The -DREAM- Fan Game Experience Thread

[Chase]

Attention other Forum Moderators: I wasn't sure if this thread was more suited for the Pokemon Fan Club or the Fan-Game Expo. Please move this thread accordingly. Thanks! - <3 HW

Hey guys.

As I was taking a shower today I had the wonderful urge to play Reborn...yet again. (There's probably a gazillion threads of mine with the same opening sentence.....Geez....) and I got to thinking about what makes Reborn enjoyable for me and what makes me want to pull my hair out. We've all been there with this particular game that brings us all together, and if you're still here, either you like some of these folks a whole lot, or you think the "Pros" Reborn brings to the table greatly outweigh the "Cons."

I -then- decided I wanted to think of a list of things -I- would aim for if -I- were a lead developer for a Pokemon fan-game. For those of you on budding projects, such as the gang working on Se7en, some of my ideas (and those that others come up with and share because they disagree with me!) could be something you factor into the game-play aspect of your project. For those with some degree of fleshed out product (Ame, Jan, etc.) you can consider the ideas in this thread for future endeavors or rewrites after-the-fact.

WARNING: Many of my points will contain what may be considered negative feedback on Reborn, as it will be the game I use as a basis for familiarity with most readers. Let it be known that I -LOVE- Reborn. The game is the reason I showed up to this community in the first place, and I've gained so much from it, including friends and opportunities nobody else would give me. I'm eternally in Ame's debt. - That being said, this list is 100% my "opinion" - and as such won't be agreeable with anyone, even the game developers, throughout. In fact, I'm not very agreeable with Ame most of the time, but it's okay because she still loves me anyway. <3

Also, if you are in process of playing the game, there -may- be spoilers ahead that I won't spoiler-tag for the sake of continuation and clarity. Read at your own risk.

10. Redemption for Hidden Machines and Emphasis on Exploration.

It's a pretty popular opinion that NOBODY likes Hidden Machines - in MOST Pokemon titles, main-series or not. Hidden Machines serve an exploration purpose, giving the player the sense of clearing an obstacle in order to progress, effectively making him or her a trailblazer along the way. However, traveling the world of Pokemon has a distinctly linear feel, which limits the ability Trainers have to actually value the HMs as valuable moves. They are not nearly as effective in battle, and in most games cannot be conventionally removed from a 'mons moveset. However, this can be greatly changed if there was less of an emphasis on linear travel. Imagine playing through the entire storyline and beating the Champion, only to find out you only visited roughly HALF of the region you now reign supreme over. To see perhaps the best implementation of HM usage, look at X/Y - games that focused more on HMs being beneficiary exploration tools and less mindless obstacle clearing moves. Cut, Surf, Waterfall, Rock Smash, and Strength were used more to obtain things like TMs and battle items such as Leftovers, and were for the most part completely optional. Expanding on this to make whole AREAS of the map, perhaps hidden towns and villages, Pokemon you wouldn't find on the standard routes, accessible would arguably redeem the Hidden Machine, and if implemented correctly, wouldn't be so essential for completing the story if you choose to play straight through.

9. Either a more difficult experience -OR- Toggle-able difficulty.

Reborn's bell-cow experience is that it's HARD in comparison to the main-series titles. I do feel like that's almost an essential part of the fan-game build-up however. If you as a developer are not willing to push the envelope here, then at least try to make a mechanic akin to Black/White where there was a "Hard Mode" version of the game. There's a lot of nitpicky ways developers -should- go about installing and preserving difficulty in their games, some of which Reborn does miss the mark on in my opinion, but if the game is harder than the usual product, it's probably more memorable than the usual product. And that's -always- a good thing....unless it's too hard for some reason.

8. Networking Capability

I don't know how many of you guys have read of Kurotsune's recent endeavor, but in the future it may be possible to battle and trade with friends through Reborn. Fan games are prone to being very lacking in post game content, so the ability to battle and trade really does expand the game in a great way. It's still really innovative and I'm not making any promises, but stuff like this is AMAZING and will really provide incentive for pressing on - especially if the fan game is free and you have access to the internet.

7. AVOID Level Caps.

I understand the argument for implementing this mechanic- but I don't think players like this mechanic so much as they like the effect it has on the game's boss-battles, and thus I do believe another solution is possible. The problem level caps pose is that they force the player's hand depending on the difficulty level of the game and other variables, and in a Role-Playing-Game like Pokemon where the player is rewarded with nearly infinite choice, forcing a certain strategy isn't always the best mechanic. While avoiding the criticism of being "grind-heavy" is good by enforcing players not have the level advantage over the NPCs, it limits the players' choice and can really be the bane of pure autonomy-centered players who would rather do things their own way over drawing inside the lines. Of course, I -DO- understand how level caps uphold difficulty, but there are other ways to be anti-grind than outright capping. My suggestion here involves the players MONEY returns. If a player grinds -past- a suggested stopping level and uses the Pokemon in battle or has it on his or her team, the player is rewarded with less MONEY than he or she would normally receive. Things like that make suggestions to stop and try to use strategy and defend the game's difficulty overall because money is an essential part of a player's run, while ALSO not stomping on the player's ability to make his or her own decisions.

6. Pokemon should be distributed to reward exploration in ALL senses, not just in Side-questing!

When placing Pokemon, it's very easy for fan games to emphasize a certain method of unlocking the better 'mons to use. Reborn has a strong beckoning toward side-quests and that's an executive decision. Perfectly okay, but not how -I- would do it if I were in Ame's shoes. Think back to the days when you found a Pokemon by complete accident just because you were looking around an area for fun. For me, that Pokemon was Chansey in the Kanto Safari Zone. Assuming HMs unlock a lot more map like in suggestion 10, many of the better mons can be hunted for as they are in main-series games - by complete luck - and the way Pokemon are discovered can be more homely and less dependent on talking to every single NPC in the game. The call isn't to remove side-questing in favor of more good 'mons in the tall grass, but to make it so that your community doesn't tell you that all of the quest mons are the keys to winning the game. Even distribution is key as it allows all of the enjoyable experiences of a main-series Pokemon game to be had, while also allowing for new experiences.

5. Appeal to Completionists

For a Pokemon title, this is pretty simple. Fan games should always have all Pokemon available upon completion, the day must be saved, and the player should always be the Pokemon League champion at the very end of the journey. However, if you add more mechanics, such as achievements like those in Gen 5, as well as side-quests that don't give Pokemon rewards, those should be listed in some sort of clean interface so that players can try to complete the game 100%. Catch 'Em All.

4. The evil organization needs to have NPCs that make you question your position -and- "Judas Iscariot" figures.

The shock value and effectiveness the antagonists will posess rests solely on it's personalities. Being betrayed registers as a memorable and effective aspect of games like Reborn, while topics that make the player question his or her perception of the events that are transpiring or their own morality to an extent (Again, Black and White) leave lasting impressions, at least for me, on the game as a whole.

3. The background of the entire journey has to be SENSIBLE.

At the risk of hurting the fantasy element of the franchise, the ideal fan game has to have a storyline the player can comprehend before it can make any appeals to the player at all. Evil organizations need reasonable motives. The story moments need to add gravity to the play-through. Some alliances with NPCs need to be supplementary to the situation at hand and not out of the blue all of the time. Cohesiveness wins the day when dealing with story elements, and in order to be cohesive, the story has to be able to make sense.

2. Steer clear of power creep

Mega-Evolution may be the advent of a very bad time in Pokemon. For now, it's not so bad and even makes a lot of Pokemon considerable when they normally wouldn't be - but it's mechanics like this that bring players out of touch with the game.

1. Don't fix what isn't broken.

The game is a fan game - it has to resemble the games in the main series and have a familiar feel to them in they way they are played.

[Peepeepoopoo]

The option to be on the other team would be nice. That's present in Reborn to some extent (siding with that loser instead of Radomus) but it would be refreshing to have the option go complete bad apple without getting a "game over" screen.

[ZEL]

^Oh shiiiet, I like that thought very much. Where can I sign up?

Overall, I agree with pretty much everything except the level cap, though I have mixed thoughts on that one. I don't mind the level cap and actually think it adds some nice difficulty during battles (*grumbles about half my team overlevelling during the Fiore Mansion battles*), but it's true that there are other, less restrictive ways of encouraging people to not overlevel.

What really sold Reborn for me were the story and characters.

I started playing the game knowing that it was supposed to be difficult, and that it has dark plot elements.

I don't think that alone would have been enough to keep me interested (since a lot of time, people go way over the top with the dark, and give it a bad execution), but I fell in love with Reborn's characters pretty much from the start. (Well, okay, not entirely from the start, but definitely as soon as I met Florinia.)

To me, one of the great things about fan content is that it can go where the original material wouldn't go.

The canon games just don't get this grim, and the fact that fan games can do it, that's awesome.

Take this thing I love, and use it to explore stories that the canon doesn't tell.

So overall, point 4 is one of the most important for me, but not just restricted to the "evil" team.

Reborn frequently frustrates my feelings by showing me sympathetic villains... and morally questionable allies.

Saphira and Titania, I'm looking at you especially.

The question of "Are you sure you're doing the right thing?" is really brought to the surface here.

Something that's been haunting me a bit, though: the possibility of good and bad endings.

Now, that's a pretty personal thing, and I know there's gonna be more than enough people who would disagree with me, but I don't like complete downer endings in games, and what I especially don't like is the possibility of getting a bad ending when a good one is also possible, without clear indication which one I'm heading towards.

For me, it takes away a lot of the rewarding feeling I'm getting from playing a video game, if the ending lets me down.

I understand the appeal, and I actually love it in books or movies.

But if it's a game, in which I spent hours and hours working on my mission to complete the story, then I want the reward.

I want to save the... world/character/whatever the story is trying to do. I'm not playing to lose.

Playing through Reborn and knowing that there are several choices that affect events in the game, I am always worried that my choice will somehow stop me from getting the most out of my experience. Not necessarily in side quests/plots, but for the bigger picture.

Yes, sure, I can replay the game any time, but I'd be bummed still, because usually, my first playthrough gives me the most intense emotions.

But yea, bit personal. I know lots of people love ths stuff x3

Edited July 19, 2015 by Ama

[Deleted User]

Don't be afraid to go outside the box, try to avoid cookie cutter concepts

Everyone knows certain things about pretty much every Pokemon game. You start the game, talk to a professor, pick a fire, water, or grass pokemon. Fight 8 (or 18) Gym leaders fight an evil organization defeat the Elite 4 and the rest is just fleshing it out. Some of these same old tactics can grow tiresome to the more experienced pokemon players. So long as you take the time and effort to think things over you'll be able to come up with different unique concepts. The thing that drew me to Reborn watching shofu's LP Episode 1 in the first place was that EVERY starter was made available from the get go. 'THIS IS SO NEAT, look at all the choices I can make and WOW'. Try and find places where you can make changes to the way things work, replace the professor with some other profession for the role that will serve the same purpose. Maybe make the starters not FWG. All in all just take some steps to differentiate your game from the same old same old. One of the best examples I can think of when it comes to Reborn in this regard nowadays would be the dreaded field effects. It adds a unique interesting dynamic that individualizes it from other games. Some of the inspired fan games around here have followed suit because it was a good idea, something Reborn is ultimately remembered for. If you make your game like everyone else, I will likely forget it like everyone else.

P.S. While I wasn't too fond of Snakewood, I'll certainly remember it, and many others will as well.

Be original, be different
Be the one that stand up and shocks this system

[Tomas Elliot]

Well, I really appreciate this topic Hilda. Allow me to address your points as far as Se7en is concerned:

10) Everyone in Se7en agrees with you on this one and in fact, while the first chapter will include a rather straightforward area (what with it being the very beginning etc), later chapters will put a lot of emphasis on exploration. Some areas, like the desert, the dungeon inspired to Ayers Rock and at least one jungle area (if not two) will be HUGE, with a lot of different things to do and different Pokemon to catch.

9) Se7en is going to feature a 100% original Pokedex, and IMO tht is enough to make gym battles VERY difficult (and normal battles as well, to a lesser extent). I mean, you are facing a full team of Pokmon you mostly have never seen before, you know nothing about their stats, secondary typing, and moves, so you have no way to prepare in advance, you cannot say "I will just catch this Pokemon, have it learn that move, and then I win", because you don't know what works and what doesn't until you try. So yeah, I think that is enough of a challenge on our part. We will not implement a "hard mode" because we are being faced with enough complications with the coding without going that far ;-;

8) No. Absolutely no. No way. Sorry, but this is not to be. It is WAY beyond our capabilities, there is no chance in hell we can implement this... At least, not before the post game. We have no guarantees that our playerbase will be large enough to justify haveing a network system, and considering that, as mentioned, we don't even have the ability to implement it, overstepping our limits for the sake of doing something that might very well bomb is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

7) Another point on which I disagree, and on which I really cannot look for a compromise with you: we are going to release our game episodically and, considering our IRL problems, there will be at least one month between a chapter and the next one. So yeah, without a level cap people could simply spend that month level grinding, and then plow through the game unopposed. I myself hate the level cap, but it is a necessary evil.

6) This is a point I agree with wholeheartedly, and I know the rest of the Se7en staff do too. And in fact, each area WILL have at least one "ultra rare" Pokemon, that is, a Pokemon with an insanely low chance of appearing... And again, keep in mind that we will feature a full Pokedex of original Pokemon, about which you won't know anything: the majority of them will actually be completely unknown to you, as we are not planning to announce them all... So yeah, the thrill of wandering an area and suddenly bumping in a Pokemon you had never een before by mere chance is something that we WILL have. As a matter of fact, this is one of the main selling points of our game

5) It will probably happen in the post game, but we will have this too.

4) A villain who is not so blatantly, make-hypocritical-claims-then-kick-Munna evil, uh? Well, I cannot spoil anything but... I think you will like Se7en

3) See the above, and keep in mind that we have Hukuna on board (and I myself am pretty good at planning plots if I do say so myself, and our other staffers are clever guys too).

2) We are not featuring Mega Evolution at all, as we feel that the whole Mega Evolution thing was born as a way to introduce more diversity to the game and attract more customers... An added attraction, if you will. And we don't need it, because the fact that we feature 150+ original Pokemon is all the attraction we need. This being said, there are many Pokemon in Se7en that, if taken out of context, would probably be considered "broken" in the current SD metagame, but in the context of Graterras metagame I dare say we managed to achieve a nice balance, each Pokemon has its counters and there are no Pokemon so good you have no reason not to run them... And there aren't Pokemon so bad you have no reason to run them either.

1) Don't worry, I am beating a certain member of our project (who would LOVE to introduce more... Ah, excessively innovative stuff) over the head with this every day

[Chase]

I can definitely see a cap being necessary due to the way the game is released.

...if only there were some way to stop the player from gaining experience after they reached the end of the available upload.

[Tomas Elliot]

I can definitely see a cap being necessary due to the way the game is released.

...if only there were some way to stop the player from gaining experience after they reached the end of the available upload.

Here is the thing: even if you make it so that no more trainer battles are available after reaching the end of the chapter, there are still wild Pokemon. There are only 3 ways of preventing players from level grinding against wild Pokemon: making it so the game literally becomes impossible to play after reaching the end of the episode, your character being unable to do anything untill the new update is released; making it so the game stop giving you EXP for beating wild Pokemon after reaching the ending point of the chapter, EXO being unlocked upon downloading the new update; and of course, the level cap. You will admit that, compared to those other two methods, the level cap is not that unfair/bothersome, is it? I mean, potential players would hate the other two much more IMO.

[Chase]

I personally would stop experience gain from any sources (trainers or Pokemon) if it were possible.

I think that harsh prize-money cuts coupled with barred experience gain still benefits players who prefer choice over forced problem solving. As a player, having choice is something I personally value in Pokemon games > so I wouldn't subject other players to playing the game on "my" terms if there's a way they can play on their own.

Especially if you could still catch new Pokemon and especially-especially if you would battle/re-battle trainers and get no experience - but earn money, I would still be able to find reasonable amounts of game time after the end of an episode.

If that scenario wasn't possible, I would prefer the cap to preserve the integrity of my future releases - but if it can be helped like the situation above, I would be inclined in my own game to put experience on hold. I absolutely don't think the cap is "unfair" and it's only bothersome from a preference perspective and not really a "holy crap this makes the game hard" perspective.

---

I'll still play Se7en with or without the cap - and with whatever you folks decide to roll with. I was just posting this thread for discussion sake.

[BIGJRA]

I do like the idea of a hard cap - that is that once a Pokemon reaches, say, level 25, it cannot gain any exp until you get the badge. I'm pretty sure Pokemon Aegis has this; if Tomas or anyone working on a fan game wanted to do it it certainly seems possible.

[Chase]

now a HARD cap is another solution I didn't think about. If you weren't PUNISHED for "maxing" a Pokemon by going "overboard" like in Reborn, but unable to grind above the cap, it prevents the player from getting too overpowered while rendering the need for backwards rare candies and caution unnecessary.

Reborn kinda operates on a soft cap - where the Pokemon can go over the cap, but it stops listening to you even if it's not a traded Pokemon, making using it ineffective.

I personally would only use this in effect with the LAST available gym leader to prevent experience farming during the time the next episode is in development.

[crashteamalphing]

Great topic!

6) is an interesting point! I wanted to go the Reborn way and create as many events as possible, but having rare Pokemon in the tall grass, or even having "rare" patches of grass with unique Pokemon sounds like a great idea that should be expanded on!

5) is also great. I had the idea a while back of GTA style collectable items spread across the map that you could find (and that wouldn't be searchable with ItemFinder), and an explicit % of the game beat written somewhere, so that completionists could try to beat the game 100%!

[Fumble]

Personally, I think the level cap is somewhat necessary for those who think grinding equals instant victory. If I implement it in my future game, though, the level caps would be every 10 levels, since I plan on having seven or eight "Gyms", so the level caps won't be too much of a hassle and you most likely will never go over the cap without grinding. I might answer each individually once I continue work on my game, but this is the main point. Overall, nice list, Hilda!

[Chase]

I could just make everything more and more expensive as the journey goes along and -then- enforce the pay-cuts. I would do my very best to make sure it wasn't Grind2Win. The big issue with grinding being your best solution in most cases - is that you use a lot of consumables.

Other rough ideas.

Pokemon above the level cap cannot use a Pokemon Center to heal up - forcing consumables to be used.

Pokemon above the level cap can't learn new moves, including Technical Machines and Hidden Machines.

A Pokemon may not evolve by any evolution method so long as they are above the level cap.

[Deleted User]

A Pokemon may not evolve by any evolution method so long as they are above the level cap.

That is one I'd actually like to see implemented. It's far too easy in Reborn when the level cap is say... 35, to get that pokemon that evolves at 36 an extra level and evolve it, and then just bump it right back down. The evolution in that case is going to do more than the extra level or two. Another thing that -would- be good to implement in my opinion is the calculation for Gen 5 exp gain. Meaning if you have a high level pokemon and fight a level 4 rattata you get like 2 EXP, not worth the time. So grinding at higher levels becomes exponentially less and less effective.

[Tomas Elliot]

Most of the solutions you have suggested are honsetly complicated to implement: the Reborn-esque level cap has the fact that it is vert easy to implement going for it...

You do make valid points tho. I will discuss the matter with out coders over at Se7en and see what they say

[Deleted User]

Most of the solutions you have suggested are honsetly complicated to implement: the Reborn-esque level cap has the fact that it is vert easy to implement going for it...

You do make valid points tho. I will discuss the matter with out coders over at Se7en and see what they say

I can't imagine implementing an evolution restriction would be -too- difficult. I haven't tinkered with it myself though.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

One thing that I've always wanted to see more in the main series, and that I like Reborn and the other fangames here for, is side quests. I like side quests, sometimes even more than the main adventure.

The main series has a few, but they're less common than NPCs asking for trades. I don't consider those sidequests, just a way to obtain a Pokemon that's otherwise rare or hard to find. The kind of sidequests I'm referring to are ones where you explore an area that you otherwise might not have known existed, do someone a favor, solve a puzzle, etc. Ones where you actually do something and/or interact with the environment. I want to put a lot of these in the fangame I'm working on.

@the level cap: whatever the restrictions/consequences are, I've always felt that enemy trainers shouldn't go over the level cap. A single, powerful Pokemon like the giant Steelix is fine, since it's one vs presumably a team and realistically you would come across extraordinarily powerful Pokemon like that once in a blue moon ice cream. But when it's someone like a Gym Leader with a whole team, it just feels like they're cheating. That they can't beat me without leveling past the point where I should be able to. My team in Reborn is in the high 80s, my Rejuvanation team is a little past 70, and I've been overleveled in both games since before the first Gym, so I may be a hypocrite. The player is actually penalized for going over, though.

I've also always thought Gym Leaders and Elite Four should rely less on potions and more on held items. I've always thought battles like those were supposed to be battles of wits, so when they keep using potion after potion, it kills the mood. Whereas held items are very strategic because they're designed to boost performance, cover for one of the holder's flaws, hurt the opponent for attacking a certain way, etc. If you take away healing items for bosses, though, you probably also have to take them away from the player in those battles to make it fair. I personally don't use healing items unless it's a long way back to the Pokemon Center and I don't feel like going, but some people might not like/agree with not being able to use their items.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Ice Cream Sand Witch

[Chase]

I -do- like the side-quests content wise. Extra lore and interaction with NPCs that you find just by talking to them are very good things. I just don't think that a Pokemon should be the reward 99 percent of the time. In Reborn, where the region is supposed to be barren, it makes sense story-wise to have all of those side-quests due to the region only now recovering from years of near-apocalyptic decay. It -does- provide the stigma that you need to "Side-Quest-2-Win" - which shouldn't be the case because it's a "side-quest" and not a main plotline, but at least there's a narrative behind it. Not my favorite mechanic in Reborn, but it's far from the least favorite due to being salvaged by common sense and lore.

I think Reborn's gym battles are ideal - keeping the Potion-spam tendency over having things like Choice Scarf, Eviolite, or Berry Juice in Julia's case. .......That wouldn't be fun. In my opinion - the challenge, especially in the earlier gyms, should be presented by the Pokemon's synergy and any strategical motiff the team may be built around - such as Boomburst > Self-Destruct, or being a Sand team.

There's also original game mechanics, like Field Effects, in fan games that could potentially be there. To me, if a Gym Leader is potting up, it gives off the impression that they want to win as badly as I do.

[star-kin]

!!

you make a good point!

but...about the level cap..

wouldn't it be easier...if a Pokemon above the level cap's experience -the ones it was supposed to get from the battle- get stored somewhere? like a EXP. bank or something. because honestly the only thing I hate about the level caps are the waste of EXP.!

you can even choose which 'mon gets all that experience, for the lower-leveled ones?

something similar to that of the Shadow Pokemon in Rejuv!

[fireflame]

I personally would like for game that feature choices (including Pokemon games) to have choices that directly impact the story. I know it's more time and coding, but it'll make it a more dynamic story. I read a article in some gaming blog that said that most games with the option for the player to choose things don't really affect the story much, you just get to the same result.

I would like to see a Pokemon game that's essentially a 'choose your own adventure' thing. The choices you make will make family members love or hate you more, will make bad guys reconsider their position on life, will drive your rival away for a short time, will make a gym leader quit, will make a girl/guy you save infatuated with you and want to follow you on your journey, will bring out your inner darkness, among many other possibilities. Having options that lead to these results will make a game more dynamic. Just a thought.

Edited July 24, 2015 by fireflame