

- Player A is reasonably happy with this. Player A will use the Pokemon (no time commitment) if he wants to.

- Player B is not happy with this. He has several options: he can suck it up and use the Pokemon (no time commitment), use the Pokemon later in the game where it's more of an underdog (no time commitment), buy a bunch of Common Candies (time and money commitment), breed (time commitment), or not use the Pokemon.

Now let's take the scenario where the event Pokemon is at a low level.

- Player A is not happy with this. He has few options: he can suck it up and use the Pokemon (time commitment), or not use the Pokemon.

- Player B is happy with this. Player B will use the Pokemon (time commitment) if he wants to.

It's pretty clear here that the argument works in my favor because even in the case unfavorable to player B, player B has a range of options that allows him to do as he pleases, whereas in the case unfavorable to player A, player A's options are identical to player B's options. The only premise necessary for this comparison to work is that time commitment is a negative. Time commitment is not necessarily a negative, but it usually is in the context of grinding for reasons that I explained in a previous paragraph.

3) In the end the poll will decide who will (quote) "suck it up".

I mean, I'm not so sure that this is the best method. Not everyone's opinions are equally valid, not everyone's opinions are equally informed, and communities are subject to groupthink.

[Personthing]

If you want event Pokemon to be at such a low level that they are unusable without a ton of grinding, common candies are your friend. For a person such as myself who would prefer to keep grinding to a minimum, anything that isn't at a reasonable level after Byxbysion Wasteland is almost certainly going to go unused. (The Partner double battles with Cain at Yureyu are enough to get the Mudkip you find in Byxbsion Wasteland up to speed, but after that there's no point in the game that grinding isn't super time consuming) Event Pokemon should be a reward for exploring, not a chore that you are very likely to ignore in favor of your current team members. Even in Reborn, there are wild NFE Pokemon that are well beyond the level that they would normally evolve (remember the level 50 Ekans on route 1?), so event Pokemon doing this shouldn't be a massive deal. I'm not asking for event Pokemon to be able to trash regular trainers, I'm just asking for event Pokemon to be usable without having to devote 5 hours of my time to leveling it up. Especially since Reborn doesn't exactly have many good places to grind.

P.S.
You say i can use Common Candies and Heart Scales i say you can grind, see? Equal.

Not equal at all. We'd be forced to grind if we want to use a low level event Pokemon. You could choose to use common candies if getting an event Pokemon at such a low level that it's unusable matters to you.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Claydoll]

I mean, I'm not so sure that this is the best method. Not everyone's opinions are equally valid, not everyone's opinions are equally informed, and communities are subject to groupthink.

Since this game itself is quite a niche thing it is safe to assume that the majority of people who play will voice their opinions here or won't even know that something such as this is going on, while communities are subject to become echo-chambers we can see through the comments/opinions and poll results that that's not really the case.

About opinions not being equally valid: that's a pedantic statement if i ever saw one. Sure, not everyone is as informed but people can express their feelings on how the game plays or how things relate to each other and even if they are wrong or uninformed (assuming they do not resort to conflict) about something it can give valuable perspective and help achieve a better compromise for everyone involved.

OT: Glad the egg move issue was resolved. Regarding the first point i still consider the better thing to do is to slightly adjust the levels of some event pokemon and in the case of the piplup, while some people argue that gameplay>story/plot/realism (and it's really true), having believable and relatable events is one of the game's strongest points and options such as making the grind slighly friendlier would be more healthy overall.

[Abyssreaper99]

Heart Scales are not the only method by which to re-learn moves. I already stated that if it's really a big deal that a player wants to "build attachment" to his low-leveled Pokemon, Common Candies are cheap and buyable en masse. If for some reason you're not happy with a L50 Goomy and would much rather prefer it to be L20 at a point in the game where the average opponent Pokemon level is L60, then by all means, go buy 30 Common Candies, re-learn all your level up moves, and play the game your way. If what I'm proposing sounds ridiculous and irrational, well, that's what you asked for.

People would rather spend their money on other things instead of buying a load of common candies. It would take more time than just grinding on its own. All you need is a decent place to grind levels.

I believe I saw you contradicting yourself in a part of that particular post when explaining the high level event pokemon.

There was no need for a particular part of what you've said, I see you want to have your opinions heard and I get that but you shouldn't to be like that just because someone disagrees with what you've said. I totally disagree with opinions being valid or not because they should all be taken into consideration since everyone is equal despite what some think. I also agree with Claydoll with having believable events make the game as good as it is and having options such as making grinding slightly healthier. That's all I'm going to say as it's unnecessary to say anything else.

[Alilatias]

Is everyone ignoring my suggestion to have infinitely re-battleable trainers in certain locations instead?

- It'd completely skip over the awkwardness of receiving un-evolved Pokemon at high levels

- It'd significantly cut down on the grind if players have an underleveled team, allowing them to catch up in levels more quickly (I started a new file and went all the way to the end of the current chapter, and my team was only in the level 65-70 range after I made several team substitutions over the last few chapters - which means if you're someone that is just playing through the story, the game feels as if it's punishing you for making any changes to your roster).

- People would still have the satisfaction of raising the Pokemon themselves

- And it'd solve the bigger yet very overlooked issue: Pokemon obtained earlier in the game generally won't be looked at ever again because of their low levels/perceived lower tier status.

Reborn's supposed to promote diversity and outside of the box thinking, but the grind in the last few chapters is putting a huge strain on that. It's to the point where people can only justify raising lower leveled Pokemon if they're known to be of a higher tier/are generally more popular, like Abra (not to mention the discussion of upcoming Sneasel in this thread already). Once you get such Pokemon, why would anyone go through the effort to grind up an earlier game Pokemon like Vivillion based only on curiosity?

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

I like the idea of infinite rematch trainers too. There's the Grand Hall trainers, but that's only once a day so you have to keep changing the PC date. And once you've battled them on a certain day, you can't go back and battle them again. Ex: If you battle them on January 6 then later go back to that same day, they won't battle you. I have to keep a note on my phone as a reminder of when to set my PC to when I need to battle them again to gain levels.

[madf0x]

I think the rebattle trainer idea just got buried not necessarily ignored. It is a good idea, I really liked that Rejuvenation had them and there was several times I used them for quick grinding up low leveled pokemon I wanted to use. It didnt make the challenges easier, it just saved time. Wouldnt completely solve the grinding issue dondon presents but I think itd be a fair compromise.

[Sheep]

Not everyone's opinions are equally valid

That's why they're called opinions. Though if you're trying to imply that not everyone's opinion is equally valuable you're plain wrong. Here at Reborn we value equality, so any particular person's vote is as important as anyone else's regardless of whether or not they choose to justify it.

[Commander]

Okay, I think the majority has agreed upon that grinding is the bigger issue, not the levels so they don't really need to be touched. I did look through the ideas and I really like the rebattable trainers idea. I'd probably say the best place to incorporate them in would be either after Aya or Serra because that's when the level gap starts to get really noticeable and I don't want to completely rid of wild pokemon grinding (maybe they could be really underleveled kind of like B/W2). Honestly, I'd be happy even for them to always be available but scale up after each badge.

The only problem I see with this is money, but that is an easy fix. I don't think they should really give out the same amount of money as they do because you would easily be able to grind to the cap and have around 100,000 by the second gym, which kind of contradicts how the game originally was played during those first few gyms.

[Yazmat]

I personally would like to have higher leveld Pokemon and infinitely rebaatleable trainers. Especially after Radomus and Route 2

[Odybld]

Other than the rebattlable trainers, as someone said before, we just could get the Exp Share and the Lucky Egg earlier. Say, the Happiny in the Coral Ward could have the Lucky Egg on it. Or if it's too early, the Happiny could go together with Ditto in the Blackstream Factory. Or, if that's too early as well, the Happiny and the Lucky Egg could go in 7th Street instead of the Exp Share.

There could be a new event for the Exp Share either in Lapis (where someone may have trouble staying under the cap, for these story reasons) or in Apophyll (since the cap takes a while to jump from there as well). I also like the Exp Share as a brace to overleveling without having to use Common Candy.

[madf0x]

The money issue should be a fix. Change the reward money or if thats not easy just charge the player a small amount to battle the trainer, but not too much though or itd be a bit too counterproductive.

[Sonikku]

Option A~

Having to raise a low leveled pokemon can be beneficial at times. Like if you want to ev train it, which can be easier. Ev grinding can level up high level members, which means you'll have to buy common candy. It's also pretty god damn funny when you are this deep in the game and you encounter a Lv.1 Beldum. Also nostalgia c:

[Chase]

I fail to see why someone would argue about time commitment here. The player's hand is generally nudged by the game to make certain decisions like using Pokemon that wouldn't normally see the light of day from the beginning. If you think your Semipour is more attractive than an untrained Piplup, you can always stick with Semipour. That would play in the games hand.

If people -want- to use a specific pokemon. People -will- devote the needed time to grind it up.

[Sonikku]

Also am I the only one who can't vote? ^^;

[Felicity]

I'm more inclined to B (Even though for some reason the poll wants me to vote on another question which doesn't exist)

There's the argument that high-leveled babies aren't a logical thing. In some cases, it's true. A high-leveled Magby/Elekid is ridiculous, they are literally babies. In the games context, the only possible reason they would be high-leveled is because the Magby/Elekid were used to infinitely power an appliance.

However, there's several instances of trainers having NFE pokemon to answer the question of "Who has been ramming everstones down the mons throat?" The first that comes to mind is the goomy one can find on route 2 with the clown, or the Bagon another trainer uses on the route (I think). In the very game we are discussing, not just the anime or poke-universe in general, there are examples of NFE mons at a high level.

Furthermore, as Dondon has explained, it is more beneficial for more people to have those higher-leveled pokemon because it is quite possible for a player who likes grinding to experience that without stripping other grind-hating players of a choice. Some people have argued that they bond via working with their pokemon. I'mma give you an exmple of how I bonded with a pokemon without grinding.

Bunnelby before Coreys Gym. I caught that quickly, made sure it had Huge power and used it to fight the nearest trainers which got it to be just under-leveled. The rabbit put in work against ZEL and I immediately fell in love with it. Note: I did not grind with it. it was a very recent pick up and yet I liked and felt as close to it as I did my typhlosion, because it pulled through, it was a useful memeber of my party that did his job at a crucial moment. Grinding isn't the only way to get attached to a mon. Therefore, it can only be considered an argument in specific cases. For the argument that if someone -wants- to use a mon, why make it difficult for them? You're still effectively punishing someone for wanting to use something. Grinding doesn't have to be the cost of using it. When considering how large an audience this game has, why not tick all the boxes and give everyone the possibility of using mon rather than just tick a few boxes and subsequently punish the rest of the audience?

As for egg moves, I honestly don't know. I think it'd make more mons usable because some just aren't viable even at a decent level.

[dondon151]

I fail to see why someone would argue about time commitment here.

Because time commitment is a real problem for real players? Have you ever thought about why players, game reviewers, etc. look unfavorably on games that require grinding? It breaks the natural pace of the game, it requires time to execute that doesn't reveal any new game content, it's a repetitive activity, and so on. From the perspective of the game developer, it should be the player's last resort, because it's almost always an effective strategy that minimizes the amount of thought invested in strategizing.

I'm not even going to pull the life card here and say that players have better things to do with their time than to grind; even if that were true, that's hardly a point that I need to mention.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151

[NickCrash]

I don't understand when someone cites that it's "quite easy to grind [something] up." The problem with grinding is never its difficulty; the problem with grinding is the necessary time commitment. RPGs that require grinding are typically criticized for that aspect - I suspect that the reason for this is that grinding is a time commitment that doesn't test the player's ability to adapt to the challenges presented by the game. It's repetitive, and the reward for grinding is not the same reward for progressing through the game, which is more content.

EV training is not easier at a lower level. EV training is actually easier at a higher level because the Pokemon that you're EV training against have a static level.

-.-

If it is confusing, let me re-phraze it. When you receive an event (or catch a wild pokemon), which you want to use, 9/10 cases you will grind it. It is easy to bring it up to the level you want, because there are many places of scaling levels (aka for some, difficulty). Easy in terms of time as well, as you can use the exp. share.

If you read my comments, you'll see mentions of its use on early event pokemon leveled up till the 50s, by the use of the exp share and parallel grind of a higher-leveled pokemon. This is a way to do EV training at the same time.

Now that we're all at the same page, we can discuss about this:

Heart Scales are not the only method by which to re-learn moves. Common Candies are cheap and buyable en masse. If for some reason you're not happy with a L50 Goomy and would much rather prefer it to be L20 at a point in the game where the average opponent Pokemon level is L60, then by all means, go buy 30 Common Candies, re-learn all your level up moves, and play the game your way. If what I'm proposing sounds ridiculous and irrational, well, that's what you asked for.

What I asked for was to put the event pokemon at an approximate level as the wild ones, only some levels lower, because they tend to be better and as such, can't be put on the same page as everything else in the area. I believe this is easy to understand and not nitpick on the specific words used. What you propose is indeed ridiculous, and I don't remember having suggested it. Nobody does, as it bears no reason to be done.

Now do you really want to start a debate on which opinions are more "valid" than the others? When one addresses the value of somebody else's opinion, one should sit back and evaluate their's first.

[Chase]

Its not forced though. You dont have to use the Pokemon. If you -want- to use the pokemon, grinding isnt a question. Its just something you do.