The Big Nerf (SPOILERINOS)

[fireheart4560]

To those who are replaying the game with the new episode, how do you feel about the post Aya nerfs.

This includes Serra, even though she got a really good field affect that benefits her evasion team, it's still easy to win due to a weaker team and the fact your attacks may hit back stronger anyway.

Noel I'm ok with because Staraptor was pretty schmeh and he wound up getting a wigglytuff with stealth rocks, so why not.

Arceus got a necessary nerf to at least give us a fighting chance. The field effect made him easy too. (PLEASE DO THIS TO GARCHOMP)

Radomus though.... it was pretty unnecessary. He was kind of easy in a double battle already due to the tools you had available. Such as mismagius, pre 15 you had genar. Gardevoir ironically wrecked his team. Now they do it even harder.

Luna got hit the hardest, too hard. I think she should have recieved a 2-3 level nerf rather than 5. I almost felt bad beating her and she was one of the leaders that always gave me a hard time.

I have no fought samson, charrlotte or terra in ep. 15 yet but I don't mind if you talk about them

[Commander]

Let's see where it is. Oh here: http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15004

It's kind of hard to determine a leader's difficulty until you fight them at full force. I'd try a challenge like that before whining about a leader being too easy. Based upon that ruleset restriction, I found everyone up to Shade to be both challenging and fun (not to mention a fear of Maractus). My only complaint is Shade's Doublade. Banette does its job better and there's no Spiritomb to tank hits (I miss Spiritomb).

I can't say anything about Serra, but I'm glad Luna was knocked down that many levels. Her levels were way too high at that point in time and I feel like there was a 15 level gap between hers and my strongest. Radomus just needs help entirely (though he's difficult in Singles). I know Ame and her team addressed his Trick Room problem before. IMO Serra would benefit more in Doubles while Radomus would in singles even with the Gen VI changes.

You're supposed to lose to Garchomp so I don't think a field effect is needed there. As for Aya, it needed to happen. I'd rather her be on the easy side then to face the original Aya again (I swear to god Sludge Wave had 100% chance of poisoning at the time).

[Masquerain]

I support the opinion on the unnecessary nerfs, especially Luna and Radomus :| . Actually Samson as well and most of all, Serra. Poor Serra, I swear someone out there has a horrible grudge against her for that time in the past when she was the most OP thing..

Been watching my friend during his playthrough, he tackled all those gyms with pokemon 10levels below the leaders, and they still didn't really pose a considerable threat... Now, I'm sure that has to mean something...

Also idk if anyone there tests gym battles before a release, but if not, then they probably should.. Try test-fighting a leader with various teams like ones considered "OP", an avg team or a hard-mode team. See the outcome, decide what to change and so on.

Commander, while your run sounds cool and interesting. . I honestly think we have an issue here if one has to resort to so many self-restrictions (much like in the main pokemon games..) in order for the game to not feel so easy

[Damage]

Alright so I was wondering why gyms aren't as hard as before. My team isn't exactly all that great. No fighting type exists on it which is usually my staple. I can't check ground types and I'm pretty much unprepared for every fight but I haven't exactly struggled yet. I like the idea of Serra's field giving immense benefit but destroyable. If you want the challenge you don't have to break it and if you need help, focus sash Gigalith or Golem can EQ it. Noel missing Staraptor wouldn't have made to big a difference, I think Swellow's speed kinda wins there unless you have a Steel type like Aggron that would otherwise ruin this whole time by itself. In some cases like Charlotte while I think a nerf helps the more casual players I wont call it necessary as much as I'll say the lock out of previous areas is what hurts. If there are enough people having a hard time that even with strategies (which in a game of numbers like pokemon may not always be as helpful as they appear) maybe certain bosses need a nerf but I don't think they all should be. Reborn is a harder game than most others (pokemon or otherwise) and there should be a point maybe at the 9 badge mark where, you just need to step up to go forward. I think that's Luna. Well those are my precious 2 cents, Keep em or buy a stick of gum.

[Guzam]

Well, another problem with this is, they weren't necessarily nerfed, the AI just turned to shit. I can guarentee with better AI, the gyms would be a lot harder...

Anyway, pre-nerf Aya needed a well-deserved nerf, as did pre-nerf Serra. Aya is fine the way she is now, but I feel Serra got knocked down too many pegs, and again, I think it's mainly because of the AI.

Noel has always been tough no matter what he has. Good for him.

Radomus was really difficult back in singles, but you could honestly cheese his fight so hard with a Dark type like Drapion or Krookodile or a steel type like Magnezone, not even Focus Miss can save him. I say he should go back to singles, but he can keep the trick room theme as there are quite a few great slow psychic types.

Luna has always been iffy to me. On one hand her first time around was really tough, but had ways to beat it. The second time around, her levels are considerably lower which does take away from the difficulty, but helps with the level cap, as grinding up to her point before this "nerf" was sooooooooooo time consuming.

Samson is fine the way he is too. Same goes for Charlotte and every gym leader now.

[Commander]

Believe it or not, the run isn't as hard as it looks (I think Correy was the only insane fight so far). And as Pyrr said, the AI is all kinds of screwed up. Shelly's AI needs help (her Illumise used Dazzling Gleam when Struggle Bug would've been much better). I will say the AI wasn't too great back in the day either (though Radomus was a hax god...he switched to Gallade in on a bite! The new AI wouldn't even know what that means).

But if I had to be honest, Julia needs a buff in levels (nvm she was always like that), Florinia is pretty good as she is (her AI seemed okay), Correy is pretty spot on in Corrosive Mist (his AI is crazy though Crobat and Nidorina could use a smudge of help), Shelly has an amazing team (heck of a lot better than her Singles one), but the AI screws her over a bit, and Shade needs to drop Doublade for Dusclops or Spiritomb because it's the one Pokemon that has no idea what it's doing (his AI is also a little bit screwy but not by much). I'm not sure how any of the other leaders fair, but the essentials update horribly screwed up the AI. (Normal trainers could have super effective moves, but probably would use the move that was not very effective instead when it first released).

[Polaris]

On my first playthrough of Reborn, it took me 50 times (not even an exaggeration) to beat Aya. After playing Episode 15 all the way from the beginning, it only took me one try to beat her. I also beat Serra relatively easily, Noel as well was pretty easy. Yeah, they got nerfed pretty hard.

[Gaunt]

Commander, while your run sounds cool and interesting. . I honestly think we have an issue here if one has to resort to so many self-restrictions (much like in the main pokemon games..) in order for the game to not feel so easy

I have to agree, you gave yourself a ton of restrictions just to actually have a challenge playing the game, don't you remember that before you didn't need to "limit" yourself in any way? The game was challenging by default, most people didn't want to attempt a monolocke (for a nuzlocke it was even worse) now it's no big deal and while there are many factors involved like the "stupid" A.I., the "compensation" for the fields, the experience we accumulated to help us ecc...it still feels like every episode we lose a fraction/part of that challenge most of us like and love this game for. Ok i whined enough about it so i'll say one last thing: i will finish this game even if it becomes easy like the main series because "difficulty" is not everything there is so even if this "part" sinks the others are still there and are very good but this "nerfing the game for noobs to actually be able to continue" trend really needs to stop.

[Imperial]

On my first playthrough of Reborn, it took me 50 times (not even an exaggeration) to beat Aya. After playing Episode 15 all the way from the beginning, it only took me one try to beat her. I also beat Serra relatively easily, Noel as well was pretty easy. Yeah, they got nerfed pretty hard.

It's the contrary for me, on my first playthrough I beat Noel and Aya on the first time, while my team was not that good (I'm struggling with it in E15), while in my 2 last playthrough (mono ground and mono psychic) in E15 they were really hard. Aya was a pain for my mono ground with a field nerfing EQ, and I used a revive maybe for the first time in Reborn against Noel. Most leaders have a good potential, it's just the AI that makes them bad

[Commander]

Hmm...I'll try to tinker with the teams a bit and see if I can give them that challenge like the EP 10 version of the leaders while combining them with the field effects. I know some if it is being experienced with the game, but there have been nerfs and I'll see if I can de nerf them without going Hax Queen insane. And no, it's not going to be a challenge mode if you're wondering.

[Darvan Korematsu]

Well there's a few ways looking at this of course. Amethyst COULD have made the game difficult and left it that way from the get-go. Then again, the majority of us have already beaten the game, and Reborn is geared toward being difficult to new players. We can complain about nerfs about the leaders, but this is strictly my opinion when I believe the Gym Leaders did not have to be nerfed, although Arceus should have had one coming a long time ago. All the leaders we shouldn't forget have exploitable weaknesses almost no matter our strategy. The game charms itself with difficulty, and if you ask me, I wish the Leaders were a tad more difficult. Not stupidly unfair and overleveled, but provide some checks to the counters, I.E giving Radomus a way to deal with Escavalier like I have heard infamously spoken across the forums.

To conclude, Aya did not need to be a nerf, because there are certain Gym Leaders that need to remind you this game is not to be taken lightly. (For me it was Florinia, Aya, Noel, and Charlotte)

[Azeria]

I agree on Shade tbh,his new team feels more of a nerf...Doublade is pathetic to be honest,really doesnt add too much to his team so I'd rather see Spiritomb making a comeback,that thing really gave me trouble back in the day,bulked a lot of stuff and it has Shock Wave through Move Tutor for the field boost/abuse so it might be interesting to see it making a comeback...His Chandelure is as scary as ever though,even with only 5ivs across the board,it manages to destroy EVERYTHING in its path.

[Guzam]

Speaking of Shade, he totally needs a Mismagius. The damn thing has 105 Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed, and it gets Boosted Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, and Dazzling Gleam. For coverage it gets Mystical Fire, Power Gem, Psychic, Energy Ball/Magical Leaf, Will-o-Wisp, Dark Pulse, DBond, Nasty Plot, Icy Wind, and Confuse Ray.

Petition to give Shade a Mismagius?

[Masquerain]

I wholeheartedly agree that good AI and a few tweaks to some leaders' teams would solve many things.

Examples...

Julia is fine enough for being the first gym. Still AI applies to her as well

... Florinia could maybe run a sunny day on her team? Or use a prankster cottonee instead of having 2 cacti

Corey has been a joke for a long time :|

Shelly would be fine with better AI

Shade's doublade is useless as stated previous. Better AI here too

Kiki and Aya, I'm gonna comment further on them when I face them again, but Kiki would be fine with better AI, and I do remember Aya wasn't even remotely the threat she used to be so she ofc needs better AI as well

Serra really needs enough AI and movesets to make use of her field and not just spam signal beam/mirror shot against fire types :| ..why? because she has nothing better to spam (and I stand by what I said, it's a disgrace that her own son seemed like more of a challenge than her)

Noel would be fine with better AI (really, his clefable spamming moonblast 10 times in a row on a NVE target...)

Radomus needs to be a single battle + better AI

Luna...breaks her own field. .. I mean really.. I get earthquake is a powerful move and stuff, but her field is a big part of the reason she can even remotely be a threat, and yet her Assault Vest / Dragon Dancing (lolwut) Ttar has EQ which can break the field. I think she needs AI and some team/moveset tweaks

Charlotte didn't need the lvl nerfs imo... neither did Samson . Even so, better AI would do them good

Terra has always been an underwhelming gym for her place in the game, but hey, better AI would be good

[andrew5629]

Aya and Luna were the biggest threats for me as far as levels and teams go. Noel seemed fine to me, then again I spammed Heat Wave over and over and that just took care of everything else. I think the rest provided a fun difficulty, and wasn't overpowered in any means. I personally found it fun to put in the effort to retry and come up with new techniques. I found that as I moved on further in the game, all of the gym leaders became surprisingly easier. I blazed through Charlotte and Samson and the new gym leader was the only real difficulty I've had in quite some time.

[Polaris]

I think the game has gotten really easy and since Reborn is known for its difficulty, the leaders need to be adjusted.

[Commander]

Alright, I'm kind of looking into all the leaders and there's only a couple that need drastically changed (from what I can do) so here's what I plan on doing (note, none of this is official and can be shut down at any time):

Julia

Absolutely nothing. Maybe adding Chinchou back, but that's it

Florinia

First off, Cradily needs curse. There's no justification for a nerfed Stockpile especially with all the pokemon moved back. Breloom might get toxic orb plus Poison heal, but the rest will remain untouched because I like them.

Correy

Probably replace Nidorina with Haunter, but he's really not going to feel too much different no matter what I do. Not much else needs to be done.

Shelly

Nothing. I like her team, but her AI needs fixed. That's all.

Shade

Doublade is going to get replaced by Spiritomb. I know some of you are going to be upset with Trevenant not being replaced with Dusclops, but I could run a Sitrus Berry on that thing if it needed it. I thought the rest of the team was fine (especially when you consider Chandelure)

(Skipping Kiki through Aya for the time being)

Serra

I know Blake has the whole double monopoly on this fight, but Serra really only functions well in doubles. I don't know her current team, but Walrein is going to be dropped from the original team, but I'll bring back as many as I can. (This one will take a while). Mamoswine and Abamasnow are definitely coming back. If it works well in singles, I'll leave it like that otherwise expect a doubles fight

Radomus

Eh, I'll try and make this one a singles fight with his Trick Room team (cross your fingers). The only one I might bring back of the old team is Gallade due to a certain outfit, but anything goes with this guy. This is the last one I'll do because I hope he's fixed by then.

I can't really say anything about the others as it's been a very long time since I've faced their teams (my info is only current to EP 11/pre changes for any new leader). Another issue with leaders being so "easy" is because you're not letting them use their field effects properly. If you let them do that, they are as difficult as the pre-field effect leaders. All I'm going to do is tweak the leaders so they're a bit harder or close to the original difficulty while still letting the field effects to their thing.

[Masquerain]

Just want to add to all this ^ that as a person who never dispels fields, I can't agree they're close to their former difficulty.

(Also due to the bad AI, you'd have to purposely spam non-dmging moves to let them make use of their fields... and some still dont :| )

But anyway, that list is making things look better already, keep at it

Edited June 18, 2015 by Masquerain

[Guzam]

Why not give Shade Mismagius. It gets way more from the field than Dusclops does tbh. The thing is fast, gets multiple moves boosted by the field and has access to Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, and Pain Split. Not to mention it gets the ever so destructive move, Nasty Plot. I see no reason for Mismagius not to be on his team.

[Commander]

why not give Shade Mismagius. It gets way more from the field than Dusclops does tbh. The thing is fast, gets multiple moves boosted by the field and has access to Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, and Pain Split. Not to mention it gets the ever so destructive move, Nasty Plot. I see no reason for Mismagius not to be on his team.

I'm not doing anything that hasn't been on their teams before (also I picked Spiritomb because that's the Pokemon I shook my fist at the most against Shade). I need to finish my run before I tamper with anything so that'll come first. You also have to remember this is a machine running them, not some human.

[AuthorReborn]

I'll point out that Gallade is currently on Radomus's team. Indeed, he leads Gallade/Reuni so probably have Radomus lead Reun, tank a hit, set up trick room, and then procced to wreck havoc?

[fireheart4560]

Well I always saw reborn hard but fair so adding a substitute Mismagius would be unfair.

The beginning of the game can still be ball bustingly hard, after these nerfs mid game wound up being a joke.

Samson needed a nerf because that field effect is rng. So no matter how well you do, he can turn it around with some good luck and prayers. Though I was more or so thinking two three levels.

Speaking of Mismagius. I decided I'd use one for the first time against radomus. One nasty plot and I won. That was me taking advantage of the field effect though.

Edited June 18, 2015 by fireheart4560

[Kurotsune]

Disclaimer: The below are my opinions and mine alone, and therefore I will be disregarding other members of the development team and addressing the issues from my point of view only.

This is something I'd like to address.

First thing is the difference between what Reborn "is known for" and what Reborn's focus is.

Reborn may be known for it's difficulty, but it's focus is it's history. While, yes, the team puts considerable effort into making sure Reborn is a more challenging experience than the vanilla games (and I'm just gonna say that in regards to that, we're doing pretty well) and into making the game difficult, there are some facts that simply must be accepted.

The main one is, Reborn is never going to be difficult.

Pokémon is effectively an over-complicated rock-paper-scissors game. You're trying to guess the opponent's move while countering with your own and taking other variables in effect to control the flow of the battle.

Thing is, the machine has it's limits. And the system has it's limits. To expand to those limits we add new systems, but they have to be made fair and balanced. Someone like me, who plays the game by simply covering all their bases, can very easily defeat every gym leader in the game by just throwing whatever they're weak against. Yes, the leaders themselves have counter-measures for their most common types, but I'm going to be completely honest here and say that never was an issue for me.

Now, when we're dealing with a community where we can work under the assumption you've probably played at least one pokémon game before, we can kick things up a notch by adding a deeper level of strategy to the game.

Due to this, Reborn is much more of a mental puzzle than other pokémon titles. The leaders are considerably harder than the original games', and the game being fanmade allows us to create additional systems, like field effects, to add even more strategy to the battle system.

So we have three main issues when it comes to regulating the game's difficulty.

Those are:

1-> Difficult X Accessible

2-> The community

3-> The engine

1-> Difficult x Accessible

The first is a conundrum very common among any video game development team. How difficult can you make the game so that it remains accessible? Even games like Dark Souls, which are praised by their difficulty, are actually fairly simple in their approach. In the Souls' series case, the game becomes really easy if you master it's main focus of a passive observant approach. That usually happens naturally as the game progresses through the game, as that's what the game nudges the player towards doing.

In a similar fashion, by throwing field effect after field effect at the player, Reborn tries to make so the players want to learn how to manipulate and control them, thus making several of the battles a lot easier than they originally are. If a player does this, they're making the most of the system. If they don't and just completely ignore it - like me, to be honest - they're probably still are going to be able to go through the game without running into a complete wall.

^ That, is the main idea for Reborn's difficulty. Something that someone invested in the game can easily go through, and something that someone can still enjoy if they just want to see the next story bit.

This isn't what we have currently, but it is what we try to do. So the game won't simply get harder or easier - Later gym leaders are obviously meant to be more challenging than earlier ones, but we don't want the game to be so difficult a new player will immediately be disheartened to play due to the sheer difficulty of it.

I know this already happens, but it's not an issue that needs to be aggravated.

All in all, I think the current compromise is a good one; The game remains very fairly above the vanilla in terms of a challenge, but not so far that most people who play will be discouraged to do so.

That doesn't mean the systems don't need adjusting, however, and so threads like this are useful. Though replies like "The game is ez mode it should be hardcore make it harder gosh" are not helpful at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Seeing someone asking me to make the game harder just because they feel it should be makes me torn between making the game incredibly easy or so stupidly difficult no one could get through the first fight; Just because I'm kind of an asshole like that.

2-> The community

This is a counter-intuitive thing, but it turns out that when it comes to difficulty, you guys both help and don't.

Here's why: In one hand, having a lively community means we get more feedback (such as this thread) more frequently, allowing us to adjust the game more frequently to more properly respond to our target audience's desires. While my main job is not as a game developer, I can say my stance as a developer is that I'd rather focus my product to the ones that enjoy it, rather than dumb it down to the ones who don't. (Looking at you, EA)

But the side-effect of a large bustling community like this is that you guys crack the code. Quickly.

Days after the episode is released for beta testing in the Nightclub, most pokémon and items have already been traced and discovered; More than thirty people have already completed the game, and tactics are already out in the open about how to completely destroy a boss.

That's amazing teamwork, and you guys are awesome for it. The unfortunate reality is, however, that we can't hope to compete.

The game is always going to be easy as long as there are people discussing it and coming up with tactics and strategies, as well as guides on how to get the best available pokémon step-by-step. And that's fine; I personally believe the game should be played in the current episode, within the constraints placed therein, and using everything available there. That also means catching event pokémon, so go for it.

But that means the game will be easier and in fact, become easier and easier as time progresses and tactics to defeat gym leaders are more well-developed.

One good example I can mention is Julia.

Using toxic spikes on her is such an effective tactic that there is almost no change we can make to her other than a complete rework of her team that'd make it no longer a simple battle. And personally, I'm fine with that. It just means you're putting effort into it, community. Good on you. Have a cookie.

3 -> The Engine

I'll be direct. The AI is crap. Unless I rewrite it from scratch - and I've been tempted - it'll still be crap. We can tweak and adjust it as we will, but polishing a turd, alas, does not make it a diamond. The AI is bad, it should feel bad, and it's staying bad in the foreseeable future. Sucks to be us.

To counter this, field effects have been created, but field effects can't be a clear advantage to a pokémon or a boss battle - Though, as we approach end-game, we may be adding some that break that rule (there's one I've come up with and I'm particularly thrilled about... But it's gotta be saved for a special occasion) but in general, field effects need to be easy to counter. So they are. If the tradeoff is that gym leaders aren't going to be that hard for it, well, that's just tough luck.

To detail further, the AI works on a very simple point algorithm that if one put effort towards they could easily crack and control - I've done it, it's fun to never lose - and unless we recreate this system in a more complex manner, which is not a valid use of resources if I'm to be frank, or Essential fixes it's shit, which seems unlikely, it's staying that way.

I'm not writing this post to say threads discussing the difficulty are unnecessary, mean, or anything else. I think they're great feedback and provide us information on what you're thinking, but I wanted to clarify a few things in regards to why Reborn "is not that hard after all" and add a caveat;

Keep discussing these things, and keep making us aware. However, don't simply ask us what we can't do; We can't make the game hard because of the constraints above, and to keep those in mind when suggesting alterations to the game will not only optimize the chances of your advice getting through the game, it'll also help us when we come looking for valid feedback.

[Commander]

I have to agree with Kurostone on a lot of his points. I briefly mentioned the AI is crap, has been, always will be. The AI just works enough for what it needs to be so I guess that's that. But field effects are kind of the thing that helps improve the Leader difficulty (and yes it does help). Reborn is still a heck of a lot harder than main games so I can't complain too much.

I'm still probably going to play with Serra and make her broken as hell again though.

[Odybld]

*looking with expectant puppy eyes, begging Kuro to rewrite the AI*

I agree with most of Kuro's points, I'd like to add couple more

-the Shofu gauge:

Having seeing most of the mid and late gym battles in Shofu's playthrough, he steamrolled pre-fields Noel and Aya, the longtime so-called "nerfed" leaders, beat Serra (with her weather acting as a quasi field) only by exploiting a bug, beat Radomous in singles fairly easily, had a really hard time against Bennett and Luna in Iolia (Luna, for chrissake) and got his ass famously whooped by Samson, Charlotte and to a lessr extent T3RR4. I agree with Kuro, we're getting smarter here, we use the fields to our benefit, and I'd say that casual players may find them adding to the difficulty

-the gimmick problem:

My No1 problem with some leaders. Radomous could stay in singles, but he has a Trick Room team with an AI that never uses Trick Room, so he can give the TM to the player. I don't see it being reasonable. Either have the leader give a better TM to avoid gimmicks that don't held, or have them say "that's what you get and I'm doing you a favour, if you don't like it shove it up your bag and never use it". I haven't fought Shade's new team, but I'm no fan of Banette or Trevenant, the propable Shadow Claw users. He doesn't have to use Shadow Claw to give Shadow Claw. Also, Shadow Ball's SE coverage is literally Kiki's Medicham and Radomous. Also the new Serra, who I spent a day beating and rebattling like a kid playing with a doll till the doll ends up undressed, missing limbs and with clear bite marks, is very restricted, and also damaged by her own field. Nature Power - Mirror Shot murders her. Lucky Chant stops her at her tracks. She has no Water-Ice types, for God's sake. Her field and team gimmick turns against them.

-the levels problem

I think that's the reason the levels were readjusted. The higher the levels, the more exp they require, so we can't jump 5 levels with every gym. I personally like to train more than 6 'mons and always end up wildly underleveled. For the E-15 leader, the most work was put by two mons that finished the battle at lvl 71 and 68. Unless we want to go over 100, there had to be made an adjustment (and I hope, really hope it gets reflected on the cap) so we can partially follow the leaders and not constantly be significantly underleveled. At the same time, this mechanism has to protect the leaders somehow.

Also Ame took far away in the game my secret ace and I'm SOUR CREAM about it.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Odybld