[Spoilers] E16 Status Discussion

[Zane0144]

the fact is that almost half of all bug types have a 4x weakness or thay have a ton of 2x weaknesses.even hight tier bugs like scizor,heracross,volcarona,pinsir are sure to fall to one shot

That's why bugs are Hyper Offensive. You can usually take them out pretty easy. But they will try to hit you harder first. Sticky Webs helps with that.

[Commander]

Again, you people are putting way too much though into this. All Reborn leaders in the normal game can be swept very easily due to a whole bunch of things. The same goes for hardcore to a point. This is all just theoretical, but if Bennett is in the E4 and he does use that field, which is one possibility out of many, there's quite a bit that can be done to beef up the E4. If all members are beefed up, the focus on one leader will be significantly smaller given another would be near impossible without a well rounded team. The E4 is a collective thing and it's difficulty is not based on a single person. Bennett would be a really good first member since his overall team would be much weaker than any other possible candidate.

[Zane0144]

I can't see Laura's Grass being stronger than any of the current and potential E4 >_>

(I mean c'mon, she has a lilligant)

[Abyssreaper99]

I can't see Laura's Grass being stronger than any of the current and potential E4 >_>

(I mean c'mon, she has a lilligant)

I wouldn't underestimate Lilligant if I were you. Own Tempo Lilligant with Quiver dance and Petal dance can be lethal with the right EVs once set up, even that is boosted loads if Laura had the flower field (or whatever the one that changes is called).

Edited May 27, 2016 by Abyssreaper99

[Hymdall]

Again, you people are putting way too much though into this. All Reborn leaders in the normal game can be swept very easily due to a whole bunch of things. The same goes for hardcore to a point. This is all just theoretical, but if Bennett is in the E4 and he does use that field, which is one possibility out of many, there's quite a bit that can be done to beef up the E4. If all members are beefed up, the focus on one leader will be significantly smaller given another would be near impossible without a well rounded team. The E4 is a collective thing and it's difficulty is not based on a single person. Bennett would be a really good first member since his overall team would be much weaker than any other possible candidate.

I'm with Commander, here. It takes a bit of thinking/experimentation and maybe a little breeding, but every leader in Reborn CAN possibly be swept, particularly if you're a bit lucky with the early gyms. Curse Muk with Shadow Sneak 6-0s Shade 90% of the time if you set up 2-3 Curses, easy money given Muk's stats. Bennet, should we have access to something like the Choice Scarf, could EASILY be 6-0'd by Choice Scarf Tyrantrum, Rock Head or otherwise. Name a Bug type he's shown that can survive a Head Smash. I'll wait.

That's still not to say he won't be a threat. Focus Sashes, bad luck with Rock moves' tendency to be 90 Accuracy at BEST for competitive moves outside of Power Gem/HP Rock, and just the possibility of stuff like the Rock weakening berry, the name of which escapes me at the time of writing. Volcarona will probably be the biggest threat, but the problem is Bug/Fire gets bodied by Dragon, meaning if you have even a Druddigon, you should be in okay enough shape. If he rocks HP Ice for his 3rd attacking move on a QD set, that means either A)He lacks one STAB or B)things like Swampert bodybag it. Fire/Bug is not good against Water/Ground without Giga Drain/Hurricane if he decides to go the Rain route. Bennet in rain frankly terrifies me, because those of us who played Gen 5 OU remember the terror that was Hurricane Volcarona. Can't sleep on that special attack stat, ever. Not to mention Volc is SURPRISINGLY fat, so be careful.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

the Rock weakening berry, the name of which escapes me at the time of writing.

Charti Berry.

[Hymdall]

Charti Berry.

Thank you~ Regardless, I am kind of curious to see what the E4 has in store down the line. But first, we still have 5 gyms to deal with. Amaria, Hardy, Titania, Adrienn, Saphira. I'm not particularly looking forward to whatever nonsense they bring, especially Hardy. Rock is usually an early game Gym, which means when we ace him he's gonna be packing heat. Money is on Mega Aerodactyl alongside a Dragon Dance Rock Head Tyrantrum. Let the bodies hit the floor, I guess.

[Commander]

Thank you~ Regardless, I am kind of curious to see what the E4 has in store down the line. But first, we still have 5 gyms to deal with. Amaria, Hardy, Titania, Adrienn, Saphira. I'm not particularly looking forward to whatever nonsense they bring, especially Hardy. Rock is usually an early game Gym, which means when we ace him he's gonna be packing heat. Money is on Mega Aerodactyl alongside a Dragon Dance Rock Head Tyrantrum. Let the bodies hit the floor, I guess.

Leaders at this high of a level require a lot more attention and care. Amaria will be the easiest to make tough so I don't expect her to be soon. Tania is...gonna grind down to the field effect. If it helps Steel types out defensively, she could be right before Amaria. Arienn I'm slightly worried, but Saphira is going to be fine. Hardy is going to be the death of me given his Ace is Gigalith. T-tar I expect on his team but not Mega. Wouldn't surprise me if Lunatone and Solrock were his leads though. I can almost promise he'll be doubles. He'll be a good battle with love and care placed into making him despite having one of the weakest types.

[Lilleen]

I can't wait to battle Hardy. I'm so exited to see what will be his strategy. As mentioned, rock types are often easy to underestimate.

Maybe his strategy is somewhat alike Charlottes, that is his Pokémon know moves to counter their weaknesses, like grass types for ground and water, or fire types for grass and steel.

[DemICE]

Hardy is going to be the death of me given his Ace is Gigalith.

I guess this is something strict and has to be left intact because of old Reborn League? (which i know only by reading in these forums)

Considering that the people who were representing each type were competent and kinda hard to beat without good preparation, shouldn't that mean that his Gigalith was actually a pain in the ass back then?

Or the problem is actually that the AI cannot make use of those Pokemon and team compositions in general because of its limitations?

[Commander]

It would be interesting to see some of the E4 members, end up with their own original moves or even have movesets for certain pokemon, change every now and then. Not expecting the episode with the League to be rushed at all.

(I still have a feeling one of them may have a Ditto, that transforms into some Legendary)

Original moves are my biggest pet peeve in Pokemon fan games. I hate them so much with a passion. To me it gives off an impression, "I'm not very good at battles so I'm just going to make my own move to make them OP or tough." I highly doubt Ame will be giving custom moves either. Illegal moves sometimes by accident, but never custom.

As for the other suggestion, depending on how popular that CoM project turns out, something similar to that will be added. I just don't think it's a good idea for the main game, post game absolutely, but not the main one. People like having a constant game with only a few branches so that if they get stuck they can get help. Something like this could cause more frustration and would add even more time when team designing since it'd require a new trainer for every alteration you want to give them.

I guess this is something strict and has to be left intact because of old Reborn League? (which i know only by reading in these forums)

Considering that the people who were representing each type were competent and kinda hard to beat without good preparation, shouldn't that mean that his Gigalith was actually a pain in the ass back then?

Or the problem is actually that the AI cannot make use of those Pokemon and team compositions in general because of its limitations?

To be honest the biggest two factors into why the game cannot replace the player is the AI's design and the unfair advantage the player has. The latter can be programed to create an almost perfect environment based on competitive battling however leads cannot be changed so easily. The bigger problem is that the AI switches too little too late and switching is a big thing in competetive battling. Those two factors would make battles so much better but human minds think differently so it'd never replace a human in the end.

Gigalith can be turned into a threat though. Actually almost anything can considering I just got my butt handed to me by a Raticate and Pidgeot with really good level 80 Pokemon...like Infernape good. No a literal Pidgeot and not the mega. It might require a bit of time though and trial and error to get to that point. Many of Hardy's options are dual weak to something though...which is the problem.

[Zane0144]

I'm with Commander, here. It takes a bit of thinking/experimentation and maybe a little breeding, but every leader in Reborn CAN possibly be swept, particularly if you're a bit lucky with the early gyms. Curse Muk with Shadow Sneak 6-0s Shade 90% of the time if you set up 2-3 Curses, easy money given Muk's stats. Bennet, should we have access to something like the Choice Scarf, could EASILY be 6-0'd by Choice Scarf Tyrantrum, Rock Head or otherwise. Name a Bug type he's shown that can survive a Head Smash. I'll wait.

Again, you are viewing bug all wrong. Like I said, bug isn't trying to tank your attacks, its trying to hit you first and harder. Nothing is living that head smash unless it has Sturdy, or its Foretress. But in response to that Tyrantrum, he can have a faster Scarf Heracross or Durant. He could have Sticky Web up to outspeed with most bugs. He could have a Quiver Dance up on his Volc and kill it with a field boosted Bug Buzz. He could have a Scolipede with speed boost and a Megahorn with a field boost. And there is always Bullet Punch from Scizor. Heck, gyro ball from Foretress would hit that Tyrantrum hard.

Don't underestimate bug. Also, I have full confidence that anything I listed above can be achieved by the AI. It's not just with a real human player. And I'm sorry, I know you all are handling the AI and teams. I'm just trying to throw in my opinions of what I think makes a good bug team. I just don't want him to be a joke a like Diamond and Pearl Aaron. Platinum Aaron is great, but bug gets too much of a bad wrap often when it really is a great type.

Although I don't know why I'm worried when you already did such a great job with all the leaders and Shelly. Who is one of the most challenging leaders in the game without feeling cheap. (As long as you don't go easy mode)

Edited May 29, 2016 by Zane0144

[DemICE]

@Commander

Speaking of unfair advantages, i never understood why the "shift" battle mode even exists. Balancing teams would be easier if that feature was turned off completely.
Every gym leader who has double battle, is harder than those who have single battles. Half of the reason is the absense of the "Shift" mode. (Other half is because of AOE field boosted attacks ).

I think if every gym battle (or any battle in general) was double battle would promote strategic play throughout the whole game.

And yeah... everything is threatening if you play to its strengths. Noctowl was invaluable at Rejuvenation insane mode, purely because it was sooooo bulky and knew hypnosis and reflect. It created situations for my team to recover from a losing situation.

[Ironbound]

That is of course true. I learned to appreciate the worth of Arbok in that sense: Early game access to Glare and Acid Spray was excellent in many encounters, and helped greatly with that PULSE Tangrowth too, if I remember aright.

[Commander]

I just looked back at the field effect and I am wondering...how in the world do you guys think Bennett is going to be easy? It takes him some work to get the field built up but when he does, he basically has bugs that can cut through a metagross like it's a slice of butter. Swarm is a 5 times multiplier without counting stab basically. Let that sink in.You people need to look through the field effects more carefully before judging.

[Cobalt996]

Step one: rig up a slow, tanky mon with access to a Field-Destroying Fire move, and a fast one with a similar move

Step two: Force the field to get to stage 3 with either

Step three: Burn it at the beginning of the turn by outspeeding, or the end by, well, outslowing.

'Aaaay, 1.5x BP Fire attacks. Well, 6.75, if you want to factor in Blaze/FF, STAB, and 2x weakness, with the FE boost.

Bennet had better learn how to use Rain Dance, since Shelly... um... yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah. As I recall, that didn't go over so well with RHC.

Though since all of that is old news to everyone... Why not just use the field yourself? Nab something with Swarm/Chlorophyll/Overgrow, and use those moves against you opponent. Sap Sipper could stop one side, while Rattled (seriously, though) could at least provide a comeback for the other. idk what gets the latter, though, so it miiight not be viable. Still, the +1 speed could make the difference.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Cobalt996

[LucidRain]

Do the updates on the updates take this long? >.>

[enu]

@Commander

Speaking of unfair advantages, i never understood why the "shift" battle mode even exists. Balancing teams would be easier if that feature was turned off completely.

Every gym leader who has double battle, is harder than those who have single battles. Half of the reason is the absense of the "Shift" mode. (Other half is because of AOE field boosted attacks ).

I think if every gym battle (or any battle in general) was double battle would promote strategic play throughout the whole game.

And yeah... everything is threatening if you play to its strengths. Noctowl was invaluable at Rejuvenation insane mode, purely because it was sooooo bulky and knew hypnosis and reflect. It created situations for my team to recover from a losing situation.

Now this is something I agree with completely. That's why I always play every pkmn game on "set" battle style. Combined with my "no potions" restriction it makes Reborn pretty challenging. (And Reborn Hardcore impossible - but I'll try it again later.)

Also it's part of the reason why my favorite official game is Colloseum - there are only double battles. I seriously underestimated one opponent who had a Gyarados and a Rhydon. Tried to kill the Gyarados right away with electricity... that Rhydon had Ligtning Rod. Or that other trainer who only used Electrodes - every turn one used Protect and the other exploded. :-D Some situations just can't happen in singles.

I'd like to one day make a Reborn mod that would turn all battles to doubles. It would require a better AI for doubles though.

Original moves are my biggest pet peeve in Pokemon fan games. I hate them so much with a passion. To me it gives off an impression, "I'm not very good at battles so I'm just going to make my own move to make them OP or tough." I highly doubt Ame will be giving custom moves either. Illegal moves sometimes by accident, but never custom.

Yeah... This is why I don't play Reju... :-(

Edited May 29, 2016 by baldr

[Abyssreaper99]

Do the updates on the updates take this long? >.>

The update will be out when it's ready. Ame and the others who work on Reborn do have things going on irl as well as Ame having to deal with some medical issues. Ame has said in the past that episode 16 would take a long time. I believe there was a post within this topic that Amethyst put up a few weeks ago explaining her circumstances so please be patient. She is working behind the scenes and will have done a bit more work than what the progress topic says she has done.

Why not try other fangames such as Rejuvenation or Desolation whilst content for episode 16 is being completed?

[FairFamily]

I just looked back at the field effect and I am wondering...how in the world do you guys think Bennett is going to be easy? It takes him some work to get the field built up but when he does, he basically has bugs that can cut through a metagross like it's a slice of butter. Swarm is a 5 times multiplier without counting stab basically. Let that sink in.You people need to look through the field effects more carefully before judging.

Because the list of pkmn whicb can learn setup moves outside rain dance are Crustle, Parasect and Leavanny which are not the best in the bug type category. I think these bugs are too much of a limitation to Bennet at E4 lvl.

[DemICE]

Now that i think about it, Hardy's battle has many things that can make it interesting.

STAB Rock Slide is very good in double battles.

Carbink can learn Trick Room and most rock types are slow so they would appreciate the reversed priority for some Rock Slide flinches. Oh he can use dual screens too! Or one can always make the field help with their speed problem but that would be the easy way imo.

Sandstorm helps their usually low SpDef , among other things...

Only problem i can see is most of rocks dual type mons have x4 weaknesses

About E4... i think that sticking to a specific type actually hurts the difficulty of the whole thing, and also creating headaches for the ones developing it.

I think it would be better if the characters stuck with certain thematic aces of them. For example Benett with Volcarona and (Mega?)Scizor. And then build the rest of the team with varied types to support said aces.

We already have Gyms for fights against a single type. why not having something different for E4?

Edited May 29, 2016 by DemICE

[Zargerth]

Hardy's field already weakens Water and Grass-moves, which tend to be 4x weaknesses for Rock-types since quite a few of them are also Ground-types. Rock-type moves get Fire-type added in them there, so Steel doesn't counter them that badly/hard. This same effect also makes your Rock-type moves not very effective, unless he has 'mons like Aggron (which I doubt, since iirc some Fire-type moves get buffed as well, so he would shoot himself in the leg). I'd say the best approach would be using Fighting-types. Even if you got rid of his field, turning it into Cave-field, his Rock-type moves still get buffed.

I'd say Hardy is one of the more tougher leaders, partially thanks to his field. I cannot comment on his team, as I can only speculate which 'mons he has. I don't wish to find that out before-hand.

[IntSys]

@Commander

Speaking of unfair advantages, i never understood why the "shift" battle mode even exists. Balancing teams would be easier if that feature was turned off completely.

Every gym leader who has double battle, is harder than those who have single battles. Half of the reason is the absense of the "Shift" mode. (Other half is because of AOE field boosted attacks ).

I think if every gym battle (or any battle in general) was double battle would promote strategic play throughout the whole game.

IMO "Shift" exists so players can easily focus EXP gain on certain Pokemon.

[laggless01]

Sap Sipper could stop one side, while Rattled (seriously, though) could at least provide a comeback for the other. idk what gets the latter, though, so it miiight not be viable. Still, the +1 speed could make the difference.

#MagikarpToE4

Srsly though, E4's difficulty isn't necessarily the fight themselves, rather not running out on PP for moves required to win them. PP-replenishing items have never been for sale and very sparse, so using them is discouraged due to possibly running out of them for a hypothetical better occasion. On the other hand, Cynthia and Gen III-Steven weren't that easy either.

Besides, there's probably at least two-three years between now and the end of the game, who knows what sadistic plan Ame comes up with in that time?

[DemICE]

IMO "Shift" exists so players can easily focus EXP gain on certain Pokemon.

see ? "easily" again. this way of thinking of game freak has made the game easier and easier over the generations. (Gen 4 excluded)