Necessarily Awkward Gamestuff

[Felicity]

There's no trouble in Electrikes case. Start playing the game on a rainy day.

It's probs axed by now at this point anyway.

[Yash]

There's no trouble in Electrikes case. Start playing the game on a rainy day.

Actually that's not true.. In my latest run it took over 2 weeks to get the first rainy day.. By that time I was already fighting Noel.. So that entirely made me skip Electrike..

It's probs axed by now at this point anyway.

What??

EDIT: Also I totally forgot to mention this before, but as Hilda pointed out, creating easier training spots and infinitely re-battle able trainers along with having pokemon at a slightly higher level but not at something like 50 would be a good way to balance the whole situation.. That way the grinding required would be reduced and at the same time easier.. Saving time for those not interested, yet allowing those who are interested to do so..

Edited March 22, 2015 by Yash

[Felicity]

Actually that's not true.. In my latest run it took over 2 weeks to get the first rainy day.. By that time I was already fighting Noel.. So that entirely made me skip Electrike..

What??

Elektrike was a big offender for early op-nes in "The Axe" thread, right? It was a very strong early electric type that kinda drew away from others. Therefore, axed

[Chase]

See? Why would you use Pachirisu over Electrike then? (and Pachirisu is pretty good, its just that its the other option at that point)

It's possible to change the weather yourself, Yash, but props for being on the straight and narrow.

[madf0x]

...why? I can understand Legendaries (they're supposed to be "strong") but for others it makes little sense

Man its called the Rule of Cool. We aint getting legendaries anytime soon, and some pokemon would fit the role. A pokemon doesnt have to be legendary to be 'strong'. To me Absol fits very well with this idea, and there maybe a small handful of others thatd work.

Eh Im not gunna cry if the idea isnt incorporated, just thought it might be neat and that maybe others would think its neat.

[Chase]

I think over-the-cap mons are okay.

I think below the cap mons that require a bit of time (be it happiness or level grinding) are okay.

In some cases I think some pokemon can be allowed to be a bit higher up, but this isn't something I think should be the rule. At all. Ready-to-use greatly reduces the need for choice. Roll with the easy -and- more beneficial option. No thanks.

[Shamitako]

To reiterate, the thing with over-the-cap mons is that you can always just common candy them back down to useable levels (unless maybe you couldn't common candy them somehow until after you'd made them listen to you? That would probs be tough to program tho)

Outside that, I love the idea (I also think maybe that should be its own thread... It fits here, but not a ton)

Edited March 22, 2015 by KosherKitten

[Yash]

Elektrike was a big offender for early op-nes in "The Axe" thread, right? It was a very strong early electric type that kinda drew away from others. Therefore, axed

Hmm.. True.. Totally forgot about it after the whole Talonflame argument.. Lol..

See? Why would you use Pachirisu over Electrike then? (and Pachirisu is pretty good, its just that its the other option at that point)

It's possible to change the weather yourself, Yash, but props for being on the straight and narrow.

Ya I know we can change the weather.. I'm just too lazy... .. Plus at that given point I don't find too much of a difference in Pachi and Electrike.. Plus once you reach Onyx you can get Shinx so Electrike really isn't all that big a deal..

[Chase]

Shinx is actually earned - and yet not everybody chooses to play arcade games to have enough coins for it. It's a perfect event Pokemon whose rivals are Pichu, Electrike, and ....still Pachirisu because Electric is a very poorly represented type early.

[Felicity]

Shinx is actually earned - and yet not everybody chooses to play arcade games to have enough coins for it. It's a perfect event Pokemon whose rivals are Pichu, Electrike, and ....still Pachirisu because Electric is a very poorly represented type early.

I'd say this is quite good. What with the later acquisition of emolga. As discussed in the Axe thread though, Tnamo would be quite good early on, but that's going off topic.

[Azeria]

Shinx is actually earned - and yet not everybody chooses to play arcade games to have enough coins for it. It's a perfect event Pokemon whose rivals are Pichu, Electrike, and ....still Pachirisu because Electric is a very poorly represented type early.

I'm still wondering why Elekid and Magmar are so late. I mean they're extremely good at the point where they were available before but by the time you're at Calcenon you could have Arcanine and Ninetales along with the fire starters and they completely outclass Magmar and you have Eelektross who outclasses Electabuzz in everyway besides speed. Why not have them available after Noel/Radomus it would be rather late and at level 5-20 you'd spend quite some time leveling them up to actually use them.

[Personthing]

I'm still wondering why Elekid and Magmar are so late. I mean they're extremely good at the point where they were available before but by the time you're at Calcenon you could have Arcanine and Ninetales along with the fire starters and they completely outclass Magmar and you have Eelektross who outclasses Electabuzz in everyway besides speed. why not have them available after Noel/Radomus it would be rather late and at level 5-20 you'd spend quite some time leveling them up to actually use them.

I do agree that Elekid and Magby should come earlier. Maybe you could find Elekid around Shade's gym (only after Shelly has been beaten), and Magby in Pyrous Mountain? I feel both the areas and the timing would make sense for these two Pokemon. As it stands now, they come waaaay too late.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Felicity]

Mmk, this is digressing into the Axe topic which was ended for a reason. Back on topic, still no refutation for how option B gives more choice/options to play to everybody over option A

[Gaunt]

Mmk, this is digressing into the Axe topic which was ended for a reason. Back on topic, still no refutation for how option B gives more choice/options to play to everybody over option A

??? It does give more options but it doesn't "satisfy" everyone (and by that i mean the majority that chose the option A)

[Personthing]

??? It does give more options but it doesn't "satisfy" everyone (and by that i mean the majority that chose the option A)

More options = the ability to satisfy more people. Since common candies are a thing, if levels were raised people who like to grind can grind. People who don't like to grind can skip it for the most part, but still get rewarded for doing side quests.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Felicity]

??? It does give more options but it doesn't "satisfy" everyone (and by that i mean the majority that chose the option A)

Most chose that for reasons that were addressed by Ame or because they do enjoy grinding. And you yourself have said you can't satisfy everyone.

Also whilst ideally levels will be raised, I do recognise that they won't be completely gifted to us.

[Yash]

I think the same two aspects come into play again and again and further discussion on the same points isn't really going to yield results.. What needs to be done is find a middle ground.. Depending on the pokemon and it's evolution stage its level can be decided.. Again this should totally be on a case by case basis.. We really can't have a general formula applied here since the quest will differ and the situation will change accordingly..

I personally feel that a middle option is needed that can meet the requirements of both groups to a certain extent.. Like a level 30 piplup doesn't make sense to me since it should have evolved with the trainer(since he thought it was useless it should in fact try and evolve on its own to better itself), but having a growlithe at 30 would definitely be fine, specially considering that it anyways needs a firestone to evolve and the pokemon of the other officers are in a similar level..

[dondon151]

Ame has repeatedly said that diversity in usage is a goal. Repel immediately suggests that wild Pokemon shouldn't exist - let alone be considered for usage.

How is this a logical conclusion? Repels exist in all of the main series games along with more abundant grassy areas and higher encounter rates. Does this mean that wild Pokemon shouldn't exist in the main series games?

Repel introduces an option. Options are good. Players who want wild Pokemon can look for them. Players who don't want to waste their own time can use Repels and ignore them. Contrast this with if wild Pokemon simply didn't exist; players who want wild Pokemon are SOL. Or if Repels didn't exist, the players who don't want to waste their time are SOL (would you tell them to suck it up and deal with the time lost from wild Pokemon encounters?). This is analogous to the current debate over event Pokemon; we should seek to maximize options instead of jumping to silly conclusions.

Some people legitimately don't care to look up locations of Pokemon on the guide and thus the wild Pokemon already have an uphill battle to climb for attention. Event Pokemon that are immediately better further discourages exploration and use of wilds because these Pokemon will eventually have egg moves and without a grind or some sort of drawback, will be a no brainer for most trainers. The developers preference here outweighs diversity and hurts the game accomplishing this goal later on.

I don't understand this, either. Wild Pokemon are ubiquitous. The player is certain to encounter wild Pokemon over the course of playing the game. Event Pokemon, on the other hand, are almost always off the beaten path. You may not cite guide reliance as a reason why wild Pokemon are more difficult to obtain while ignoring that event Pokemon often require a guide to find, let alone to obtain (or a huge time investment in exploration). In my playthroughs of the game, I have never once found Teddiursa, Zangoose, Electrike, Whismur, etc. The only reason I know how to get them is because I've read the Pokemon locations guide.

A Grind may be discouraging, but it's completely avoidable which helps earlier Pokemon see more use as they would be outclassed later in the game. This -HELPS- the goal of diversity. Theres nothing stopping one but themselves when it comes to grinding. If you want the Pokemon for use - it's there for the taking. You just have to choose to work with it or keep your current team.

Grinding detracts from the goal of diversity. Reborn doesn't promote diversity by forcing the player to use a team of shitty Pokemon for the entire duration of the game. The entire reason why "good" or popular Pokemon are pushed back so far into the game is so that players are incentivized to use poorer or less popular Pokemon for the substantial opening portion of the game. So now that we're already 75% of the way through the game, is there really a point to further incentivize the player to use shitty Pokemon when the game demands progressively more from a team? No! If we've already forced the player to not use Electabuzz for 75% of the game, is there any reason to require a 50-level grind just so he can use Electabuzz for 25% of the game?

Furthermore, there are plenty of strong Pokemon that are available early on in the game that crowd out later joiners. In that thread where a user complained that Reborn didn't have obtainable legendaries, one user rebutted with a lengthy list of obtainable Pokemon that were actually good. So an event Pokemon obtainable in the latter half of the game is not going to automatically oust a supposedly poorer party member. I mean, yeah, Seaking is probably fucked, but at this point in the game I can already have my starter, a Gardevoir, a Conkeldurr, a Galvantula, a Krookodile, etc.

There's nothing stopping one but himself when it comes to using a high-level event Pokemon despite preferring to raise a low-level event Pokemon - literally. A time commitment problem exists outside of player psychology; not wanting to use a high-level event Pokemon purely because of a personal preference is a problem that exists purely within player psychology.

Edited March 22, 2015 by dondon151

[NickCrash]

In regards to Elekid and Magby, changing them to Electrabuzz and Magmar solves this problem, but goes against all those not wanting pre-evolved pokemon.

Also to answer to Dobby, yes Tropius sucks, no Scrafty>>Hariyama, the Mismagius case is pretty much unresolved because it and Cofagrigus fill different roles, and yes I was surprized to see Drillbur in packs. I think I said that the event pokemon are generally better, having Galvantula, as opposed to all the electric ones already available, Sableye for obvious reasons, Rotom as well, etc

I feel we're recycling arguments at this point, so.. [/thread] ?

[Gaunt]

More options = the ability to satisfy more people. Since common candies are a thing, if levels were raised people who like to grind can grind. People who don't like to grind can skip it for the most part, but still get rewarded for doing side quests.

Those options (well one option) negate my (and the majority of people who voted) ability to have fun (as we want) i explained this already, the whole argument is getting repetitive people, sure some concessions and some middle ground can be found but finding unevolved mons of level 50+ is just ridiculous and please don't repeat that it happens in the original games because i don't like that either.

[Kithros]

Those options (well one option) negate my (and the majority of people who voted) ability to have fun (as we want) i explained this already, the whole argument is getting repetitive people, sure some concessions and some middle ground can be found but finding unevolved mons of level 50+ is just ridiculous and please don't repeat that it happens in the original games because i don't like that either.

I have yet to see anyone complain on the forums about Ametrine Cave having level 50 wild spheals - and if wild pokemon can be ridiculously high leveled unevolved pokemon, then is it really such a big stretch that someone caught a level 50 wild pokemon and then traded it off without ever training it?

I mean, if having level 50 unevolved pokemon is such a huge concern then there should be complaints about it in practically every high level area in the game, because there are high leveled unevolved pokemon basically everywhere that there's high level wild pokemon.

[Personthing]

Those options (well one option) negate my (and the majority of people who voted) ability to have fun (as we want) i explained this already, the whole argument is getting repetitive people, sure some concessions and some middle ground can be found but finding unevolved mons of level 50+ is just ridiculous and please don't repeat that it happens in the original games because i don't like that either.

Unevolved Pokemon above level 50 are all over the place in Reborn. Just run around Route 1, Route 3, Route 4, and Ametrine Cave and you'll see plenty of unevolved Pokemon above level 50. Think about it like this. What if a player just can't beat Charlotte? How do you think they'd feel if their only option of continuing the game is catching a level 30 Spheal or two (or heatproof bronzor) and training them to level 60+, especially when the Pokemon they would be able to find give piss poor experience or OHKO the Spheal? I would be far from surprised if they decided to quit, or start a new file. (If you think that would be the proper way to go about things, you are dead wrong) Having higher level'd Pokemon (Both wild and event) allows for much more experimentation with different Pokemon, (which promotes diversity!) as you'd have to commit way less time to see if you like the Pokemon and if it will keep a spot on your team.

Sentimental attachment to forced grinding should not be allowed to cause the game's quality to suffer.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[dondon151]

Man, Mighty Kamina is on point.

This argument isn't getting repetitive from my perspective - everything that I included in my previous post is something that I haven't brought up before. It does seem to be getting repetitive from the opposing perspective, because I keep seeing arguments about infringement on player enjoyment (which has been countered) and lack of realism or sense (which has been countered).

Also to answer to Dobby, yes Tropius sucks, no Scrafty>>Hariyama, the Mismagius case is pretty much unresolved because it and Cofagrigus fill different roles, and yes I was surprized to see Drillbur in packs.

Makuhita is still better than Pancham, though, which is also an event Pokemon. Scraggy is a very strong Pokemon in-game almost solely because of Moxie.

EDIT: As far as what would be an acceptable level, I think that, for example, a L50 event Pokemon in an area of the game where the expected team level is L60 is kind of the minimum as far as what I would consider acceptable. A halfway compromise between L10 and L60 (so L35) is still too low, and the difference will only grow as the game progresses.

Edited March 22, 2015 by dondon151

[NickCrash]

The issue is that canon games usually have you at E4 when you reach the 50s and 60s, so Reborn is currently struggling with dealing with the problem.

Pancham is not an event pokemon. It's location opens after running up and down in the subway, in a similar way like Hypno's and Mawile's.

The arguments are getting repetitive from both sides, and are working as subsequent counters. You may not see it, but it is there.

The debate here is mostly on event pokemon. Please keep it there. For me, it is normal for wild ones to rise, as the story progresses, plus it helps with grinding.

[Gaunt]

Unevolved Pokemon above level 50 are all over the place in Reborn. Just run around Route 1, Route 3, Route 4, and Ametrine Cave and you'll see plenty of unevolved Pokemon above level 50. Think about it like this. What if a player just can't beat Charlotte? How do you think they'd feel if their only option of continuing the game is catching a level 30 Spheal or two (or heatproof bronzor) and training them to level 60+, especially when the Pokemon they would be able to find give piss poor experience. I would be far from surprised if they decided to quit, or start a new file. Having higher level'd Pokemon (Both wild and event) Allow for much more experimentation with Pokemon, as you'd have to commit way less time to see if you like the Pokemon and if it will keep a spot on your team.

Beside the fact that there are many strategies (with different Pokemon) for beating the Gym Leaders so it doesn't always mean you have to grind (much at least) we (again) return to the "problem" of grinding, some users (a minority) find it really annoying and some (a majority) doesn't care or even like it. So if there is the "need" of a middle ground i can understand some "without evolution" event Pokemon at higher levels near the later parts of the game (wait those are already there, problem solved) but not the unevolved forms.

Yes repetitive...i'm out...for now at least.