Youtube Comments

[Amethyst]

I want to bring this status update into an actual discussion.

And yes, nobody's actually going to lynch someone for a negative comment, but the verbal spats people break into down there aren't much prettier. I think anyone who's looked at a Youtube comment section in the history of ever knows that this sort of stuff is prevalent everywhere.

But like, do you guys realize that this is something that -can- be helped?

As applied to Reborn, I've been disappointed when I've seen people in comments' sections saying things rude things. Even if they are in defense of Reborn, nobody is benefited from talking about other games as if they're trash. We can be better than that.

Suzerain works hard on Insurgence. And it's different from my game, but also very similar, and a lot of people enjoy both. A lot of people only enjoy one or the other, and that's fine too. But many people, I think, also forget this:

Just because the games are similar does not mean they have to be compared.

One being good, or even 'better' does not make the other one bad.

One existing does not prevent anyone from enjoying the other.

If these were marketed games, they might have a reason to compete against each other, but as free games, each one loses literally nothing from the other existing. In fact I would even say they're helped by each other because there is a lot of overlapped interest which spreads from one game to the others. And that means that during development times, you guys can go play Insurgence, go play Rejuvenation, and when those are in development you can play Reborn. One way or another you can always get your daily dose of fangame.

So like, what's the problem here?

I acknowledge that in a case like the linked status update you might feel like you're coming to the defense of Reborn by, for instance, calling Insurgence trash, but that's really just making the problem worse. -And- it makes us look bad (at least for anyone who is ignorant enough to lump all fans of a game into one boat, which, while silly, has happened with Reborn and probably will again).

The people who go out and disrespect other games are not doing the project a favor. It certainly doesn't make me happy, even as Reborn's creator, to see people disparaging others' work just because they like mine better. I can't speak for Suze, but I would be surprised if he disagreed with that much as well. I would rather us turn the other cheek.

Obviously I can't ask you guys to do or not do anything outside of this community, but, at the least, maybe think about who's being benefited by your comment.

[foovy10]

I want to bring this status update into an actual discussion.

And yes, nobody's actually going to lynch someone for a negative comment, but the verbal spats people break into down there aren't much prettier. I think anyone who's looked at a Youtube comment section in the history of ever knows that this sort of stuff is prevalent everywhere.

But like, do you guys realize that this is something that -can- be helped?

As applied to Reborn, I've been disappointed when I've seen people in comments' sections saying things rude things. Even if they are in defense of Reborn, nobody is benefited from talking about other games as if they're trash. We can be better than that.

Suzerain works hard on Insurgence. And it's different from my game, but also very similar, and a lot of people enjoy both. A lot of people only enjoy one or the other, and that's fine too. But many people, I think, also forget this:

Just because the games are similar does not mean they have to be compared.

One being good, or even 'better' does not make the other one bad.

One existing does not prevent anyone from enjoying the other.

If these were marketed games, they might have a reason to compete against each other, but as free games, each one loses literally nothing from the other existing. In fact I would even say they're helped by each other because there is a lot of overlapped interest which spreads from one game to the others. And that means that during development times, you guys can go play Insurgence, go play Rejuvenation, and when those are in development you can play Reborn. One way or another you can always get your daily dose of fangame.

So like, what's the problem here?

I acknowledge that in a case like the linked status update you might feel like you're coming to the defense of Reborn by, for instance, calling Insurgence trash, but that's really just making the problem worse. -And- it makes us look bad (at least for anyone who is ignorant enough to lump all fans of a game into one boat, which, while silly, has happened with Reborn and probably will again).

The people who go out and disrespect other games are not doing the project a favor. It certainly doesn't make me happy, even as Reborn's creator, to see people disparaging others' work just because they like mine better. I can't speak for Suze, but I would be surprised if he disagreed with that much as well. I would rather us turn the other cheek.

Obviously I can't ask you guys to do or not do anything outside of this community, but, at the least, maybe think about who's being benefited by your comment.

Im going to point out that i love the insurgence games as much as reborn and respect them. I just thought it would be funny to see the reactions of some of the people in the reborn community. If you would like i will delete the post, but i did not say anywhere in my post that i disagreed with the comment. both games are very different but at the same time very fun. I ENCOURAGE ppl to try out insurgence if you haven't cuz its a amazing game with many features.

[Angelphil]

Personally, I LOVE both games, For that reason I would support a collab between you guys if that could ever happen

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Yeah, I'm not really fond of the tactic of promoting one thing by putting down another thing.

[SnowGlaceon]

INCOMING ESSAY

I literally write these without trying.

I said this in the status update, but I'll say it again here. Some people hate on things just for the hell of it. On YouTube, and just about anywhere else on the Internet, you will find people like this. Even worse than this are the people who seem to think their opinion is the "right" one and therefore everyone must have that idea. But if we all shared the same ideas, what would make us different? People are allowed to love and hate the game. Unfortunately, they can also be rude about their opinions since no one can really do anything about it. Some people, many of them actually, say rude and irrational things for attention. They want you to tell them off, rant, curse, caps lock, whatever. These are the trolls. Do not feed the trolls.

This comment was found on one of Shofu's videos. You will find a lot, and I mean A LOT, of these kinds of comments on his videos, especially for Reborn, Rejuv, and Insurgence. Know that the people watching his video generally aren't there for playthrough and information purposes, but for entertainment. They could care less about the game. Many of them, including Shofu, do not understand the game for a variety of reasons. Field effects, Story line, whatever. Since it's not the "normal" Pokemon experience, they don't like it. Be it too complicated for them, though I can see how, or too long, too difficult, doesn't matter. It's their loss. Reborn isn't for everyone, neither is insurg or rejuv. Let them enjoy their easier, more simple games. We have something better.

Now if you're anything like me, when you see such a comment your first reaction has something to do with murder. Then you feel the urge to prove them wrong, defend the game. I don't know if Ame would agree, but I believe that if you want to defend the game, go ahead, and tell them how amazing it is. But you should understand that opinions do not change easily, so don't go in expecting/trying to change theirs. It's probably not gonna happen, sorry. Also, be respectful and keep a cool head. Watch your words. The moment you start attacking them, you are no better than them and you look like the bad guy. We don't want that, and no one likes comment wars.

Also keep in mind that watching and playing a game are two different things. If they haven't played it, they have no room to speak then suggest that they do before making such a statement.

TLDR: I don't do these, I'm terrible at them.

Just my two cents.

[mde2001]

Yeah, for some reason people always go down on other games to put up another game. I personally like Reborn more than Insurgence (though I play both) and if someone asks me which one I like more I'll tell them I like Reborn more. However I agree there is nothing good about putting down another game and I support the development of games even that I don't enjoy.

Another great message Ame!

[DashingStorm]

Personally, I'm against what shofu comments during his Insurgence playthroughs saying he doesn't have to "deal with bullshit field effects or overpowered Gym Leaders". Imo, that's a sign of not learning how to adapt to a game and work around said field/leader's setups.

He does it in ORAS, why not be able to adapt ORAS strats (or even BW2) to Reborn?

That's the only thing that shofu says that makes me cringe and turn off his videos when he makes those remarks. He's a somewhat competitive Pokémon player like myself, and you only really have to do one thing when you come across an unexpected (dis)advantage; You deal with it. Adapt your strategies, re-work your team(s) around a bit and try again without sulking too much and/or tossing out spiteful comments like that.

I won't say this in a personal comment towards him because it'd engage flame wars against Reborn, but there's my opinion.

That being said, I'm enraged that people would make comments to defend or bash on other people's games. Games are as good as they can get, and for games such as Insurgence/Rejuvenation/Reborn, none of them should be either bashed/defended upon by others. Sure, to each their own personal opinion(s), but come on. We (or at least the majority) are mature enough to look beyond all this, I presume.

[Frostilicious]

Having played both Omicron/Zeta and Insurgence as well as Reborn and Rejuvenation to the full of them -at least as of their current release status- -and might i add multiple times each-, i believe i am able to state my opinion freely. I find reborn a much well worked project and i really do respect Ame's and her crew's work like i stated the other time in showdown.

Rejuvenation is pretty much following that concept and Jan is putting in effort to make his game well worked as well and for the most part he has achieved it. Suzerain is doing the same about insurgence but in a different way. Instead of creating fields, for example, he is adding different stuff to the game. I did enjoy playing insurgence and zeta/omicron, but after having played reborn and rejuvenation, i just found those too easy and unchallenging for the most part. But that's just me, wanting things a bit more tricky and challenging. That doesn't mean i lost my respect to Suze or his games.

To sum up, i really feel a respect to every single game developer out there and honestly, i wish i had their skills and knowledge to be able to do the same thing as them, but since i don't i can at least enjoy their games and congratulate them .

Edited August 19, 2015 by timbla

[Juniper]

I have never played insurgence, but it's common sense not to say something that someone else likes is bad because they said something you like is bad..

now IF the person who had commented that was the CREATOR of Insurgence, then pointing out a few flaws in their own game could cut them down to size. without being insulting of course. Reborn is the best rom I've played so far though (Partially because of the community that goes with it) Mostly because of Cain..

[Darvan Korematsu]

Well crap. As much as I don't wanna, I'll come to the defense of people like that. When I say people like that, I am talking about the ones who are not trolls and haters. That guy commenting might be serious, but the problem with the Internet is we can't detect sarcasm like we can through spoken words.

I'm not gonna defend that person's comment because, whether or not, it's a flaming war just waiting to happen.

Amethyst, at the end of the day don't feed the trolls and the haters. Some are just assholes, and some just didn't really like a game, and the biggest thing we can do is ignoring them. For instance, I'll be serious here. After playing some good and bad Pokemon ROMs (Glazed, Flora Sky, etc.) and stumbled on Reborn, the bar was set pretty high I was kinda blown away by y'all how good it was to where I couldn't expect the same greatness in a while, since people on Pokecommunity and Reddit said it's as good as it gets. I don't LIKE Insurgence and Rejuv myself. However, that doesn't mean I HATE Rejuv and Insurgence. The difference is heavy here. The difference being that I don't lash out at Rejuv or Insurgence saying it is garbage, whereas said troll most likely did.

That guy commenting might have been grammatically incorrect, or uninformed.

The best way to put it. Think about someone who bitches about Pokemon today versus someone who bitches at, I'm gonna use myself with Pokemon Victory Fire. People who bitch at Pokemon in general are usually misinformed. Whereas like Victory Fire for me legitimately sucked because of terrible music, too much grinding and the grammar. O Gawd the grammar was terrible.

I could find things to rail Reborn for, but I choose not to, because what I'd try to argue carries little weight. There that's it.

[Solarance]

I've tried to talk with him, (might not of been the best thing to do, and I may of put myself up as an idiot, but I don't really care about the idiot part.) Here is our conversation. http://prntscr.com/86ei8v

[Frostilicious]

Indeed not worth at all. And idk why people actually think of Shofu as a very good pokemon player or something and comment sht about a game he's not good at. I don't have a problem with shofu at all, i'm actually a subscriber and i watch his vids, but the way he was playing reborn and rejuvenation wasn't really good since he didn't really care to try to learn a few stuff about field effects and available pokemon/events. Him failing battles such as valarie's and charlotte's wasn't really rejuvenation's or reborn's fault, it was plainly his. How did everyone else make it through if the game(s) sucked that bad then? That's my question.

[Darvan Korematsu]

I've tried to talk with him, (might not of been the best thing to do, and I may of put myself up as an idiot, but I don't really care about the idiot part.) Here is our conversation. http://prntscr.com/86ei8v

Jamaka, it reinforces my point. Erik Gruber is one of the unspoken trolls of Youtube.

EDIT: I've seen him comment in other places, like Game Theory.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Darvan Korematsu

[Juniper]

I've tried to talk with him, (might not of been the best thing to do, and I may of put myself up as an idiot, but I don't really care about the idiot part.) Here is our conversation. http://prntscr.com/86ei8v

I hate this kind of person (not you, him) Please never be this kind of person. anyone.

Nobody likes an asshole.

Not to mention he has the same last name as the bad guy in "Die Hard"..

Yippee ki yay...... Mother Fluffer.

[Felicity]

Half the comments are incited by Shofus constant negative remarks in regards to Reborn. He's a public figure whose opinion holds sway over a large part of his fan base, naturally, so when he gripes about Reborn a fair part of his fan base is going to hop on that band wagon. It doesn't hurt that he actually gets through a gym within one episode, thus progressing the game and making it a better viewing experience for those interested in the game.

Therefore, I ignore most of the youtube comments, if I watch the video at all. If someone wants to act that way, I don't want to interact with them. Anyone with even a few months of experience on the internet knows one trolls opinion hardly has an impact on those choosing to try the game. Let him complain,, so long as it's elsewhere.

[DashingStorm]

Also, may I remind everyone this topic is meant to be a discussion and not some thread to call people out on / start a crusade against people.

Opinions are fine, but don't let it get out of hand please. Thank you.

[Darvan Korematsu]

Actually just to sum it up in a simple sentence: "Don't feed the trolls." That's really all we need to apply. Nuthin else.

[Amethyst]

Saying someone is making you lose brain cells is pretty rude, you know? This is just a basic matter of respect. I firmly believe it's possible to hold different and even opposing opinions and not let it devolve into ad hominem.

I'm certainly not trying to start any drama here or snowball anything, but I'm just encouraging everyone to consider others' feelings as well when commenting other places. Be those 'others' the game devs or the Youtubers themselves.

[Guest]

At first i thought this would be a thread about funny youtube comments and i was about to dump the pearls i've collected over the years

it's all in the same essence of the phenomena of the "fandom wars", which haven't ever been much constructive from what i've seen.

That and the principle of gratuitous hate towards something, for example... MLP. Really guys it's not that bad of a show, even if may not your style. (or mine tbh)

The point is bashing people for liking something you hate is not exactly an ethical approach, and retaliating with more bashing would just make you as bad as the original ofender.

It's generally better to just not letting it grow into something bigger; to avoid pointless drama and negative emotions in general from both parties. It's not good to waste time in a useless war of flaming and offending yourselves, that's not mature.

Personaly whenever someone deliberately insults me online for the sake of it i just go "lol" and don't give it much attention at all.

[BlackMage]

I agree with you, Ame, but I can't just stand how can people support Shofu even though he himself plays Pokemon Reborn badly. If he didn't know it was supposed to be a challenging game, then why did he play it in the first place? Opinions might be opinions but people should not tend to go overboard and point out a game's flaws rudely when no game can be perfect. I don't like people like Erik Gruber, though I hold no hatred!

[Commander]

Le sigh...I guess I'll throw some more about this whole issue. Trust me, I keep a close eye on the fan game expose to avoid conflicts like this. Not everybody is going to like reborn so youtube comments are bound to show up like that. Generally, that's either their opinion (or trolling) and it's best just to accept it and move on. People have different tastes (or are bored) which is why we have the selection of video games we do.

THE MAJORITY HOW PEOPLE RESPOND TO IT HURT REBORN MORE THAN HOW HURTFUL THE COMMENT WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE! I want to emphasize that for a very, very good reason. A general problem in the world as a whole (especially in writing) is that people don't except faults as they view the stuff as perfect. Reborn is also a community so having members bash on people or other games only gives people the wrong impression of us. Back when I was part of a writing community, I sometimes got backlashed for giving criticism instead of saying how perfect a story was (which is a huge reason why I left). So you are really not doing anyone any favors (except the troll) by pointing out or getting upset by a youtube comment.

If you are going to respond to a youtube comment, make sure you aren't going to get upset over anything. You have to make sure you are polite, kind, and most importantly respectful. If I would say something to him it'd probably be, "I think both games are fantastic, but reborn isn't made for everybody." If he responded with a troll comment, just walk away and leave. It's that easy.

And Jamak, (points to giant capitalized letters above) that is exactly my point. And before anyone says anything negative about so-and-so youtuber, he could actually be a fan of Reborn. Sometimes people say stuff just to get people riled up and angry. And let's stop with the naming because it's pointless as it'll be someone different the next day.

Shofu's frustration is a bit different. I'm not sure whether he keeps playing it because he kind of enjoys the fraustration or more that the fans want him to continue (probably more of the latter), but I honestly think it is hilarious due to his skill level. Pretty sure half the things he says are to vent his frustration. (I think we've all done that at one point or another...cough hax queen cough).

[Jan]

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm going to point out a specific comment that people say(Or used to say, at least to me.) and speak from my perspective on why it wasn't/isn't okay. When I first started Rejuvenation, you wouldn't believe the backhanded compliments I used to get from people here, even though I was still new to game making. Let me just say right here, saying "It's good....but not as good as reborn" Is equally destructive as the comments seen on Shofu's video. It's destructive because you put someone down, for one, and you don't leave any feedback as to why you feel that is. I will admit that early on... they got to me, because it hurt my motivation. Someone who was still new to the whole RPG maker scene. I'm not sure if this still goes on with other projects on this forum, but if it does- stop. I just ask you to stop. You're not helping anyone by saying stuff like that. If you don't think it's up the expectations of yourself, then say why! These games are in beta. They need your feedback. This applies to any game, including Insurgence.

This comment may have been filled with past salt.

[SnowGlaceon]

First, to clarify, I don't mean defend the game at another's expense. There's no point in that.

Regarding Shofu.... Like I said, they're there for entertainment, and they'll get it one way or the other. While I agree he's had a far more difficult time with Reborn (and Rejuv for that matter) than most players have, it's not really and excuse for him to bash the game, nor for us to bash him. It's too bad that he doesn't realize his words have influence, and it's too bad that a majority of his viewers don't play for themselves (and maybe find the game easier than he makes it out to be). But what can we really do?

On that note, not all people believe those comments and such. I was actually led here by Shofu, and I was fully aware of his and other's options since I watched up to about e11 before playing myself. I was 13 then, and if I could understand it and do it, then so can anyone.

[Frostilicious]

Yeah it's not pleasant at all as a viewer and not a video maker (at least from my perception) in youtube to see bad or offensive comments on other's videos. I even care enough about that to feel bad even if it is on videos of people i don't know or don't follow. And i don't discourage anyone from expressing a bad critic on something or someone but yeah, providing possible solutions and/or reasons for that critic as well as trying your best not to make the other feel bad would be the ideal. It's sad how most people just don't care at all though. And to be honest, I personally can't just let anyone have it their way. I personally didn't like many videos of which i've seen but i still liked the effort of people trying to make it good, and still praised them. The fact that it didn't live up to my expectations, doesn't mean that it is bad.

[Chase]

Ah, internet warriors....

There's a few things all parties involved need to understand.

1. The YouTuber is the one who is freely allowed to speak frankly about the game they are showcasing - the adage goes "All publicity is good publicity."

As easy as it may seem to attack Shofu for playing the game badly. (guilty by the way, am I) Shofu is already doing Reborn, and Rejuvenation, a great service by playing the game in the first place. It's really -not- on the youtuber to adapt to the game so much as it is on the game developer to have thicker skin. Even if the games are not marketed, we have to remember that Ame, Jan, Suzerain(probably spelled that wrong) and everyone else are the producers, and people like Shofu, Nickaboo92, etc are the bridge between they the producers and we as consumers. It's these folks that truly get the word out to the masses and if it's NOT a good product, or NOT finished, or NOT enjoyable, then the developers know changes need to be made due to feedback from the videos, as well as the comment sections and the game's forums. We have to remember that these games are for the PUBLIC to enjoy, not just fans of the games to enjoy.

2. It falls on the Game Developers to decide what they will for the game, for better or for worse.

The responsibility for how the game plays and what features are and are not there falls on the developers. If they receive feedback - they have the right to ignore or implement changes based off of it.

3. Reborn and Rejuvenation don't need verbal defenses - If you are in this community, you know very well the games are popular.

4. The Game Devs -again- need to be prepared for criticism like that.

and finally

5. The gamers need to provide constructive criticism -only- if they truly care about the game. Otherwise, they are entitled to having groundless negative opinions.