Does Fern Redeem Himself? Possible Spoilers

[Felicity]

But where exactly does it mention that the player is "good"? I for one see the whole "fight against Team Meteor" thing as helping my friends, get to the next badge or sometimes even coincidence (as we can see with the Pulse Clawitzer) and (like i said) i want Fern dead because he irritates me not because he's a terrorist (still that doesn't really help to improve people opinion on him), if he was good to everyone (but me) i still would hate him but that's not really the case.

Well, you typically help out not only your friends but Pretty much random strangers too. Look at all the side-quests assuming you're nice enough to go out of your way for X reason. Such as finding the police or helping the little kid in Agate.

[Gaunt]

Well, you typically help out not only your friends but Pretty much random strangers too. Look at all the side-quests assuming you're nice enough to go out of your way for X reason. Such as finding the police or helping the little kid in Agate.

Exactly, that's assuming you're actually nice. On this note we totally need more "evil" side quests (maybe some more gang activity?)

[LilyNadesico]

You know what, guys? Fern kinda reminds me of Draco Malfoy from the Harry Potter series, when I look at it this way.

Sure, Draco was a huge jerk, but when the chips were down, Draco could talk the talk, but he couldn't walk the walk. He just didn't have what it took to be actually evil. I guess time will tell whether Fern is the same, or if he will slide in actual villainy.

[Cyclonegale]

Well. We also, as the player, have the potential to steal a t.v from a public area. Break into people's homes. And inadvertently drove a man to suicide from our actions.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Cyclonegale

[Antilegend]

And again it seems that someone thinks joining a Terrorist Group is ok. In response to you: we're talking about a videogame here not real life. If i counted all the people i "killed" in my games it would probably amount to several millions (if not more) and i'll be a mass murderer (together with 95% of the gamers).

You're taking my words out of context. I never said that joining Team Meteor was acceptable, I suggested that Fern may be suffering from a mental disorder that has led him down the path he's starting to take. From the moment you met him, he's been aggressive and antagonistic to the player for no inherent reason other than to be antagonistic. Looking at behaviors like this subjectively, it looks to be the case. I'll, of course, redact any statements I make should he contribute to any sort of terrorist attack in the game, but as of right now, he's absolved of any crime. It's not a crime to be an asshole, and people wishing him to die a death for nothing more than being aggressive is ludicrous.

For your second statement, I agree that we're playing a video game. A video game where it's VERY heavily suggested that real-life mental and social issues are very prominent among the characters. Cain's pansexuality, Amaria's depression, Adrienn's unwillingness to conform to social gender norms, etc. are all examples that many people struggle with today, and this game could very well be a medium that not only Amethyst, but those who help her develop this game, try to use to help try and bring these issues to light in their own small way. Why can Fern's potential mental disorder be dismissed where the others are embraced?

I like your line of thinking. Especially considering that Fern is right now together with a certain Doctor Connall and his Electivire. That would be an awesome plot twist.

Anyway. Fern is a well-done annoying character, Blake is an awesomely-done sonova character, and the Doctor is a beyond awesome good intentions/horrible results character. I can't see redemption for the sake of redemption.

Oh, almost certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some dialouge between the two to cement their working relationship. Dr. Connal could very well be based off of real-life doctors, such as Dr. Jack Kervorkian. Interestingly, in the Beryl graveyard, there's a tombstone for an "Elizabeth Connal", which in the terms of the game itself, it's likely that this is either a close relative, spouse, or child of the doctor. Could it be likely that the death of this person has led him to more extreme lengths of trying to better the world? Could his previous failure as a doctor caused the death of this person and led him to try and take more extreme measures to ensure failure will never happen again?

But where exactly does it mention that the player is "good"? I for one see the whole "fight against Team Meteor" thing as helping my friends, get to the next badge or sometimes even coincidence (as we can see with the Pulse Clawitzer) and (like i said) i want Fern dead because he irritates me not because he's a terrorist (still that doesn't really help to improve people opinion on him), if he was good to everyone (but me) i still would hate him but that's not really the case.

You mentioned before that I thought it was OK for him joining a terrorist group, but you contradict yourself here saying that joining a terrorist organization is essentially inconsequential, and that you want him dead because he's irritating. This doesn't, and shouldn't, warrant the death of a character. You go on to mention later that "evil" quests would be a welcome thought to the game, assuming that the character we play is just as morally bankrupt as the character you're wishing death upon.

So, where do we draw the line in the sand? Does joining a gang and doing "evil" quests put us on an elevated plane above Fern's actions because we're on a quest for gym badges? Are we better than Fern?

I'll state this again: Fern is an antagonistic prick, and nothing more. A minor nuiscance detracting you from accomplishing set goals and distracting you from who the real antagonists are. He doesn't deserve as much credence as many people give him. Villains in this game, such as Lin, Solaris, and Blake are guilty of far worse crimes thus far and their brutality goes largely unnoticed because Fern hurt our feelings.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Antilegend

[Vinny]

Will read everything, promise. And will edit this later. But something, real quick:

Why can Fern's potential mental disorder be dismissed where the others are embraced?

If i find the post, i'll link it here, but: I remember a mention that Fern always been an asshole. No traumatic event, no dark past, no... nothing. He's just an asshole because he can be one.

This doesn't make your post invalid or anything, far from it. I just wanted to mention that.

EDIT:

Interestingly, in the Beryl graveyard, there's a tombstone for an "Elizabeth Connal", which in the terms of the game itself, it's likely that this is either a close relative, spouse, or child of the doctor. Could it be likely that the death of this person has led him to more extreme lengths of trying to better the world?

To an extent, but not... exactly. IIRC, Elizabeth was his sister, and she could be saved with the controversial electroshock therapy. Unfortunately, the use of such methods were not allowed. It's the reason why Dr. Sigmund is so keen with the "shock therapy".

As for "death to fern or riot" thing, i'm not going to comment. To quote (In a way) Secundum: "Fern's "apparitions" were so sporadic, that i actually forgot he even existed for a while."

I always took the people wanting to kill Fern as a joke, but this is certainly... different.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Vinny

[HakuTaku]

Nah, in the end i believe fern will get trown in jail. I don't necessarily would like to see him die.

[Antilegend]

To an extent, but not... exactly. IIRC, Elizabeth was his sister, and she could be saved with the controversial electroshock therapy. Unfortunately, the use of such methods were not allowed. It's the reason why Dr. Sigmund is so keen with the "shock therapy".

Very interesting. I left it open to speculation; I wasn't sure who this person was. If it was mentioned somewhere in the game, regrettably, I did not remember. Dr. Connal's character is an interesting one, I'm excited for future development of the character.

If i find the post, i'll link it here, but: I remember a mention that Fern always been an asshole. No traumatic event, no dark past, no... nothing. He's just an asshole because he can be one.

This doesn't make your post invalid or anything, far from it. I just wanted to mention that.

Interesting. This actually furthers my theory that there is something very unstable with Fern mentally. Often, many mental disorders can be galvanized by trauma experienced during childhood or adolescents that carry on into adulthood, but NPD isn't necessarily caused by that, as the etiology of the disorder isn't currently known. Many possible theories that contribute to the disorder do relate back to parenting styles and childhood experiences, but the research to this date is inconclusive. If you're interested in reading on NPD more, there's a peer-reviewed abstract found here:

http://www.health.am/psy/narcissistic-personality-disorder/

To add onto this, there's also a theory that there's a physical abnormality in the brain with those afflicted with NPD. To quote Traci Pedersen, author specializing in psychology, science, and health, and using the Journal of Psychiatric Research as a source: "Researchers have found that people with narcissistic personality disorder have less gray matter in the left anterior insula, a region of the brain linked to empathy, compassion, emotional regulation, and cognitive functioning."

More from her source can be found here, which is the peer-reviewed Journal of Psychiatric Research:

http://www.journals.elsevier.com/journal-of-psychiatric-research/

Assuming Fern is roughly the same age as our character, it could be said that his disorder is starting to fully manifest as the game progesses. His growing ambition is starting to show, such as taking actions of joining Team Meteor, whom he perceives as "winners" and pushing for a direction he deems acceptable.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Antilegend

[Ghost]

The only thing Fern did well was put that Pokemon anime reference of "Fern was here. ____ is a loser". I laughed for days.

But other than that he needs to get shanked.

[PsychoticPudu]

imagine there is a point in the game where the guy saves a skitty from stuff

now

is he redeemed from suffering in hell?

[Gaunt]

You're taking my words out of context. I never said that joining Team Meteor was acceptable but as of right now, he's absolved of any crime.

You mentioned before that I thought it was OK for him joining a terrorist group, but you contradict yourself here saying that joining a terrorist organization is essentially inconsequential, and that you want him dead because he's irritating. This doesn't, and shouldn't, warrant the death of a character. You go on to mention later that "evil" quests would be a welcome thought to the game, assuming that the character we play is just as morally bankrupt as the character you're wishing death upon. So, where do we draw the line in the sand? Does joining a gang and doing "evil" quests put us on an elevated plane above Fern's actions because we're on a quest for gym badges? Are we better than Fern?

1) Absolved of any crime? Really? This may be a surprise to you but joining a terrorist group is a crime in itself (doesn't matter if you actually do something bad)

2) It is inconsequential, to me that is, because i want him dead regardless, for other people it's different so no contradiction here. In your opinion being an offensive jerk does not warrant the death of a character in my it does, everyone plays and feels in different ways.

P.S.

Your idea of him having a mental disorder is interesting but as of now (in game or irl) there is no suggestion/hint that it might be true and no being an asshole is not a hint, plenty of "normal" people like that.

[Masquerain]

imagine there is a point in the game where the guy saves a skitty from stuff

now

is he redeemed from suffering in hell?

I dare say 1 small good deed would not redeem him. At this point, the best outcome for him I can see is dying for the greater good or dying due to consequences from the choices he made. And if he doesn't die but remains an asshole, that's fine too. The only thing that'd look really "lolwat?" to me is he'd magically be redeemed out of the blue without even a build-up to it

[Antilegend]

1) Absolved of any crime? Really? This may be a surprise to you but joining a terrorist group is a crime in itself (doesn't matter if you actually do something bad)

2) It is inconsequential, to me that is, because i want him dead regardless, for other people it's different so no contradiction here. In your opinion being an offensive jerk does not warrant the death of a character in my it does, everyone plays and feels in different ways.

P.S.

Your idea of him having a mental disorder is interesting but as of now (in game or irl) there is no suggestion/hint that it might be true and no being an asshole is not a hint, plenty of "normal" people like that.

Well, my prior post shows the symptoms required to fit Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Fern meets the criteria in spades. In a game where people suffer from suicidal tendencies, depression, and other mental health issues of the like, I found it likely that Fern could fall into a category of his own. Just because the game doesn't come right out and say "Yo, Fern's fucked in the head" doesn't mean it isn't plausible.

To each their own, I suppose.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Antilegend

[Hypa]

from pokemon to harry potter ..... whew

still arguably what Terra did could be considered worse than fern xD she fed miss information and crap and was a gym leader which is supposed to be a trust able position but i forgive her for everything she did because she is terra she is just too lovable

[Mint_Spaghetti]

My guess is Fern will either pussy out at the end and help the player in some way and tell him something along the lines "see? I am the top dog" and leave just to save his own pride (but ultimately do good) or he'll be part of the Meteor team. I think Ame might make Fern's eventual outcome a player choice though.

[laggless01]

About T3RR4WR...if she didn't direct you in the wrong way (to ametrine), wouldn't all those people have died of starvation? Give it a thought...
Fern could have a disorder, yes...but a diagnosis has to assure that symptoms aren't there due to something else (like another disorder, for example...), so I'd like to wait with that. In the meantime, I'd like to re-enact the 'Matters maketh the man'-scene out of a certain recent movie, with fern as the gang. I don't want him dead, too much blood has already spilled. In-game, I would want to know what Florinia will do, since almost no-one has given attention to that. I hope we see her soon.

[Xiri]

About T3RR4WR...if she didn't direct you in the wrong way (to ametrine), wouldn't all those people have died of starvation? Give it a thought...

Fern could have a disorder, yes...but a diagnosis has to assure that symptoms aren't there due to something else (like another disorder, for example...), so I'd like to wait with that. In the meantime, I'd like to re-enact the 'Matters maketh the man'-scene out of a certain recent movie, with fern as the gang. I don't want him dead, too much blood has already spilled. In-game, I would want to know what Florinia will do, since almost no-one has given attention to that. I hope we see her soon.

She's probably bound to appear again (I hope she 'appears', and not just be 'mentioned') because we still don't' clearly know the trouble between Florinia and Titania.

[Masquerain]

Well as of now Terra is supposed to be "stuck" , but I'm sure we'll see both her and Florinia again, given that Fern involved himself with the meteors, also maybe we'll see Serra again as well since her own son needs a big spanking too

P.S. does anyone know how to put text in spoiler tags? :I

[Aurorain]

Well as of now Terra is supposed to be "stuck" , but I'm sure we'll see both her and Florinia again, given that Fern involved himself with the meteors, also maybe we'll see Serra again as well since her own son needs a big spanking too

P.S. does anyone know how to put text in spoiler tags? :I

Put it between

[/ spoiler](don't include that space) tags.

And I for one love Terra as a character, lol. She's basically the result of the internet fused together inside of a hot performer. But, she even out-Cain's Cain, and that's.....hard to pull off.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Aurorain

[Masquerain]

Put it between

[/ spoiler](don't include that space) tags.

And I for one love Terra as a character, lol. She's basically the result of the internet fused together inside of a hot performer. But, she even out-Cain's Cain, and that's.....hard to pull off.

I'm actually really annoyed by her speech xD I've always hated -that- part of the internet and Terra embodies literally everything from it :I

P.S. thanks for the info!

[Zane0144]

That awkward moment when you have exactly 5 of those

People don't redeem themselves when they die. That's just some sellout BS Hollywood is trying to say. Just because someone commits suicide or has a single moment of altruism, it doesn't mean that his personality fits this trait and all of it was just hidden from us. Their actions, and here crimes, reflect who they really were. The same can occur of course.

People tend to believe that someone is "forgiven" or "changes" or is "redeemed" when they die, and this is a social phenomenon that I think I've explained well enough. The number of people knowing the person before he (let's call it a he) died can vary. Knowing someone does not necessarily mean that they are close to someone. They might have just heard about this person's accomplishments (because let's face it, he has to have done something to be known) or seen them, or even having been close enough to participate in them, directly or indirectly. Usually the image people have about this person is the one projected by the media covering them with interviews and articles, or in our case, the way the author presents him to us. They may want us to love him or hate him. This changes, not based on their character - as this remains the same - but from their actions.

Here's where the two major examples come. Let us take Saphira as a first. She is cool, intimidating, hot, and has a strong sense of protecting her loved ones. Saphira probably had an unpleasant upbringing, having to deal with Dr. Connal and also take her siblings away from him, and thus formed a hard-to-approach personality. Having an incident by the lake, Saphira decides to go all out and kill everyone in her path, justifying her actions by saying that all she does is in order to protect her family. The way I see it, is that she -likes- destroying and killing things (probably a trait she received from the doctor), as it is clear that her way was not the only one to acheive her goal. She could fortify the house and buy enough time to fly the others to a safe distance. On the contrary she kills any Meteor on the lake. Let's mention that the Meteors there were defenseless. They were swimming to get across. The premise was clear, the actions even clearer and the whole thing passed on as something "Meteors deserve because they are the bad guys". I wonder what Charlotte would say in this situation.

Then we have our other premium example, my dear grasshole, Sir Fern. Now as you may have noticed, Fern doesn't really like anyone and is an opportunist. He lacks empathy, holds himself to high regard (sometimes too high, on his already high horse), and tries to downgrade other people's acheivements. If they are against him, he simply finds an excuse. But does that really make him a bad guy? The reason we hate him is that he pops up at the worst moments and acts like the douchebag he is. Examples include our being trapped in a jungle and him asking from us to tell him that he's the best, throwing a natural selection comment in front of someone's demise, and appearing after a tense scene along with the "bad guys". You can't love him after those. Oh and he made Aya cry, but... she deserved it because she whines all the time. Anyway, that was off topic. The point is that Fern hasn't really -done- anything that's considered a crime or an outrage. He is just a constipated jock that loves making fun of others in order to feel better about himself being mediocre. You will not like him, you will not be friends with him, but as far as crimes go, your friends have done worse things.

I'm glad you mentioned Saphira

While she acts all big and protective and tough, she's also extremely reckless as I've noticed in a recent playthrough. I finally got the cutscene where she is kidnapped by Sirius on the meteor raid in Tanzan Cove. She disregards the safety of others as well as her own. She wants to destroy anything and everything that is a threat to her family. Dr. Connal, the meteors on the lake. And when she was kidnapped, she was ready to destroy the rest of the meteor hideout if Lin hadn't come along. The only reason she hasn't been captured or killed is because she is actually really tough. But if she keeps this behavior up I can see one of a few things happening. Like her causing a disaster like possibly blowing up part of a town near a pulse. Or just hurting someone innocent in general. Or possibly even turning on us the second we disagree and contradict her if we may put her family in danger. Although I see the latter as less likely sense we do have to officially battle her for a badge.

tl;dr Saphira is going to get someone innocent hurt eventually with that attitude of hers.

[Masquerain]

I'm glad you mentioned Saphira

While she acts all big and protective and tough, she's also extremely reckless as I've noticed in a recent playthrough. I finally got the cutscene where she is kidnapped by Sirius on the meteor raid in Tanzan Cove. She disregards the safety of others as well as her own. She wants to destroy anything and everything that is a threat to her family. Dr. Connal, the meteors on the lake. And when she was kidnapped, she was ready to destroy the rest of the meteor hideout if Lin hadn't come along. The only reason she hasn't been captured or killed is because she is actually really tough. But if she keeps this behavior up I can see one of a few things happening. Like her causing a disaster like possibly blowing up part of a town near a pulse. Or just hurting someone innocent in general. Or possibly even turning on us the second we disagree and contradict her if we may put her family in danger. Although I see the latter as less likely sense we do have to officially battle her for a badge.

tl;dr Saphira is going to get someone innocent hurt eventually with that attitude of hers.

I half foresee Saphira causing her own death due to a fatal mistake

[Antilegend]

I'm glad you mentioned Saphira

While she acts all big and protective and tough, she's also extremely reckless as I've noticed in a recent playthrough. I finally got the cutscene where she is kidnapped by Sirius on the meteor raid in Tanzan Cove. She disregards the safety of others as well as her own. She wants to destroy anything and everything that is a threat to her family. Dr. Connal, the meteors on the lake. And when she was kidnapped, she was ready to destroy the rest of the meteor hideout if Lin hadn't come along. The only reason she hasn't been captured or killed is because she is actually really tough. But if she keeps this behavior up I can see one of a few things happening. Like her causing a disaster like possibly blowing up part of a town near a pulse. Or just hurting someone innocent in general. Or possibly even turning on us the second we disagree and contradict her if we may put her family in danger. Although I see the latter as less likely sense we do have to officially battle her for a badge.

tl;dr Saphira is going to get someone innocent hurt eventually with that attitude of hers.

She already has. Saphira is a ruthless example of consequentialism, but since she's an ally, we underplay the actions she's taken based on nepotism. Within the story, she was killed tens, if not hundreds, of Team Meteor personell with brutal efficiency. When following her into the Tanzan depths, she kills two Meteor grunts standing guard in the few moments she was off-screen. With Saphira, the ends will always justify the means, and that's a dangerous mentality to have in an ally. That makes her reckless, unpredictable, and impulsive. Team Meteor is most certainly the enemy, doing whatever they can to achieve their goals. Actions such as these, however, will push them into a more desperate and violent corner.

The way I see it, is that she -likes- destroying and killing things (probably a trait she received from the doctor), as it is clear that her way was not the only one to acheive her goal. She could fortify the house and buy enough time to fly the others to a safe distance. On the contrary she kills any Meteor on the lake. Let's mention that the Meteors there were defenseless. They were swimming to get across. The premise was clear, the actions even clearer and the whole thing passed on as something "Meteors deserve because they are the bad guys". I wonder what Charlotte would say in this situation.

I disagree that she enjoys shedding blood in the name of her family, but rather, she views the entire organization as an enemy that needs to be compartmentalized and dealt with accordingly. She's dehumanized any member of the organization as the enemy, and without a thought to the consequence or people she's crushed under the foot of her power, she's ready and willing to eliminate them (sometimes en masse) because they're perceived as a threat. Diplomacy has failed the Reborn region.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Antilegend

[Personthing]

I disagree that she enjoys shedding blood in the name of her family, but rather, she views the entire organization as an enemy that needs to be compartmentalized and dealt with accordingly. She's dehumanized any member of the organization as the enemy, and without a thought to the consequence or people she's crushed under the foot of her power, she's ready and willing to eliminate them (sometimes en masse) because they're perceived as a threat. Diplomacy has failed the Reborn region.

To be fair to Saphira though, Team Meteor are definitely not willing to compromise or negotiate. They are going to try and complete their goals, (which will involve the deaths of many, potentially including Saphira's family) regardless of what people try to do to stop them. At that point Saphira makes a somewhat logical choice. If you let them go after defeating them, they are extremely likely to just continue with their plans. (Hence why we fight the same meteor grunts many times throughout the story) She sees killing members of Team Meteor as a necessity to stop them for good, on top of her personal and justified vendetta against Sigmund.

I can't exactly disagree with her solution. If they are going to kill hundreds of thousands of people, killing them is justified, especially if it's the only way to stop them for good.

I do agree that Saphira is too reckless for her own good though, and while her main motivation is to protect her family, every dead Meteor member is good for everybody else.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Antilegend]

To be fair to Saphira though, Team Meteor are definitely not willing to compromise or negotiate. They are going to try and complete their goals, (which will involve the deaths of many, potentially including Saphira's family) regardless of what people try to do to stop them. At that point Saphira makes a somewhat logical choice. If you let them go after defeating them, they are extremely likely to just continue with their plans. (Hence why we fight the same meteor grunts many times throughout the story) She sees killing members of Team Meteor as a necessity to stop them for good, on top of her personal and justified vendetta against Sigmund.

I can't exactly disagree with her solution. If they are going to kill hundreds of thousands of people, killing them is justified, especially if it's the only way to stop them for good.

I do agree that Saphira is too reckless for her own good though, and while her main motivation is to protect her family, every dead Meteor member is good for everybody else.

Agreed. I think Saphira's action's and Meteor's increasing ambition for causing as much havoc as possible really illustrates how much the situation has deteriorated. Meteor's gone from causing overgrowth and polluting water to full-on bombartment of cities and capturing hostages, and it only makes sense that someone like Saphira responds to this increasing hostility in kind.

Though I may come off as a pacifist, I do understand the logic in her actions, but responding to violence with violence only begets more violence. Actions on both sides of the conflict are showing patterns of increasing hostility that will likely reach a critical mass sooner than later.