Does Fern Redeem Himself? Possible Spoilers

[Gaunt]

Though I may come off as a pacifist, I do understand the logic in her actions, but responding to violence with violence only begets more violence. Actions on both sides of the conflict are showing patterns of increasing hostility that will likely reach a critical mass sooner than later.

So, in your opinion (if violence is "bad") what should she do? As we already established negotiating is out of the question, what then? Nothing?

P.S.

This topic is derailing a little

[Antilegend]

So, in your opinion (if violence is "bad") what should she do? As we already established negotiating is out of the question, what then? Nothing?

P.S.

This topic is derailing a little

Incapacitation? She's got the power to spare life given the opportunity, but seeing as though she'd sooner kill the enemy rather than show mercy shows her ruthlessness. Like I mentioned before, in order to combat the increasing hostility, it only makes sense that someone responds to that hostility in kind. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and all that. I just find that mentality discouraging.

Look at the main protagonist, for example. They managed to find a way to make a tremendous impact against Team Meteor's ambitions on multiple occasions without spilling blood.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Antilegend

[Gaunt]

Incapacitation? She's got the power to spare life given the opportunity, but seeing as though she'd sooner kill the enemy rather than show mercy shows her ruthlessness. Like I mentioned before, in order to combat the increasing hostility, it only makes sense that someone responds to that hostility in kind. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and all that. I just find that mentality discouraging.

Look at the main protagonist, for example. They managed to find a way to make a tremendous impact against Team Meteor's ambitions on multiple occasions without spilling blood.

Look at all those Meteor grunts we (re)battle again and again, they are the same people we encounterd at the beginning (as previously mentioned) we did not stop them and all our efforts ammounted to just a (little) delay of their plans, Saphira's methods are not "ethical" in any way but they're effective and she certainly managed to "damage" them, unlike us.

[Antilegend]

Look at all those Meteor grunts we (re)battle again and again, they are the same people we encounterd at the beginning (as previously mentioned) we did not stop them and all our efforts ammounted to just a (little) delay of their plans, Saphira's methods are not "ethical" in any way but they're effective and she certainly managed to "damage" them, unlike us.

The protagonist, and the allies accumulated (excluding Saphira), have managed to do the following, without causing a casualty along the way:

* Disrupt and neutralize five PULSE machines.

* Liberate Ametrine City from Blake's (Meteor's) control

* Free Heather and Adrienn from captivity

* Free orphans from Sigmund Connal's orphanage, all of whom have proven to be bountiful allies.

* Expose and neutralize Terra's corruption.

* Maintain and control key pieces required by Team Meteor to accomplish their malevolent goals.

* Rallied support from Gym Leaders to combat the dire situation in Labradorra by completing missions on their behalf.

* Maintained and secured the safety of the Dark Gym Leader, Luna, from Bennett and Elias

These are ones I can think of off the top of my head. Yes, Meteor members have been cycled back into the fold after their defeat. However, many repeat offenders have voluntarily either left the organization, or left on terms that would otherwise have them vindicated. This is seen through the regret and remorse shown by Cal, Eclipse, Aster, ZEL, and Simon, all of whom were ranked highly enough to be privy to sensitive information or tasked with carrying out missions under their command.

Eclipse even attempted to tell the protagonist about the downward spiral Team Meteor's been in since Lin seized power before her unfortunate demise. This can serve as a stark reminder that not everybody in Team Meteor is inherently evil, but under the tyrannical rule of a deplorable sociopath concerned only about seizing power and dominating the region. After the events of PULSE Abra, Sirius fears this leader so much that he'd rather save the life of the protagonist rather than face the catastrophic fallout that would likely follow. It's very likely Lin has a very powerful and very threatening hold on many Meteor members. Take their former leader, Solaris, for example. Doesn't exactly strike you as the kind of person to tolerate usurping members, does he? Perhaps Solaris has a (figurative) gun to his head in the form of Taka, his son, and should he not carry out questionable and extreme orders, she'll horrifically end him.

But I digress. To suggest that we haven't made a noticable impact against their end game would be inaccurate to say. Grunts have been returned to Meteor ranks and there have been casualties caused by Meteor personell, yes, but the achievements far outweigh the failures.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Antilegend

[Gaunt]

Most of that is correct but it just serves as confirmation for what i said: our only "accomplishment" is that we delayed them, not stopped. I feel that if the protagonist was more rational/efficient most of the grunts would be dead (or in prison) by this point and the team simply would lack the manpower necessary to accomplish it's "goal".

Now for the things you got wrong:

1) Adrienn was not in captivity, actually we don't really know what exactly happened to xim (ptobably time travel of some sort).

2) About the "keys": here i feel that the ptotagonist was really "inept" as we managed to lost them several times (most of them for stupid motives).

3) The Gym Leaders rose against Team Meteor by themselves not thanks to the protagonist.

4) Cal wanted to leave the organisation long before we came, ZEL is still with them and Simon left only "thanks" to Saphira's "intervention".

[Antilegend]

Most of that is correct but it just serves as confirmation for what i said: our only "accomplishment" is that we delayed them, not stopped. I feel that if the protagonist was more rational/efficient most of the grunts would be dead (or in prison) by this point and the team simply would lack the manpower necessary to accomplish it's "goal".

Now for the things you got wrong:

1) Adrienn was not in captivity, actually we don't really know what exactly happened to xim (ptobably time travel of some sort).

2) About the "keys": here i feel that the ptotagonist was really "inept" as we managed to lost them several times (most of them for stupid motives).

3) The Gym Leaders rose against Team Meteor by themselves not thanks to the protagonist.

4) Cal wanted to leave the organisation long before we came, ZEL is still with them and Simon left only "thanks" to Saphira's "intervention".

Oh, almost certainly. If we had incapacitated them permanently, such as putting grunts into jail, or even the hospital with superficial wounds, that would have made it more or less impossible to deal with them repeatedly. It's just a question of the resources that we have at our disposal, and we've got a reinvigorated police force in the Jasper Ward just kind of standing around at the moment. We set it up, and they take the watch.

The point I've made, however, is that many of the Meteor members should see a day in court. Many of the members who have left mentioned above would still face justice and a punishment after due process of the law. Assuming, of course, the Reborn region's laws are similar to that of ours. This is why I think Saphira's actions are inherently brutal and reckless. We know, for a fact, that several members of Team Meteor are either there against their will or unwilling to continue with the increasing pattern of violence. To simply kill them all, without habeus corpus or due process, strikes me as a judge/jury/executioner mentality, and brings us up (or down) to Lin's level of brutality.

Just to clarify a few things you listed:

1.) Correct, but without the direct intervention of the player, Adrienn would still just be chillin' down in Citrae. Granted, we're definitely going to need more details on what sort of captivity xe was in, but to be removed from the world for that long indicates to me that xe was put there for a reason. That, and xe's utter contempt for the state of Reborn city shows xe must've been removed from that state of reality for quite some time. Very likely he was tricked into captivity.

2.) Well, Team Meteor's made it clear that they need the key items, which means they'll put effort into getting them. At least occasionally. I'm not sure if the player still posesses the Amethyst Pendant (forgive me, I forget), but we do for sure still posess the Ruby Ring. Both times the Ruby Ring was lost was either to distract Team Meteor from executing Aya, or a scripted event to save Heather's life. Not necessarily ineptitude but a response to the cirumstances laid by the enemy.

3.) Titania is an example of rising to the occasion based on actions from the protagonist. Titania consistently told Amaria to "not get involved" throughout the drama they experienced, but as we've seen in the development stages of her character, it looks as though she's (or they're) now going to be very much involved. What I mean by "rallied support from the Gym Leaders" was essentailly leaving them plum out of excuses from helping the situation in Labradorra by eliminating everything that diverted their attention. The whole Luna arc in the story warranted the distraction of three gym leaders, not including Shade and Adrienn peripherally.

4.) Ahh, I couldn't remember if ZEL was still there or not. At the very least, there's two thirds of regret within that persona, but it's heavily suggested that feeling of regret has been there since the persona's creation. Cal, however, was there long enough to be given information about other personnel, such as his knowledge of Terra. At the time of his leaving the team after the incident at Apophyll, I'll agree that he was already planning his exit strategy, but he still followed direct orders which contributed to the death of Kiki and her Medicham. Simon, initially, wished for Saphira's demise before becoming an apathetic waste in West Peridot. He wanted to retaliate against Saphira violently, which is exactly the kind of reaction's that's to be expected. If he had the means to act on those thoughts, like Saphira does with her dragons, it's likely he would have. Would he be jaded, bitter, and alone should we have incapacitated Tara instead of having her and dozens of other Meteor grunts killed?

Also, I wanted to thank you for contributing to the conversation as much as you have. I enjoy putting thoughts I have to paper like this; I find it very cathartic.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Antilegend

[Gaunt]

Also, I wanted to thank you for contributing to the conversation as much as you have. I enjoy putting thoughts I have to paper like this; I find it very cathartic.

Oh thank you too i always enjoy a good discussion, it invigorates me.

Just a clarification for the second point: what i meant by "ineptitude" is the fact that the Ruby Ring is "taken" from us too easily (on several occasions to boot) with no input (at all) from the player to somehow "interrupt" this process, i understand that it's scripted that way to move the game forward but it just seems silly, i for example would never stand still and do nothing if an important object was taken from me. The Amethyst Pendant is in the possession of Radomus right now.

[Masquerain]

Oh thank you too i always enjoy a good discussion, it invigorates me.

Just a clarification for the second point: what i meant by "ineptitude" is the fact that the Ruby Ring is "taken" from us too easily (on several occasions to boot) with no input (at all) from the player to somehow "interrupt" this process, i understand that it's scripted that way to move the game forward but it just seems silly, i for example would never stand still and do nothing if an important object was taken from me. The Amethyst Pendant is in the possession of Radomus right now.

Don't forget that time when the fake Gardevoir just snatches your key without you lifting a finger or reacting in any way to it xd

[Antilegend]

Oh thank you too i always enjoy a good discussion, it invigorates me.

Just a clarification for the second point: what i meant by "ineptitude" is the fact that the Ruby Ring is "taken" from us too easily (on several occasions to boot) with no input (at all) from the player to somehow "interrupt" this process, i understand that it's scripted that way to move the game forward but it just seems silly, i for example would never stand still and do nothing if an important object was taken from me. The Amethyst Pendant is in the possession of Radomus right now.

That I completely agree with. Especially after Saphira and Charlotte's dialogue about never compromising to the enemies whim, then it gets thrown right out the window. When Blake grabs a hold of Heather Shelly and demands the ring, the fact we just give in and hand it to him was a bit unfortunate. I would've rathered him trying to take Shelly hostage, which would have made more sense, but instead we just handed it to him the moment the going got rough. Considering how important these artifacts are to the team itself, some exertion of force to protect it would've been a welcome sight. Alas, that wasn't the case.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Antilegend

[Darvan Korematsu]

You know? I'm gonna say it. I think Fern is actually an ok person. That's only for one reason though: his familial honor early on. He at least remotely gives a shit about his only living family, something that Blake won't do.

The guy tries at least. He's a way more try-hard than Blue, but less pitiful than Silver.

Bottom line: if you met the douchebags I see on a daily basis, Fern starts to look more like a Samson or a Cain.

[Masquerain]

You know? I'm gonna say it. I think Fern is actually an ok person. That's only for one reason though: his familial honor early on. He at least remotely gives a shit about his only living family, something that Blake won't do.

The guy tries at least. He's a way more try-hard than Blue, but less pitiful than Silver.

Bottom line: if you met the douchebags I see on a daily basis, Fern starts to look more like a Samson or a Cain.

Are you saying Cain is a douchebag? D: Cain is pretty cool

But you have a point anyway. Fern looks like your average deluded asshole. I do wonder what his motive is for joining the Meteors though, knowing they'll annihilate everything including his sister

[dankicks83]

I don't want Fern to 'redeem' himself. I hate those 'Born Again' endings, stick to your principles man!

Also, I want to melt him somehow.

[Clownbinary]

every time i beat him, he calls me a loser and leaves. i will make him suffer, he will not be missed if he dies. awful character, great antagonist though.

[0 SPD Slowpoke]

I liked him at first for telling Julia and Florina to shut up, but he showed his true colours while at Florina's gym. Really hope there's eventually a dialogue option to give him a good smack to the face.

Guess I may as well post my impressions of some other characters over time, too.

Cain: Really didn't like him at first, I thought he was ugly and annoying as hell. He's still awful to look at, but at heart he's probably the most genuinely nice character in the game. I was pretty surprised when he showed his better side.

Victoria: Thought she was cool, but what she and Kiki did during the events at her school really pissed me off. I sort of hope to see her again, though.

I-if anyone's interested, I've been working on a fanfic detailing my PC's thoughts as he goes through the events of the game. My experiences are gonna be personified in him.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Protonymic

[Knight_Teutonic]

He didn't even go full douchebag and we're already talking about redemption? I think it's a bit too early for it to happen, if it does at all.