[Spoilers] E16 Status Discussion

[gryson]

I disagree with the Chess-puzzle needing a change -- with the hints given by the NPC's and a general understanding of the rules you're playing by, I finished it on the first try without needing to look it up like I did Shelly's.

not many people do know the rules of chess

i myself did play reborn about 5 times, and each ime a look on youtube to solve the puzzle

i don't mind looking it up

i think people who know the rules do enjoy the puzzle so it doest need to be changed

[Lost Lore]

To be honest, even on my first attempt, I didn't have to look up how to do Shelly's puzzle. Now that I've done it so many times, too, I've sort of memorized the answer. (I've also noted that it is actually a lot more simple than it looks, though that may be due to solving it a million times.)

I still have to look up chess puzzles though because I absolutely cannot chess. Which is a shame because it means my favourite character also has to have my least favourite Gym by default. I can see why it'd be easy to someone familiar with chess, but if you're not, you're gonna have a hard time.

[sound of silence]

To be fair, the chess puzzle can be a pain even with knowledge of it as several times I had to restart because I couldn't push things past obstacles I couldn't see. The last puzzle is pretty damn insane to beat, even with chess knowledge, because of all the simultaneous defence and offence you need at the same time, while the one with the closed off king drives me nuts due to positioning.

[Cobalt996]

Only painful chess puzzle was the one where you need to walk behind the opposing Queen to push your rook into position, since, well, you can't see if anything (say, a pawn) is there or not. Additionally, there's learning how Bishops push, since they stay on the same colour (as per chess rules), rather than being pushed in the faced direction. Might be better for the rules room if there was a visual aid for the knight's hitting area (2 straight, 1 perpendicular), rather than just words (like remaking the room slightly to fit it in, or something). Just a suggestion, since the rules for knights can be a little awkward if you can't see them at work.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

I'd rather the chess puzzle stay the same, because if it changes the Youtube video on how to solve it would become outdated. I don't think I could solve it by myself if I ever decided to make a new file. I know you can get explanations of how it works, but it's kind of a lot to memorize.

[Commander]

This is coming from someone who hasn't played chess in years, but I don't think the puzzles were that bad outside of one which was took me like ten minutes to figure out. In terms of actual chess, these puzzles are actually more or less really simple as they leave so much room for error. (I feel the Harry Potter's Wizards Chess was harder than them).

The only thing you really, really need to know about chess is the Knight's movements as you could probably figure out the rest. There's even a room to explain all of the rules. The only other issue I see is the Pawn becoming a different piece which is the only thing that really held me up (other than the Gardevoir puzzle...which wasn't that hard to figure out). This is because I'm familiar with protecting the King and how can see how the pieces move. And yes, there is a hallway that tells you the rules of chess if you aren't familiar.

[Verlanto]

66 animations left finally is so close to the end of this

[mde2001]

66 animations left finally is so close to the end of this

That's only for the ones that are left to do in this episode (aka the moves that already had animations). So we've nearly done all of them for this episode.

After that there is all of the other moves which aren't even on our list yet which will be done in other episodes.

[IdleThoughts]

I really liked the Chess Puzzle, but I'm the kind of person who plays Chess... so yeah.

I hope with the relationship values system, we're able to obtain some means of altering the relationship values at the start of Episode 16. Kind of like how when the non-binary protagonists were added, we got some way to change protagonists without having to restart our game. Maybe just a random NPC in Agate/Grand Hall that asks us to answer honestly about things we did previously that were of significance? I mean, Amethyst already has SOME switches that retain SOME of our Dialogue choices (like Luna remembering if we chose El or Randomus or Charlotte remembering if we tried to sacrifice the Keystone or not). Maybe she can find some way to skip those kinds of questions? Although this may ruin whatever secret make up the relationship points system... the people that will NEED this NPC likely would replay the game often enough so that they would figure out what effects what manually.

[bepe]

I liked the chess puzzles too, they were difficult but it was a fun brain teaser. I did have trouble with the last one though since it took me a long time to consider moving a pawn tothe other side.

[bamboozler]

Personally, the chess puzzle is my favourite in the whole game. The 2 things I would adjust would be to make the pieces themselves a bit more polished (Nidoqueen and Nidoking look almost identical, for example) and not have the bishop spaz out occasionally.

And I'm excited for the relationship variables! Especially the ones surrounding the Team Meteor fam.

Also because I play on a toaster, will the game run less laggy in the upcoming episode? I know Route 2 has been tweaked, but are there any other areas/the whole over world?

[Monochrome_Complex]

I actually like the Chess Puzzle a lot. Thing about shelly's gym is that the indicator for how the shelves moves is very odd. I know there's colors next to the switches but they hardly tell you anything. I only solve it via trial and error or memory, which doesn't make for a good puzzle IMO.

[Xiri]

I personally love chess - but I admit, I really couldn't be bothered trying to figure out the solution to the last chess puzzle (I did try a couple of times, but to no avail). Hence, I looked up answers every time for that particular puzzle. All the ones before it was quite manageable.

[Kaneki]

Personally, the chess puzzle is my favourite in the whole game. The 2 things I would adjust would be to make the pieces themselves a bit more polished (Nidoqueen and Nidoking look almost identical, for example) and not have the bishop spaz out occasionally.

Wow. I didn't realize that the king and queen in the chess pieces are Nidoking and Nidoqueen, respectively. No offense to the devs, especially Ame, but the chess pieces (king and queen) don't look like Nidoking and Nidoqueen. At least for me

[Amethyst]

The chess pieces are all made from their overworld sprites, which for Nidoking/queen come from the canon games... so no offense taken. If they don't look like themselves, that's on Gamefreak. Admittedly a lot of their difference is probably in their coloration, so it's difficult inherently.

If I were going to change another puzzle, and I might, it would be the Cage puzzle in Blacksteam. Similar to Shelly's, it's a notable difficulty spike. But, I'm not currently planning to do that. The reason that I am not changing the Chess puzzle (outside of solving for the inconsistency in Gardevoir's) is because it's very difficult to do anything to that concept without remaking the whole thing entirely, and because it's later in the game so it's more appropriate to have harder puzzles. It's still a spike, but a hard puzzle is more out of place early in the game.

I will admit my mistake with that puzzle in the first place though. Honestly, it was a bit of overconfidence on my part, assuming most people were familiar with chess. I think I first started playing chess when I was like four, so as something I grew up with, I had this notion that it was commonplace-- something almost everyone knew. I included the instruction room for what I thought would be a handful of people who didn't, but that obviously turned out to be a much larger population than I'd expected. If I had realized that from the start, I probably would not have made the puzzle like it is.

[Kaneki]

fuck GameFreak.

Why the cage puzzle? Oh you've answered that. TBH the cage puzzle was really easy. But then, you know more than me so...

EDIT: Odybld after me said things about Roggenrola being tough to notice which actually is another point I forgot to emphasize state.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Kaneki

[Odybld]

Speaking of the Blackstream puzzle, the only change it would need is something more visible than Roggenrola. Seriously, that thing is very tough to notice, especially if you don't know it's there in the first place. (and an Abra that cooperates in less steps, but it's ok as of now)

[Masquerain]

Agreed , the cage puzzle was easy once you squint and notice that the roggenrola exists

[Genesis]

I liked the cage puzzle haha, but nah, I can understand it would be hell difficult to rewrite the chess thing. I guess I complain too much with that. I blame game freak for making it so hard to recognise the sprites...

I would like to ask Ame though: In your opinion what is the hardest puzzle of the game currently? Will there be even tougher later on? If so, would you be so kind as to give us a hint on what kind of puzzle it would be?

Personally, puzzle that require strength and moving things are the most annoying for me since a lot of the time if you move something wrongly you have start over. Crustle puzzle and Solosis puzzles I'm looking at you

[Odybld]

I'm pretty late but I thought some about it and I'm gonna be very, very insistent on this one. Sorry, Ame.

TL DR version first:

-the Byxbysion Wasteland region is becoming increasingly empty

-the Steel types distribution in the game is going from bad to worse

-stop micromanaging availiability

-axing isn't the answer to centralization

-Do you like promoting the game as being inconsistent?

-Do you like continuing with the "first come, first served" mentality that older players get all the good stuff?

In E15 the Byxbysion Wasteland:

+got a new starter there, Squirtle
+got a TM added retrospectively, Venoshock
+got a newly implemented TM added, Secret Power...
-...only in the public version it's glitched and it's a second Rock Smash

-lost Gastly
-lost the Misdreavus event, with Misdreavus taking over Gastly's event
-lost Mudkip, a better and more popular starter than Squirtle

-lost the Mawille exclusivity (Railnet)
-lost the Zubat exclusivity (Azurine)
-lost the Nidoran M exclusivity (Arcade)

-lost the mid-game Beldum event (became post-game)

The Wasteland has always been a region on the edge of the map: you go there, get your badge, get some cool event things and then go in other, far away places. You can return there for two juicy events: the Yureyu Key (Solosis, Rotom, Probopass, Magnezone, the Magnet item) and Beldum.

Not to mention that now most of the juicy stuff (Venoshock, Dawn Stone, Sun Stone, Moon Stone, a Capsule, Squirtle, Spiritomb tomb, Secret Power) are pretty much one next to another in the Grotto and post-Grotto areas.

And that two Pokemon still exclusively found in the Wasteland, Spiritomb and Inkay, are the definitions of reliance on luck: you have to get very lucky while mining the Keystone and you have to get lucky with the Headbutt formula to get Inkay (or anything, mind you!) from the very few trees left there. I think it's 3 or four trees total.

I don't know the extent of the changes you've made, Ame (I'm very afraid Probopass has the same fate just by sharing the same evolution method), but I think all these removals really aren't positive at all, leaving the whole area a barren afterthought at the edge of the map with 0 revisitability. Which is a shame, because it's awesomely made and it deserves more time to play there.

And don't try to force stuff. To axe Gastly, you forced a Pokemon who's theme is mischief (Misdreavus) lose its perfectly suiting event of hide and seek to be in a very creepy, very negatively ladden event where it pretends to be a dead person. Gastly can do that job, Misdreavus doing it is just not fitting at all.

Another reason to not axe them: the availiability of Steel types in the game won't be balanced at all: we're 75% done with the game, and we have 13 fully-evolved Steels (Steelix, Forretres, Mawille, Aggron, Empoleon, Wormadam, Bastiodon, Bronzong, Lucario, Escavalier, Bisharp, Durant, Klingklang) , leaving out 9 (Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory, Metagross, Probopass, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Aegislash and Klefki). 13-9 or 14-8 if someone is lucky enough to get Exca. I am fairly confident that no other type not named Dragon comes close to a 61% availability with the game being at 15/19 episodes released (axes included).

Speaking earlier of things that look forced: replacing a mole that lived in freshly dug underground tunnels with a hippopotamus. A hippopotamus, living in freshly dug underground tunnels. Instead of a mole. I get why you did that, but it doesn't make any more sense other than that.

Ideas on how to solve some of these:

-bring back Gastly in a multiple-stops event
-give Missy her old event back
-make headbutt trees have a fixed chance of starting a battle
-make an Odd Keystone event
-keep the Yureyu Key event and all the rewards as they are
-keep some variation of the Beldum event (more on that later)

-fix the AI to be able to read Air Balloons

Yes, I do not see any reason to axe Magnezone. Yes, it is OU. Because it has a certain niche to trap some steel Pokemon and can kill them unlike Probopass. And the steel-trapping ability doesn't even matter outside OU because there is another Pokemon that can do it almost as well (Magneton) but there are no Skarmory, Klefki, Ferrothorn and Scizor outside OU. And the AI doesn't do switches, so trapping isn't really a thing. Axe Gothitelle if trapping is the issue. Yes it is a fan favourite. Nothing we can do on that one. It's impossible to eventually keep fan favourites from getting some big usage. Under that logic, axe your favourite Gardevoir.

Also, you know who uses a Magnezone? Shofu, the most popular Reborn LPer. Do you like promoting the game as being inconsistent? I don't think it looks good having people see Shofu use his Mag and not be able to get one for themselves because axerino. Not to mention, post-Magnezone gyms: Luna,then Samson, Charlotte and Terra. Yikes. Just fix the Balloons to make them non-abusable.

As of Beldum:

-that thing is the biggest momentum-killer in the game, both to catch and to raise. You have to dedicate lots of time, effort, resources and patience to catch one.

-it's good, no doubt about it

-it's the only pseudo available, so it's a hot commodity. Wows! Centralizing!

-in E14, it could be caught before Radomus. The gyms after: Luna, Samson (Koff alert!), Charlotte, Terra.

-in E15, it can be caught only in the small window between defeating Luna and going through the checkpoint of no return.

If you think that the centralization merrits axing, let me retort with this argument: centralization is the result of a Pokemon being not only very good, but also unique, peerless. A quality Metagross has, because, simply, there is no other pokemon with the pseudo tag to rival it. There are other pretty good psychic types, as well as some ok steel types... and that's that.

Take a moment to consider just how much stuff you still have to give out: (with Zone, Probo, Beldum considered in the game)

-4 gen4 evolution items for Magmar, Electabuzz, Sneazel and Gligar

-9 starters, ranging from underwhelming to very popular to broken

-6 pseudos

-4 and a half Gen1 waters waiting for the Super Rod (Tenta, Staryu, Shelder, Slowpokes)

-3 Dance Sweepers (Gyarados, Volcarona, Haxorus)

-3 very different mixed type fairies (Azumarill, Klefki, Togekiss)

-3 defensive and one offensive desert-related Pokemon (Mandi, Ferro, Skarmory and Exca, respectively)

-1 Pokemon that personifies the generation gap, Jellicent (!)

-2 Ghosts (Gastly, Aegis)

-3 priority abusers (Scizor, Breloom, Talonflame)

That's 38,5 fully evolved Pokemon unavailable as of the end of E15... oh and also another 38 out of the 42 non-legendary Mega Stones, plus the Mega Ring.

Stop micro-managing availiability, Ame. E15 was exhibit 0, and E16 is exhibit 1 of much longer development times. You have to consider each episode you release a stand-alove game that will be played, finished, replayed, challenge-run-played, mono-run-played, and replayed some more. You have to concern yourself both with E19 as a finished product and E16 as a finished product.

You also have to consider that we're in Gen6, we have 721 Pokemon species, the power levels are shooting upwards and monsters of the older times may be quite tame now. Jellicent is one exhibit, losing all its OU steam and falling to RU in gen6. Salamence, a pseudo DD sweeper, has fallen from Ubers in Gen4 to absolutely unviable in OU in Gen6. You can try to resist the power rise, but it will end up in everything been made availiable in the last episode if you use old measures.

In the end, Metagross being centralizing isn't its own fault, or the players' fault, or the community's fault for spreading the knowledge on how to get it: you have put in something great in terms of typing (Steel!) and tag (Pseudo-legendary!) that stands alone without anything to rival it. It's not beating down the game as if it was nothing, oh and it's not the best Pokemon ever in competitive, falling to UU after Smogon broke apart the mega and non-mega usage. It's not Gyarados, setting up a single DD and destoying everything with Moxie.

So in short, keep that awfully tedious event, and, if you want my two cents, bring it back to being available before Radomus. I don't believe it merrits the pain of going out of your way to get it, it kills the momentum of the story. But, if you axe it you're just making things even worse in the long run, ignoring the realities of the gen6 power balance, giving even more hype to the pseudolegendary tag, creating a longjam for the availiability in the last few episodes and toning even more the "first come, first served" mentality that older Reborn players get better Pokemon.

[Commander]

I could make a long post, but I feel a tl;dr version would be better. Pokemon have reasons they are axed as you can only speculate and removing them is to promote variety. The reason people go back and revise previous areas of a work (I would use writing but this is a game) is because they get better and more knowledgeable over time. Touching up on previous areas to make it flow better isn't a bad thing and I definitely wouldn't call this micromanaging. The only really big change was the implementation of field effects which got done over time.

And by the way, there are quite a few steel types available and Forretress is available in episode 1. (Forretress, Klink, Escavalier, Durant, Probo...nevermind on him, Aggron, and possibly Bisharp) so that arguement actually proves what I'm about to say. The problem is that a lot of people aren't willing to accept and move on with the changes. Reborn has gotten better and there are a ton of good options that you probably haven't looked at. Heck, I still miss and forget about a few like Ambipom. 1 Pokemon isn't going to make a difference and if it does, it should be axed.

[Cobalt996]

Only going to say that the "older players get the good stuff" only really applies if you assume that everybody cares that somebody else has something they don't/can't get at this time, such as Gyarados, or soon Metagross and Magnezone. Reborn LPer has Magnezone, okay; I understand that, but... Even if Metagross is the pseudo Steel, it's still... just Metagross. And as for Gyarados, literally everyone I know irl has used that before in-game, in basically every game: it gets old. It works, yes, but it's the same concept as a starter solo—you use it, abuse it, rinse, repeat for the whole game. Monotypes and Nuzlockes like a larger variety, due to their own restrictions, but if they, with all of their rules can struggle through this with or without foreknowledge, people can wait another episode for their favourite/prized mons. Why do I say that, you definitely ask? It might be fun to a relatively small audience to use the same pokemon over and over again, but once you get out of that... group(?) you begin to notice how cut-and-dry the game is without variety. Reborn isn't nice like the main games; you use what you get, or you use what you get. If you really want that one 'mon, well, that's what exploring is for (and if they're smart, they'll have an idea about how long to wait for it to appear). I hate Vanilluxe (still do), but by golly, it's an Ice-type, and it's right there. If you really do not like your options, then you explore and find new ones. Eventually you'll find something you like, or you'll grow to like what you have.

Not going back through and sorting that mess so it makes more sense before sleep/work. I'll do it tomorrow or something.

Never understood why Electivire is marked as strictly unobtainable (instead of limited event): Elekid [mystery] egg, Electrizer after rebuilding the stairs...

Hides legitimate Electivire behind 7th street

[Snorlax_nl]

I'm pretty late but I thought some about it and I'm gonna be very, very insistent on this one. Sorry, Ame.

This is just sad to read.Ame made a free game and even though you feel it could be better thisamount of critics, just no.

I think getting these pokemon out or introduce them later is fine. There are plenty of pokemon you can use and for the sake of diversity it is only better to remove the most popular strong pokemons. I, for example, am playing with a lot of pokemon I never considered before because of my preference for the better popular onces. but guess what they turn out wondreful and I am happy Ame removed osme of the popular ones.

as for the older players better pokemon. that sound a bit like a butthurt fan that wanted that pokemon for themselves. when gettting new levels some pokemon might get other purposes and get changes, deal with it not really some point of contention.

The chess pieces are all made from their overworld sprites, which for Nidoking/queen come from the canon games... so no offense taken. If they don't look like themselves, that's on Gamefreak. Admittedly a lot of their difference is probably in their coloration, so it's difficult inherently.

please dont make things easier, I love the difficulty in puzzles, it makes it much more rewarding when you finish them (even though the chess one wasnt that hard). the part i love most about reborn is the differences from other pokemons, it is not a 8 hour 2 pokemon needed game.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Snorlax_nl

[Alvez05]

Dude, it's not fair to say that she can't do a thing that she wants in the game that she is making with such hard work and for free.

As for getting these Pokémon in the late game, I'm completely okay. In the pokémon canon games, there's a lot of non legenderies pokémon that you can only get in the post-game, so that's still a win.

Also I think that it makes you think in new strategies and go out of your comfort zone, which IS what Ame wants for her game.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Alvez05

[cynx]

She is making game amazing step by step even thou some things was removed.

She is doing everything alone 100 times beater then nintendo ever did. (Only thing is what people dont know this game exist and dont know how good it is...)

I thing she have idea how to make full game so 4 exenple gastly will have beater event it makes much more sense for Misdreavus to be in that event

At least that is my opinion )

Edited January 25, 2016 by cynx