CURIE Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You can change your vote, though. Or rather, delete your vote and do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspectoflife Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Just give the Magikarp at level 100 for the lolz Jokes on you, i have 30 commom candies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prankster Meowstic Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Keep them low level, give the player the xp share earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kithros Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) For the first one I'd go with B - realism is nice and all, but I feel like the gameplay has to be prioritized over realism (and besides, there are unevolved wild pokemon in level 60+ areas as it is - if you want to apply that logic that they should be evoled then you should also be applying taht logic to wild pokemon, otherwise you could just explain it by saying that the level 50 piplup was caught in a level 50 area instead of being trained to level 50). For the second one I'm a little bit torn - I can say that personally having been informed about it I would probably like D) the most, however, I also think that for the game as a whole that A) will probably be better for the game. I can't claim to know any statistics about it for this game in particular - but typically in games only a very small minority of players actually read the forums etc., and to the people on the forums who don't really understand the game mechanics of this game it would come across as really silly and sloppy game design. These kinds of things might seem really small, but it amounts to a lot more than you'd think - one of the things I think I've learned about game design is that if you're thinking about implementing a feature to a game, that it either has to be done right or not done at all, and these really counterintuitive mechanics aren't really good for the game. On its own it might not have that much of an impact to the game, but many small mistakes like these makes the game look really sloppy and new players or people considering playing the game can often be put off of a game by silly things like these, so I'll kind of grudgingly have to vote for A). Edited March 21, 2015 by Kithros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) B/B I think you have to look at the first question by guessing what a type of player would do in each circumstance. If you give an event Pokemon unevolved at a low level: - Grind-happy player will use it - Grind-intolerant player won't use it If you give an event Pokemon at a high level (unevolved or evolved, doesn't matter): - Grind-happy player will use it - Grind-intolerant player will use it So really, in the case of B, both types of player win. I doubt any player will be upset that his event Pokemon is not at a low level; it's not going to stop a grind-happy person from using that Pokemon or playing Reborn in the first place. By choosing option A, you are only hurting players like me who do not like to grind. If there's a strong disincentive to use this event Pokemon, then I'm just going to keep on trucking with my Blaziken, or whatever, which means that option A doesn't encourage team diversity as much as options B or C. EDIT: Also, there's nothing "illogical" about having a high-leveled Pokemon in its base or NFE form. Gamefreak does this with in-game trainers all the time. Eagun has a L50 Pikachu in the Orre series games, for example. For the second question, D just seems awkward. Are the egg moves supposed to be easter eggs? Wouldn't this be unfair to players who don't know that receiving a Pokemon in party is different than sending it to the PC? How does it make sense, anyway, that whether a received Pokemon is sent to the PC determines its knowledge of egg moves? Isn't it almost strictly better for a Pokemon to come with egg moves than to not come with egg moves? This isn't a mechanic that exists in the main series games, either. Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madf0x Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 For the second question, D just seems awkward. Are the egg moves supposed to be easter eggs? Wouldn't this be unfair to players who don't know that receiving a Pokemon in party is different than sending it to the PC? How does it make sense, anyway, that whether a received Pokemon is sent to the PC determines its knowledge of egg moves? Isn't it almost strictly better for a Pokemon to come with egg moves than to not come with egg moves? This isn't a mechanic that exists in the main series games, either. Especially since its entirely possible to not require the wonky open space to add egg moves as Ive proven above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Amethyst Posted March 21, 2015 Author Administrators Share Posted March 21, 2015 Heres a dirty event a whipped up and tested for a shiny bidoof with a default name, adamant nature, knowing judgment: Text: Oh wow what a weird Bidoof! Conditional Branch: Script: $PokemonBag.pbQuantity(PBItems::POKESNAX) > 0 Text: Do you want to give Bidoof some Pokesnax? Show Choices: Yes, No When [Yes] Script: $PokemonBag.pbDeleteItem( :PBItems::POKESNAX) Text: .... *CHEW* Text: ... Text: Do you want to take Bidoof with you? Show Choices: Yes, No When [Yes] Script: poke=PokeBattle_Pokemon.new( :Bidoof,10,$TRAINER) poke.setNature(:ADAMANT) poke.name="ULTIDOOF" poke.setAbility(2) poke.pbLearnMove(:JUDGMENT) poke.makeShiny() pbAddPokemon(poke) When [No] Text: Bidoof continues being the ultimate pokemon. Branch End When [No] Text: Bidoof continues being the ultimate pokemon. Branch End Else Text: It doesn't seem to notice you. Branch End Interesting. This does work. Thanks. I'm not entirely sure why I had been lead to believe this was not an option (improper documentation in the past? maybe this became workable with a recent version? maybe i'm super bad? who knows) but this makes my life a lot easier, and invalidates half of this thread. Editing the OP/Poll accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I may be weird in this, but I'm not going to use a Pokemon I didn't raise myself. If I find a Piplup at level 50, Ima toss it in the box because it won't feel like my Piplup. And if it's already evolved I'm even less likely to use it I need to be attached to my partners to be comfortable making them throw themselves repeatedly at my foes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I'll need to reread and change my vote for this one again or something. I haven't felt very comfortable with it. I feel like if a player wants egg moves they should -always- have to breed for them (or encounter dexnav Pokemon in ORAS) due to them being somethings players -can- control. That being said, I'm not opposed to freebies, but I feel like that is an unneeded slight on potential gameplay time and potential effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunt Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 B/B I think you have to look at the first question by guessing what a type of player would do in each circumstance. If you give an event Pokemon unevolved at a low level: - Grind-happy player will use it - Grind-intolerant player won't use it If you give an event Pokemon at a high level (unevolved or evolved, doesn't matter): - Grind-happy player will NOT use it - Grind-intolerant player will use it Corrected that for you, on which basis you assume that players who like to grind will like raising an event Pokemon 1-2 levels (to evolve it) and then slap it on the team? I (for one) would not also all those EV lost would make them (initially) weaker than my original ones. So it's a lose-lose situation not a win-win one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I still would have preferred my questions from earlier be answered but seeing as this has turned into a one part poll it's not really going to have any impact on my vote anymore so I may as well cast one. A 'cause I feel finding high leveled pre-evos just wandering around pretty unrealistic, and no amount of examples where it's actually happened is going to sway that. Examples of high leveled pre-evos doesn't make it any more realistic, they just prove that it's happened before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Corrected that for you, on which basis you assume that players who like to grind will like raising an event Pokemon 1-2 levels (to evolve it) and then slap it on the team? I (for one) would not also all those EV lost would make them (initially) weaker than my original ones. So it's a lose-lose situation not a win-win one You can still EV train a higher-leveled Pokemon the same exact way that you'd EV train a lower-leveled Pokemon. A 'cause I feel finding high leveled pre-evos just wandering around pretty unrealistic, and no amount of examples where it's actually happened is going to sway that. Examples of high leveled pre-evos doesn't make it any more realistic, they just prove that it's happened before. This makes no sense at all. Suppose that in every main series game thus far, there have been abundant high-leveled NFE Pokemon in the wild (and this is actually somewhat true). This is copious evidence to support the claim that high-leveled NFE Pokemon naturally occur in the wild! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madf0x Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I still would have preferred my questions from earlier be answered but seeing as this has turned into a one part poll it's not really going to have any impact on my vote anymore so I may as well cast one. A 'cause I feel finding high leveled pre-evos just wandering around pretty unrealistic, and no amount of examples where it's actually happened is going to sway that. Examples of high leveled pre-evos doesn't make it any more realistic, they just prove that it's happened before. There is also precedent in the anime, as evolution often reflects a change in maturity and many pokemon simply refuse to evolve for various reasons. Also, evolution isn't always tied to the methods in game and sometimes pokemon evolve mid battle just to get a desperate boost of power. You are free to not like it, but it is very much realistic. Interesting. This does work. Thanks. I'm not entirely sure why I had been lead to believe this was not an option (improper documentation in the past? maybe this became workable with a recent version? maybe i'm super bad? who knows) but this makes my life a lot easier, and invalidates half of this thread. Editing the OP/Poll accordingly. Not sure, I just remembered it from while I was exploring more about essentials. My test script though is a bit incomplete (gives ???? listed as OT and what not) but it wouldn't take much to make it more robust, I just wanted it to be quick enough to show it can be done and that there were even other stuff that could be changed for potentially interesting events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Let's not throw random stuff around about realism and not and kind of think about Reborn as a whole. A lot of the trainers are supposed to be tough so for them to be giving away high level Pokemon "freely" would be a little extreeme to downright stupid (it could work in some cases though). Let's take the Piplup event for example. The trainer gives you it for a "Rare Candy" basically showing he didn't care for it and really raise it. Would it really make sense for it to be 3-6 level under your Pokemon then? I certainly hope not. Another thing is that it feels better when you have to spend more time grinding up a Pokemon compared to it being usable in ten minutes. Please don't throw time into this matter as many of the leaders can be taken down with Pokemon available before even Julia. Spending that extra little time though raising a better Pokemon does make the game easier in the long run rewarding players who do grind. As I said earlier, I feel very tedious grinding at a couple points is the bigger problem than the Pokemon level as that's half the reason I skipped over many Pokemon I considered using. I do have one last point to make: raising the levels that much would be greatly punishing Pokedex completionists. After going through Kanto to Mid-Unova the Pokemon being able to level up a few levels after koing a Pokemon or two feels a lot faster than having to KO 15-20 Pokemon to level it up a single level (Fossils felt like they took forever those last two levels). Spiking all those Pokemon up levels would make an already tedious process feel even more tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roqi Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hurrah for solutions, hurrah for madf0x! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madf0x Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hurrah for solutions, hurrah for madf0x! Hell yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yash Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Yeah foxy!! You're Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 What many users seem to not understand when they post in this thread is that their vision or idea for Reborn doesn't translate to how people behave in practice. You can say that it's "supposed" to be hard, it's "supposed" to encourage the player to grind out a usable team, and the player is "supposed" to feel great after grinding his Pokemon from a low level. The problem is that it's impossible to force the player to feel or play the game this way simply because of how the Pokemon engine works, so in practice, players don't have to conform to these visions. Like I said before, I can circumvent these goals simply by continuing to use the Pokemon that I've been using prior to the 4th gym or so. So by setting event Pokemon levels to egregiously low levels, not only have the users failed to get me to conform to their goals, but they've also deterred me from using the event Pokemon at all. This is an instance where the intended consequence doesn't occur and a negative unintended consequence occurs instead. I suspect that some of the users who claim that they won't use an event Pokemon because it's at too high of a level aren't being completely honest. That is a really easy statement to make because it's nearly impossible to verify. If your favorite Pokemon is in the Goomy line and the game had a L50 event Goomy, chances are, you're not going to pass on it because its level is too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssreaper99 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 What many users seem to not understand when they post in this thread is that their vision or idea for Reborn doesn't translate to how people behave in practice. You can say that it's "supposed" to be hard, it's "supposed" to encourage the player to grind out a usable team, and the player is "supposed" to feel great after grinding his Pokemon from a low level. The problem is that it's impossible to force the player to feel or play the game this way simply because of how the Pokemon engine works, so in practice, players don't have to conform to these visions. Like I said before, I can circumvent these goals simply by continuing to use the Pokemon that I've been using prior to the 4th gym or so. So by setting event Pokemon levels to egregiously low levels, not only have the users failed to get me to conform to their goals, but they've also deterred me from using the event Pokemon at all. This is an instance where the intended consequence doesn't occur and a negative unintended consequence occurs instead. I suspect that some of the users who claim that they won't use an event Pokemon because it's at too high of a level aren't being completely honest. That is a really easy statement to make because it's nearly impossible to verify. If your favorite Pokemon is in the Goomy line and the game had a L50 event Goomy, chances are, you're not going to pass on it because its level is too high. That's your choice in choosing continuously using the pokemon from that point in the game but some people like to raise their own pokemon so they can choose the moves they want on the pokemon without having to spend as many heart scales on them so that they can use them on egg moves or to prevent the need to breed unless they want to. The only time you see level 50 event pokemon in the main series is when they're distributed via wi-fi. Reborn is definitely designed to have some sort of difficulty that the main games don't provide. Sure grinding can be a bit tedious at times but that's a part of the challenge. Why have pokemon levels at 50+ when you can just grind daily at the Grand Hall? The levels of the trainers pokemon will increase as soon as we return to the city anyway and the exp share is available so you can still train easily to an extent then use them as sole training for one particular pokemon when it's strong enough. As many have said earlier, this grinding develops an attachment to your pokemon in a way similar to when you're doing a nuzlocke on a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunt Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 What many users seem to not understand when they post in this thread is that their vision or idea for Reborn doesn't translate to how SOME people behave in practice. Again, corrected it for you, please don't automatically assume that your point of view on the matter is valid for the majority of players (who care enough to actually participate in the discussion) because (there is the poll to demonstrate this fact) it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 If I remember correctly, the only pokemon we receive at a level higher than 50 is Absol, and that doesn't evolve. Naturally the event pokemon we receive at high levels, which do not have the egg moves we would like, are going to be bred or put in the pc. This can be solved as stated before. Sticking with the Absol example, one could instantly begin grinding and raising it to levels where it suffices to beat the current opponent. The same occured with the Heatmor event in Pyrrhus Pyrrhon the fire mountain in Apophyll. In general, the event pokemon are in good levels to receive, and as stated before, raising their levels is easy at any point in the game, as there are given methods you can use, no matter how much you've proceeded. The same occurs for EV training as well. The issue on the usage of event pokemon resides on Reborn's difficulty levels. Certain monsters are more capable of dealing with specific threats, and a bit of scouting verifies that assumption. Hence, event pokemon received at an earlier level, sometimes a tad lower than the user's party, are to be used in order to overcome the current obstacle. The game is against giving you the chore of going back to grind with rediculously low level pokemon as your opponents and take this procedure to last ages, by having a scale. Each new area has higher threats to deal with, and as such, better spots for level-ups. In the end, all that matters whether a pokemon is used or not are two factors: a. How fond the player is to the pokemon. This is the less verifiable of the two, not due to dishonesty, but due to the range it has, as evidenced by the numerous threads on "the worst", "the best you didn't know you had" etc. This is solved by having the event pokemon at a proper level, which is neither too low, nor too high. b. How good the pokemon is in general. Giving away OU threats that perform well in-game without the reliance on TMs or breeding-chains is both encouraged, as they also belong to the previous category and actually help the player perform better against the increasing difficulty, and also skeptical, in the essence that it should not be immediately ready to dish out huge amounts of damage. Example gratia, receiving the Beldum at 1lvl is perfect, because it urges you to work for your prize and raise it up if you want to use it. Something similar is supposed to happen with the Marill line if I am not mistaken, and I am perfectly fine with it. Moving along with this train of thought, if Goomy was to be given as an event, it would not matter if it was handed away at a higher level, or had a similar case with Beldum. Find it, catch it, raise it, use it. Not too time-consuming, but it still needs effort. Therefore, taking the way pokemon games work in general under consideration, receiving a bit higher leveled pokemon depends on the pokemon itself and makes little sense for the best of them to be overpowered from stage one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I suspect that some of the users who claim that they won't use an event Pokemon because it's at too high of a level aren't being completely honest. That is a really easy statement to make because it's nearly impossible to verify. If your favorite Pokemon is in the Goomy line and the game had a L50 event Goomy, chances are, you're not going to pass on it because its level is too high. I love Weavile, but if you're handing it to me at level 50 I'm just not gonna bother. At best I'll breed it for a brand new Sneasel to raise up on my own, but even then I would just be power leveling and not really training it and getting attached to it. I'm much more likely to hang onto the Mightyena I caught back at level 4 I don't really treat my Pokemon like pawns to help me win the game. They're my partners and I'm not going to just junk one of them in favor of a random Pokemon I just got handed to me and won't get the chance to watch grow, even if it is my favorite But again, I'm probably a bit weird with that so I wouldn't take me as a standard Also I abhor grinding, I'm the type of person who just throws herself at a gym leader repeatedly until she wins, rather than run in circles for hours on end one-shotting Electrike Stupid Watson, why you gotta be so stronk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sure grinding can be a bit tedious at times but that's a part of the challenge. Why have pokemon levels at 50+ when you can just grind daily at the Grand Hall? The levels of the trainers pokemon will increase as soon as we return to the city anyway and the exp share is available so you can still train easily to an extent then use them as sole training for one particular pokemon when it's strong enough. As many have said earlier, this grinding develops an attachment to your pokemon in a way similar to when you're doing a nuzlocke on a game. This argument works both ways, and it works more in my favor. Why have Pokemon levels lower than 20 when you can breed them at the daycare or use Common Candies to reduce them to whatever arbitrary level you need to "get attached to it?" If your recommendation is for me to suck it up and grind, what stops me from telling you to suck it up and use your L50+ event Pokemon? It's easier to use a Pokemon than it is to grind a Pokemon (I shouldn't have to explain why; this seems incredibly obvious). An event Pokemon that comes at a high level still isn't suited for immediate use on a team. Enemy trainers are going to have Pokemon in the L70+ range soon, so even a L50 event Pokemon would still require copious amounts of grinding to reach a usable state. I'm entirely not convinced by the users who claim that they wouldn't use a Pokemon that appears at too high of a level, because there's substantial evidence that players either don't know or can't articulate what they want - look at the best Pokemon you didn't know you had thread for examples. There is no opportunity to discover a surprisingly useful Pokemon later in the game if all of the obtainable Pokemon at that point are at too low of a level to perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickCrash Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 As stated before, receiving lower level pokemon makes no difference as it is quite easy to grind them up. In this way, what you can accomplish is easier EV training and keeping moves you deem important. Given that the source of heart scales is mining and tedious Luvdisk fishing, managing them is a valid point. What works for all parties is having most event pokemon at a good level, regarding the process of the game (eg 15-20 lvls lower than the next Gym). Keep the best ones at really low levels to keep the balance. Weavile is probably going to fall under the 2nd category. When receiving Sneasel, I expect it to be around lvl 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The -bigger- problem Reborn suffers from is that it's not grind friendly too often. - level cap - themed opposing wilds (ie powder moves, status inflictors, Hidden Power roulette, Adaptability Basculin potential, Cave-in causers) - centralized re-battle-able trainers. - lack of experience to be found in places at times. - blocked exits Grinding in Reborn is tedious at times because it's not going to be easy all of the time, depending on where you are. It doesn't take very long to grind Pokemon at all in ORAS (grinding a Chesnaught from 1 - 50 in about 35 minutes is possible) due to the grind being favorable. Reborn being less accommodating seems like more of an argument than some players just won't use the Pokemon. The player is allowed to not use said pokemon anyway. I voted A because it's the most helpful for Dex filling and allows me to see an entire learnset ... It doesn't have to be the rule in every case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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