Necessarily Awkward Gamestuff

[Chase]

Theres actually a reason breeding feels less like an achievement (outside of breeding for IVs/nature/shiny) ...and thats because you actually feel like your making progress with grinding. To go back and breed produces backtracking and your only doing it so that you can start grinding. Theres no reward value in just hatching an egg for the amount of time it will take.

On the other hand, leveling up produces dopamine as we get closer to our moves of choice. Who would want to scale for those moves when it can be more exciting to "level up" to them. Then theres the issue of being forced to hunt scales for learnset moves AND start moves. Thats simply not practical.

[Yash]

For me it comes down to the pokemon available.. It doesn't matter which is it and what level it comes at, if I like the pokemon I will use it.. I do this with pokemon that I find are useful in the game even if I don't personally like them.. Something like Kricketune/Pachirisu.. I used them to get past certain gyms but not after that..

So, you're saying you don't want to waste time and effort when it's not necessary? That's exactly the reason I want higher levels. Think for a second, with access to mons like Magcargo with magma armor that makes it easier to hatch and access to a bike, hatching is really quite quick (15 minutes, maybe?) in comparison to 3 hours of solid training. It's quite unfair really to insist that one group should deal with the situation when making the compromise of 15/20 minutes can make many people a lot happier. Because the 3 hours you'd take to grind evidently isn't the issue from what I can tell, it's that extra 15/20 minutes.

Hell, why is that extra time breeding an issue? in for a penny, in for a pound, you're gonna be investing time anyway, what's a little more time?

With breeding the problem is that it forces me to discard the pokemon that I used as the mother/father and it's something that I hate.. I did this with petilil before the fight with noel.. Which it owned by the way.. Ame should look into Axing it.. I evolved it and with Quiver Dance and Petal Dance with the Own Tempo ability it destroyed 4 of noels pokemon.. Wigglytuff just cannot manage to hurt it.. But I digress.. My point is after breeding I left that mother petilil in the box..This happens with pretty much any pokemon you breed.. It's an issue for me.. Again it's a personal thing..

Another thing is bonding with the pokemon.. For me it comes down to the amount of time I spend with it, not how it performs.. I like greninja, despite it being a really bad starter in the game.. For the event pokemon in game, look at when bulbasaur was available, or even the chespin egg.. They may not perform really well but after grinding and using them for a while I kept them as a part of my rotational team.. The satisfaction of raising the pokemon made me keep them despite having better alternatives.. I guess it's more that I know how that pokemon got where it was.. I know a large part of it's history and its something I have shared with the pokemon in the journey.. Simply put, for me Pokemon games are all about the journey.. At the end of the day that is the most important and fun aspect of the game for me.. Grinding/investing time is all part of the journey.. When you give me a pokemon at a higher level I do have the chance to breed it, but it involves me discarding the other pokemon to gain a sense of satisfaction in raising the pokemon..

Also I find the argument about using common candies unnatural.. For one thing it's a non-cannon item, and I don't get how it would lower a level of a pokemon.. The concept of rare candies is that the nutrients/chemicals in the candy strengthen the pokemon.. For common candies it would mean that the ingredients are harmful for the pokemon, which basically means you are poisoning the pokemon.. Again this is a personal opinion..

[NickCrash]

People who are keen on making bonds with their pokemon are the same who regard breeding a eugenics simulator, and as such, will not use it.

[Felicity]

Forcing more breeding on trainers that like grinding isn't practical. This is Pokemon. We grind -anyway- as we progress through the game, and if we find Pokemon that we want to use in the wild or through an event, the grind isnt an object because we want to use the pokemon.

Ame doesn't need to re-invent the wheel here. Grinding may not be everyones cup of tea, but its more of an issue in game that Reborn makes it hard to do so than it is that some pokemon are not ready to use. Fixing the grinding to be less tedious solves inconvenience as opposed to the alternative

Taking away reward or forcing impractical backtracking on players that enjoy grinding.

There is an obvious difference between winning trainer battles and artificially grinding. It's one thing to just play through the games story, it's another to go out to, say, the Aventurine bulls, one of the most popular grinding spots before ep 13/4.

I agree that grinding when done right can be fine in spots. Two notable points in time when grinding is exceptionally easier is when you are paired up with victoria/Aya in their respective areas. The immediate healing and aid makes grinding ten times easier t the point where I actively use Aya as a checkpoint of sorts to raise up younger members. That said, what about when you are facing Charlotte and you need a new mon? You don't have the luxury of such an accomodating grind and a new player will likely have to step back and break the games story pacing to grind. Oh look, that piplup looks useful- level 15. You're supposed to be fighting to get waterfall to rescue Titania and Amaria, naaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh, let's just stop and murder the wildlife. Also the wildlife aren't pushovers. Let me tell you, Roserade relies on trainer battles to stay on par in your team during aventurine. It can't reliably take a thrash from either bull and it can't touch the numerous bugs in the area. So, no decent grinding there.

It seems we can't understand each other....look i like grinding and battle Pokemon (while raising my EVs) if i put on my compilation of music those 3 hours...wait why 3? If you know where to grind it takes 1 hour (1,5 max) literally fly away while those 30 minutes of breeding feel like eternity (even with my music) really i almost fell asleep a couple of times, again i repeat this works only for me (you or someone else would prefer something different i assume) this is why i think it's better to let decide the majority (that way less people are discontent with the decision).

Ok, so you deal with grinding much the same way I do. Thing is, the hours don't fly away for me. Furthermore, here's the thing I really don't understand to address the breeding thing, again I ask why not invest the tiny bit of extra time? The argument is the same to me as someone refusing to run a 120 meter race and would rather do 100 meters whist you insist that others who don't want to race at all must do the 100 meters. It just seems daft to me. Furtermore, it's not like you're chain-breeding for a perfect artifical pokemon, just grab one egg and take it, go. You need not hatch 6 eggs IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. Again, I bring up this idea that those who can grind do still have more options than those who don't like grinding. Those who don't like grinding, provided option A is taken, are effectively punished far more severely (a forced 1/1.5 hours which is still triple/double the breeding time) than if option B was taken and an extra optional 20/30 minutes to get an egg.

I've seen no argument against the idea that Option B gives more choice for EVERYONE, only digressions into the idea that breeding is impersonal for stated reasons and grinding has more pros. That is fairly well addressed, grinding is not the only way to bond, EV training can be made easier, the argument relies on this arbitrary idea that it just doesn't feel right, and I can understand this I also build up bonds with my pokemon in-game but itcan't be dealt with because of the emotional nature, whereas the issues facing those who dislike grinding are logical and easily resolved to the trivial detriment of the players who enjoy grinding. It really does seem unfair to me to insist that some must invest time they would rather not when they so easily don't have to. simply because some people don't want to invest an extra 20 minutes/ don't feel like they'd be attached to their pokemon without it.

EDIT: I realise this tone might seem quite rude/chastising, I really don't mean it that way

[Personthing]

It's surprising to see so many people arguing for grinding here. I've literally never seen a game praised for forcing the player to grind if they want to proceed/use a new option available to them, (in fact, that's almost always considered a very bad thing) and games are often praised for not forcing it/giving the player alternate, more rewarding methods of getting stronger. (EX: Exploring in Xenoblade Chronicles) It's one of the things that turns a lot of people off games like the Shin Megami Tensei series, where you often have to grind just to not get killed by the next boss in one hit.

Grinding also breaks the flow of the story, in almost every game that you can grind in. "Oh, the orphanage kids have been kidnapped? Let me go grind up 3 new team members before going off to rescue them, it's no big deal."

There has been no arguments against the fact that option B does give people the most options on how they want to play the game. Option A forces people who aren't grind happy to completely ignore their reward, or waste their time in boredom. While people who insist on grinding can lower the Pokemon's level, or breed a new one.

People who are keen on making bonds with their pokemon are the same who regard breeding a eugenics simulator, and as such, will not use it.

Yet, I fail to see how committing genocide on the local wildlife for a good 5 hours is bonding.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Gaunt]

Yet, I fail to see how committing genocide on the local wildlife for a good 5 hours is bonding.

Because of 1 word: "together"

You "commit genocide" with your mon and that bonds you with him (it doesn't work for everyone of course)

[Chase]

They faint. Do you even play pokemon?

Grinding is an experience people enjoy in Pokemon games specifically though. People feel good when they level up. You get to watch your pokemon grow. You get to manage your learnset free of charge. You get to see the wild pokemon out there which could be a potential team member you didn't consider because you usually spam repels.

This isn't a typical RPG in that the player has so much choice and influence behind their -own- story. Removing the grind makes certain pokemon clearly better than others and damages usage of wild Pokemon because story mowers are repel happy.

[Felicity]

They faint. Do you even play pokemon?

Grinding is an experience people enjoy in Pokemon games specifically though. People feel good when they level up. You get to watch your pokemon grow. You get to manage your learnset free of charge. You get to see the wild pokemon out there which could be a potential team member you didn't consider because you usually spam repels.

This isn't a typical RPG in that the player has so much choice and influence behind their -own- story. Removing the grind makes certain pokemon clearly better than others and damages usage of wild Pokemon because story mowers are repel happy.

Ok, it's established that grinding can be considered bonding. I've argued this in the past myself, it's a reflection of the training that you actually see in the anime and whatnot.

That said, how is the highlighted text an argument hilda? You're wrong in that pokemon is praised for the wide variety and choice one normally gets when making their team of 6. The combinations are nigh endless. However, that choice is taken away when a player is discouraged by grinding. If they -want- it sure, they'll fight for it but I for one find that a bitch which really isn't necessary, especially as it is now where grinding is forced upon a player who wants a pokemon. Furthermore, isn't making certain mons better than others a plus? Influencing usage like that can be ideal for providing players with team options. If a pokemon is better, make the requirements to get it harder, don't make it level 15 to fight level 60s in an hour or two.

Also, could you elaborate on your point in damaging wild pokemon use? I don't understand what you mean by that.

If you're suggesting that someone will skip over wild mons because of repel, then that's another choice they make. If they do it because they know of an event, then that's fine too, it's a choice. That said, this won't happen from the PoV of a new player because they won't know of those events at all.

[Personthing]

They faint. Do you even play pokemon?

You're joking, right? Of course the Pokemon don't die.

Grinding is an experience people enjoy in Pokemon games specifically though. People feel good when they level up. You get to watch your pokemon grow. You get to manage your learnset free of charge. You get to see the wild pokemon out there which could be a potential team member you didn't consider because you usually spam repels.

Forcing grinding is not good game design. It's just a way to make the game more tedious with no strategy at all. It's why we've gotten the new EXP share in the main games, however flawed it may be. (I'm not suggesting adding it to Reborn, but just saying.)

This isn't a typical RPG in that the player has so much choice and influence behind their -own- story. Removing the grind makes certain pokemon clearly better than others and damages usage of wild Pokemon because story mowers are repel happy.

why not make the requirements to get the event Pokemon more challenging? Also, event Pokemon are rewards for side questing. Right now it's almost like Final Fantasy 13 (That game is awful) where you'll have upgraded your weapon, get excited when you find a new weapon, but find out that it's much weaker than your current weapon because you have worked on your current weapon. Sure it can become better after a lot of time investment, but your current weapon can see you through the game. This shiny new treasure, has literally become vendor trash with little incentive to use it. Right now in Reborn, most of the event Pokemon after the Onyx ward are that vendor trash. It's making the variety that we've praised this game for meaningless.

I really do enjoy Reborn, but I feel that the game gives absolutely no incentive to add any new party members after Byxbsion Wasteland.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Yash]

Also another problem is that certain moves aren't learned by the pokemon if it hasn't forgotten it.. That means that if I get a pokemon like trapinch or buneary at a higher level and they evolve, their evolved forms may not be able to learn certain moves.. For example Vibrava and Bug buzz.. My Flygon cannot relearn it.. While it may not be an example of an event pokemon, you get the idea.. It's the same with Togekiss.. I tried it by getting a togepi at level 15 and evolving it twice and it can't learn fairy wind, even though togetic should be able to learn it at level 14.. This could be a problem in some cases.. Just a point against option B.. Though I can't confirm it completely.. Maybe I missed something.. Really tired here.. Can somebody confirm this please??

EDIT: @Mighty Kamina.. I don't agree when you say there are no pokemon worth shifting after the wasteland.. Specially considering that many of the most liked pokemon are available only after that,(sneasel, absol, beldum) I would say many people would change their teams, specially since a bunch of the earlier pokemon just aren't good enough later on in the game(kricky, emolga).. We need more and better pokemon as the story progresses and the event pokemon are useful/wanted..

Edited March 22, 2015 by Yash

[Chase]

Ame has repeatedly said that diversity in usage is a goal. Repel immediately suggests that wild Pokemon shouldn't exist - let alone be considered for usage. Some people legitimately don't care to look up locations of Pokemon on the guide and thus the wild Pokemon already have an uphill battle to climb for attention. Event Pokemon that are immediately better further discourages exploration and use of wilds because these Pokemon will eventually have egg moves and without a grind or some sort of drawback, will be a no brainer for most trainers. The developers preference here outweighs diversity and hurts the game accomplishing this goal later on.

A Grind may be discouraging, but it's completely avoidable which helps earlier Pokemon see more use as they would be outclassed later in the game. This -HELPS- the goal of diversity. Theres nothing stopping one but themselves when it comes to grinding. If you want the Pokemon for use - it's there for the taking. You just have to choose to work with it or keep your current team.

[Felicity]

Also another problem is that certain moves aren't learned by the pokemon if it hasn't forgotten it.. That means that if I get a pokemon like trapinch or buneary at a higher level and they evolve, their evolved forms may not be able to learn certain moves.. For example Vibrava and Bug buzz.. My Flygon cannot relearn it.. While it may not be an example of an event pokemon, you get the idea.. It's the same with Togekiss.. I tried it by getting a togepi at level 15 and evolving it twice and it can't learn fairy wind, even though togetic should be able to learn it at level 14.. This could be a problem in some cases.. Just a point against option B.. Though I can't confirm it completely.. Maybe I missed something.. Really tired here.. Can somebody confirm this please??

So, moves learned by a prior Evo? That is an issue, especially in the case of babies/Freindship based evos. However, the only mons I can see suffering from this is Magby/Elekid who if raised level would suffer far more, though they could just use another HS if you really needed a move. Most friendship mons can be found in their baby forms anyway. That said, this is the awkward part of it all. Deciding by each case what level/movesets etc the mons should have. There are a LOT of events that would be hit if option b was taken.

Ame has repeatedly said that diversity in usage is a goal. Repel immediately suggests that wild Pokemon shouldn't exist - let alone be considered for usage. Some people legitimately don't care to look up locations of Pokemon on the guide and thus the wild Pokemon already have an uphill battle to climb for attention. Event Pokemon that are immediately better further discourages exploration and use of wilds because these Pokemon will eventually have egg moves and without a grind or some sort of drawback, will be a no brainer for most trainers. The developers preference here outweighs diversity and hurts the game accomplishing this goal later on.

A Grind may be discouraging, but it's completely avoidable which helps earlier Pokemon see more use as they would be outclassed later in the game. This -HELPS- the goal of diversity. Theres nothing stopping one but themselves when it comes to grinding. If you want the Pokemon for use - it's there for the taking. You just have to choose to work with it or keep your current team.

Again, why not change the requirements to get access to a mon? Grinding can't be the only way to stop it all. What about adding extra requirements to even trigger an event like weather conditions/ Badge requirements, perhaps only appearing when X pokemon line has had their pokedex entries filled out, if possible? That would certainly be a preferable alternative because that both circumvents grinding and promotes diversity.

[Personthing]

Ame has repeatedly said that diversity in usage is a goal. Repel immediately suggests that wild Pokemon shouldn't exist - let alone be considered for usage. Some people legitimately don't care to look up locations of Pokemon on the guide and thus the wild Pokemon already have an uphill battle to climb for attention. Event Pokemon that are immediately better further discourages exploration and use of wilds because these Pokemon will eventually have egg moves and without a grind or some sort of drawback, will be a no brainer for most trainers. The developers preference here outweighs diversity and hurts the game accomplishing this goal later on.

A Grind may be discouraging, but it's completely avoidable which helps earlier Pokemon see more use as they would be outclassed later in the game. This -HELPS- the goal of diversity. Theres nothing stopping one but themselves when it comes to grinding. If you want the Pokemon for use - it's there for the taking. You just have to choose to work with it or keep your current team.

When in a lot of cases generic wild Pokemon straight up outclass Pokemon that are meant as rewards, there is a problem, no?

[NickCrash]

Do you mind mentioning some of them?

[Chase]

And yet, usage already favors events, so it would seem like wild Pokemon already get the shaft.

I understand that wilds are not supposed to outclass events, but then there goes the diversity argument. There goes the individual exploration which is a successful and cherished part of an ideal Pokemon game.

[Felicity]

Do you mind mentioning some of them?

Makuhita > Scrafty

Most of the birds > Tropius

Drillbur/most wild mons in general > Solrock/lunatone in tanzan.

Yamask/Duskull > Misdreavus who, unless given Dbond/ Nasty plot isn't too god of a sp attacker. You may as well take one of the walls that you get earlier on at a decent level.

These are off the top of my head.

[madf0x]

Its not like it has to be entirely one way or the other. No reason why you couldnt have low leveled event pokemon when it makes sense(baby pokemon like magby) and have others like absol come in at higher levels.

Overall I do have to agree with the idea of lessening grinding. Its basic game design and you can't get around that fact. Just because pokemon games have historically been grind heavy doesn't mean reborn has to demand it as an extra cost for using an event pokemon. Especially if we do start getting easier EV training options and heart scale access.

Also it is a simple fact that wild pokemon barring rare pokemon are going to be outclassed by event pokemon. Most wild pokemon are designed to be generic fodder. Simply looking a BST, movesets, and abilities can tell you that. Theres nothing wrong with this. Promoting diversity doesnt mean that every single pokemon has to have some godly niche. Despite the whole mythos pokemon games have perpetuated of 'all pokemon are equal!!!' its simple fact that not all pokemon are created equal. Yet reborn has gone a long way to give love to pokemon thatd often be overlooked, and a great number of those pokemon hapen to be event pokemon. I dont believe that is a simple coincidence.

[Chase]

I don't think it has to be the rule either as I've already said, but the rule doesn't need revision so much as things need to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

People do enjoy grinding. That in itself is why A got so many votes. It's actually not an evil to some gamers to begin with. Thats the basis that we should make strides to fix things from.

[Shamitako]

• Gets all the dex entries: Solved if we go Option B with our poll question
• Rewards hard work: I don't agree that grinding is 'hard work' so much as it is tedious work. To reward tedium is to encourage tedium, which is inconsistent with our goal.
• Feeling of raising a 'baby': This feeling is better-fulfilled and better-rewarded by breeding the Pokemon in question, on which increasing its level will not have a meaningful impact.
• Gets moves without heart scales: Fair, but I would much sooner increase the availability of heart scales instead (the Luvdisc rate has already been set back to 50% for E15), rather than create events that encourage or necessitate grinding. I believe that searching for those for half an hour is more entertaining than slaughtering Unown for two hours.
• EV Training along the way: Another valid point, although EV training is also in itself tedious (something Gamefreak acknowledged with the introduction of Super Training). Our ability to create such minigames for that is limited, but I'm interested in exploring alternatives to this to help sort out EVs on Pokemon that have run through the story, such as making EV-reducing items readily available at a certain point. Ideally any Pokemon should be able to be EV trained on-the-go.
• Adds gameplay time: with no added gameplay. Time spent is worthless if it's not interesting (looking at you, Bravely Default). I would much rather players spend 20 hours on a game and have a blast every minute of it, than have players spend 120 hours on a game and large parts of that time be a grindfest.
• Worth it if the player likes the Pokemon: This is not a benefit to grinding so much as a common echo in defense of it that I want to address. Per the aforementioned goal of increasing diversity, we're trying to encourage players to use Pokemon they might not normally want. So while raising Scraggy is totally worth it to the numerous Scrafty fans, other players won't see the twenty levels they need to raise it as being worth their time. On the contrary if they have happen to have a Scraggy that could be Shade-ready with just a few levels and some TLC, it requires much less of an investment on their part to at least give the poor thing a try so that they might decide 'hey, this is pretty boss, let's keep using it'.
• Creates a bond: I'll refer back to Dobby's anecdote and similar cases as the ideal version of this. Similarly I question if this 'bond' is a result of the Pokemon's capabilities, or a result of the fact that the player has already committed to putting so much time into raising the Pokemon in question that they feel like not-doing-so would be a waste.

• Gets all the dex entries - Meh, I only do that Pokedex in the post-game
• Rewards hard work - You're right that it's tedious. But that's not because the Pokemon are at a low level, it's because Reborn (and most main series Pokemon games) are terrible for grinding. I don't enjoy it in the least in a game like Reborn. Though it's always been very enjoyable for me in games with a Vs. Seeker. I love running around looking for people to battle again and trying to figure out the fastest way to beat a certain trainer or the way to trigger the most different re-battle-able trainers in one usage. But in most games grinding is just "go into grass, attack, get a tiny amount of exp." If grinding were faster for those who planned and strategized, it would still be hard work but less tedious (similar to how beating gym leaders is easier when you've got a strategy but becomes a nigh insurmountable challenge when you don't)
• Feeling of raising a 'baby' - <3
• Gets moves without heart scales - Eh, Heart Scales are a renewable resource which I am not against abusing
• EV Training along the way - Much helpful here. IN my case, I'm not actually doing real EV training, just letting them pick up EVs as the battles go along. To give me a higher level Pokemon means I either have to stop my story and go catch it up to my team on EVs, or toss it in the box
• Adds gameplay time - Good for people who have time to play, bad for people who
• Worth it if the player likes the Pokemon - Eh, I'm not really grinding per se, so it doesn't matter that much whether I like something or not
• Creates a bond - And here we go. See, I've had both types of bonding happen previously, but never with a Pokemon I just picked up for a battle. Though I've only done that like twice (if I'm gonna make a swap to defeat a specific opponent, I plan it in advance). Once in Reborn I got a Pidove for Florinia, and I don't even remember if I kept it as an HM slave or shoved it my box when I found Emolga... And in XY I caught a Zweilos to fill the last slot in my team before the E4 and replace whatever HM slave I had at the time. Post E4 I tossed it in the box, I don't think it's even level 100 yet... Even my HM slave/egg hatching Volcarona and my Thief Noivern are level 100 at this point (And I love the both of them, Volcarona almost never leaves my party anymore, even when I'm not using it)
• Anyways, both ways. Back in Gen IV I was facing off against the E4 Fire guy. And the only thing I had left alive was my level 30 Tropius who literally only knew Fly (I had deleted all his other HM moves in hopes of getting some actually useful stuff as he leveled a bit) And managed to revive one of my aces and take down four (probably less, I feel like the number gets bigger every time I tell this story) of his Pokemon before being taken down. And I still love Tropius, purely because of that. I'd also had it with me for most of the story, thus why I'd removed its HMs in hopes of it becoming useful
• But I've also got things like the aforementioned Volcarona who I love purely because I've had her with me for so long (I've got like 500 hours on Y, and she's been with me for at least 300) and she has yet to fail me. Even when she was just a Larvesta there to help me hatch eggs she did her duty well and slowly crept into my heart
• It's not even grinding that creates a bond, it's the need to keep them with you for a while. If I could take a level 15 Pokemon and within five minutes make it match my team's level through "grinding," that'd be no different than just giving it to me at my level. It's the fact that I have to spend time with it that brings me to bond with it. Personally, I don't grind very much. I get a new Pokemon that looks cute or fun to use (EX: Inkay in Y) and it might be a ways behind my team (about ten levels at that point) but I'll toss it in the front of my party and switch-train it as a progress through the story (or just Exp. Share it if I have that) It might need a little grinding to be up to par by the time I reach the next big battle, but most likely it won't need very much. But since I had it with me and got to watch it grow anyways, and maybe it even did some Growl shenanigans to save my team from getting crushed by that one trainer and his over-leveled Whirlipede, I've grown attached to it and am excited to use it in the next fight

There's also breeding being mentioned. I love breeding as a post-game thing to do things like create competitive Pokemon and shinies, but I don't enjoy stopping my story progression for it. It's a neat mechanic, but not one that's enjoyable in the middle of the story (especially since you have to go all the way back to wherever the breeder person is to do it, instead of just throwing yourself at the next wild battle)

I'm sure there's fifty new posts since I started writing this, so Ima just post it now

EDIT: Oh, and also, I don't think they need to be at level 5 when everything is level 50. Somewhere around half the level of wild Pokemon/trainers (not sure how big the disparity between those two is) at the time would be comfortable. There's also things that don't evolve that could more comfortably be found at slightly higher levels than those that do

Edited March 22, 2015 by KosherKitten

[Personthing]

Makuhita > Scrafty

Most of the birds > Tropius

Drillbur/most wild mons in general > Solrock/lunatone in tanzan.

Yamask/Duskull > Misdreavus who, unless given Dbond/ Nasty plot isn't too god of a sp attacker. You may as well take one of the walls that you get earlier on at a decent level.

These are off the top of my head.

Well, you ninja'd me...

I mean, most wild Pokemon are fodder, regardless of how you try to implement them. It's just how the game goes, as Game Freak has done a piss poor job of balancing Pokemon.

In most cases though, anyone who isn't super grind happy is just going to ignore most of the events thrown at the player, which makes the effort to promote these underused Pokemon null and void, at least to that player. It's just not a rewarding feeling to navigate my way through the forest on Route 1 to get a Heracross, (Not an underused Pokemon, but the point still stands) only to get it at level 30 (or something similar) when I had been fighting level 50 Heracross or generic wild Pokemon at level 50. It actually put a bad taste in my mouth, and I had felt that I had wasted a good few hours of my time navigating those hellish woods. It wasn't a reward at all, and I put a lot of work into getting that Heracross. I just feel like that's how a lot of people who pick up the game will feel, especially when the early game has some event Pokemon like Lillipup (Usable from the get go, but doesn't dominate) and Electrike that really feel like rewards for whatever trouble the player has gone through to get them. (Or lack thereof in Electrike's case)

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[madf0x]

One other idea Id like to throw out that people will probably vehemently disagree with me over, but it may be neat for some(but very very few) event pokemon to actually be over the level cap for the point you get it at. Only one that comes to mind atm as a candidate would be the absol. Especially after the topic where there are a lot of signs of absol being reborns unofficial mascot, a lot of main pokemon games will place legendaries/mascots as overleveled for the area. The idea would be here is this cool really strong pokemon but even if you catch it, it doesn't respect you as a trainer yet till you can prove yourself.

Might be neat, slightly on topic, braced for the oncoming no ways.

edit: oh yeah that heracross event really should be at least on par with the ones you have to fight to get it, just really makes no sense at all that itd be low level.

Edited March 22, 2015 by madf0x

[Shamitako]

One other idea Id like to throw out that people will probably vehemently disagree with me over, but it may be neat for some(but very very few) event pokemon to actually be over the level cap for the point you get it at. Only one that comes to mind atm as a candidate would be the absol. Especially after the topic where there are a lot of signs of absol being reborns unofficial mascot, a lot of main pokemon games will place legendaries/mascots as overleveled for the area. The idea would be here is this cool really strong pokemon but even if you catch it, it doesn't respect you as a trainer yet till you can prove yourself.

This is actually a really neat idea. Also I would probably use these since it literally requires "bonding time" before they'll listen to you. Of course most people would probs just box them/common candy them until they could use them, so that might not work out very well

[Gaunt]

One other idea Id like to throw out that people will probably vehemently disagree with me over, but it may be neat for some(but very very few) event pokemon to actually be over the level cap for the point you get it at. Only one that comes to mind atm as a candidate would be the absol. Especially after the topic where there are a lot of signs of absol being reborns unofficial mascot, a lot of main pokemon games will place legendaries/mascots as overleveled for the area. The idea would be here is this cool really strong pokemon but even if you catch it, it doesn't respect you as a trainer yet till you can prove yourself.

...why? I can understand Legendaries (they're supposed to be "strong") but for others it makes little sense

[Chase]

There's no trouble in Electrikes case. Start playing the game on a rainy day.

I wouldn't mind over-the-cap event mons. It's a good way to feasibly bring in higher tiered Pokemon, lower tiered legends into the game and could help keep us honest against upper echelon boss fights.

[Personthing]

There's no trouble in Electrikes case. Start playing the game on a rainy day.

especially when the early game has some event Pokemon like Lillipup (Usable from the get go, but doesn't dominate) and Electrike that really feel like rewards for whatever trouble the player has gone through to get them. (Or lack thereof in Electrike's case)

Yeah, I know that. It's just an example of an event Pokemon actually feeling like a reward for something. I'd be totally cool with lowering it's level a bit as it's level is very high for when you get it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina