Support Squad Felicity Posted March 22, 2015 Support Squad Share Posted March 22, 2015 Those options (well one option) negate my (and the majority of people who voted) ability to have fun (as we want) i explained this already, the whole argument is getting repetitive people, sure some concessions and some middle ground can be found but finding unevolved mons of level 50+ is just ridiculous and please don't repeat that it happens in the original games because i don't like that either. You don't like a genuine point and evidence being given? I already stated earlier, there are trainers with NFE pokemon that should have evolved into at least their next stage at that point. Furthermore, as Kamina and Dondon have said there are plenty of wild NFE pokemon to find. Oh look, evidence IN GAME, as well as the prior mentioned examples in the anime EDIT: What were the genuine numbers for people who enjoyed grinding and didn't just hae concerns such as Heart scales issues? Gaunt is making it sound like it's 50 to 25 on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Hey Dondon, at least we agree on Makuhita outclassing Pancham! Seriously, I wouldn't mind the following two options - instead of Spheal, we encounter Sealeo in the wild. - lower the levels of wild pre evos that are being introduced in the game, and throw in evolved pokemon from lines encountered earlier to maintain the ability to grind in the area. When the poll was closed it was 44 people for A 23 other options. The poll was pretty lopsided and because of that poll Ame is in that hole as a designer. Grind may be bad design, but it would seem by vote that it's -wanted- bad design. I think this thread has served it's purpose. It's the same people arguing the same thing and it's getting cyclical on both sides. This is Ame's rodeo so I'm not /threading myself, but the Polls up and most people are pro grind regardless of their opinion being refutable or not. The next step is do we keep that result with integrity while still addressing and fixing related problems. This -should- be closed at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 OK Imma weigh in on this one last time. I think trainer's SHOULD have to grind their pokemon (Option A), but there needs to be more grind friendly situations. I do particularly like this idea. Hilda: - lower the levels of wild pre evos that are being introduced in the game, and throw in evolved pokemon from lines encountered earlier to maintain the ability to grind in the area. As an example see Beedrill in Jasper Ward. That worked out rather nicely in my opinion. Magcargo in Pyrous mountain were also good. Perhaps more areas like the Grand Hall in the manner that there are daily rebattlable trainers. That change each day. I do have one idea, in many main series games there'd be the one trainer in like half the pokemon centers that will battle you once a day. Throw those in perhaps. Daily thing. Also, see ORAS TV Reporter Gabby and what's his face, who you can go around battling to your hearts content. These are just some things that could make grinding not quite so painfully tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I think we can hold a think tank for fixing grinding - but first Ame has to be willing to hand that one over to us. Knowing her vote, I don't know if she particularly cares about that situation either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm still on the pro grind side of things, but as I mentioned many times before, something needs to be done to make it not so tedious. There just needs to be better Pokemon to grind on and as Jericho said Beedrill is a perfect example of this. I remember grinding off Beedrill many times (even up to Shade) because they weren't too hard to kill, but really gave out a lot of experience as well as you can fight them right outside a Pokemon Center. Maybe making Audino a common, high-level, and easy to find Pokemon wouldn't be such a bad idea. Rebattable trainers already exist and they are being abused to grind (probably mostly for money) so why_not make it a bit easier on them by finding more convenient methods to implement them. As for grinding as a whole, it may feel like a waste of time in theory, but it's not. Personally, whenever I know I'm going to have to grind, I reevaluate my team and decide which ones can stay and which ones I should kick off to spend a little extra time to raise. If you take away the grinding by raising the event Pokemon's level that much, I'd probably just have three main Pokemon and just keep slapping a few new Pokemon each gym to exploit their weaknesses (I may or may not have done this with a Cottonee many times). Basically, all I'm saying is to trim the fat, but keep a bit of forced grinding in the game. It has worked well so far but I feel it does get a little tedious due to the lack of decent grind spots or methods. As for those low-level Pokemon, a lot of them do need raised up a bunch of levels despite logic, but not to the point where you can use them almost off the bat. Knock 'em down a few levels than what you're ideal is along with better grinding and I'd say it would be the best of both worlds. To give an example, I'd say Tepig should be level 34 instead of 15 to see him be used more, not necessarily 42 because I'd be willing to use him then despite the little bit of grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 34 isn't a level -i'm- willing to give to something like tepig or piplup. I want to see learnsets- so a concession with two evo mons would be like Level 20 - 25 This needs to be more case by case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 34 isn't a level -i'm- willing to give to something like tepig or piplup. I want to see learnsets- so a concession with two evo mons would be like Level 20 - 25 This needs to be more case by case. Let me ask you this: have you ever used that event Tepig in any run through of the game? If you have, was it more than once? I'm more arguing for a median where more people would consider using it, but there'd still need some work to put in before it can be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Amethyst Posted March 23, 2015 Author Administrators Share Posted March 23, 2015 Although on principle of design, I do still pretty strongly agree with the 'B' side of things, When the poll was closed it was 44 people for A 23 other options. The poll was pretty lopsided and because of that poll Ame is in that hole as a designer. Grind may be bad design, but it would seem by vote that it's -wanted- bad design. This is something I'm having to accept. If this weren't a fangame my answer would be different, but it has occurred to me that Pokemon players come into this with expectations from an already-established series meaning we've drawn an audience that by and large sees these things as a positive. To be frank, Pokemon, as a series, is ripe with bad design, and the changes we would have to make to Reborn to fix that are significant enough that it would disrupt the playing experience of an apparently large part of our playerbase. The original goal of reducing grinding was conceived in relative ignorance to this problem, and the false expectation that grinding was nearly universally hated. I will be forced to adapt that goal to something like 'not requiring grinding to complete the main story'. This leaves sidequests in tact for players who enjoy the slow-and-steady route. That said, having read through the rest of the feedback here, I will be making some changes to our practice. For instance the reason we don't have many rebattlable trainers is because in the past my thought was that nobody should have to stop and deal with them in the main-story, and that it was only an issue between episodes. This appears to not be the case, so I'll explore options to make grinding easier, such as following the Beedrill model where possible, some trainers, and I already have changes slated to get the Exp Share earlier and the Lucky Egg in the game. Also, see ORAS TV Reporter Gabby and what's his face, who you can go around battling to your hearts content. These are just some things that could make grinding not quite so painfully tedious. I'm a fan of this too, but it's only pracical once the player has Fly. Anyway, regarding events I have probably been remiss in not making clearer from the start that this never applied to all events in the first place so the case-by-case thing is somewhat inherent. I -was- intending to adopt the winning result as a guideline to make exceptions from, but following this thread my new intended guideline will be to vary the reward levels somewhat significantly- Some low, some medium, some almost-ready-to-go, with the less popular Pokemon or harder events being closer to the ready-to-go category anyhow. Hopefully there can be something for each side in that paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 While there's no way you're going to please everyone, that sounds like a fairly safe step towards doing your best I really do think the best solution is not to remove the need for grinding alltogether, but to make grinding easier/more interesting *Points back to where she recommended making grinding faster when you do it strategically* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Anyway, regarding events I have probably been remiss in not making clearer from the start that this never applied to all events in the first place so the case-by-case thing is somewhat inherent. I -was- intending to adopt the winning result as a guideline to make exceptions from, but following this thread my new intended guideline will be to vary the reward levels somewhat significantly- Some low, some medium, some almost-ready-to-go, with the less popular Pokemon or harder events being closer to the ready-to-go category anyhow. Hopefully there can be something for each side in that paradigm. That is a fair compromise. Like Corsola could be level 30 or so on Apophyll (since it's basically useless), where as a Zubat if it were in the same area would be like level 5. I can respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Talking about Zubat in the same area as corsola is cruel. I'm still mad at Azery for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Talking about Zubat in the same area as corsola is cruel. I'm still mad at Azery for that. It'd still be before Kiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I KNOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunt Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 It feels good to see everything resolved when you wake up, not everyone will like it (from both sides) but it's an improvement i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yash Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think this makes sense.. Having a range would definitely help cater to both sides.. Just to have an idea of what to expect, I'd like to know around what level can we expect pokemon like Beldum, Mudkip or Tepig for that matter.. Considering that our team is level 55+ when we can get beldum it would warrant a higher level than 1 for the mon... Specially considering how difficult it is to get it.. I mean seriously.. Who rides a bull up a bunch of stairs?? Considering that it evolves at 20 and then 45 it does get tricky.. Again that is -if- you want to change the level for beldum, considering it's a psuedo.. I guess a compromise for piplup could be between 30-40.. The problem is that both sets are gonna be unhappy about it but if we have easier grinding it should make up to a certain extent.. Another option that came to my mind was having two rewards, maybe an egg and a higher levelled one.. That way we can choose which of the two we want.. This makes both sides happy.. It can fit logically into the plot as well.. The trainer put it in the daycare since he didn't want to train it, and ended up getting an egg and the piplup at a really high level.. This is just for piplup.. Other event mons would have different solutions.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Another option that came to my mind was having two rewards, maybe an egg and a higher levelled one.. That way we can choose which of the two we want.. This makes both sides happy.. It can fit logically into the plot as well.. The trainer put it in the daycare since he didn't want to train it, and ended up getting an egg and the piplup at a really high level.. This is just for piplup.. Other event mons would have different solutions.. I'm not a programmer, but I can already tell you that ain't even worth the effort as breeding exists which does the same thing with just five minutes added onto it. As for Beldum, that is one I kind of want to see stay at level 1 just for the nostalgia (or level 100). I won't complain if it's level 50 though because I did kind of request something like that in previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Squad Felicity Posted March 23, 2015 Support Squad Share Posted March 23, 2015 Beldum is to be honest fine at 1. Metagross has, being a pseudo, the highest BST we can get in the game bar Slaking. That kinda makes giving it to us at even 20 kinda ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 To be fair, there is approximately zero difference between a Pokemon obtainable at L1 and L20 because a single lategame opponent Pokemon can probably give enough EXP to go from L1 to L20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 To be fair, there is approximately zero difference between a Pokemon obtainable at L1 and L20 because a single lategame opponent Pokemon can probably give enough EXP to go from L1 to L20. Because only the late game is being considered. Don't tell me that when facing Corey, that there's no difference between a pokemon obtained at level 1, vs a pokemon obtained at level 20. Some people actually replay the game. There are still new people deciding to play this game each day. Finally you have to consider eventually it's going to be released as a completed game. Zero difference is a complete load a bologna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Dude, you are the master of missing context. Beldum can't be obtained until the player has access to Route 1. The wild Tauros are L52 and I think there's a trainer in Radomus's gym with a L57 Sigilyph. If Reborn is still using the gen 5 EXP formula, and I'm pretty sure it is, a L1 Beldum gains 6340 EXP from switch training against the Sigilyph, which elevates it from L1 to L17. Edited March 24, 2015 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 To be fair, there is approximately zero difference between a Pokemon obtainable at L1 and L20 because a single lategame opponent Pokemon can probably give enough EXP to go from L1 to L20. This is the first time I think I actually agree with you XD. I actually don't think it matters what level Beldum is now that I think about it. It's a pain to get so it's either gonna be A) a collectable or B ) something you're really going out of your way to actually use. Most people are gonna be in the A categoery so having him up at a higher level would be more of a convenience. I mean getting it to level 45 is the real pain in grinding it because once it gets those stats you can level it up kind of quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'd be inclined to agree with Pokemon being LV 1 being nearly LV 20 due to experience gains later in the game... Which is exactly why that isn't really an issue that is of concern. You literally save yourself only one switch train KO to get your Beldum from 1 to 17 (and I believe the opponent may have other Pokemon.) The -easy- route for Ame is to leave Beldum where it is. Metagross doesn't have a problem finding use -because- of the generous EXP gain, along with the fact that it's a Metagross. There isn't really a tangible need to change Beldum's level here if experience gain is no issue from 1 - 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Right, the bigger differences are levels between 20 and 60. So in the case where the estimated party level is L60, I think effectively the categories boil down to: - Low-leveled Pokemon (L1 to L25) - Mid-leveled Pokemon (L26 to L40) - High-leveled Pokemon (L41 to L50) - Good-to-go Pokemon (L51 to L60) Edited March 24, 2015 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 At this point in the game sure that's fine. But obviously that depends on which part of the game you're in. I did miss the context of Beldum before, but you can't say that the scale you put there holds constant throughout the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunt Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Uhm i thought the discussion was already over...can we really discuss levels here or is it just "speculation" from now on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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