[Spoilers] E16 Status Discussion

[Hymdall]

So probably way late since I kind of vanished for a bit, bUT HOLY SNAPPLE THE STARLIGHT FIELD IS NICE.

[colers25]

I mean messing with experience at this point would really only affect the endgame levels and not the difficulty imo. Stat inflation is my last resort.

One thing I am considering for hardcore should we hit the difficulty drop to rock bottom is adding an extra restriction for the leader fights. One leader could ban shift, another healing items, and whatever else people can think of. I feel that'd be a bit more welcoming than a leader being 10-20 levels higher than you.

Restrictions could work too; perhaps giving a leader about 3 different sets of near identical pokemon with only level differences and then determine which level set you have to play against based on the highest level on your pokemon team.

Perhaps she can just make Rare Candies a fug of a lot cheaper in New Reborn

Edited August 25, 2016 by colers25

[sandy]

Restrictions could work too; perhaps giving a leader about 3 different sets of near identical pokemon with only level differences and then determine which level set you have to play against based on the highest level on your pokemon team.

Perhaps she can just make Rare Candies a fug of a lot cheaper in New Reborn

or maybe ame could copy jan's idea with rejuvinatioon im shue she/he wont mind, casual leaders have 4 pokemon with slightly rejuced levels normal is curent not sure about intense and i havnt tryed that and dont want to for the 1st line

for the second im not sure what good that will do at end game

[Bazaro]

The best way to reduce the level issues without breaking the level cap or creating crazy restrictions without taking away from trainer battles would be to reduce all incoming EXP. Even a small amount, like 5% makes a huge difference lategame with next to no notable effect early. It's not even noticeable unless you have exact EXP values memorized for some reason. Just food for thought.

[sandy]

The best way to reduce the level issues without breaking the level cap or creating crazy restrictions without taking away from trainer battles would be to reduce all incoming EXP. Even a small amount, like 5% makes a huge difference lategame with next to no notable effect early. It's not even noticeable unless you have exact EXP values memorized for some reason. Just food for thought.

i like that idea alot was thinking about 7-10% reduction myself but that may be a bit much

[NickCrash]

The best way to reduce the level issues without breaking the level cap or creating crazy restrictions without taking away from trainer battles would be to reduce all incoming EXP. Even a small amount, like 5% makes a huge difference lategame with next to no notable effect early. It's not even noticeable unless you have exact EXP values memorized for some reason. Just food for thought.

Given that some people struggle from the exact opposite, Exp shortage in certain areas, I don't think that really is a solution.

If you really need to reduce levels, just make the level cap not change between Luna and Samson, since there aren't really any trainers between them, and as soon as you finish all the circus clowns, all you have are the meteor grunts in Route3.

Instead of playing around with the level caps, you could just give the final bosses EV trained pokemon, so the E4, champion and final battles with the meteors would be actually hard without being cheap.

[Commander]

Given that some people struggle from the exact opposite, Exp shortage in certain areas, I don't think that really is a solution.

If you really need to reduce levels, just make the level cap not change between Luna and Samson, since there aren't really any trainers between them, and as soon as you finish all the circus clowns, all you have are the meteor grunts in Route3.

Instead of playing around with the level caps, you could just give the final bosses EV trained pokemon, so the E4, champion and final battles with the meteors would be actually hard without being cheap.

First thing I was going to give a long explanation (enemy being higher leveled =/= more difficult). Second, I already did that for hardcore and it basically had zero effect on the game (tbh, it was probably a really good move since Radomus was 58, Luna was 62, and Samson was 65). Exp shortage really just limits the variety used (which has benefits) so the level cap encourages using new members since you'd be wasting exp.

As for EV spreads, they've been 252/252/4 since Charlotte which people could argue that it has made the game even easier doing that. Let's just say that for many fights I had to reallocate some EVs using a calculator just to up the difficulty a bit. Very convoluted process (though once you understand it, it's pretty simple), I don't feel like explaining.

There's really no straight answer in how to fix the difficulty as it grinds down to whether or not you want to bend your own rules. Admittedly, I'm willing to bend some only within fair reason and nothing drastic (mostly just something for Hardy). The system can only do so much though. The best course of action is to make sure the fights are fun, maybe even unique, and still provide a challenge even if it keeps getting easier over time.

[colers25]

or maybe ame could copy jan's idea with rejuvinatioon im shue she/he wont mind, casual leaders have 4 pokemon with slightly rejuced levels normal is curent not sure about intense and i havnt tryed that and dont want to for the 1st line

for the second im not sure what good that will do at end game

My apologies but I have issues seeing what you are trying to say with that first sentence.

And its simple, if you drasticly lower Rare Candy prices, it would make it easier to bring up lower leveled pokemon. In concert with repeatable trainers it can make any levelling proceed at a pleasant pace

[NickCrash]

First thing I was going to give a long explanation (enemy being higher leveled =/= more difficult). Second, I already did that for hardcore and it basically had zero effect on the game (tbh, it was probably a really good move since Radomus was 58, Luna was 62, and Samson was 65). Exp shortage really just limits the variety used (which has benefits) so the level cap encourages using new members since you'd be wasting exp.

Exp shortage indeed limits variety, but it may also force you to run back to the Grand Hall or Circus rebattlable trainers to keep up with the level cap and have better chances at winning. That's what most trainers do, and it gets tedius after a while. Sure, strategy beats brute force anytime, but if we were to argue in favor of more strategic plays from the leaders instead of leveling them up to improve their performance, we should better look at improving the AI and creating original strategies for every single leader. If however we are going to buff them the natural way (without of course limiting their strategy), we need to help the PC improve.

Being encouraged to use more pokemon because of how much Exp would otherwise be wasted is a good thing. I would like to know the reasons this didn't work in hardcore, because you use "zero effect" and "really good move" in the same sentense which confuses me.

As for EV spreads, they've been 252/252/4 since Charlotte which people could argue that it has made the game even easier doing that. Let's just say that for many fights I had to reallocate some EVs using a calculator just to up the difficulty a bit. Very convoluted process (though once you understand it, it's pretty simple), I don't feel like explaining.

Are you saying that the conventional EV spreads we use for competitive battling when teambuilding in PO or Showdown are ineffective in an in-game environment, or that the process of relocating the EVs is time-consuming? Either shouldn't be a problem. One is just tedious and has you re-write the code, whereas the other can be solved by doing a bit of research for what's good to use and have a damage calculator by your side to speed up the process.

There's really no straight answer in how to fix the difficulty as it grinds down to whether or not you want to bend your own rules. Admittedly, I'm willing to bend some only within fair reason and nothing drastic (mostly just something for Hardy). The system can only do so much though. The best course of action is to make sure the fights are fun, maybe even unique, and still provide a challenge even if it keeps getting easier over time.

It's starting to get easier because the game becomes complete, most pokemon are available, and their natural movepools allow them to do their roles just right, without having to rely on EV training, IV breeding, or TM usage. While the first 2 are possible, in a finished game, people won't always take some time off the main story to specifically grind for EVs or breed extensively. Usually you'll only see them grind for exp, which is common in the environment of an RPG game.

As I see, the fields are progressively becoming even stronger, and the leaders' teams are as strong as the pokedex allows them to be. I suppose your statement of "bending the rules" hints to using legendaries, and I would agree that this would make their teams far stronger. However they already have so much to help them against the PC, it's redundant; field effects, access to all items and TMs, Mega Evolution, etc. They even can use pokemon that are limited by the next level cap (since technically, they already own the badge you need for that).

Even so, I would have to pray for Hardy. Unless Gen7 (or Cepheus) brings a Mega Gigalith or awesome Rock types he could use (since he cannot use Diancie or Terrakion), he is going to pose little threat to the player's team. Right now it's pretty much confirmed he's using M-Aerodactyl (so don't expect Scizor anytime soon), and that's pretty much all he has.

I know Adrienn is more likely to be the one we fight this episode, but even xe has better chances thanks to most usable Fairies being non-legendaries, since xe has a M-Mawile to use (xe doesn't know what Gardevoir can do), Azumarill, Togekiss, Granbull etc

Place your bets and get a Nomos doll . . . only for 1.000.000.000 pokedollars

[sandy]

My apologies but I have issues seeing what you are trying to say with that first sentence.

And its simple, if you drasticly lower Rare Candy prices, it would make it easier to bring up lower leveled pokemon. In concert with repeatable trainers it can make any levelling proceed at a pleasant pace

its actualy fairly simple insteas of having 3 seprate identical team they have 1 team its just that with casual you take 2 out for example in rejuvination amber the fire leader has 4 her typhlosion and rotamarent there they are a very deadly combo. in normal they are all there at their correct level and intense well i dont know how that works as i havent tried it.

i see your resoning with the second point

[Commander]

@Nick: Admittedly, it does work for Hardcore mostly because I thought that was an error in episode 15 where Samson should've raised the cap instead of Luna given Radomus got a huge level nerf along with her to make up for the level drought. (I mean Radomus is the same level as Noel kind of nerf). That just helped make the process a bit more streamlined imo since Agate is a Point of no Return so having too much exp vs too little is very important there.

EV spreads are like comparing fruits. I like oranges (128/124/128/128 split) while let's say ame like apples (252/252/4 spread). They taste different but that doesn't mean one is better than another. Generally for tanks I try making them a bit more two sided tanks since well in-game tanks don't work quite like they do for competetive since the ai doesn't like to switch, the player can freely switch out something that can destroy, and the weaker defense really shines out. It's a case by case scenario doing it my way vs a 252/252/4 where it's easier to figure out, and usually works. I suppose it's my FE experience where I don't sacrifice defense for offense unless the mon is super frail to begin with. EVs are easy to do, but there's not a right way to do them.

Hardy is probably going to be the next Hardcore Shelly (hardcore players know what I'm talking about) where everything but his ace is ridiculously well built. If he can get set up that is. The trouble is setting up for him though so that'll likely be my challenge when we get their. Ciel just needs better AI since that's the second biggest factor holding her back (the first is all her best options are taken by someone else). Trust me when I say that we haven't hit the wall when it comes to difficulty yet (without breaking the pokemon rules), though admittedly I feel uneasily way too close to it.

Bending the rules is a very ambiguous term as it means breaking the rules (believe me I want to give Ciel a legendary like Articuno so, so badly but I can't). It's a term I use since it means giving the opponent something the player can never acquire such as a Volbeat with 71 base Sp Atk instead of the normal 31 or so it gets. It's a topic worth diving into as it'd allow for some mons who are complete jokes due to a certain fault (since many were designed for player, not computer use) actually be viable or be used again.

[DemICE]

EV spreads are like comparing fruits. I like oranges (128/124/128/128 split) while let's say ame like apples (252/252/4 spread). They taste different but that doesn't mean one is better than another. Generally for tanks I try making them a bit more two sided tanks since well in-game tanks don't work quite like they do for competetive since the ai doesn't like to switch, the player can freely switch out something that can destroy, and the weaker defense really shines out. It's a case by case scenario doing it my way vs a 252/252/4 where it's easier to figure out, and usually works. I suppose it's my FE experience where I don't sacrifice defense for offense unless the mon is super frail to begin with. EVs are easy to do, but there's not a right way to do them.

a solution i have found is choosing tanks that have inherently one defensive stat good, so that i can put EVs on the other one, and the result is pretty satisfactory, like weezing and gourgeist

[Nadrel]

In the end, once you have access to most skills and most pokemon, there is no unwinnable battle.

In an old pokemon fangame (Gemme), you could battle the developer team which was composed of lvl 255 legendary pokemon, hours after his introduction, many people had already beaten him. The techniques were gimmicky and abused the AI but they still worked, this wasn't a very interesting battle though.

The genius part in pokemon Gemme is the introduction of fields which introduce an additional difficulty without artificially buffing the enemy pokemon.

I guess you could still increase the difficulty of the game by creating new items used by enemy trainers such as improved versions of Attack X, Speed X...

Another way could be to create several team comp/movepools for every boss changing at random, so you can't predict exactly what you're going to fight.

For example : You face the water leader, she uses Lapras, first time, she beats you with a rain dance special attk Lapras, you reset and adapt, but now you're facing a dragon dance physical Lapras.

Just some ideas thrown for the sake of discussion.

[kalzone678]

Levelling is gonna be a big issue huh? If we raise the level cap over 100, it ruins some aspects of the game. But if we don't, it ruins some aspects of the game, it's a double edged sword really. What if (Maybe in a future episode, possibly when Gen 7 is introduced) we reworked the game to lower all the trainers levels, thus preventing us from gaining a lot of experience, and allowing the game to work under the level 100 cap. This could potentially take forever but i feel like it's pretty much our only option to combat this issue. Kind of like what Gen 2 did to allow an entire other region.

Of course people would still have their super OP saves from previous files, but meh.

[NickCrash]

That's not the issue here. Difficulty can be achieved without raising the max level over 120. Even if we did, the trainers in Grand Hall are rebattlable which means people can just grind their way up. Using more pokemon in rotation alleviates the excess experience points issue. However, there is no such issue in the first place, if you play Reborn they way you are supposed to; with multiple pokemon around the level cap.

It is much harder to level the closer you go to lvl 100, so having gym leaders not raise the level cap is the obvious solution. If the trainers you have to battle to reach your goal are not enough, you add some of them, or a couple of sidequests that could boost your exp.

[Foamy]

I mean messing with experience at this point would really only affect the endgame levels and not the difficulty imo. Stat inflation is my last resort.

One thing I am considering for hardcore should we hit the difficulty drop to rock bottom is adding an extra restriction for the leader fights. One leader could ban shift, another healing items, and whatever else people can think of. I feel that'd be a bit more welcoming than a leader being 10-20 levels higher than you.

I have both of these banned in every single Pokémon game that I play through, so I welcome this. It encourages people to strategize and beat boss characters on more equal footing, since NPCs can't pre-counterpick after a KO or survive almost indefinitely with Revives.

its actualy fairly simple insteas of having 3 seprate identical team they have 1 team its just that with casual you take 2 out for example in rejuvination amber the fire leader has 4 her typhlosion and rotamarent there they are a very deadly combo. in normal they are all there at their correct level and intense well i dont know how that works as i havent tried it.

i see your resoning with the second point

I think they're saying that they're having trouble reading your jumbled mess of illegible text.

[ZEL]

It'd be mildly amusing to battle leaders with a few Max Revives on hand. Or rage-inducing.

You know damn well Fern would do this. I'd love it.

[captaind00m]

when will we be able to kill someone in pokemon reborn. it kinda sucks only do walking, talking, battling

[Anstane]

when will we be able to kill someone in pokemon reborn. it kinda sucks only do walking, talking, battling

...isn't that kind of the point of Pokemon games?

Well, we'll be "Saying Goodbye" to someone in E16, though even if it does mean a death I highly doubt it will be at our hands.

At least, I really hope not.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Anstane

[NickCrash]

when will we be able to kill someone in pokemon reborn. it kinda sucks only do walking, talking, battling

But... we kill ourselves. Slowly yet steadily. These eyes have seen things. Terrible things.

[5hift]

when will we be able to kill someone in pokemon reborn. it kinda sucks only do walking, talking, battling

Hope we get to kill Fern.

That'll probably make up for the lack of character action we have.

[laggless01]

Hardy can run a TR focus sash Solrock/Lunatone as a lead, perhaps (plus Memento and/or Stealth Rock to screw you over)? I could imagine that incapacitating many challengers...

[NickCrash]

Well, sharpedo would be a real pain to deal with for example

Custap berry explosion focus sash lunatone. Enough said.

Ghost types are given free entry as this instantly becomes setup fodder. No, it needs to be something we cannot cheese our way through.

[Dragon116]

Custap berry explosion focus sash lunatone. Enough said.

Cutsap Berry and Focus sash are both held items. You can only have 1 held item. And neither Lunatone nor Solrock get Sturdy as far as I know.

[NickCrash]

Custap Berry and Focus sash are both held items. You can only have 1 held item. And neither Lunatone nor Solrock get Sturdy as far as I know.

Stuck with levitate. Even if you replace Lunatone for Gigalith, the same thing holds true. It's a cheap tactic that can be exploited very easily.