Necessarily Awkward Gamestuff

[Gaunt]

Uhh wut. Yeah you can make an argument for everyones opinion counts but saying that his claim that an opinion is only valid if its backed by rhetoric is a biased perspective is well faulty rhetoric.

Second part: just no, you have a warped sense of what the word forced means. The stance hes taking, right or wrong, is that for a low level even pokemon to be viable he is forced to grind it up. Alternatively if it was already higher up itd be viable, and if you choose to have it low leveled you have options to do so. Its an argument of viability versus choice.

Uhh..wut? He says that his opinion (and others who agree with him) is more valid than ours, how is that not biased?

second part: my sense of the word/meaning of "forced" is my own yours is (of course) different, i don't want to use Common Candies or breed to use my Pokemon i want to raise (grind) them myself from the beginning and it's my choice to do so now, if your method is applied i would not be able to do it. Also (applying your logic) he has a choice he can use Rare Candies and not grind at all (sure the money would be a problem but it's a choice)

[dondon151]

Uhh..wut? He says that his opinion (and others who agree with him) is more valid than ours, how is that not biased?

Someone who agrees with me for entirely different, less rigorous reasons would not have as valid of an opinion.

[madf0x]

No he didnt say that. He said that peoples opinions backed by rhetoric is more valid than those that dont. Shouldn't be putting words into other peoples mouth.

You can't just use your own meaning, thats not how definitions are used. Especially if youre taking the position of arguing with semantics. The argument is a matter or validity versus choice. You arent going to be convincing anyone arguing only one half of the issue. Also don't believe I ever said that I was agreeing with them.

Just gunna say how I love that this topic turned into a heated debate over levels. Pretty sure at this point Amethyst has gathered plenty of enough different viewpoints to make her decision.

[Amethyst]

See, this is the kind of stuff I'm going for:

Some people have argued that they bond via working with their pokemon. I'mma give you an exmple of how I bonded with a pokemon without grinding.
Bunnelby before Coreys Gym. I caught that quickly, made sure it had Huge power and used it to fight the nearest trainers which got it to be just under-leveled. The rabbit put in work against ZEL and I immediately fell in love with it. Note: I did not grind with it. it was a very recent pick up and yet I liked and felt as close to it as I did my typhlosion, because it pulled through, it was a useful memeber of my party that did his job at a crucial moment. Grinding isn't the only way to get attached to a mon.

I'd much rather players find strong partners in this sort of way rather than them picking a Pokemon they know they already like (and have probably used 842 times before) and spending two hours grinding it up.

Another goal of the game -is- to promote diversity, and Dobby's anecdote is an ideal case. Now the problem with our events-- and yes, even some wilds, which will also change-- is that in order for them to even be eligible to create this sort of scenario, they gotta be grinded up.

In short, the current level of the events creates a scenario where two of the game's goals are in direct opposition to each other.

I'm a little floored that A has been such the overwhelmingly popular option though. I only included it on the poll as a status-quo formality-- I expected a few people to pick it, but honestly I didn't think there would be any contest as to whether they should come at a low or high level; it was mostly to ask if they should be evolved or not. Now, just comparing B and C alone, I have an answer to that.

But, with twice as many votes on A, I do want to discuss what exactly about grinding it is that players like. I am not very willing to change the goal of reducing grinding, basically because, as said by dondon,

From the perspective of the game developer, it should be the player's last resort, because it's almost always an effective strategy that minimizes the amount of thought invested in strategizing.

not to mention, it's boring as shit.

So, let me review this thread and summarize what I understand to be the observed benefits of grinding:

• Gets all the dex entries
• Rewards hard work
• Feeling of raising a 'baby'
• Gets moves without heart scales
• EV Training along the way
• Adds gameplay time
• Worth it if the player likes the Pokemon
• Creates a bond

My thoughts on each:

• Gets all the dex entries: Solved if we go Option B with our poll question
• Rewards hard work: I don't agree that grinding is 'hard work' so much as it is tedious work. To reward tedium is to encourage tedium, which is inconsistent with our goal.
• Feeling of raising a 'baby': This feeling is better-fulfilled and better-rewarded by breeding the Pokemon in question, on which increasing its level will not have a meaningful impact.
• Gets moves without heart scales: Fair, but I would much sooner increase the availability of heart scales instead (the Luvdisc rate has already been set back to 50% for E15), rather than create events that encourage or necessitate grinding. I believe that searching for those for half an hour is more entertaining than slaughtering Unown for two hours.
• EV Training along the way: Another valid point, although EV training is also in itself tedious (something Gamefreak acknowledged with the introduction of Super Training). Our ability to create such minigames for that is limited, but I'm interested in exploring alternatives to this to help sort out EVs on Pokemon that have run through the story, such as making EV-reducing items readily available at a certain point. Ideally any Pokemon should be able to be EV trained on-the-go.
• Adds gameplay time: with no added gameplay. Time spent is worthless if it's not interesting (looking at you, Bravely Default). I would much rather players spend 20 hours on a game and have a blast every minute of it, than have players spend 120 hours on a game and large parts of that time be a grindfest.
• Worth it if the player likes the Pokemon: This is not a benefit to grinding so much as a common echo in defense of it that I want to address. Per the aforementioned goal of increasing diversity, we're trying to encourage players to use Pokemon they might not normally want. So while raising Scraggy is totally worth it to the numerous Scrafty fans, other players won't see the twenty levels they need to raise it as being worth their time. On the contrary if they have happen to have a Scraggy that could be Shade-ready with just a few levels and some TLC, it requires much less of an investment on their part to at least give the poor thing a try so that they might decide 'hey, this is pretty boss, let's keep using it'.
• Creates a bond: I'll refer back to Dobby's anecdote and similar cases as the ideal version of this. Similarly I question if this 'bond' is a result of the Pokemon's capabilities, or a result of the fact that the player has already committed to putting so much time into raising the Pokemon in question that they feel like not-doing-so would be a waste.

So in short I accept that given the current set-up being able to set moves and EVs along the way of the grind -is- a boon, but those are both elements that can be improved within the content of the game itself, and I intend to do so. Do others disagree with my points on this, or are there other benefits to grinding that we would be losing by setting event levels higher?

[Gaunt]

Crushed and defeated i am the creator has spoken and decided, i will not argue anymore (even if i'm still against it) and just "suck it up" in the end my greatest hope "The Poll" was meaningless...

[Claydoll]

So in short I accept that given the current set-up being able to set moves and EVs along the way of the grind -is- a boon, but those are both elements that can be improved within the content of the game itself, and I intend to do so. Do others disagree with my points on this, or are there other benefits to grinding that we would be losing by setting event levels higher?

None particularly, it will always exist as a concept and it is inevitable to do some catchup leveling at some point so most of those things will remain at some degree. As long as nothing too absurd or out of place comes across, which would be hard too do, unless it's on purpose obviously.

I would only argue that the added play time spend grinding can be cathartic/relaxing occasionally since "having a blast every minute" of the game could sometimes make the experience lack build up (hype) and other nonsense, but that's totally in the way i perceive it and is not relevant enough to make a case for.

Crushed and defeated i am the creator has spoken and decided, i will not argue anymore (even if i'm still against it) and just "suck it up" in the end my greatest hope "The Poll" was meaningless...

Haha, a bit too dramatic, it still served a purpose.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Claydoll

[Commander]

I come from an ideal in order to nice or better things, you should have to work hard for it. Pretty much I've adapted to long term grinding sessions which is why I was a bit influenced by the first choice. I did say grinding was an issue, but if raising the Pokemon levels up to stop long sessions of grinding is the best solution, I'm certainly not against it. Preferably, I wouldn't want a Piplup to be at Lv 50, but certainly would be better than having it start at Lv 15 (heck Electrike is a higher level when you first catch it and that's before the first gym). My ideal range would be 30-45 so that you have a bit of a buffer for some EVs (I don't EV train but EVs really do help). I'm not too picky though.

I guess one of my big concerns was resolved by Heart Scales being common. I hate to ask this of you, but would it be a little too extreme if we had a heart scale vendor during that Agate portion of the game (Unless Luvdisc is available there then Crisis averted). I always was afraid to use heart scales because of how few were available outside of mining if you didn't Itemfinder spam.

As for the bond thing, the grinding part isn't necessarily what creates the bond. That bond can be created even within five minutes of a gym fight. I'll use my Emolga for example. She really saved me on the Shelly fight, but that Shade fight was where she I grew fond of her. Basically all my Pokemon kept getting KO'd so eventually there was a point where Shade had five Pokemon (this was back when he had a Dusclops too). I don't know how I did it, but I beat him with an Emolga which pretty much made me want to keep using her for as long as possible (right now I'm at Luna on the save). The thing was: I just used it to replace Pachirusu until a better Electric type came along. I probably would've just tossed her into the box and never use her if she was like Level 5 or something though.

[aspectoflife]

no grinding kreygasm, and i'm all up for using multiple pokemon due to the increased level when getting them, makes me feel like a good trainer which uses the right pokemon at the right time unlike ash.

i also agree with bonding part, i bonded with my krikecktune because it was hella strong and prety clutch during the early game, every time i open my box i smile when i look at that 384 bst monster

[Felicity]

I suppose the one other benefit I can see to grinding is tha it's kinda Zen for some people. I can't say I enjoy it in pokemon but in a few other games which are more fluid (Kingdom hearts) grinding an be quite relaxing. I'm especially partial to listen to a podcast or music whilst grinding in a game. How applicable this is to Reborn though needs an assessment of the gameplay because as stated prior, grinding isn't really accommodating in reborn or pokemon in general imo.

[Chase]

Id rather grind than be forced to use scales. Im a little shocked that A voters turned tail because the game developer answered your concerns.

If you have a change of heart. Change your vote. If not, Ame isn't going to kill you if you challenge her.

[Amethyst]

Seconding the above. I am -actually- looking for the refutation to my previous points and reasoning behind the popularity of the A choice because like I said I'm very surprised that so many people would be attached to grinding, and I do want to know why.

Hilda says she'd rather grind than use scales; even if they become more common, would others agree? I don't, because they're already not a limited resource and nothing is gained by not using them. The change from grinding > scales seems to just save players a lot of time via a more interesting alternative. But my opinion is not the end-all here.

[Gaunt]

Id rather grind than be forced to use scales. Im a little shocked that A voters turned tail because the game developer answered your concerns.

If you have a change of heart. Change your vote. If not, Ame isn't going to kill you if you challenge her.

She didn't answer my concerns and i continue to disagree with her decision, it pains me a lot to see all those who voted A being "discarded" (with that i mean that our vision/opinion "won" but to no avail) in the end it's her game and her decision to make.

[CURIE]

Maybe, the reasoning behind people choosing A is that since they're grinding anyway, they might as well get EV training in as well.

[Amethyst]

She didn't answer my concerns and i continue to disagree with her decision, it pains me a lot to see all those who voted A being "discarded" (with that i mean that our vision/opinion "won" but to no avail) in the end it's her game and her decision to make.

I haven't made any decision yet, that's why I'm asking for refutations here. If you disagree with my decision back up to my other post and poke some holes in my thoughts. I'm not a brick wall.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

The entire reason I changed my mind to A was because of the Heart Scale issue, but if they become more available, then I have no problem with B. Grinding, for me, is tedious. I'm going to end up doing some anyway because my final two team members will need to catch up to the rest of my team. But it just feels like mindless busywork to me, so if there's less grinding, I'd be for it.

Also, yay I can vote now.

[Commander]

I'll get my refutations up as soon as I get back (curse you work getting in the way). I have a pretty good idea why A was picked a lot more compared to B or C (you also might wanna fix that poll because I can't vote anymore ).

[Amethyst]

I apparently managed to break the poll by deleting the other question, so I'm just dropping it, but I do want to continue discussing this. Option A clearly won, to my surprise so now I need to figure out why.

Grind is good

Yes, but why is it good?

"Please provide evidence to support your answer."

[Gaunt]

• Gets all the dex entries: Solved if we go Option B with our poll question
• Rewards hard work: I don't agree that grinding is 'hard work' so much as it is tedious work. To reward tedium is to encourage tedium, which is inconsistent with our goal.
• Feeling of raising a 'baby': This feeling is better-fulfilled and better-rewarded by breeding the Pokemon in question, on which increasing its level will not have a meaningful impact.
• Gets moves without heart scales: Fair, but I would much sooner increase the availability of heart scales instead (the Luvdisc rate has already been set back to 50% for E15), rather than create events that encourage or necessitate grinding. I believe that searching for those for half an hour is more entertaining than slaughtering Unown for two hours.
• EV Training along the way: Another valid point, although EV training is also in itself tedious (something Gamefreak acknowledged with the introduction of Super Training). Our ability to create such minigames for that is limited, but I'm interested in exploring alternatives to this to help sort out EVs on Pokemon that have run through the story, such as making EV-reducing items readily available at a certain point. Ideally any Pokemon should be able to be EV trained on-the-go.
• Adds gameplay time: with no added gameplay. Time spent is worthless if it's not interesting (looking at you, Bravely Default). I would much rather players spend 20 hours on a game and have a blast every minute of it, than have players spend 120 hours on a game and large parts of that time be a grindfest.
• Worth it if the player likes the Pokemon: This is not a benefit to grinding so much as a common echo in defense of it that I want to address. Per the aforementioned goal of increasing diversity, we're trying to encourage players to use Pokemon they might not normally want. So while raising Scraggy is totally worth it to the numerous Scrafty fans, other players won't see the twenty levels they need to raise it as being worth their time. On the contrary if they have happen to have a Scraggy that could be Shade-ready with just a few levels and some TLC, it requires much less of an investment on their part to at least give the poor thing a try so that they might decide 'hey, this is pretty boss, let's keep using it'.
• Creates a bond: I'll refer back to Dobby's anecdote and similar cases as the ideal version of this. Similarly I question if this 'bond' is a result of the Pokemon's capabilities, or a result of the fact that the player has already committed to putting so much time into raising the Pokemon in question that they feel like not-doing-so would be a waste.

On it:

1) Dex entries - no question here

2) Hard work - here i disagree, in my opinion (and i repeat: my opinion) grinding is hard work and it's rewarding (for me) it makes me feel good when i see my monster "grow" evolve and become stronger, people can argue that i could use Common Candies or breed if i want to grind so much but that's the point i don't want to use those things i want to get my low level event mon and start to grind right away without additional effort.

3) Raising a mon - See answer 2

4) Hearth Scales - Addressed and resolved no question here

5) EV training - addressed but not resolved, i feel (again: my opinion) it's easier to EV train while grinding (maybe listening to some good music)

6) Adds time - addressed but only partially resolved, i'll explain: you make the point that this time spent is worthless/uninteresting but it is not so for me i find it relaxing (and certainly not worthless) so to make a point your "solution" only addresses players who don't have much time or don't want to spend it on this process which do not comprehend the entire player base.

7) Worth it if you like the Pokemon - addressed and resolved

8) Bonds - another one on which i disagree, there are different types of bonds, they are all different dobby's "case" may work for some people but not for others, it depends on the player which type of bond he wants/can create.

Like i said before neither option/path is ideal (and it can't be) that's why the majority should decide.

[Felicity]

2) Hard work - here i disagree, in my opinion (and i repeat: my opinion) grinding is hard work and it's rewarding (for me) it makes me feel good when i see my monster "grow" evolve and become stronger, people can argue that i could use Common Candies or breed if i want to grind so much but that's the point i don't want to use those things i want to get my low level event mon and start to grind right away without additional effort.

So, you're saying you don't want to waste time and effort when it's not necessary? That's exactly the reason I want higher levels. Think for a second, with access to mons like Magcargo with magma armor that makes it easier to hatch and access to a bike, hatching is really quite quick (15 minutes, maybe?) in comparison to 3 hours of solid training. It's quite unfair really to insist that one group should deal with the situation when making the compromise of 15/20 minutes can make many people a lot happier. Because the 3 hours you'd take to grind evidently isn't the issue from what I can tell, it's that extra 15/20 minutes.

Hell, why is that extra time breeding an issue? in for a penny, in for a pound, you're gonna be investing time anyway, what's a little more time?

[Gaunt]

So, you're saying you don't want to waste time and effort when it's not necessary? That's exactly the reason I want higher levels. Think for a second, with access to mons like Magcargo with magma armor that makes it easier to hatch and access to a bike, hatching is really quite quick (15 minutes, maybe?) in comparison to 3 hours of solid training. It's quite unfair really to insist that one group should deal with the situation when making the compromise of 15/20 minutes can make many people a lot happier. Because the 3 hours you'd take to grind evidently isn't the issue from what I can tell, it's that extra 15/20 minutes.

The problem is i enjoy grinding but i do not enjoy breeding, there is no "compromise" whatever decision will be made part of the players will not be happy. There was a suggestion in this tread to place rebattable trainers at key points in the game, that can be a "partial" solution for those who don't like to grind but they will still complain.

[Odybld]

Seconding the above. I am -actually- looking for the refutation to my previous points and reasoning behind the popularity of the A choice because like I said I'm very surprised that so many people would be attached to grinding, and I do want to know why.

As an "A" voter myself, I think that there are three other reasons behind A getting a comfortable majority. And I really like your wording: attached.

a. Habbit. Players have gotten used to grind for Pokemon they want, especially if they breed.

b. Avoiding the awkwardness. It's a game to make us feel good and comfortable, not an exercise in rational assett management. It kinda snowballs with A to make a decision partly based on what feels less bad, the tedious habbit or the awkward fix.

c. Fixability. Grinding and its positives can stay in place and become much faster with more rebattlable trainers, getting the exp items earlier, or just more trainers to fight throughout the region.

That said, in my latest run I'm just about to go to Apophyll after beating Shade and shutting down the factory. I already have 10 Pokemon between 35 and 40, and six of them are not fully evolved, three former party members that fell off and sit in the box (Kricks, Loudred and Meowstic, which is 31 and may come back until Aya) and I want to grind 4 more Pokemon as soon as I can (Trapinch, Cleffa, Petitil, Noibat and maybe one more Trapinch). I want to raise a huge team, or rather army, and damn is it tiring and boring. But well, I wanna do it. It sucks, but it's awesome.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Odybld

[Claydoll]

Seconding the above. I am -actually- looking for the refutation to my previous points and reasoning behind the popularity of the A choice because like I said I'm very surprised that so many people would be attached to grinding, and I do want to know why.

Hilda says she'd rather grind than use scales; even if they become more common, would others agree? I don't, because they're already not a limited resource and nothing is gained by not using them. The change from grinding > scales seems to just save players a lot of time via a more interesting alternative. But my opinion is not the end-all here.

Again, none of those benefits attributed to grinding would be really lost with such changes, and while i prefer the option A from the poll it isn't like i would stop playing should the status quo were to be changed.

As to go more in depth with the points in your reasoning:

- Dex entries: It already requires some amounts of breeding and while it is time intensive it's not the same kind of grind, even if it manages to feel even more tedious by being just a checklist waiting to be filled. it's one of those things people willing to do will do so regardless of anything bar artificial gating.

- Rewarding hard work: You mentioned it being more akin to rewarding tedious work, some may feel like it and some may not, i personally consider it only tedious when alternatives aren't apparent or when it fails and makes the ordeal feel like a waste but neither happen often enough and even if you have stated your stance against it there is still a need to make the recently-grinded pokemon fit in a strategy (even if it steamrolls the challenge of choice) and that will give a sense of player accomplishment no matter what... how much depends if the player in question feels like it cheapens the experience, but still manages to appreciate the intended or more creative ways of overcoming the same challenge.

- "Raising a baby": breeding actually feels quite impersonal for me, even distant as it is represented by npcs saying lines that most players look while rolling their eyes, as opposed to raising the pokemon from it's earliest stages and watching it's growth along the way. The breeding/offspring stage feels different than the original, this here is completely subjective but i would still disagree with your assesment.

- Heart Scales: It may feel like "fixing a list of mistakes" to some when you are given a high lvl pokemon that may not have the desired moves and fishing for luvdiscs just does not seem like a compelling idea, could even come as inconvenient, for fixing something that could have been accomodated by the player itself on their pokemons.

- Added playtime: I repeat myself here, some of that time i consider to be beneficial to build expectative for an upcoming event or to cool off from the last one since i consider that "having a blast every minute of the game" can make a lot of the situations or events lack a sense of scale or seem fleeting instead of memorable and some even find those moments relaxing, this is a situation that resembles things like MMORPGs and is impossible to balance since it depends on the individual and the amount of preparation they are willing to make.

- Worth based of preference: You can only do so much after presenting the alternatives to the player while making sure they are (almost) ready to use... it is, again, preference since it could even seem forced on the player to use one of those hidden-but-exposed gems just to make it use something deemed inconventional and such pokemon could still not see much use or become the next best thing in a cycle that loops. In the worst case scenario it encourages replayability.

- Bonding: Bonds happen in any number of situations as the examples have shown, i would argue that this can have more to do with the team the player has been collecting when picking up a new member as opposed to just the pokemon in question, it is still bound mostly by usefulness in unlikely sitiations and while grinding or catching up dictate if the pokemon can be used the player already had their intentions regarding the pokemon clear beforehand.

[Felicity]

The problem is i enjoy grinding but i do not enjoy breeding, there is no "compromise" whatever decision will be made part of the players will not be happy. There was a suggestion in this tread to place rebattable trainers at key points in the game, that can be a "partial" solution for those who don't like to grind but they will still complain.

Either way you are investing time into a pokemon. How do you dislike 20 minutes of breeding to 2/3 hours of grinding? Again, you're investing time anyway and breeding could prove as beneficial as Ev training, trying to get deal Natuer/Ivs without soft-resetting. Time is the issue with those who dislike grinding, something that the people who are willing to grind with have no issue with if they are willing to grind. If one group gets an OPTIONAL 20 extra minutes to take away 2/3 hours of MANDATORY training for the other, that is an ideal compromise no?

[Chase]

Forcing more breeding on trainers that like grinding isn't practical. This is Pokemon. We grind -anyway- as we progress through the game, and if we find Pokemon that we want to use in the wild or through an event, the grind isnt an object because we want to use the pokemon.

Ame doesn't need to re-invent the wheel here. Grinding may not be everyones cup of tea, but its more of an issue in game that Reborn makes it hard to do so than it is that some pokemon are not ready to use. Fixing the grinding to be less tedious solves inconvenience as opposed to the alternative

Taking away reward or forcing impractical backtracking on players that enjoy grinding.

[Gaunt]

Either way you are investing time into a pokemon. How do you dislike 20 minutes of breeding to 2/3 hours of grinding? Again, you're investing time anyway and breeding could prove as beneficial as Ev training, trying to get deal Natuer/Ivs without soft-resetting. Time is the issue with those who dislike grinding, something that the people who are willing to grind with have no issue with if they are willing to grind. If one group gets an OPTIONAL 20 extra minutes to take away 2/3 hours of MANDATORY training for the other, that is an ideal compromise no?

It seems we can't understand each other....look i like grinding and battle Pokemon (while raising my EVs) if i put on my compilation of music those 3 hours...wait why 3? If you know where to grind it takes 1 hour (1,5 max) literally fly away while those 30 minutes of breeding feel like eternity (even with my music) really i almost fell asleep a couple of times, again i repeat this works only for me (you or someone else would prefer something different i assume) this is why i think it's better to let decide the majority (that way less people are discontent with the decision).