Serious Issues with Latest Gym Leader

[Shadolance]

Alright so I made an account for the sole purpose of making this post. That's how bad I feel it is. I am intentionally not posting this in the "I need help with X gym leader" thread because I'm not asking for help. I'm asking for a nerf. A huge freaking nerf.

Ciel. What the everlasting mother of sandcastle burning chickenscratch Christ is wrong with this leader. That was not autocorrect.

Her team is downright broken. It's borderline FEAR Rattata team level. Let's take a look at some issues:

-First of all, everything uses Acrobatics, so no hold items or you are cooked halfway to Texas.

-The only thing that can effectively kill Archeops quickly before it OHKOs you is an Ice type, which are not known for speed or great tankability. They get killed immediately. I have a Lv75 Alakazam and Lv75 Ampharos that can OHKO it, but it vastly outspeeds both of them DESPITE both being 31 IV for speed and most EVs put towards speed. We're talking 200+ speed stat on each.

-Noivern outspeeds anything and can usually kill most non-Sp.Def pokemon in one hit, if not a strong 2. Also, if you didn't manage to get her to waste her Hyper potions before this thing comes out, you will not survive it because it outspeeds everything.

-The Altaria. Jesus Christ on a breadstick the Altaria. It's not even a flying type, it's 3 levels over the cap, it has god-tier defenses and can hit fairly hard, and the only two things that can super effective hit it are Ice and Steel types. The main issue is that the only dragons at this point in the game that can outspeed it are Flygon and Noivern, but their dragon moves are rendered useless because of the Fairy type, and Altaria can still use fairy OR dragon moves on them to slay them in one hit. Now, if you have a Steelix you're still screwed because you can't do damage worth a crap without Heavy Slam, and you'll always hit last because Steelix isn't exactly the embodiment of speed. I opted for Bronzong, but I always find myself using it to take down the Noivern, because since nothing can outspeed it for a OHKO, the only option is to tank. A heatproof Bronzong is about the only thing that can do that well and still have a way to kill the damn thing.

-If all this wasn't enough, keep in mind you still have to somehow kill a Talonflame and something else I forgot about (never struggled as much with those for whatever reason).

The biggest problem isn't that this leader is even that difficult. It's that if you don't know what you are going to be facing ahead of time, you will not catch the pokemon you need to to be prepared for the fight before you get locked into this region of the game. The only effective things at this point are the ice types found in the mountain nearby, but Avalugg is slow as Christmas coated in molasses, Cryogonal is extremely difficult to catch and train, and even if you do his offensive power is extremely lacking, and that leaves Beartic (which isn't bad I suppose), Glalie, and Delibird. Glalie wouldn't be a bad choice, but you better have some mighty fine speed and Sp.Att IVs to make it anything useful for this fight.

More or less, this is how the fight goes with the best team I've got:

-Use Ampharos to have her waste hyper potions on Togekiss, assuming I don't get flinched in either of the first 2 turns because of Air Slash, if I can do that then that's a good start

-Pray to Christ that Archeops doesn't use Earthquake, if so then it's already over, otherwise OHKO with Ampharos as well.

-Somehow struggle through Noivern with Bronzong, leaving Bronzong with less than half health. If I lose Bronzong here it's already over.

-Kill Talonflame with Rollout from Typhlosion or some other move from Claydol, this isn't that hard

-Gliscor (finally remembered it) goes down with Eruption from Typhlosion with no problem)

-Then Altaria. This thing just shits on every member of my team that's left. Bronzong, my one defense, isn't fast enough to do anything substantial, nor can I pull a Destiny Bond with Cacturne in time. I've tried.

I've tried about 20 different combinations of teams, all maxed to 75 without overleveling midfight, used many competitive movesents and builds, and nothing. If I'm lucky enough to get to that Altaria, it simply defecates over the remainder of my team, which is sometimes my entire team depending on how merciful the Noivern is.

I'm not asking for help. I don't want anyone to tell me how to beat it, I've read every thread of every forum related to it. Nothing works. Just nerf this overpowered POS.

[mde2001]

Firstly, the spoiler lock is well over.

Secondly, Ciel does not need a nerf just because you struggled with it. I personally found Ciel quite easy as did quite a few other people. If your team can't beat Ciel then you might need to train up a new member. I know that gym leaders can be frustrating but people are going to struggle with different leaders based on their team. Ciel's team might be adjusted but not majorly nerfed. You've got a few months before E16 comes out- train up a poison type to deal with Mega Altaria. Or an ice type would help.

Also- you can use hold items. Acrobatics effects based on whether the pokemon using it has a hold item- not you. Acrobatics is boosted in the field though.

I know it can be frustrating but adapt and eventually you'll beat her.

[TimTim]

Firstly, the spoiler lock is well over.

Secondly, Ciel does not need a nerf just because you struggled with it. I personally found Ciel quite easy as did quite a few other people. If your team can't beat Ciel then you might need to train up a new member. I know that gym leaders can be frustrating but people are going to struggle with different leaders based on their team. Ciel's team might be adjusted but not majorly nerfed. You've got a few months before E16 comes out- train up a poison type to deal with Mega Altaria. Or an ice type would help.

Also- you can use hold items. Acrobatics effects based on whether the pokemon using it has a hold item- not you. Acrobatics is boosted in the field though.

I know it can be frustrating but adapt and eventually you'll beat her.

Moves like switcheroo or trick may help with the acrobatics as mde said~

[Alou]

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll find much sympathy in the forums ^^; For one thing, gym leaders of reborn are notoriously difficult, especially when they first come out (i think basically every hard gym leader has been nerfed some as episodes go by) - and most people like that in the game (i mean some people even complain about the nerfs that i'm pretty sure I NEEDED to beat some leaders... but that's my problem, 'cause I don't play that rigorously, and reborn is kinda meant to kick your ass )

Most people found Ciel's fight to be rather easy, so I don't think she'll be getting nerfed any time soon. If you're not up for the battle, the only solution I could think of would be posting your save file to the forums and asking someone else to beat her for you (but i don't know how likely you are to get someone willing to do that for you, as like I said, I don't think you'll get much sympathy...)

[Xiri]

I personally think Ciel's team needs a boost. She was the second gym leader (first being Terra) who I beat on the first go - and was quite disappointed as I thought she would be more of a challenge, being the last leader to face of the Agate Triumvirate. Maybe my team was very advantageous towards her.

I guess a Walrein could help to an extent? Spheals and Sealeos are found in Ametrine Cave, and it's naturally bulky so it should be quite helpful against most of Ciel's Pokemon.

[Drymus]

Plenty of Ice/Water mons available, including the mighty Lapras. And you should have something with either the speed or the bulk to take on Altaria, while being able to hit it with a SE move.

[Shadolance]

I've actually tried the whole switcheroo, trick, snatch, and covet strategies already. Didn't help at all. If anything, crippled me more because I had to sacrifice a turn to do it. Moreover, I mentioned in my original post that' I've tried many different teams. I've tried each of the ice types mentioned above at level 75 with proper IVs (yes I went for perfect IVs and then EV trained them specifically for that IV to maximize potential). I've tried many, MANY different combinations and had no more luck with one than another. What I've been trying to do recently is find out which pokemon can OHKO hers - which isn't that hard, other than Noivern being ungodly fast and strong, even if frail. Then there's the initial Togekiss, which nothing can one shot that I have.

And like I said about the whole being locked out of the rest of the area, I missed my chance to get a Beldum, so Metagross is out of the question, otherwise I wouldn't be having this issue. If you notice a lot of the people that were able to beat it, and I

ve read every topic on this I could find, it's because they had one or two particular pokemon that they happened to pick up, and then realized they could train that one to sweep everything. Unfortunately, there are no pokemon capable of doing that within this locked off region that can do that within the level cap.

As I mentioned before, one of the biggest issues is being so far segregated from the rest of the game's areas. It severely limits what pokemon you have access to, and many of the ones available just can't get the job done.

If there are any pokemon I'm overlooking in an accessible area, please let me know. I've scoured everywhere.

PS - Just to put this into perspective, maybe so some of you will better understand my frustration, I've put 44 hours (according to game clock) just trying to get past this gym. That's the level of difficulty it's giving me. It's nothing to do with strategy either, my movesets are tailored specifically to this fight and couldn't be more on point if I wanted them to be. Everything I have been using is 75, porper supereffective movesests where applicable, and in theory should be a no-problem win. It's that so much of this match is left to chance and sheer speed that it becomes unwinnable.

[Shadolance]

Lapras? Where? That actually came to mind but I couldn't find one! I know it can learn Thunder and that would be invaluable with Rain Dance and Ice Beam.

As far as beating other gyms on the first go, the only one I didn't beat was Terra's, which I made a personal stupid mistake in and could have avoided. Nevertheless I beat it on the second try. This gym I have attempted over 50 times, no luck. I have been taking notes on paper of my strategies about what does and doesn't work, and holding onto the best strategies.

[mde2001]

Lapras? Where? That actually came to mind but I couldn't find one! I know it can learn Thunder and that would be invaluable with Rain Dance and Ice Beam.

As far as beating other gyms on the first go, the only one I didn't beat was Terra's, which I made a personal stupid mistake in and could have avoided. Nevertheless I beat it on the second try. This gym I have attempted over 50 times, no luck. I have been taking notes on paper of my strategies about what does and doesn't work, and holding onto the best strategies.

I am honestly quite confused by this. 50 attempts with perfect IV ice types. Have you tried with a Vanilluxe- I beat her with a non ev trained, non IV bred Vanilluxe and Pachirisu (plus a water type for her talonflame). Do you have anything that could learn trick room- I think I used trick room to beat her very fast team.

[Shadolance]

Vanilluxe has been my most recent attempt at 75. It has a 30 Sp. Attack IV and quite a few EVs put into it and speed. But Noivern kills it with Heat Wave before it can move, Archeops can one shot it due to bad defenses, and it's faster, and Togekiss can outflinch it most times. I've never gotten it to survive long enough to get to Altaria but I can only guess it would be a train wreck.

[TimTim]

Tutorial on how to get Lapras

[Shadolance]

I'm in the right area for Lapras with the day set to Saturday but no luck. It's not there. I got Feebas a while ago and I already had Sneasel as well (already tried it on this gym as well at 75)

[Shadolance]

Nevermind, had to set it to Friday. Weird.

[Rabbna]

Nearly everyone says seel is easy i swept 4 of hear team with gardevoir and let the rest of my team handle smogon bird and M-altaria

P.S. Please try not to double post in the future if you need to post again in a short amount of time use the edit button

[mde2001]

Have you checked to see if anything you has can use trick room. I really think it would help you out.

[Foamy]

I'm not quite sure what to say. Pokémon Reborn favors the prepared. Everyone else hasn't had much trouble with Ciel because they've caught and trained Pokémon from the pre-Agate areas in anticipation of future challenges.

I'm surprised to hear that your Alakazam doesn't outspeed Archeops, though. You said it has 31 Speed IVs and max Speed EVs, but does it have a Speed-boosting nature?

[Masquerain]

In all unbiased honesty, I really can not comprehend how can Ciel be deemed so hard by anyone? Sure, she's not the easiest gym leader, but ,come on, 44hours? How even. My team (on trainer card) also got quite utterly demolished by solely her Noivern if i'd make a mistake. Even so, with nothing that is super effective to most of her team, the fight was quite close, but still took me 2 tries to beat her. The Altaria is indeed a force to be reckoned with, but it is also slow. It's not that hard to wear it down. Weavile is a very fast ice type that can hit really hard. You could get that and be on you merry way. There's many more options you could use.

All in all, like other people already said, I don't think Ciel needs a nerf just 'cuz you somehow ended up spending 44hours? on trying to beat her.. in fact, not any gym leader at present needs a nerf. Hell, some need heavy buffs.

P.S. acrobatics' power is doubled if the USER is not holding an item, not the target. Furthermore, in high top field, the item holding is disregarded as acrobatics always has double power. It really seems like you just lack knowledge of the game in various aspects so I'd suggest you try to improve yourself before and instead of demanding that everything is impossible.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Masquerain

[DerogatoryTrainer]

Good old rock.

Nothing beats it.

[Sieg12]

Okay, first of all chill. This is the first version of ciel's team and so maybe its pretty alright to face problems but a nerf should be considered only when the majority say that a certain gym leader is tough. You're facing 18 gym leaders so unlike previous games where you set your difficulty mode based on your starter this isn't the case. Unless the six more ns you use have perfect synergy or are all super powerful you are better of having some mons in rotation. Its normal to face problems unprepared and that's why you gotta think sometimes. A different lead, different pokemon can lead to victory. Use priority moves to take care of archeops, faster Pokemon to deal with togekiss, rock types for talonflame and prevent altaria from boosting. An opponent's difficulty is as high as you the player set it.

[Foamy]

Good old rock.

Nothing beats it.

Are you referencing what I think you're referencing?

[DashingStorm]

Have you considered a Stealth Rock user with Sturdy (like Golem) to cripple her entire team?

Also, for help regarding certain/specific Gym Leaders, I can only suggest you check this place out;

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13527

[DerogatoryTrainer]

Are you referencing what I think you're referencing?

Naw I was referencing the Simpsons

[Another Felix]

She was actually the easiest gym leader for me. First thing done was set up Shift Gear on Klinklang against Togekiss. Defeat that with Gear Grind, then Gear Grind Archeops. Kills it instantly.

[Damage]

My first time reaching Seel was with a fighting mono. Lost a couple tries, cheated and added a rock type to throw in stealth rock. I replaced Chesnaught since he wasn't doing anything besides dying in that gym. Stealth rock made talonflame useless and the rest just got beaten down by Machamp who was an MVP (pure fighting type with no advantages in this gym) and the rest was just planning. I don't know why everyone saying its easy since only a few leaders are easy but like with any challenge, you figure out how it works and you win.

[Omega_Ra1der]

Ciel was moderately hard but then again, I had a gyarados which is axed. And imposter ditto taking altaria. Terra, however, was I say, was the hardest out of the trio due to nidoking and Garchomp. If I didn't have Gyarados, I probably would used Milotic or Lapras (Which I am trying to get)