[Spoilers] E16 Status Discussion

[Ironbound]

I'm interested to see Taka's fate. What will our choice in the water treatment centre affect, besides the tiny rooftop dialogue? If we battle Taka, and he is viewed as incompetent rather than treacherous, he will at least be still in Meteor, though probably shorn of any power or responsibilty. Had we left him to be discovered as an unwilling traitor, is his life in danger?

I doubt Solaris would allow his son's death, what with the whole 'pure bloodline' thing. But will Lin secretly snipe him? So many theories.

I doubt Taka can be useful to the player in either case, since he would be either not trusted with any information or power anymore, or he'd be...eliminated. Still, it'd be very interesting to see how things pan out.

[FairFamily]

Hmm, it's interesting to think about what they'd do if they absolutely had to choose one of them (as it's quite clear that Eve and Lumi are decidedly not on Meteor's side at all).

From how I interpret Eve, her loyalties lie with nobody but ZEL themselves. She'd try to ensure their survival above all else.

As far as ideals go, she would not agree with either Lin or Solaris.

Now, I think it's clear that the radicalization of Meteor is Lin's work, and that no matter how questionable Solaris' motives may be, he presents the smaller danger.

We know that Solaris and Taka have a clear goal in mind, even though we don't really know the details yet: Cleanse the city so that Reborn can be restored to whatever they think it should be like. After that, Meteor would have lived its purpose.

The whole new world nonsense is clearly Lin's idea, from what Sirius implied. So the whole world-destroying scheme is hers. But it's hard for m to believe she doesn't have a supreme motive. Do you think if she succeeds and the world gets recreated, she'll just go "ah, everybody lives happily and in peace now, bye then"? 'Cause I don't think so.

I'd wager Eve would much rather side with the weird guy who has a strange sense of duty to his distant ancestors, than with the power-hungry sadist that Lin is implied to be.

Solaris needs helpers to reach his goal, and after that he'd have no need for them any more. Lin, through what Laura told us about her, likes having control over people, over their fears especially.

Frankly, I don't see any of ZEL siding with her.

It's strongly implied that Eve is the only person capable of working with the PULSE, which on one hand means that they can't leave Meteor (they wouldn't come very far), but on the other, it also means that Meteor depends on them and cannot risk their lives like it's happening with other members.

If it's true that ZEL are the only ones who know the science behind the PULSE, then that's pretty clever on Eve's side - she's effectively making sure that Meteor can't kill them as long as they need her knowledge, but if through some circumstance they are killed, nobody might be able to pick up their work (or at least there would be a delay in Meteor's plans as they struggle to find themselves some new scientists).

Interesting I consider ZEL most likely siding with Lin. ZEL has litlle problem with the ruthless and demanding nature of Lin because ZEL knows that Eve is invaluable due to be the PULSE. On top of that does Solaris ofer little to ZEL except a "small" amount of moralty. In fact Lin can (and probably did) offer something valuable to ZEL : three bodies. Lumi probably wants a new body . She believes that she's a constant burden to EVE and wants to rectifiy that but she can't do since she's sharing a body with her. Eve wants Lumi to be happy and healthy. Being a member of team meteor and being fused with two other people might not be what most consider happy. Being able to seperate from each other could be the only way to make Lumi tuly happy.

Also what you claim to be "new world nonsense" is actually pretty believable by Eve and therefore Lumi. Eve strongly believes in the power of pkmn and PULSE since Eve tried to cure an uncurable disease using the power of pkmn and PULSE. What Lin suggest is using the power of what is considered the god pkmn. Amplifying that power with PULSE could create possibilities beyond Eve's imagination.

Edited April 16, 2016 by FairFamily

[ZEL]

Hmm... But do you think that Lumi - the person who said that she would rather die than be a burden to her own sister, who constantly apologizes for everything ZEL do, who can't stand seeing the PULSE mons suffering, who comes across as an all-around sweet and gentle person who would never willingly harm anyone - would agree to have the vast majority of humanity eradicated and the whole world recreated, for nothing more than her own comfort?

I don't believe that someone who would rather sacrifice herself than to cause her own sister inconvenience, would think that her own happiness is worth more than that of all of humanity.

I would sooner see Lumi accept the fate of staying part of ZEL, than to decide that she wants her body back at the cost of so many lives.

I do believe that Eve will do what she must to keep them alive, even if it means going along with Lin's plans, and I believe that Eve considers Lumi worth more than anything else in the world (including said world). Because if not, there'd be nothing stopping her from ending their collective lives for the sake of humanity.

But she respects Lumi, and by extension, I think she would respect her opinions.

Now, I have to admit there's something that makes me believe they would not necessarily stay unhappy with being ZEL, but considering it has to do with their original concept as RP characters, it may have no bearing at all on what Ame envisions them to be like in the game's universe. So as much as I'd like to, I can't use that argument here, even if it definitely influences my interpretation of them :c

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on the whole Eve possibly being willing to go along with the "new world" thing for the sake of getting their bodies back. I remember writing a huge wall of text about it some time ago. But the ultimate question is - would it really be worth it? Lin is very clearly portrayed as power-hungry and controlling. Surely someone in ZEL's position would be well aware of that, and by extension of the fact that a new world with Lin in it is not going to be any more peaceful and happy than the current one.

I do think that it's possible for Eve not to see this (she's intelligent, but not wise) now, but if we're talking about an Eve that's aware of how dangerous Lin would be even in that new world, then I cannot see her choosing that.

EDIT2: Sorry for rambling so much, omg. I just get really excited about this kind of discussion, aaaa.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Ama

[Abyssreaper99]

Hmm... But do you think that Lumi - the person who said that she would rather die than be a burden to her own sister, who constantly apologizes for everything ZEL do, who can't stand seeing the PULSE mons suffering, who comes across as an all-around sweet and gentle person who would never willingly harm anyone - would agree to have the vast majority of humanity eradicated and the whole world recreated, for nothing more than her own comfort?

I don't believe that someone who would rather sacrifice herself than to cause her own sister inconvenience, would think that her own happiness is worth more than that of all of humanity.

I would sooner see Lumi accept the fate of staying part of ZEL, than to decide that she wants her body back at the cost of so many lives.

I do believe that Eve will do what she must to keep them alive, even if it means going along with Lin's plans, and I believe that Eve considers Lumi worth more than anything else in the world (including said world). Because if not, there'd be nothing stopping her from ending their collective lives for the sake of humanity.

But she respects Lumi, and by extension, I think she would respect her opinions.

Now, I have to admit there's something that makes me believe they would not necessarily stay unhappy with being ZEL, but considering it has to do with their original concept as RP characters, it may have no bearing at all on what Ame envisions them to be like in the game's universe. So as much as I'd like to, I can't use that argument here, even if it definitely influences my interpretation of them :c

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on the whole Eve possibly being willing to go along with the "new world" thing for the sake of getting their bodies back. I remember writing a huge wall of text about it some time ago. But the ultimate question is - would it really be worth it? Lin is very clearly portrayed as power-hungry and controlling. Surely someone in ZEL's position would be well aware of that, and by extension of the fact that a new world with Lin in it is not going to be any more peaceful and happy than the current one.

I do think that it's possible for Eve not to see this (she's intelligent, but not wise) now, but if we're talking about an Eve that's aware of how dangerous Lin would be even in that new world, then I cannot see her choosing that.

EDIT2: Sorry for rambling so much, omg. I just get really excited about this kind of discussion, aaaa.

I could see some of this happening. Do you think there could be a point where Lumi gets fed up with Team Meteor's power hungry schemes and then teams up with Eve to convince Zero that all of the destruction is futile in the end? I mean it would be really cool if events spark emotions within all 3 people within Zero's body that it causes Lumi to act like this and convince Eve to help her. I fell that Lumi would be able to gather the confidence to oppose Team Meteor's ideals. Perhaps Eve could end up gaining control over the body for a while and end up sabotaging the PULSE machine after the player has defeated ZEL in a battle as a decision of whether it is worth finally going against Team Meteor.

I feel that Zero embodies Team Meteor's ideals, Lumi is the total opposite to Team Meteor ideals and Eve just agrees to survive. I think Lumi and Eve, considering they had to remain in Team Meteor for the remainder of time that Zero's body lives, would prefer Solaris being in charge but would like to be away from all of it to live on.

I believe ZEL, Elias, Lin and maybe Taka would be in the city as Solaris, Blake, etc are all up in Labradorra city. Unless if Elias has retreated to the Pokémon League of course. Any Meteor Admins that are present during what Ive conjured up in the first paragraph would be thinking or saying 'What the hell?'. Adrienn would probably be thinking 'Well I was frozen in time for 10 years so this is nothing extraordinary to me'. Possibly potential doubles with Adrienn against the Meteors?

Aside from potential Meteor content, we will have our overdue battle with Victoria.

[CURIE]

Ame's probably holding out hope that mega Hydregion becomes a thing by the time she gets to the final battle with Lin. At the rate things are going, we'll get there in like, generation 9, so Gamefreak has plenty of time.

[ZEL]

I'm not sure to what extent I want to see Zero as truly being dedicated to Meteor's ideals (no matter whether we're talking Lin's or Solaris' here). We simply don't know enough about him to know what motivated him to join in the first place.

I think as far as his position in Meteor goes, he's really more of a case of a grunt being caught in the crossfire (his rank prior to ZEL has never been mentioned, but I don't think he was an Admin all along), so not on the same level as, say, Sirius, in terms of devotion. (Personally, I like to imagine that he's more of an Aster case, someone who joined for the personal gain, someone who comes from a background of having nothing.)
(I'll admit I really like Zero. I like the outspoken, stubborn attitude he has, and I'd be lying if it didn't amuse me every time when he gets upset over things not going the way he'd like them to. So maybe I'm biased because I really want him to side with Eve and Lumi.)

I think that as far as ZEL's dynamic goes right now, the ultimate decision-maker is Eve. Lumi looks up to her for that, and as stubborn as Zero can be, it's been shown multiple times that he fails at challenging her authority.

Right now it would seem to me that they're in a situation where Eve would respect Lumi's opinions if she gave any, but at the same time, Lumi trusts Eve to know what's best for them.

It is obvious that Lumi is very uncomfortable with what ZEL do, and I'm sure Eve knows that. But what Lumi would need to do to cause any change in their behavior would be to firmly put her foot down for once.

I'd love to see her to that, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

I am not so sure that we're going to see ZEL in the next episode. From what it seems, it will take place in Reborn City, and they have no business being there. Meteor isn't currently maintaining any PULSEs there. I'm guessing ZEL are more busy with the ones creating the barricade around Labradorra.

While the teaser for E16 said that "the heart of reborn will fall", implying a possible attack, ZEL aren't what I'd call an attack force.

I don't think Meteor needs a PULSE for it, so unless they do, there's no business for ZEL to be there.

[Cobalt996]

I'll be the only sane person here, and respond in a perfectly serious manner.

Zero, Eve, and Lumi will each get their own bodies back, but doing so will grant us the truest of villains: Solinirius.

[Ironbound]

Oh no! What a nightmare!

I'd like to point out that the reason for ZEL's existence was an experiment on a Magnezone. Therefore it will be a Magnezone who will separate the three again, and it will be revealed that Magnezone is in fact the leader of Team Meteor.

THE LORD MAGNEZONE GIVETH AND THE LORD MAGNEZONE TAKETH AWAY!

[ZEL]

But Viri, if you were to harness Magnezone's powers to separate them again would that not mean that said Magnezone, too, will revert back to being a Magneton?

Would you sacrifice the mighty lord like that?

Also, whose body will Solinirius have? That's very important so I can imagine this. I'd like to think it'll be Lin's. That Hydreigon would have a whole new meaning~

[BIGJRA]

But Viri, if you were to harness Magnezone's powers to separate them again would that not mean that said Magnezone, too, will revert back to being a Magneton?

Would you sacrifice the mighty lord like that?

Also, whose body will Solinirius have? That's very important so I can imagine this. I'd like to think it'll be Lin's. That Hydreigon would have a whole new meaning~

I can only really imagine Solinirius being a thing for some post-game comic relief, assuming that 1-3 of them don't perish during the story.

[ZEL]

Well uh, I wasn't... actually taking that seriously, y'see

[FairFamily]

Hmm... But do you think that Lumi - the person who said that she would rather die than be a burden to her own sister, who constantly apologizes for everything ZEL do, who can't stand seeing the PULSE mons suffering, who comes across as an all-around sweet and gentle person who would never willingly harm anyone - would agree to have the vast majority of humanity eradicated and the whole world recreated, for nothing more than her own comfort?

I don't believe that someone who would rather sacrifice herself than to cause her own sister inconvenience, would think that her own happiness is worth more than that of all of humanity.

I would sooner see Lumi accept the fate of staying part of ZEL, than to decide that she wants her body back at the cost of so many lives.

I do believe that Eve will do what she must to keep them alive, even if it means going along with Lin's plans, and I believe that Eve considers Lumi worth more than anything else in the world (including said world). Because if not, there'd be nothing stopping her from ending their collective lives for the sake of humanity.

But she respects Lumi, and by extension, I think she would respect her opinions.

Now, I have to admit there's something that makes me believe they would not necessarily stay unhappy with being ZEL, but considering it has to do with their original concept as RP characters, it may have no bearing at all on what Ame envisions them to be like in the game's universe. So as much as I'd like to, I can't use that argument here, even if it definitely influences my interpretation of them :c

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on the whole Eve possibly being willing to go along with the "new world" thing for the sake of getting their bodies back. I remember writing a huge wall of text about it some time ago. But the ultimate question is - would it really be worth it? Lin is very clearly portrayed as power-hungry and controlling. Surely someone in ZEL's position would be well aware of that, and by extension of the fact that a new world with Lin in it is not going to be any more peaceful and happy than the current one.

I do think that it's possible for Eve not to see this (she's intelligent, but not wise) now, but if we're talking about an Eve that's aware of how dangerous Lin would be even in that new world, then I cannot see her choosing that.

EDIT2: Sorry for rambling so much, omg. I just get really excited about this kind of discussion, aaaa.

Lumi does it not for her, but for her sister. Lumi can't stand that her sister is again burdened by her. First the pulse machine she was despertly building for her, then getting kidnapped and now they share a body due to her illness, her weakness. That was how I tried to formulate it. It's not her body but Eve's body she cares about. If there was an oppurtunity to give either Eve or herelf a new body, I would believe she would give it to Eve. I also think that what you said about Eve and sacrificing the world for Lumi is also true for Lumi. I believe that Lumi while extremely troubled by the choice would eventually damn the world for her sister.

Now for Eve I think: yes they know how Lin operates and what she does to her subordinates but she ran out of options. Evolution is still a relatively mysterious concept in the pkmn world. On top of that it was influenced by a PULSE so forget having a lot of research about this kind of concept. The other two bodies are also lost so Eve had at that point no options left, so imagine when Lin offers her way out. She would grab it with both hands tightly. Yes she my damn the rest of the world, but helping the world will not get Lumi in her own body. Lin might be a threat after or during the world alteration, but I think that Eve is confident that she is irreplaceable and that even after the world is altered she will stil be needed to mantain the Arceus PULSE (gods might have tricky side effects on pulse machines). So I think that she believes that she at all time has some bargaining power and for leaving her sister alone should be quite easy especially since Lumi is no threat what so ever.

I could see some of this happening. Do you think there could be a point where Lumi gets fed up with Team Meteor's power hungry schemes and then teams up with Eve to convince Zero that all of the destruction is futile in the end? I mean it would be really cool if events spark emotions within all 3 people within Zero's body that it causes Lumi to act like this and convince Eve to help her. I fell that Lumi would be able to gather the confidence to oppose Team Meteor's ideals. Perhaps Eve could end up gaining control over the body for a while and end up sabotaging the PULSE machine after the player has defeated ZEL in a battle as a decision of whether it is worth finally going against Team Meteor.

I feel that Zero embodies Team Meteor's ideals, Lumi is the total opposite to Team Meteor ideals and Eve just agrees to survive. I think Lumi and Eve, considering they had to remain in Team Meteor for the remainder of time that Zero's body lives, would prefer Solaris being in charge but would like to be away from all of it to live on.

I believe ZEL, Elias, Lin and maybe Taka would be in the city as Solaris, Blake, etc are all up in Labradorra city. Unless if Elias has retreated to the Pokémon League of course. Any Meteor Admins that are present during what Ive conjured up in the first paragraph would be thinking or saying 'What the hell?'. Adrienn would probably be thinking 'Well I was frozen in time for 10 years so this is nothing extraordinary to me'. Possibly potential doubles with Adrienn against the Meteors?

Aside from potential Meteor content, we will have our overdue battle with Victoria.

I do think that Lumi eventually would place her foot down for once with some external influence probably from Shelly. I mean she has read the dairy and there is a reason for that except putting some guilt into the player. Eve would most likely follow Lumi and sabotage team meteor in some way. I don't think that it would be in reborn city but it is possible. I'm also very happy with meeting Victoria again. I missed her character to be honest. Maybe we meet Terra in reborn again, she is somewhere in the internet and configuring herself to someone's computer should be easy for her. She could bargain her freedom for a lead to a new team meteor operation (see a bit below on my speculation).

I'm not sure to what extent I want to see Zero as truly being dedicated to Meteor's ideals (no matter whether we're talking Lin's or Solaris' here). We simply don't know enough about him to know what motivated him to join in the first place.

I think as far as his position in Meteor goes, he's really more of a case of a grunt being caught in the crossfire (his rank prior to ZEL has never been mentioned, but I don't think he was an Admin all along), so not on the same level as, say, Sirius, in terms of devotion. (Personally, I like to imagine that he's more of an Aster case, someone who joined for the personal gain, someone who comes from a background of having nothing.)

(I'll admit I really like Zero. I like the outspoken, stubborn attitude he has, and I'd be lying if it didn't amuse me every time when he gets upset over things not going the way he'd like them to. So maybe I'm biased because I really want him to side with Eve and Lumi.)

I think that as far as ZEL's dynamic goes right now, the ultimate decision-maker is Eve. Lumi looks up to her for that, and as stubborn as Zero can be, it's been shown multiple times that he fails at challenging her authority.

Right now it would seem to me that they're in a situation where Eve would respect Lumi's opinions if she gave any, but at the same time, Lumi trusts Eve to know what's best for them.

It is obvious that Lumi is very uncomfortable with what ZEL do, and I'm sure Eve knows that. But what Lumi would need to do to cause any change in their behavior would be to firmly put her foot down for once.

I'd love to see her to that, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

I am not so sure that we're going to see ZEL in the next episode. From what it seems, it will take place in Reborn City, and they have no business being there. Meteor isn't currently maintaining any PULSEs there. I'm guessing ZEL are more busy with the ones creating the barricade around Labradorra.

While the teaser for E16 said that "the heart of reborn will fall", implying a possible attack, ZEL aren't what I'd call an attack force.

I don't think Meteor needs a PULSE for it, so unless they do, there's no business for ZEL to be there.

Zero can be both a grunt or an admin in my opinion. A grunt seems a bit unlikely since he was responsible for acquiring the pulse project which seems a bit too important for a grunt leading more towards an admin role. However you could always play the overzealous grunt aiming for a promotion situation card as an explanation for Zero's place as a grunt.

Also I think you are spot on ZEL's dynamic though. To add on that if Zero was a grunt when the fusion happened, it wouldn't surprise me that ZEL isn't an admin but rather Eve is. Zero and especially Lumi would then become admin we association since it is to complicated to split their role. However by team meteor standards she would be the authorative figure.

The last thing would be an attack on reborn city. I think it would be very likely for team meteor to attack reborn city, the attention is on Labradorra and reborn has become a symbol of hope when it was rebuild. Destroying it again would crus everyone's spirit for decades which would fit Solaris' agenda. I'm not familiar with reborn's timeline but it wouldn't surprise if there was PULSE underneath reborn city which caused the earthquake. Team meteor would then reinstall the PULSE with a new pkmn and cause a new earthquake. If there was no pulse invlolved they could simply place a new one and do the earthquake in the same fashion. Either way ZEL would be involved.

[ZEL]

Lumi does it not for her, but for her sister. Lumi can't stand that her sister is again burdened by her. First the pulse machine she was despertly building for her, then getting kidnapped and now they share a body due to her illness, her weakness. That was how I tried to formulate it. It's not her body but Eve's body she cares about. If there was an oppurtunity to give either Eve or herelf a new body, I would believe she would give it to Eve. I also think that what you said about Eve and sacrificing the world for Lumi is also true for Lumi. I believe that Lumi while extremely troubled by the choice would eventually damn the world for her sister.

Now for Eve I think: yes they know how Lin operates and what she does to her subordinates but she ran out of options. Evolution is still a relatively mysterious concept in the pkmn world. On top of that it was influenced by a PULSE so forget having a lot of research about this kind of concept. The other two bodies are also lost so Eve had at that point no options left, so imagine when Lin offers her way out. She would grab it with both hands tightly. Yes she my damn the rest of the world, but helping the world will not get Lumi in her own body. Lin might be a threat after or during the world alteration, but I think that Eve is confident that she is irreplaceable and that even after the world is altered she will stil be needed to mantain the Arceus PULSE (gods might have tricky side effects on pulse machines). So I think that she believes that she at all time has some bargaining power and for leaving her sister alone should be quite easy especially since Lumi is no threat what so ever.

Your arguments make sense, so I feel like our differing opinions are pretty much based on us interpreting Eve (or Lumi, for that matter) as a character differently.

I personally don't see her as being someone who would ever truly support Meteor any further than she needs to for ensuring survival. I don't think that if you gave her a choice, she would side with Lin or Meteor at all. She just doesn't have that choice and now tries to retain the bit of control that she has.

But that's just my personal thoughts, nothing that can be explicitly proven through the game, so I can't use it as an argument.

It's more... gut feelings I guess.

So your arguments make perfect sense in your interpretation of her, is all I can say.

I do hope we get to see them again soon. It's been so long :c I miss them.

[Abyssreaper99]

As for referring to ZEL, would you use They/Them pronouns since it's 3 souls morphed into one body unless you were speaking to one of them alone (Lumi for example)? Plus I like seeing all these different ideas and putting my own in regarding what role ZEL would play into plot within the future as the role could be anything considering the good character that ZEL is.

[ZEL]

I refer to ZEL as they/them when talking about them collectively, since it just seems polite.

Which does remind me, you know a little scene that I really liked?

http://40.media.tumblr.com/25a51b9aef49954d2ac052496e67415f/tumblr_inline_o5qr8c5lIx1tvim1h_500.png

Everyone else (besides themselves) always uses the ZEL name, it's nice to see Sigmund actually differentiating (and likely being able to tell them apart.)

[Abyssreaper99]

I mean Sigmund is one of the few who would actually do that. He had to keep a close eye on his patients after all so he would notice these little details.

[Zargerth]

Sigmund might be related to Lumi and Eve somehow. Iirc Lumi mentioned a doctor in her diary. That doctor could be Sigmund.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Zargerth

[Samalet]

I wonder how everything will end for Fern. He is a huge asshole, but I really can't imagine him killing people for Meteor unless one of the leaders force him to do so on gunpoint, he (and Blake) don't really seem to realize the gravity of the whole situation. He's extremely lucky that Lin wasn't present when he spectacularly lost in his debut Meteor fight.

[Bazaro]

The 3 pieces of ZEL are parallel to the 3 parts of the mind; Ego, Super-Ego, and Id. Eve is clearly the Super-Ego, leaving every decision to pure logical reasoning with no emotion involved in her decisions, while also keeping the clashing personalities of Lumi and Zero from completely destroying each other. Eve has taken actions to satisfy both sides, but ultimately seems interested in advancing the PULSE. It's not all black-and-white though, as Eve has shown that she cares for Lumi. Lumi would be the Ego, making decisions she believes to be for the best without thinking about them too much. As mentioned, she puts the safety of her sister above everything else, which is somewhat illogical thinking. And that leaves Zero as the Id, who makes rash decisions fueled by emotion (usually temper and vengeance in his case.) His loyalty to Meteor is somewhat questionable since we really don't know anything of his background, but it seems to be enough to keep ZEL in their allegiance. He shows to be the more dominant personality of the 3, having the most control and getting annoyed when the others fight for control. There's 2 possible endings for ZEL, really... either they separate and go on their merry ways, or they learn to work together as one.

As for separating them, it goes back to the time they fused when a Magneton evolved while in the PULSE. 3 Magneton units fuse into one Magnezone. 1 Magnemite unit splits into 3 units upon evolution. Coincidence? Maybe... maybe not.

[Abyssreaper99]

Eve would be more like the Ego as that's the rationalisation part, Lumi would be the Super-Ego as that's the selfless part although Eve would have some traits of that if following your logic.

[enu]

Ame's probably holding out hope that mega Hydregion becomes a thing by the time she gets to the final battle with Lin. At the rate things are going, we'll get there in like, generation 9, so Gamefreak has plenty of time.

She could always create a custom mega. Mega-Hydreigon from Insurgence is super scary. Also there was a HydreiGOD in Zeta / Omicron with insane 140 base speed.

I still believe that Reborn will be done before gen 8 though. E16 is taking insane amount of time because it contains various updates pretty much everywhere. With any luck Ame should be able to focus more on the new content in future episodes.

[Commander]

Secrets and sacrets! Don't shoot me, but somehow I feel that an evil person with a backstory loses a lot of the 'evilness' factor. I mean, does everything have to be explained and humanised?

Like the exposition about Sirius was sufficient and yet still retains some mystery: He poisoned off Corey's wife to get his hands on the ring, got his eye punctured by Corey as retaliation...and that's it. He's evil, yes, he mysteriously knows about Anna and Noel and their parents, and he is implied to have actually been the one to burn down Belrose Manse. For reasons of his own, probably merely for power, he clearly sides more with Lin than with Solaris, calling the latter's ideals of purifying the ancient city foolish.

In my view, that's the ideal bad guy for you. Sinister, hints of his evilness revealed by other people, and not too much backstory so it retains the mystery factor. The moment you say he was bullied in childhood and abused etc etc it loses a lot of that mystery factor, since we start to understand the chap. Understanding breeds empathy, or at least acknowledgement, and the understandable is never mysterious.

Of course, I'm just woolgathering. I'd not be unhappy at all to have light she'd about Lin and Sirius and Solaris and everyone else, but I'd be equally happy to just leave their origins in mystery. Bad guys are more terrifying if you don't fully know why they do what they do, or if at least they're not humanised to the extent where it becomes another case study for a psychoanalytics class.

Jesus this topic moved really freaking fast. I just want to jump into this section a little bit. Bloody hell, y'all are killing me here. I'll start out with "villain" backstories. You say you like your villains mysterious, but that's more of evil for the sake of being evil trope which really don't have any character at all. Think of a FF final boss such as Garland, Exdeath, Sin, etc. They just aren't that memorable or effective. Motivations is a big factor of making a great villain which is often tied to backstory, but not always. Your also arguing about sympathetic villains which not every villain with a backstory is sympathetic. Ashnard from FE PoR is certainly not a sympathetic villain. I mean he freaking plagued his whole country just so he could become king.

In terms of Reborn, I could see Taka being sympathetic, but definitely not Solaris, Sirius, or Lin. I feel like Solaris is aware Lin is likely using him, but it's obvious he needs her, especially after what happened in Amaria's house. It's more of an example of how far you'd go to get what you want, kind of like Ashnard. Sirius is an odd ball though. He's definitely up to something and might even be on his own side. Perhaps when he called you part of Team Meteor he wasn't trying to cover his and the player's hide, but keep Lin from knowing that this is the player. Like the situations where he tries to kill the player/other people is just too coincidental. He's up to something involving the player.

Now for ZEL, yes they are likely a tool for Meteor, but a tool is just a tool and be discarded if it's more hassle then it's worth. I don't honestly think they'll play that big of a role in the rest of the story, but you never know. They have their reasons for what they do and that's all there is to it.

[Bessi]

cain and fern started as poison and grass type trainers and then got different pokemons added in their team.this could happen with lin also...i think she will have a team with ''evil looking'' pokemon because there are not many dragons and we will have dragon pokemon repeating themselfs...

[FairFamily]

I wonder how everything will end for Fern. He is a huge asshole, but I really can't imagine him killing people for Meteor unless one of the leaders force him to do so on gunpoint, he (and Blake) don't really seem to realize the gravity of the whole situation. He's extremely lucky that Lin wasn't present when he spectacularly lost in his debut Meteor fight.

No Blake certainly knows the scope of what team meteor is doing, he just can't be bothered to care. He intended to starve an entire village on his own and does everything in its power to do so.

For Fern , he also knows the gravity of the situation but that might be a spoiler. So I will ask you a question first before I write did you play or see a playthrough till the end of episode 15 where the main character beats Solaris' garchomp at the vulcano?

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

cain and fern started as poison and grass type trainers and then got different pokemons added in their team.this could happen with lin also...i think she will have a team with ''evil looking'' pokemon because there are not many dragons and we will have dragon pokemon repeating themselfs...

But they were fellow league challengers who branched out to other types when facing gyms who they were weak against.