Things that you DONT like on Pokemon Reborn.

[ZEL]

ZEL really only shines when the trio are interacting as Zero likely wouldn't be as interesting without the other two.

This makes me really sad still, for the same reason that I actually smiled when I saw Hunter put Zero on the list of stronger male characters.

I mean, it's no secret I love this trio dearly. ZEL's interactions are easily some of my favourite scenes in the game, as their character dynamic is amazing.

But with all the potential that Zero has for backstory and development, so far he's just "that one jerk" and it's too easy to read him as a character who only exists so Eve and Lumi can have their backstory. Which is decidedly not the role he's supposed to have.

I probably have a different view on him because I know a bunch of things about them as pre-game characters, but knowing what kind of character he was created to be / what his character development is intended to do, I love him because there's some of my favourite tropes in action.

It's just a bit disappointing to me that rather than reading between the lines, I have to write between them myself.

The next best characters - Dr. Connal, Zero, and Radomus, are characters that thrive on the theme of the unknown in various degrees - while other males such as Hardy, Fern, Samson, Cain, etc are shoehorned into tropes, seemingly for the sake of filling the League roster. Male representation in the story is something Reborn does no better than the original Pokemon series on, which is harsh criticism from a game that is much more rewarding and above average in most other areas.

I'll have to hug give you a handshake for putting Zero and Sigmund there.

But with Cain I have to somewhat disagree with you. Somewhat.

One thing that's very notable for me is how the gym leader characters especially often end up with their "quirks" being laid on too thick, at least for my taste. Cain is an amazing character both in concept and development, hidden behind sometimes simply too many 'Bi Pan the way' jokes.

I've noticed that a lot of criticism for his character is about how his tendency to make lewd jokes is overdone and that the constant references to his sexuality make him seem like that's all he is.

But Cain is also an incredibly caring character who is never, ever seen hesitating to take action when someone is in need of help with the slight exception of not wanting to give you the Wasteland key. And given that this part concerns his biggest weakness -family- that's understandable. And yet he gives you the key eventually, because he knows you need it to save the kids.

I also enjoyed the interactions between him and Aya, the whole part about them finally starting to talk out their issues with each other. Slowly, but they're getting there. And you can see that they actually care about each other.

Cain's story of running away from a family he didn't feel accepted by is pretty important to me, and a story like this involves a lot of people having to confront themselves. Aya admitting that she should have treated Cain differently when he presumably came out, Cain coming to understand what running away did to the rest of his family, both of them having to overcome their spite/bitterness for each other.

I have to agree with you on Fern, however, because while he's another character that I really like for where he came from and where he's headed, I felt that at several points his "arrogant asshat" thing was a little too much in my face.

I can see his character development, but there's still scenes where it feels like Fern's appearances are pointless save for the fight and reminding you he exists, because his development is static in them.

Hardy I can't agree or disagree on yet. I personally love what we've seen of him so far, maybe because I really do like characters who have this "good big brother" / "supportive friend" vibe. I adore how Hardy takes care of Aya, and when you compare how he confronts Fern about his asshattery to how he doesn't interrupt Cain and Aya's jabs at each other/arguments/bickering, he also clearly knows when it's necessary to be protective of her, and when she has to sit out an uncomfortable situation.

I can''t judge his possible character development yet because the whole Tania situation still needs to be resolved better, but what I've seen of Hardy makes him a very likable and potentially admirable character.

[Lilleen]

I SO agree with you on Cain, Ama. His character is one of the better in Reborn and he is a perfect rival in my eyes. Such a caring personality, but still isn't the happy-go-lucky type either. I can't wait to see more of him in future episodes. The fact that he went through so much to help Heather really speaks to me.

[Chase]

Perhaps I was a little -too- strict when looking at Cain, but there's one thing that gives him an advantage in character development (and also raises MY expectations of him as a result)...

He -is- a main rival. One that yes, may be better off than Fern, but feels very one-note when taking into consideration the sheer amount of screen time our pansexual friend gets. Yes, there are several parts of the story where we find out his sexuality has caused him to run from home - and we get to see both sides of that. Yes, he does try to mend the fences with Aya later on, Then there's Cain taking a Water type despite generally using Poison Pokemon, and the ordeal with Heather.

Heather's episode aside (which is the -best- written arc Cain is involved in because it feels like Cain can relate to Heather when it comes to feeling alone.) - everything genuinely seems to be expected from Cain - either deep story about his sexuality that we've already had hammered into our skulls before, or his classic double entendre delivery in a situation that didn't really ask for it.

Cain's biggest glaring weakness - a part from being laid on thick as you put it, Ama - is that he either doesn't have much room or seemingly refuses to grow, despite having the largest amount of screen time of any other male character in the game. This is why Zero is better than Cain when it comes to comparison.

Zero does more with less.

[ZEL]

Ah, when you put it that way then I get what you mean. Compared to how much screen time he gets, his development seems too drawn-out and moves at a very slow pace, which I guess can be slightly jarring compared to some characters whose development happens much faster (like Cal).

I didn't mind the slow pace as much with Cain as I did with Fern because Cain overall alludes to his story more often than Fern does, or at least in less ambiguous ways.

But you're right in that for a character with this much screen time, more could have been used to build his story and not just his personality.

Personality-wise Cain got great build-up.

I guess it might me more that when I hear "strong character" in this context, I separate it a bit from "good character", because when people criticize a character for being "weak" it's often to say that they don't stand out/aren't memorable, and I think Cain does a good job at being memorable, likable and hard to replace.

His writing has flaws, but he's not two-dimensional, which is what I think of when I hear "weak character".

[Sapphire]

The constant, repetitive tumblrisms. And the lack of Fly. I mean, seriously? Why waste our time walking everywhere. It was particularly bad during that whole Tangrowth issue near the start.

[Samalet]

The constant, repetitive tumblrisms. And the lack of Fly. I mean, seriously? Why waste our time walking everywhere. It was particularly bad during that whole Tangrowth issue near the start.

The Agate Circus point of no return wouldn't really work with Fly. But honestly, it's stupid anyways and I have no idea why it even is in the game, so that doesn't really justify the lack of fly. Caz' fangame solved it quite well IMO, you still can't get fly, but there's an extensive teleporter system that lets you travel to every town you already visited.

[Sapphire]

It would be easy enough to code everything after Agate as a 'no fly' area.

[FairFamily]

Perhaps I was a little -too- strict when looking at Cain, but there's one thing that gives him an advantage in character development (and also raises MY expectations of him as a result)...

He -is- a main rival. One that yes, may be better off than Fern, but feels very one-note when taking into consideration the sheer amount of screen time our pansexual friend gets. Yes, there are several parts of the story where we find out his sexuality has caused him to run from home - and we get to see both sides of that. Yes, he does try to mend the fences with Aya later on, Then there's Cain taking a Water type despite generally using Poison Pokemon, and the ordeal with Heather.

Heather's episode aside (which is the -best- written arc Cain is involved in because it feels like Cain can relate to Heather when it comes to feeling alone.) - everything genuinely seems to be expected from Cain - either deep story about his sexuality that we've already had hammered into our skulls before, or his classic double entendre delivery in a situation that didn't really ask for it.

Cain's biggest glaring weakness - a part from being laid on thick as you put it, Ama - is that he either doesn't have much room or seemingly refuses to grow, despite having the largest amount of screen time of any other male character in the game. This is why Zero is better than Cain when it comes to comparison.

Zero does more with less.

Here is the question you have to ask in return: why does Cain need to grow? Cain not growing is actually a good thing in the larger scheme of things. I mean Cain in most arcs does not have the role as major character. He plays more like a catalyst in those arcs. Cain's impulsive and helpful nature can easily involve the player into a lot of scenarios. Imagine if you were travelling with Fern: would Fern help the orphans? Would Fern go save gardevoir? No and that became the end of the arc. If Cain were to grow in those arcs he would actually take up spotlight from other characters which means they become a bit more stale in the story.

Edited May 17, 2016 by FairFamily

[Personthing]

Here is the question you have to ask in return: why does Cain need to grow? Cain not growing is actually a good thing in the larger scheme of things. I mean Cain in most arcs does not have the role as major character. He plays more like a catalyst in those arcs. Cain's impulsive and helpful nature can easily involve the player into a lot of scenarios. Imagine if you were travelling with Fern: would Fern help the orphans? Would Fern go save gardevoir? No and that became the end of the arc. If Cain were to grow in those arcs he would actually take up spotlight from other characters which means they become a bit more stale in the story.

I disagree here. Why would Cain having his own growth arc make things like these unable to happen? He could still grow into a stronger character in his own arc while still serving as a catalyst for other character arcs. Growing as a character doesn't mean he'd ever have to lose his good nature.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Personthing

[FairFamily]

I disagree here. Why would Cain having his own growth arc make things like these unable to happen? He could still grow into a stronger character in his own arc while still serving as a catalyst for other character arcs. Growing as a character doesn't mean he'd ever have to lose his good nature.

That was not to what I was referring to. The argument was: "he has so much more screentime so he has to grow so much more"; I just tend to disaggree with that based on his role he has in those arcs. A bit better formulation would have been more insightful.

Btw don't you think that we right now we are in Cain's grow arc? I mean him making up with his sister and acting like a brother to her is much different to the past him. His reaction to Aya's kidnapping is also completely different compared to the reaction to the kidnapping of Gardevoir.

Edited May 17, 2016 by FairFamily

[Chase]

Look, with characters like Cain - it's never that he has to do anything. Cain is a memorable character and a "good" one in that there's a lot we see of him that helps the story move along (as opposed to Victoria who is only good at helping the story grind to a complete halt.)

However, Cain is a significantly weaker character in that, despite his screen time, he is much more static than he probably should be. It's a common fate shared by generic Pokemon rivals even. They start off as a person that is a catalyst for the story and occasionally they themselves don't change until the very end.

...going back to my argument about male characters - they are as a whole much more "stock" than their female counterparts, who almost always have a dynamic arc about them. For some, it's intentional, for others, it's because their place in the story hasn't been released yet, and for still others, they are doomed to be a stock character from the beginning.

If Cain's just now coming around, then I'm not saying end-product Cain is destined to be as weak as Episode 15 Cain - but you're not going to be able to say that just because he's finally getting a shot at a dynamic that he automatically is comparable to Cal or Zero in strength.

Until Ame proves otherwise with more story, Cain just doesn't have enough - which I will continue to find questionable considering his amount of time on the screen already.

Finally, stock characters still can be catalysts, but that doesn't make that all that much stronger. Characters gain strength through personal growth - not repeatedly appearing in the story and doing what you expect them to.

[Gaunt]

Look, with characters like Cain - it's never that he has to do anything. Cain is a memorable character and a "good" one in that there's a lot we see of him that helps the story move along (as opposed to Victoria who is only good at helping the story grind to a complete halt.)

However, Cain is a significantly weaker character in that, despite his screen time, he is much more static than he probably should be. It's a common fate shared by generic Pokemon rivals even. They start off as a person that is a catalyst for the story and occasionally they themselves don't change until the very end.

...going back to my argument about male characters - they are as a whole much more "stock" than their female counterparts, who almost always have a dynamic arc about them. For some, it's intentional, for others, it's because their place in the story hasn't been released yet, and for still others, they are doomed to be a stock character from the beginning.

If Cain's just now coming around, then I'm not saying end-product Cain is destined to be as weak as Episode 15 Cain - but you're not going to be able to say that just because he's finally getting a shot at a dynamic that he automatically is comparable to Cal or Zero in strength.

Until Ame proves otherwise with more story, Cain just doesn't have enough - which I will continue to find questionable considering his amount of time on the screen already.

Finally, stock characters still can be catalysts, but that doesn't make that all that much stronger. Characters gain strength through personal growth - not repeatedly appearing in the story and doing what you expect them to.

Cal has developed yes but how is Zero memorable? From what i remember he's just a generic Meteor grunt (maybe i missed some background story idk) that makes him plain imo.

[ZEL]

Well, what Hunter said is:

"The next best characters - Dr. Connal, Zero, and Radomus, are characters that thrive on the theme of the unknown in various degrees"

Which I'd guess means that what makes these characters interesting is the potential they have, rather than just what's already been shown of them.
There's a lot of blanks for us to fill in, lots of what's currently left to our imagination.

Once more I should probably not open my mouth too wide, because I've probably had one too many conversations with Ice to even be able to talk about Zero from a neutral standpoint, but what would make him intriguing could be the potential he has to grow as a character.

Zero as far as the game has shown so far, is just your average grunt at first, yes.

But the turning point is the moment he becomes part of ZEL, because it puts him in a situation that will inevitably force him to undergo character development for the worse or the better.

Zero is unable to escape the consequences of his actions. Lumi's diary mentions that after the ZEL incident, the "voices" of Zero and Eve wouldn't stop. This implies that at least for a while, ZEL weren't able to ignore each others' thoughts and possibly to some extent emotions. (I assume they eventually learned how to blend each other out.)

This is interesting because it forces Zero into the uncomfortable situation of very personally experiencing Eve and Lumi's reactions and thoughts. Until they learn to block out what the other is thinking, he has no choice but to get glimpses of their minds. And I don't think that the majority of people would be unaffected by something like this.

There are so many ways how he could react to the new situation, each changing depending on the possibilities for his background story and eventual destination.

Sharing a mind with Eve and Lumi has the potential to make him empathize with them on a new level and force him to feel remorse, could make him care about them (or rather, make them care about each other). Or it could foster hatred and resentment against them.

But in any case, he won't be able to treat them neutrally any more. He can't run away from the situation, he can't avoid the consequences and responsibilities that come with it.

And unlike characters like, say, Simon, Zero can't just go "well then I'll just leave it all behind". Meteor isn't gonna let Eve go, so ZEL are stuck there no matter how much Zero could potentially regret his actions.

Zero is a character with lots of potential simply because of ZEL's character concept.

My own predictions and expectations of what he will develop into aside, what makes him interesting is all the things he could be.

...That, and what made him memorable to me personally is the same as for the rest of ZEL - I just think their character dynamic is incredible, and their interactions all stand out to me as favourite parts of the game.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Ama

[Gaunt]

Well, what Hunter said is:

"The next best characters - Dr. Connal, Zero, and Radomus, are characters that thrive on the theme of the unknown in various degrees"

Which I'd guess means that what makes these characters interesting is the potential they have, rather than just what's already been shown of them.

There's a lot of blanks for us to fill in, lots of what's currently left to our imagination.

Once more I should probably not open my mouth too wide, because I've probably had one too many conversations with Ice to even be able to talk about Zero from a neutral standpoint, but what would make him intriguing could be the potential he has to grow as a character.

Zero as far as the game has shown so far, is just your average grunt at first, yes.

But the turning point is the moment he becomes part of ZEL, because it puts him in a situation that will inevitably force him to undergo character development for the worse or the better.

Zero is unable to escape the consequences of his actions. Lumi's diary mentions that after the ZEL incident, the "voices" of Zero and Eve wouldn't stop. This implies that at least for a while, ZEL weren't able to ignore each others' thoughts and possibly to some extent emotions. (I assume they eventually learned how to blend each other out.)

This is interesting because it forces Zero into the uncomfortable situation of very personally experiencing Eve and Lumi's reactions and thoughts. Until they learn to block out what the other is thinking, he has no choice but to get glimpses of their minds. And I don't think that the majority of people would be unaffected by something like this.

There are so many ways how he could react to the new situation, each changing depending on the possibilities for his background story and eventual destination.

Sharing a mind with Eve and Lumi has the potential to make him empathize with them on a new level and force him to feel remorse, could make him care about them (or rather, make them care about each other). Or it could foster hatred and resentment against them.

But in any case, he won't be able to treat them neutrally any more. He can't run away from the situation, he can't avoid the consequences and responsibilities that come with it.

And unlike characters like, say, Simon, Zero can't just go "well then I'll just leave it all behind". Meteor isn't gonna let Eve go, so ZEL are stuck there no matter how much Zero could potentially regret his actions.

Zero is a character with lots of potential simply because of ZEL's character concept.

My own predictions and expectations of what he will develop into aside, what makes him interesting is all the things he could be.

...That, and what made him memorable to me personally is the same as for the rest of ZEL - I just think their character dynamic is incredible, and their interactions all stand out to me as favourite parts of the game.

From what i see you are talking about ZEL here not Zero and i agree 100% that ZEL is an interesting character/concept but for me Zero (as an individual) ceased to exist after the merge with the other 2.

[ZEL]

You could argue that he has no reason to exist without Eve and Lumi, but Zero's story, IMO, is about learning that he's not meant to be alone. Thus the focus is on his interactions with the girls. Who he is privately isn't the central part of his role.

Beyond their work for Team Meteor, ZEL's story is about each other. It'd be like saying that Saphira is uremarkable because if you take away Laura and Charlotte, a good part of her purpose crumbles completely

But personally there's a lot that I can interpret or directly conclude about him from what we've already seen.

Wall of text time! (tl;dr me describing Zero as I perceive him in the game)

Edit: (screw it, putting it in a spoiler because long)

Zero is a typical "bark worse than bite" character. He's impatient and easily upset, he's that guy who just hates when things don't go his way.

For Eve's calm and controlled exterior and Lumi's hesitant and friendly nature, Zero is the guy who is vocal about his feelings (in the case of the player's interactions with them, mostly frustration).

He is the most outwardly emotional of the three. Eve has the self-control not to be, and Lumi lacks the assertiveness to really speak out (though of course, we see her attempts). And I like that about him. ZEL's dialogues wouldn't be as funny if Zero wasn't there. They wouldn't be as lively if he weren't there.

In situations like the PULSE Abra arc, ZEL's appearance would be a lot less engaging if it weren't for him. You'd get there, find the out-of-control Pokémon, and after a bit of thinking Eve would do what she did and ask you for help. Would that work? Sure. But would it be as interesting and funny? Not really.

Zero has something immature to him, in how he channels his frustration into complaints. I sometimes feel like he's almost relying on Eve to solve all of ZEL's problems ("if you had made this machine go faster", "you said this machine would", Eve being the one trying to resolve the Abra situation...), and his obvious flaw is that he hasn't learned how to work in a team. Wanna bet he's just as much of a brat to other people (unless they're clearly above him)?

But I think his outspoken nature could make him one of the more honest characters. It could make him the driving force of a team, because he's the one who would keep them going forward. I think Zero is energetic and can show initiative once he stops expecting others to solve his problems.

For all he complains about stuff, he'd gladly be the first pointing out flaws in a plan.

He'd be less gullible because he doesn't like to accept things the way they are. He's not a critical thinker, but if you want to convince him of something you gotta put in work.

What I also find remarkable about him is that for as much energy as he has, he doesn't seem to be working towards anything.

I feel like he's the type of character who joined Meteor for the same reason as Aster: He didn't have anything before, and they could give him something.

I don't think Zero gives an actual damn about the whole "make reborn great again"/"New World" deal. He just wants something better than what he's had before, and thought joining Meteor could give him that.
He's aimless and still hasn't found his place in life.

And here is where I have to blatantly type out my wishful thinking/assumptions: I think that Zero is the kind of character who will find out that what he needed and gained are the relationships he's made. He doesn't strike me as someone who ever had a lot of friends or just about anyone who actually cared about him.

When I think about what pre-Meteor Zero could have been like, I imagine him as a loner. In fact, I tend to put him in contrast to Eve and Lumi as someone who doesn't know what it is like to have a family.

And I can see Eve and Lumi becoming exactly that. I think he can get along with them and I think he's growing to care about them.

I don't know if any of that makes him interesting to you. That's, after all, personal preference. But I think he very much is a distinct character in his own merit who could both exist outside of ZEL and is important to make ZEL the characters they are. Certainly not someone void who could be replaced with just about anyone.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Ama

[Ironbound]

I see some considerable activity in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read through 11 pages of its context, so I'll just answer the titular question.

I enjoy Reborn greatly, but it contains some things, which although are an essential and frankly interesting parts of the plot, are nevertheless the winners of my discontent. I allude to the murdery parts. I am of the school of thought whose attitude towards murder is thoroughly bourgeois, in that I simply do not approve of it, and do not think it can be justified in any circumstances. So I'll be excused for not liking Solaris's and Titania's actions, for instance, (and also Sapphira's and the entirety of Meteor's as a whole, but at least they were not as explicitly shown killing people, and Meteor is supposed to be evil anyway.) I concede that they were integral to the game, and that in fact Reborn could not be a what it is, i.e., a mature game, if it did not have such blatant and gruesome death as a part of its plot (it is in fact all the more enjoyable because its villainous groups are not sissies who don't actually do anything physically 'evil'. This logic still does not excuse Sapphira and Titania, in my view, however.) But though Reborn is not to be adjudged alongside standard Pokémon games (despite it actually being one), and in spite of the fact that I do not dislike the game at all due to these instances, that is the closest I can come to answering the question of what I do not like in this game.

I suppose it is hardly unexpected of me, though. Before I am swamped by protests of my disapproval of Titania and Sapphira, I will say that it's purely an opinion of mine, and thus is inherently neither 'right' nor 'wrong'. I understand their motivations for their murderous acts, especially in Sapphira's case, for it is no more than self-defense against terrorists who would have killed her family otherwise, or, when raiding the Meteor base, could have fled and reported to Lin or otherwise precipitated the situation. In short, Sapphira in particular can be 'grey-area-ed' for murdering the Meteor guards and the ones in the boats on the lake. But Titania is somewhat different, and she also carried the whole Miss-Mass-Murderess trope a bit too far. I doubt she had a reason to eviscerate the defeated Meteor grunts and cultists who were clearly no longer a threat to her, at least after the player joins her and she is no longer alone with only one Pokemon versus them, considering the fact that they could not have done anything to worsen her situation if they had been left alive, for Taka, who was the sole operative in charge at the WTC, was already aware of the player and Titania and was in fact surreptitiously trying to have them accomplish their goals without him having to oppose them. I suppose this mainly means that I don't like Titania's actions in the game, which I deem unnecessarily violent.

And as for ZEL, I only have one thing to say: The Lord Magnezone giveth and the Lord Magnezone taketh away. Praise be to the Magnet Lord!

[Samalet]

But Titania is somewhat different, and she also carried the whole Miss-Mass-Murderess trope a bit too far. I doubt she had a reason to eviscerate the defeated Meteor grunts and cultists who were clearly no longer a threat to her, at least after the player joins her and she is no longer alone with only one Pokemon versus them, considering the fact that they could not have done anything to worsen her situation if they had been left alive, for Taka, who was the sole operative in charge at the WTC, was already aware of the player and Titania and was in fact surreptitiously trying to have them accomplish their goals without him having to oppose them. I suppose this mainly means that I don't like Titania's actions in the game, which I deem unnecessarily violent.

Very true. It felt like it was just there to make the story "darker and edgier", which is one of the worst thing a story can do. Also, murder and death should always have consequences in a story, for a character that's supposed to be on our side to get away with it so easily doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Sapphire]

@ Virisescant - Yeah, I'm not a fan of Titania and Saphira either. Especially as if you go back to the graveyard in the city you find out that Saphira massacred the grunts who were swimming to safety, as well as killing a recurring character (who iirc, was about to leave Team meteor).

Edited May 18, 2016 by Sapphire

[ZEL]

IMO the point of Tania's rampage is mainly to humanize the Meteors and Cultists further (hell, we get Gretchen telling us that Tania killed her sister, and sobbing how she wishes she would have died in her place) and to show us that our side can be just as violent as the enemy.

The whole of Reborn is full of gray morality. We have nice Meteors like Tara and Simon, we have despicable ones like Sirius. We have all kinds of backgrounds to why they joined.

We have nice allies like Laura, and we have brutal ones like Tania. Some of them care about all of Reborn (like Adrienn or Florinia), others care only about what's dear to them (like Saphira or Tania).

Neither our enemies nor us are unified in our goals or methods, and I think Tania and Saphira are to us what most of Meteor is to Taka - both the player character and Taka have a goal in mind and think that reaching it will be for the greater good.

But both are faced with the fact that it makes them work together with people whose methods and ideas we don't agree with.

PS: Little afterthought as I pondered about the ZEL thing: The weakest character of them is actually Eve. If you take away the diary scene, Eve is reduced to Miss Exposition and you couldn't tell that she cares about Lumi at all. Both Eve and Lumi interact much, much more with Zero than with each other. If you take Eve's backstory away, most people will see nothing more than a generic "emotionless evil scientist" character.
(We get a hint that Lumi likes Eve early on when she says "Eve built it all by herself!",though.)

I'm a huge fan of her and she is my favourite of the three, but if you take the diary away, there is little to endear her to us.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Ama

[Lilleen]

I don't like Titania either. Saphira is somewhat tolerable, since she does what she must to protect her family.

The sewer adventure was my least favorite part of the game because of her. I get what that part of the game was going for, but I felt that Titania's overly violence was a bit overdone, in my opinion anyway.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Lilleen

[Mortally Divine]

Personally, I enjoy the moral gray of Reborn. It basically drives home the point that the world is deeper than black and white, and your allies can be just as ruthless as your enemies. This isn't your normal pokemon story of good guys vs bad guys, this is a story of human struggle.

Titania will stop at nothing to keep what is dear to her safe, and I can understand her slaughter of the meteors due to her frustration and anger. She was living a lie to keep Amaria(sp?) safe, and then the player breaks that lie, and now Amaria's life is in danger anyways, so her living through the lies has meant nothing, at least in short sight. I can understand why she would slaughter people, honestly.

I can also see why Saphira would kill all of the people in Team Meteor for the same reason, by threatening her family, which she prizes above all else.

Seems ironic that I'm posting a post about how I like certain things in reborn, even though it is a thread about what you DONT like. So uhh... I don't like how we have TM Fly but no Skarmory, that's upsetting as a Steel Mono Trainer.

[Commander]

Okay, I saw this great big debate on Zero/ZEL and the one thing that pops up quite a bit is that Pulse room where Shelly read the note. I really think you should disregard all of that when judging how good a character is, not because it's unimportant (backstory is very important to some characters), but background info is just background info, not a character. I really hate to ridicule Amethyst and the writers on this, but ZEL is just handled so terribly. I don't think ZEL is a terrible character either.

The whole thing about ZEL is that they're always make an appearance with a pulse and often a different character or pulse is the big focus. Just take a look at the first pulse tangrowth. Yeah we get a glimpse of each one's personality, but it's hard to keep track of which one is which just due to it all being a single sprite. Sure the name changes when a different one is talking but it took me a second run to even figure that out (Lumi is the only one who is easily distinctive due to her more cheery personality). Other than that, it's just a text dumb on pulses giving almost zero insight to who ZEL is. This is the only character to do so as well.

Next event is the Pulse Muk in which Solaris takes the spotlight giving off his no mercy impression while ZEL I can't even remember what they say other than trying to stop you. Pulse Abra we just see ZEL getting aggrivated and the focus is mostly on Lin, in which we finally get to meet the scary leader of Meteor. Again, there's really not that much to go off for ZEL, but we learn quite a few interesting tidbits on Sigmund (and even the snake Sirius has fears).

The only time we really get context of ZEL's character and motives is the Pulse Avalugg. Obviously ZEL had to plant it their which shows signs that someone in ZEL is at least against Meteor and all of this. Eve is likely the one I'm guessing seeing as we don't know much on her. It's so unusual considering ZEL had no problem killing Flo,Amy, and the player at the start of the game when he was alone. If he wanted to lose, he should've let Amy take down Pulse Growth.

That's why when the text dump on ZEL (I really feel that should be something players can choose to read instead of being forced to read through it), I just didn't care. No seriously look at all the little things each character does and look at ZEL and you'll just notice a huge difference in terms of development. The moment you meet Hardy, you can tell he's a very caring person willing to keep trying even when someone is pushing him away as well as the little hatred between him and Fern. That's from a "weak" character. If you want to argue about the text dump Shelly reads, Flo, Amy, Tania, and Julia all have diaries but you don't need to read them to understand or get insight of a character.

[ZEL]

Hmm, I both agree and disagree with you there. Kind of 50/50 for me.

Personally I never had trouble telling the trio apart. The only one who I won't argue is not a strong character purely based on interaction, is Eve, so I'll have to agree with you that much.

I also agree that if you judge based on how much you can learn about their backstory without the diary, then they're very poorly handled.

As I mentioned somewhere above, Eve definitely gets hit HARD when you take out the diary scene. I remember that prior to reading the diary, what made Eve interesting to me were her interactions with Zero, as they are plenty and make up the most part of their dialogue with each other.

They're hands-down my favourite character dynamic in the game.

But if you take away that one little comment Lumi makes during the first PULSEgrowth scene, there's no indication whatsoever that she and Eve are any more connected than either of them are to Zero.

And that's a problem, because introducing the entirety of their relationship via the diary makes it a case of something being told, but not shown.

Eve doesn't have to break character to give us an impression of her caring. Maybe have her try to give a panicked Lumi a reassuring (but still calculated) comment every once in a while. Make it more obvious when she's interrupting Zero if he's being rude to her.

And for the love of Arceus, I'm still bothered by the moment during their intro where Eve interrupts Lumi.

Similar to how you said it's easy to establish Hardy's character in his introduction, ZEL's intro worked just as fine for me to establish Zero and Lumi. Zero immediately shows himself as impatient and bratty, whereas Lumi comes across as friendly and meek. It's one of the reasons I liked them from the first scene on.

The big problem with them, IMO, is not about giving us an impression of their personalities, it's that unlike other characters whose diaries you can acess (Rini, Julia, Tania, Amy), you have no way of getting any hints about their story/past without it.

I don't need to read the Onyx squad's diaries to know that something happened between them and that there was a huge conflict, and who is on whose side.

But ZEL don't give that insight, so I agree with you that they're poorly handled there.

I think that if you take away the diary, then Zero and Lumi are still good characters because you can easily get an idea of what kind of people they are. I mean, with Zero especially, the largest part of getting to know him relies on his dialogue, since the diary doesn't really tell us much.

PULSE Muk was actually a memorable conversation to me, because I really enjoyed that brief moment of Zero and Eve not arguing against each other for once. I wouldn't call it teamwork, but having them not bickering for once was interesting.

And personally, I'll disagree entirely on PULSE Abra, because to be honest, I only kept Lin at the back of my mind until she actually appeared. Was I intrigued to learn about her existence? Sure. But I was very much distracted by the actual situation at hand, and it gave me what I think is ZEL's best appearance so far.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Ama

[Lilleen]

Personally, I enjoy the moral gray of Reborn. It basically drives home the point that the world is deeper than black and white, and your allies can be just as ruthless as your enemies. This isn't your normal pokemon story of good guys vs bad guys, this is a story of human struggle.

Titania will stop at nothing to keep what is dear to her safe, and I can understand her slaughter of the meteors due to her frustration and anger. She was living a lie to keep Amaria(sp?) safe, and then the player breaks that lie, and now Amaria's life is in danger anyways, so her living through the lies has meant nothing, at least in short sight. I can understand why she would slaughter people, honestly.

I can also see why Saphira would kill all of the people in Team Meteor for the same reason, by threatening her family, which she prizes above all else.

Seems ironic that I'm posting a post about how I like certain things in reborn, even though it is a thread about what you DONT like. So uhh... I don't like how we have TM Fly but no Skarmory, that's upsetting as a Steel Mono Trainer.

What was my point was that I think that part of the game could've been handeled a bit better than it was. I'm not saying Titania wasn't allowed to kill anyone because she's the "good" guy, but I felt that her killing off the meteors down in the sewers was a bit overdone for my liking. I have nothing against good guys being violent, because it does show how some good guys aren't nice, which is perfectly fine when done right.

[Chase]

My reasons for disliking Titania are more attributed to her love life and not so much playing Miss Murder.

...and before anyone asks, it's not because she and Amaria are lesbians. That's perfectly fine.