Wrong Impressions you initially had of the characters

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

I totally missed Corey's storyline because i hadn't rescue all of the cops , but during my second run i freed them all and had access to the real storyline , Corey's one. What a dumbass .o.

[mde2001]

I totally missed Corey's storyline because i hadn't rescue all of the cops , but during my second run i freed them all and had access to the real storyline , Corey's one. What a dumbass .o.

Look I know you are referencing a line in the game here (by saying what a dumbass) but if could try to avoid making those sorts of comments about suicide (especially Corey's) it would be nice. Corey was a real person, who killed himself in real life.

I know you're joking so this isn't meant to come off as an attack on you but more of a request to avoid jokes about suicide which has been an issue for many of us in real life.

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

Wasn't refering about suicide to be honest. I know how dramatic a suicide is, i know very well , without entering in details.

I was refering about how he joined Team Meteor just for a ring, and had to confront his own daughter because of that, and in the end took the protagonist for the responsible of all that drama in his life. Okay his wife died and all, but he played the game of team meteor from A to Z.

That's why i think he's a dumbass, that wasn't refering to his suicide at all.

[SkyRunner]

Wasn't refering about suicide to be honest. I know how dramatic a suicide is, i know very well , without entering in details.

I was refering about how he joined Team Meteor just for a ring, and had to confront his own daughter because of that, and in the end took the protagonist for the responsible of all that drama in his life. Okay his wife died and all, but he played the game of team meteor from A to Z.

That's why i think he's a dumbass, that wasn't refering to his suicide at all.

The specifics are appreciated.

[mar_mar]

- Ι thought that Victoria would be more active in the game.

- I thought that the protagonist would actually die in the end (Idk why..maybe because it's not the usual pokemon game).

- I thought that Fern wouldn't become worse that he already was in the beginning but..I guess I was wrong.

- When I first saw Anna I thought she was just crazy but pure-hearted. Now I think that she's one of the biggest mysteries in the game.

- I thought that Titania wouldn't be so mean and ruthless.

- Like all of people, I thought that Cain was gay and Adrienn was a male (and also gay).

- I thought that Taka wanted to be with the meteors..at least just a little. Now we see that he's "forced" by his own choice.

- I thought that Zel was one person and he was either hallucinating or talking to someone we couldn't see.

- I thought that Sigmund was just a horrible and sadistic person.

- I thought that Terra would become more serious and use a less vulgar vocabulary but she kept on being a Miley-Cyrus clone. (Not that I don't like her attitude.)

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

A lot of people seem to have thought Adrienn was male. I knew xe was non-binary because I had read that before meeting xem in-game, but if I didn't know that and the conversation about xe being non-binary wasn't brought up by Cain or mentioned on xyr's showdown trainer card, I would've thought xe was female. Sometimes I even accidentally almost use she instead of xe.

[Grizzlybrand]

I thought

-Fern wasn't going to be as big a jerk as i thought he would be

-Cain wasn't going to be the top tier wife he turned out to be

-Bennet wasn't the type of person that shoots up a school

-Victoria would be a relevant protagonist

-Taka wouldn't be my favorite character

-I wouldn't get attached to ANY characters from team meteor

-Terra was tolerable

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

I refer Adrienn as a "Him" to be honest. In my mind, you cannot be "neither" . You're a boy , or a girl , and you dont chose it.

I Like Taka and Charlotte also, Charlotte has a great background story, and her impressions on the thing , her point of view she gave in her gym, were very....Well that caught me.

So for all my impressions

- Thought Corey wasn't that idiotic (Not for suicide, once more, but for meteor part)

- Thought Heather would be less problematic

- Thought Victoria would be Kiki's Gym leader replacement

- Thought i would not mind Taka or Eclipse

- Thought Charlotte was a provocating bitch

- Thought Fern was a girl

- Thought I could bear with T3RR4 's way of RAWWWRRRRING.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Gender identity = / = biological sex. There are also people who actually aren't biologically male or female (intersex).

Anyway,

I thought Bennett seemed ok before he got involved with El and creeped on Luna and made his stereotypical "I'm a loser nerd now but later I'LL SHOW YOU ALL!!!!" speech.

[Foamy]

I refer Adrienn as a "Him" to be honest. In my mind, you cannot be "neither" . You're a boy , or a girl , and you dont chose it.

Adrienn is referring to xyr gender, not sex.

See, you're thinking that sex and gender identity are the same thing, when they're actually not.

Gender is a social, cultural, and/or mental construct, while sex is strictly biological.

So yes, Adrienn might have a male or female body, but xe chooses to follow the societal norms of neither. I strongly encourage you to do further research into this subject, as it is important to be informed before making such claims.

Besides, I don't think Adrienn's biological sex was even confirmed, so how do you know that xe is a boy?

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

That was what i was referring to, sexual identity is your biological sex imo, you cant just say "I'm a girl but i'm male" or whatever you want. You were born with one gender, you're that gender.

Even in terms of societal norms, to me, it's impossible to class yourself as neither unless you were born without being biologicaly male or female , as Ice Cream Stated (didnt know that existed to be honest)

Adrienn is a boy's name where i live, don't know if it fits for a girl in English language, so i assumed he was male from the beginning x)

[Vinny]

Some of the impressions I remember:

- Thought Solaris was the worst person in Team Meteor

- Thought nothing justified Dr. Sigmund's actions

- Thought Fern was the worse person ever

- Thought nothing could be worse than Solaris Garchomp

- Thought Kiki would make it until the end :/

[Monochrome_Complex]

^^Adrienne is a gender neutral name, I work with a (rather nice) lady named Adrienne and knew another named Adrienne in high school.

And no I'm afraid you don't get it. Gender is not something you're born with and stuck with as you say, transgender is a thing for a reason, and Ame can really give you some insight on the matter, it's only a matter of time until she comes and gives her piece on the subject at this rate, but PMing her is a good idea.

Sex is what you're describing, and Foamy is saying that regardless of Adrienne's sex, he doesn't identify with either gender.

Your problem and admittedly mine for the longest time was conflating the two with each other, but once you understand there is a difference between sex and Gender, it's like, oh okay, I get it now" and you can really get a better understanding on the complexities of the two.

Also, I think Hermaphrodites would be a case of intersex, possessing both female and male specific characteristics. However someone like that could possibly define their gender as one or the other.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Monochrome_Complex

[Foamy]

That was what i was referring to, sexual identity is your biological sex imo, you cant just say "I'm a girl but i'm male" or whatever you want. You were born with one gender, you're that gender.

Even in terms of societal norms, to me, it's impossible to class yourself as neither unless you were born without being biologicaly male or female , as Ice Cream Stated (didnt know that existed to be honest)

Adrienn is a boy's name where i live, don't know if it fits for a girl in English language, so i assumed he was male from the beginning x)

Nope nope nopity nope. You're still thinking of it all wrong. Sexual identity and gender identity are two different things. Gender identity is completely independent of the sexual organs you were born with.

Regarding Adrienn's name:

"Adrien" is generally a male name, while

"Adrienne" is commonly a name for females.

So "Adrienn" is a nice ambiguous middle ground.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Foamy

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

I'm thinking transgender is something "Man made".

We are in a society that promotes transgendering , and makes all that is possible to make those "girly boys" and "manly girls" to turn into the opposite gender.

I know that well too, since i have a friend, who was a she, and turned to be a him since two years. I also met a transgendered woman who was male at his birth, and she told me many things about transgender.

"Most of the transgendered aren't born with the wrong one, because when you're not really the gender you were born with, you dont realize it at 15-16 years old, that's from the childhood you realize it, and that's not just a question of wearing dresses instead of pants, that's a burn inside you and that eats you litteraly.

Most of the transgender nowadays are transgenders because they got a kind of bad mood in their life, and they crossed the path of wrong people, travestite for example, are disgusting from the point of view of that transgendered woman, because they just become the opposite gender for the sake of sexual desires."

That's what she told me.

My friend also rejected all she was since she turned into a male, but was a pretty girl who was assuming she was one back in teenage days. Now she's even more alone than she was when she was a girl.

Well I loved her as a girl too, but that's another story for another time i guess.

That's why i cant promote that thing of "You can have XX biological sex and thinking you have another gender identity" because most of people dont know themselves enough to take a good decision for those questions. Young ones and Old ones.

I'm sorry if some words may be rude, english isn't my native language, so i still have difficulties with "Shades of words" when i'm talking. I guess that will be enough for you to get the general idea of my mind.

As for Adrienn's name, it's male only where i live, sowwy about that :3

[Foamy]

I'm thinking transgender is something "Man made".

We are in a society that promotes transgendering , and makes all that is possible to make those "girly boys" and "manly girls" to turn into the opposite gender.

I know that well too, since i have a friend, who was a she, and turned to be a him since two years. I also met a transgendered woman who was male at his birth, and she told me many things about transgender.

"Most of the transgendered aren't born with the wrong one, because when you're not really the gender you were born with, you dont realize it at 15-16 years old, that's from the childhood you realize it, and that's not just a question of wearing dresses instead of pants, that's a burn inside you and that eats you litteraly.

Most of the transgender nowadays are transgenders because they got a kind of bad mood in their life, and they crossed the path of wrong people, travestite for example, are disgusting from the point of view of that transgendered woman, because they just become the opposite gender for the sake of sexual desires."

That's what she told me.

My friend also rejected all she was since she turned into a male, but was a pretty girl who was assuming she was one back in teenage days. Now she's even more alone than she was when she was a girl.

Well I loved her as a girl too, but that's another story for another time i guess.

That's why i cant promote that thing of "You can have XX biological sex and thinking you have another gender identity" because most of people dont know themselves enough to take a good decision for those questions. Young ones and Old ones.

I'm sorry if some words may be rude, english isn't my native language, so i still have difficulties with "Shades of words" when i'm talking. I guess that will be enough for you to get the general idea of my mind.

As for Adrienn's name, it's male only where i live, sowwy about that :3

Or you presume to speak for people that you don't actually know anything about?

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

I'm stating that with transgenders i actually met in real life, i'm not closeminded at the point to make false speculations about it. ^^

[Amethyst]

Matter of time indeed.

First, there are parts of this society that promote transgender things. That doesn't mean that most transgender individuals are getting swept up in it, and frankly with the amount of backlash there is, to the point of murdering transgender people it's hard to justify that claim.

You and your friend have some pretty hasty and misguided generalizations about the population. The argument you make boils down to people not knowing themselves well enough, but you and your friend don't know them any better. However, simply saying that isn't going to change your opinion, so I'm not going to argue it further.

Nonetheless, it is a rule of this community to respect others, and that very much includes gender identity. We expect users to (at least make an effort to) use correct pronouns, and you are not exempt from that even if you believe it's undue. And frankly, if you are indeed intent on misgendering people, I'd be tempted to start referring to you as 'she' as well.

Further, this discussion is very much out of place in this topic. If you want to talk about anything on this further, you're free to PM me. This will be the last of it here though.

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

Well, Pm'ed you Ame so

To return in the topic, What are you thinking about ZEL? Yep we all know the triple personalities, but i'm thinking about Eve, the older sister. Didn't she turn herself into evil aswell? I mean sometimes she's speaking to the protagonist, and she clearly agrees with all that, while Lumi still wishes luck to the player o:

Waddya think ?

[ZEL]

Well, Pm'ed you Ame so

To return in the topic, What are you thinking about ZEL? Yep we all know the triple personalities, but i'm thinking about Eve, the older sister. Didn't she turn herself into evil aswell? I mean sometimes she's speaking to the protagonist, and she clearly agrees with all that, while Lumi still wishes luck to the player o:

Waddya think ?

[mysteriously poofs into existence upon mention of ZEL]

Eve is, by the tiniest margin, my favourite of the three, even though it is a REALLY difficult decision since they're all amazing.

She's intelligent, innovative and devoted.

"Evil" is very subjective. I think it's pretty complicated to apply a term like that to Eve.

After all that she and Lumi went through, after that long trauma conga line, she is simply focusing on one goal, and one goal only: she wants to protect Lumi.

That's what her actions boil down to the way I see it.

She's got nothing else worth fighting for any more.

She appears unemotional, but that's more likely a result of her not allowing herself to feel emotion about things that aren't directly related to her goals. I'd guess she forbids herself to care about anyone who isn't Lumi.

First of all, there's the matter of how it would be damn hard for them to stop working for Meteor/escape. Consider this: no Eve, no PULSE. Meteor needs her. She can't just pack up and leave without having Meteor hunt them down. They'd probably be caught and forced right back into work, but we know very well that Meteor's leadership has no problem annihilating anyone who cannot be made to comply.

Eve would not risk their collective lives like this. To disobey means putting herself and Lumi at grave danger, and she sure does not want that.

So keep that in mind as well. They're not low-tier grunts like Simon, or disposable like Eclipse or Aster (and we don't even know if he's being hunted or not).

They have much less room for a choice. They could choose to attempt an escape, but with being so important to Meteor, their chances are terribly bad. There's a reason Zero was sent to blackmail Eve into working for them. They never meant for her to have a choice, and this is no different in the present.

Now, since "no" is not an option, what can Eve do?

She has to do what Meteor wants, but she might as well make the best of it. If the "new world" is what Team meteor is aiming for, why not try to have a slice of that cake? If it's really possible for a perfect new life to be created, wouldn't that be a viable solution to ZEL's problem?

They could get their bodies back! Lumi would be healthy! They could maybe even get their parents back.

There's nothing more important to Eve than Lumi, that much has been shown through the diary scene. Eve "worked herself to the bone" and neglected her own health in order to find a way to cure Lumi. I mean, hell, we're talking about the person who invented a machine that mega-evolves Pokémon! (Albeit in a very twisted way and not like real mega evoluion, that much is true.)

Why? Because she was desperate to save her sister.

Eve could go "fuck this, terrorism isn't worth it, this is immoral". She could try to refuse to work for Meteor. Who knows if they'd torture, manipulate or kill her. But she doesn't.

And perhaps she's a bit selfish in her endeavor, because if you look back at what the diary says, there's this:

After several lines of Lumi agonizing over how scared she is of death, and how she cannot bear the thought of dying so young, she would still rather die than be a burden to her sister.

We also repeatedly hear Lumi mention that she is sorry for everything that ZEL are doing, especially regarding the PULSE-mons. She apologizes to Tangrowth, to Abra, to the player, she's all-around unhappy with having to let these things happen.

But Eve doesn't seem to consider this properly. She loves her sister, that much is obvious, but she's so hell-bent on saving her that she appears to ignore how Lumi actually feels about this.

Lumi has made this choice before - rather die than be a burden. I can't see her believe that her own life would be worth more than all of Reborn.

True, we could argue now that there's also Zero to keep in mind, but I honestly don't think that his willpower matches that of Eve, and judging from the dialogue in the game, it is Eve who makes the decisions. We only ever see Zero attempting to get on her level, but she continually puts him back in his place in every instance where they disagree.

I believe that if Eve and Lumi decided to abandon Meteor, Zero could not stop them. So why are they still with Meteor? Eve.

She may be far more intelligent than the average person, but this doesn't make her wise. She's still presumably a young adult, someone who hasn't yet lived long enough to have accumulated lots of experience. Smart or not, she still falls prey to the same kinds of promises that lured in other Meteor characters - she is not so different from characters like Simon, tricked into believing he could be reunited with the loved one he lost.

Not so different from Aster, who had nothing and believed that Meteor could give him everything he wanted.

Maybe also not so different from Tara, who believed that the end would justify the means, and that all the current suffering could be undone and forgotten once Meteor achieves their goals.

Eve is young, and she is trying to protect the only thing in the world she still cares about - Lumi.

Not every person is a noble hero who can put their own wishes and desires behind them to serve the greater good. It would be harsh to call Eve "evil" when she represents someone who has so much love for one person that the importance of everyone else pales in comparison.

It makes her unreasonable, yes, but do remember the saying: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

We don't know how she feels about what she is doing. She hasn't shown us anything about it yet. We've neither heard her praise nor condemn her actions so far. Zero gave us some boasting lines about the power of the PULSE, and we've got Lumi lamenting the pain and destruction it causes. But Eve? Distant and factual.

I'm reserving my judgment over whether or not she has "evil" tendencies until we find out how she feels about things.

For all we know, she feels terrible about this. But at the end of the day, she's faced with a situation from which there is no escape. Not alive, anyway.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Ama

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

Well, since enlgish isn't my native language, i had no other word than evil, but well that was worth the error when i'm looking to your answer x)

And i have nothing more to say, that fits perfectly to the character and helped me to understand it better

[ZEL]

Added a bit about the whole "choice" part, since I kinda completely omitted that factor when I submitted my original post.

But to cut down on the tl;dr a bit - I see Eve as acting on a mixture of her loyalty to Lumi, and due to not having any alternatives.

ZEL don't get to choose their allegiance. They're forced to work for meteor because nobody can replace Eve, and I see Eve as trying to make the best out of the situation.

That said, I am very prone to viewing these characters through... well, not rose-tinted lenses, but they're my favourites and re-reading my post I feel like I didn't manage to properly separate interpretation and wishful thinking. Will edit and fix it up a bit.

Edit2: done. This should be more coherent now.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Ama

[Zethe]

I thought Julia was secretly part of Team Meteor all the way until near the end of Episode 15.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Zethe

[Skullkin]

-It took me longer that I'd care to admit to realize that Zel wasn't an exclusive team of three people with two that were bugged out and invisible, but actually one guy that has multiple personality disorder.

[ZEL]

^Where in the game are you currently at? Because I don't wanna spoiler you, but you've still got it wrong.