[Spoilers] E16 Status Discussion

[NickCrash]

You said "It's one thing to protest against genetic manipulation by drawing an analogy with pets in the real world" and in the beginning you said it ethically immoral or at least could be argued as such. I'm saying we manipulate the genes of animals all the time especially when dealing with pets. Perhaps not always in a lab but breeding animals for specific traits has been around for thousands of years.

"And No. Genetically manipulating human genes is unacceptable."

Says you. Have you played Bioshock? I guarantee if gene modification becomes a thing normal people can do and afford we will have people flocking to it like birds, myself included.

We also have people against installing robotic arms or eyes on people but that's already being worked on. A few people calling it unacceptable won't stump scientific advancement (or at least I hope it won't).

We will also have people saying it's unethical NOT to give people gene modification to do stuff like treat genetic diseases. And while you're at it might as well make the baby smarter and stronger and have good teeth, good eyesight and whatever else you can afford. Keep in mind I am fully aware this is a long way away and that we can't do this yet, but I am talking in terms of whenever we can do this reliably.

This discussion is steadily going off-topic. If you wish we can continue in PMs or start a new thread. I'll post a final reply here since certain points need clarification.

It turned out to be quite lengthy, hence the spoiler tag.

How courteous of you not to quote the part that says "when a scientist does it faster and with more precision, you suddenly think he's a bad guy", which in fact shows that as long as there is a limit, one can endorse breeding and genetic modification, at least to inferior beings. Breeding is a form of Darwinian evolution in the sense of "Survival of the Fittest", where "fittest" often points to those better adapted and thus suited to their respective environment. Human intervention to evolution is indeed in existance for thousands of years with ambivalent results. We have produced livestock which produces more milk, wool, meat and eggs, while making some plants tastier but not equally nutritious, as well as form several resistant bacteria and viruses along the way. The ancestors who thought that the green pea was more fertile than the yellow one, were the same ones who thought it was a good idea to tame the wolf into a chihuahua. For thousands of years with breeding we've been doing what we thought was good, and it sometimes worked, others not. Point is, just because something has been the norm for a long period of time, it does not instantly turn into the right course of action.

Modern society however has transcended above the level of the occasional nomad with limited sanitization and food quality, with their minds constantly on the imminent dangers. To rebut your argument, we do not "manipulate the genes of animals all the time". Sure some rats and rabbits will be bred accordingly to become test subjects for medicine to improve, but we have developed ethic values that prohibit the use of more intelligent species in gene-altering procedures, with steadily limited restraints as we move downwards the ladder.

Our morals as humans and the way we perceive different organisms stem from our similarity. That's what sets the limits of what is ethical and what not. That is why even if the chimp is genetically similar to the human, we prefer to go our of our way and inject our insulin genes into bacteria to farm them instead. An earlier version of society would condone such actions as meaningless or time-consuming (ironically of course, given the difference in technology) and would have no second thoughts about performing even human experiments vere dat to speed up ze prozess, ja? If you consider human experiments perfectly fine, I'd suggest placing yourself in the position of someone deprived of free-will or meddled with the process of basic thinking or brain evolution, possibly before you are even born, as such actions are made with your 2 initial and separate cells in a lab before they merge. You might want to check the UN's declaration of human rights, while you're at it. You will find some interesting things about dignity above life.

It is a good thing that I do not base my opinions influenced by games (however great they are), since their creators and artists are merely inspired by certain movements without direct contact with the pros and cons of actual implementation of their ideas (or in your case, ideals) in real life. To rebut, I might as well use a line from Bioshock itself: "Any line of thinking will proceed in a certain direction until it reaches a limit, at which stage it can go no further; it has reached its natural end-point". I will, however, encourage you to watch Gattaca. It showcases the potential threat of a social classification system based on genetic discrepancies and inequality among people. Or you might just watch Captain America, since it's targeted at younger audiences, and see where the real applications of such technology will be.

So if you could afford to improve yourself via technical means you'd instantly do it, and the same would go for your children. I can understand this will for superiority, but you should consider the ethical aspect of depriving your child from its individuality, since technical genes will end up in generatons of clones, or even worse the social problems it will have in case you could not alter major effects because it would either mean the death of the child or the technology hasn't progressed enough for machines to duplicate the effects of multiple genes regulating certain characteristics. "Smarter and Stronger and good teeth" are not singular aspects. Your DNA is so complex that so many different factors take place you could not simply take control of all of them. This specifically goes for the "brain" part in which if you change one too many stuff, you end up with a completely different person. The future you theoretically strive for can easily be turned into a dystopia defined by social casts based on money and who can afford genetic manipulation, as well as psychological detachment from the basic sentimental powers of life. Hooray for legal brainwashing and child clones for warfare or organ harvesting! Yeah some people still think those would be cool to have, because it certainly couldn't be them or their relatives in that position, right?

And no. We don't give people robotic arms or eyes. That's for Tekken or OnePiece. We are actually much more hardcore. The transplants we use are either from animals (ostrich eyes), donors (liver,skin,kidney) or dead people. The few arm transplants use preserved limbs from deceased person, usually in war. We are also using artificial heart valves (or pig ones) and bones for transplants, none of them robotic, as well as trying to find gene therapy for life threatening diseases like the various forms of cancer. So if I were to choose between cosmetic changes and sustaining life, I would without hesitation choose the latter (even if I freak out a little bit every time I have to go to the dentist).

[noahsuxx]

Glad we're done arguing about ethics in science and fully back to the game.

btw HOLYCRAPPLSDONTTAKETHEMEGARINGAWAYIMIGHTACTUALLYCRY

[Bazaro]

That reminds me that most megas don't have shiny sprites. But maybe they were added since E15.

A bunch of pages back, Ame said that shiny Mega Pokemon sprites will be coming in E15 via yours truly for the most part

[FairFamily]

meh, I'm not that execited. I mean the ring is cool and all but without the right mega stones you're nothing. None of the current stones are useable by my team(s) and I doubt the stone I want will be availlable in ep 16.

[Jmanultrax1]

I only have a few that can mega evolve. so hopefully I can find the stone and ring

[Timber Dragon]

Pfft, y'all can keep your new-fangled Mega Evowhatchamacallits. I got this far without them and I'm damn well gonna take my living ice cream cone thingy to the Elite 4. </has not played Gen 6>

[Lits]

Crobat does not need a mega-evo to carry me, I'm doing just fine without it.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

My Crobat 2HKO'd Solaris's Gyarados after Intimidate, with the first Acrobatics almost bringing it to red.

[PokeFailure]

When you go megastone/poke hunting.

Only to realize you killed 2/3 pokemons that can get em.

RIP Shuppet and Heracross.

[Commander]

Honestly, I was expecting the Mega Ring in Episode 17, but to be truthful difficulty wise I can work with. Believe me when I say Ciel is probably the hardest leader to make difficult due to flying type having so many weaknesses (many of which has a x4) and being a defensive leader. The only mega that may be broken is believe it or not: Heracross.

Yeah Pinsir is going to be insanely good, but it's held back by the whole low level, limited exp syndrome a lot of the lategame mons have to the point most people don't bother with them. Pinsir really needs that Return TM to hit to its max potential otherwise a good number of Pokemon can shred right through it. It's just a lot of hurdles when there's so many easier to raise and better options.

Heracross though suffers the same fate, but generally regular Heracross is going to be better than the mega because that speed decrease will kill you. Its only weak point is that it's really hard to get Rock Blast but all his other moves including bullet seed are there. Due to its better tank stats, it's going to be killing way more than Pinsir and is more vialable without being a mega versus Pinsir. What'll likely happen is that the Cleffa scenario will happen here and Heracross will be axed so that players can only get Pinsir worse comes to worse. (Or the megastones will be pushed back but I highly doubt that).

And seriously don't worry about difficulty as Ame and her team know what they're doing most of the time. I'm looking at all these concepts and ideas I have and there's plenty left I could do to torture people. Megas just make it a little more interesting. There's also a rule I use called "make the game as hard as you want" which means not to make everything absurdly difficult merely because one thing breaks the game.

Now to respond to a couple things said:

Hey, so, the discourse is fine and all if you're into that, but just because I'm concerned about end-game difficulty, doesn't mean y'all need to be.
I'll figure it out. Or we will, since it depends on feedback from you all (though I have to take into account that players here are both more used to the game and spend more time on it than other players). I may not get it correct right away, but I'll get it right eventually.

That said I find the idea of the EXP reduction pretty acceptable. It'll be invisible to most players, game levels will be sunken accordingly, and it'll let team development carry through more of the storyline. However, it'll make things awkward for existing save files. Worth? Idk, we'll see if it comes to it.

Don't agree with the Exp thing, but I really understand it. I'd be lying if the thought of shifting the entire game and level caps back 5 levels hadn't crossed my mind once or twice, but I feel what I drafted out will work nicely level wise as the CoM project brought up a few subtle ideas that seem to have been successful. It'll take a few attempts but eventually the difficulty will be there.

not to be greedy this update or anything but,

Give us the Super Rod!!!!!!!!

pls ame i need my dratini :'(

Have mercy

This is kind of what I hate about people spoiling stuff due to rpgmaker. Just because you can find data somewhere does not make it official. Talking about it just increases the chances that it'll be made harder to find than it is, or moved to an entirely different area.

I am kind of curious on the whole "saying goodbye" meaning. As has been mentioned previously, it could mean a character steps out, a death, or even just the "rebirth" of a character...someone being Reborn, so to speak. There' a lot of ways to interpret it and not a lot of evidence to back any claim up. Will Radomus' scheming come to bite him in the ass? Will Taka's betrayal of Team Meteor be dealt with in typical Meteor fashion? Will one of our companions meet an untimely demise at the hands of....god knows what at this point? Who knows, really. For all we know, Solaris could just walk off a cliff and that's the character we say goodbye to.

On another note, I'm kind of curious if we'll be able to finish up the Corey Pokemon sidequest. What are we missing at this point, Skrelp, Grimer, and Crobat? I know we got Croagunk, Nidorina, and Skuntank. Unless I missed the Grimer, we should only have 3 left, so I'm kind of curious how that'll end and if there's a tangible reward besides some neat Poison types and extra story progression in the side.

I don't know why everyone thinks that Grimer and Skrelp are going to be findable. There is zero reason to find them. Zero. It's like saying we should be able to get his haunter when we already had Ghastly in the older episodes. Nidorina was to make another Pokemon semi viable (it did not exist their in previous versions), Croagunk is unavailable through other means, and Skuntank is his secondary ace (and helps lead to another part of Corey's history). Crobat will likely be tied into it as well given its huge importance. If we were going to get a Grimer or Skrelp, we would've had them already. THOUGH if Skrelp were to be removed from the waters, I could see an event being made so it isn't lost forever (still stretching though). Grimer is still available in the WTC so there's no chance for that.

[Govictory]

pft, who needs a mega ring when Blazeikin is already broken as it is....

i highly doubt Ame would throw blazeikinite at our faces or the kanto mega stones for that matter, too good for us to have during the main story imo

i just hope we get mega Altaria in E16, that would be glorious

also please can we just kill off Fern now?

[Lord Drakyle]

Because the Mega Ring in the image was put in the items pocket there is still room to believe we wont know what it is or how to use it and on the way to wherever we take it to learn how it is used it gets damaged somehow either limiting which megas we can use it for or preventing it's use entirely until we can repair it in a later episode either way I see no reason to implement it now, what would be the point? we have lasted without it so long we can go the rest of the way without it, I mean it could always be hidden in victory road somewhere or given as a gift before the E4 or a final meteor battle or post game (although I find using a Mega Ring symbolic only when facing the Champion or a fellow mega ring user antagonist in one last showdown but that's just me) but either way seeing it in the items pocket I don't think it will be useable just yet.

[Xiri]

Oh just realized I have 4 mons on one of my teams that are capable of Mega Evolving: Lopunny, Gardevoir, Houndoom and Altaria. Can't wait!

...oh wait I need the mega stones too rip

[pyrromanis]

This is kind of what I hate about people spoiling stuff due to rpgmaker. Just because you can find data somewhere does not make it official. Talking about it just increases the chances that it'll be made harder to find than it is, or moved to an entirely different area.

But we can clearly see Dratini's nest in the Ametrine mountain through the pokedex. And since there is no where to find with surf, waterfall, dive and good rod the only assumption is that is available with super rod! We don't need to mess with rpgmaker to reach that conclusion...

[Foamy]

I kind of wish IVs didn't exist in the first place.

IVs are a stupid and unnecessary mechanic that only result in making some Pokémon strictly worse than others and I hate them.

In that vein, I welcome any changes that make IVs as close to nonexistent as possible.

Finally... I might regret this. And I 120% reserve the right to axe it later.

But until then.

HA

ALL YOU NAYSAYERS TOLD ME I WAS FULL OF SHIT

Well look who's laughing now

(Being put in the Items pocket instead of the Key Items pocket is suspicious tho)

Edited September 1, 2016 by Foamy

[K_H]

So you're saying that because you had to spend a bunch of tedious time breeding for IVs, that others should have to do the same?

IVs are a stupid and unnecessary mechanic that only result in making some Pokémon strictly worse than others and I hate them.

Some people actually make a living off of the mechanic.

Besides, how would you like it if every human were identical? It'd get pretty boring after a while. IVs are a way for Pokemon to have a bit of individuality.

[NickCrash]

To those asking for megas, you should realize that those you want are going to cause a Gyarados effect for your team, and we sure don't want that. In my opinion, we are more likely to get the stones for these megas: Steelix, Audino, Camerupt, Glalie, and Gallade.

[DerogatoryTrainer]

Mega-Ampharos pls?

It's all I've got that can Mega Evolve...

[Lord Drakyle]

If Steelixite is added in this episode I wonder where it will be found, maybe at the place where the giant steelix was? if that was the case I can't imagine that giant steelix mega evolved...

[NingyouRyou]

The only potential megas currently in my possession (and trained) would be Mawile, Sableye and Lucario. Still excited! Tbh I did not really play any official pokemon games later than Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald so I never got to use them outside of online battles.

[EDIT]: Well... I forgot to mention Abomasnow and Glalie... Poor babies.

[unrelated sidenote]: I cannot seem to find the sick tune that plays in Tanzan Mountain in the jukebox (since E15) which is a shame because it is my favorite. I hope E16 does contain it. If it is there and I missed it, I am sorry in advance!

Edited September 1, 2016 by NingyouRyou

[Foamy]

Some people actually make a living off of the mechanic.

Besides, how would you like it if every human were identical? It'd get pretty boring after a while. IVs are a way for Pokemon to have a bit of individuality.

Individuality is irrelevant. We're not talking about people. We are talking about game constructs which are defined by a series of numbers.

These numbers are the only things that matter from a competitive standpoint, so if a Pokémon is not the best that it can be, then why use it?

Let's say I breed a Weavile with a Jolly nature and the following IVs:

HP: 31

Attack: 31

Defense: 31

Special Attack: 31

Special Defense: 31

Speed: 29

You can't use this competitively. Its Speed isn't as high as it could be, and therefore it will be outsped and OHKO'd by every other Weavile that it faces. It is strictly worse than a Weavile with 31 Speed IVs, because it loses every single time.

Besides, this "individuality" that you're praising isn't even visibly apparent. It's a value that's hidden under normal circumstances. It doesn't add individuality to them - it adds unnecessary variance in the form of different thresholds and capabilities.

Let's say that Human A and Human B are genetically and functionally identical, except Human A can lift 200 pounds and run 15 miles per hour while Human B can lift 205 pounds and run 16 miles per hour. In this scenario, Human B is strictly better than Human A. They're still the exact same person, except one of them performs slightly better than the other.

[unrelated sidenote]: I cannot seem to find the sick tune that plays in Tanzan Mountain in the jukebox (since E15) which is a shame because it is my favorite. I hope E16 does contain it. If it is there and I missed it, I am sorry in advance!

I think the track is called "Atmosphere - Smoke.mp3"

It's just slowed down when it plays in Tanzan Mountain.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Foamy

[Jess]

That said I find the idea of the EXP reduction pretty acceptable. It'll be invisible to most players, game levels will be sunken accordingly, and it'll let team development carry through more of the storyline. However, it'll make things awkward for existing save files. Worth? Idk, we'll see if it comes to it.

I'm really excited for the EP.16 and waiting eagerly to play it! However, I'm wondering, since I've already put 130 hours into my save file and don't want to have anything "awkward" happening... I wonder, what is included in these awkward things? At least in my mind, it seems like some common candies would reduce the overleveled pokemon of already existant save files to the acceptable new levels of EP.16, so, it seems like a matter of, say, buying 50 common candies, which is not a big deal...

[NickCrash]

Individuality is irrelevant. We're not talking about people. We are talking about game constructs which are defined by a series of numbers.

These numbers are the only things that matter from a competitive standpoint, so if a Pokémon is not the best that it can be, then why use it?

Let's say I breed a Weavile with a Jolly nature and the following IVs:

HP: 31

Attack: 31

Defense: 31

Special Attack: 31

Special Defense: 31

Speed: 29

You can't use this competitively. Its Speed isn't as high as it could be, and therefore it will be outsped and OHKO'd by every other Weavile that it faces. It is strictly worse than a Weavile with 31 Speed IVs, because it loses every single time.

Besides, this "individuality" that you're praising isn't even visibly apparent. It's a value that's hidden under normal circumstances. It doesn't add individuality to them - it adds unnecessary variance in the form of different thresholds and capabilities.

Let's say that Human A and Human B are genetically and functionally identical, except Human A can lift 200 pounds and run 15 miles per hour while Human B can lift 205 pounds and run 16 miles per hour. In this scenario, Human B is strictly better than Human A. They're still the exact same person, except one of them performs slightly better than the other.

Well, this is a bad example since you wouldn't be pinning 2 Weaviles to fight each other, and here it actually makes no difference since there is no pokemon that can outspeed a 29SpeIV Weavile but not a 21SpeIV one. Small changes in stats (and especially speed) make a difference in the 90, the 100 and the 110 speed tier where many fast threats reside. It's a mechanic that adds little to the campaign since EVs, base stats and even Natures affect the total much more than IVs, but they have some uses in competitive, where they do make a difference. For example, it makes a difference if your Starmie has 0Atk IVs instead of 31, since it receives less damage from Foul Play and confusion hax, but a difference between 29 and 31 IVs is not important. Other examples include stronger Gyro Ballz from Ferrothorn (0SpeIV, negative nature), extra rounds of Life Orb boosted attacks (29HPIV) for Gengar and other niche uses like Power Split.

But as I said, those make sense only in the competitive scene, so boosting them to pass the campaign is not really worth the time.

[Foamy]

Well, this is a bad example since you wouldn't be pinning 2 Weaviles to fight each other, and here it actually makes no difference since there is no pokemon that can outspeed a 29SpeIV Weavile but not a 21SpeIV one. Small changes in stats (and especially speed) make a difference in the 90, the 100 and the 110 speed tier where many fast threats reside. It's a mechanic that adds little to the campaign since EVs, base stats and even Natures affect the total much more than IVs, but they have some uses in competitive, where they do make a difference. For example, it makes a difference if your Starmie has 0Atk IVs instead of 31, since it receives less damage from Foul Play and confusion hax, but a difference between 29 and 31 IVs is not important. Other examples include stronger Gyro Ballz from Ferrothorn (0SpeIV, negative nature), extra rounds of Life Orb boosted attacks (29HPIV) for Gengar and other niche uses like Power Split.

But as I said, those make sense only in the competitive scene, so boosting them to pass the campaign is not really worth the time.

If you think that the focus of that example was Weavile, then you need to learn how to properly assess statements.

It wasn't an optimal example, but the species of the Pokémon in a theoretical scenario isn't the point. There are many similar anecdotes which occur all the time. I used Weavile as an example because it was the first Pokémon that came to mind.

And yeah, you're explaining competitive battling mechanics to someone who's been battling competitively for over a decade.

Ultimately, I won't fret if IV-altering features aren't added, but I also won't mind if they are. It's just annoying when my Pokémon aren't as good as they could be due to a semi-random game mechanic that the player has little control over.

[rakky]

Do you really need control over every little aspect of your pokemon? I kinda like some stuff to stay totally random