Tier Changes the 3rd

[Amethyst]

Third time's the charm, right?

Pokemon marked in Red are proposed to move up in tiers. Pokemon marked in Blue are proposed to move down in tiers. Pokemon in Green are Suspect between the tier they are currently listed in, and one tier higher.

Ubers (Pokemon banned from the OverUsed tier):

Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-A, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Zekrom

OverUsed (Pokemon banned from the Borderline tier)*:

Alakazam, Blaziken, Breloom, Chandelure, Chansey, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Ditto, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Heatran, Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Jellicent, Jirachi, Jolteon, Keldeo, Kingdra, Landorus, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Machamp, Metagross, Mienshao, Ninetales, Politoed, Porygon2, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Salamence, Scizor, Scrafty, Serperior, Skarmory, Slowbro, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, Volcarona, Whimsicott, Wobbuffet, Zapdos,

*A note about Reborn's OU:

One of the greatest appeals of Reborn is that we do not follow Smogon tiering. Drizzle+SwiftSwim will not be banned here in the foreseeable future, and if it is (unlikely), SandStream+SandRush and Drought+Chlorophyll will go right along with it. Pokemon like Blaziken and Garchomp that have been banned by Smogon are probably not going to make it to Ubers here for the sake of preserving a (reasonably balanced) environment in which they can still be used. Shadow Tag Chandelure is another such case, but we have had an in depth discussion on it recently in which justification for its ban could not be logically resolved.

Borderline (Pokemon banned from the UnderUsed tier):

Abomasnow, Aerodactyl, Ambipom, Azelf, Blissey, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Darmanitan, Dusknoir, Electivire, Empoleon, Feraligatr, Forretress, Golurk, Heracross, Infernape, Kyurem, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Meloetta, Mew, Ninjask, PorygonZ, Quagsire, Sableye, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Sigilyph, Slowking, Smeargle, Snorlax, Staraptor, Starmie, Suicune, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Victini, Virizion, Weaville, Wynaut, Yanmega, Zoroark

UnderUsed (Pokemon banned from the LittleUsed tier):

Accelgor, Alomomola, Amoongus, Arcanine, Azumarill, Bisharp, Carracosta, Clefable, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Cradily, Crobat, Crustle, Donphan, Dugtrio, Durant, Dusclops, Escavalier, Exeggutor, Flygon, Froslass, Gallade, Galvantula, Gorebyss, Gothitelle, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Honchkrow, Kabutops, Krookodile, Lilligant, Ludicolo, Magnezone, Milotic, Nidoking, Omastar, Raikou, Roserade, Rotom-C, Rotom-F, Rotom-H, Rotom-S, Sandslash, Sawsbuck, Sceptile, Scolipede, Stoutland, Swampert, Swellow, Tornadus, Umbreon, Venomoth, Volbeat, Xatu

LittleUsed (Pokemon banned from NeverUsed tier):

Absol, Aggron, Altaria, Arcehops, Armaldo, Articuno, Basculin, Bastiodon, Beheeyem, Bibarel, Blastoise, Bouffalant, Braviary, Butterfree, Cacturne, Charizard, Cinccino, Claydol, Cottonee, Crawdaunt, Cryogonal, Drapion, Drifblim, Druddigon, Eelektross, Electrode, Emboar, Entei, Exploud, Ferroseed, Floatzel, Fraxure, Gardevoir, Gigalith, Glaceon, Gligar, Golduck, Golem, Gurdurr Hariyama, Hippopotas, Hitmonchan, Houndoom, Huntail, Jumpluff, Jynx, Kangaskhan, Kingler, Klinklang, Lanturn, Lapras, Leafeon, Leavanny, Lickilicky, Liepard, Luxray, Machoke, Magmortar, Magneton, Manectric, Marowak, Medicham, Mesprit, Miltank, Mismagius, Moltres, Muk, Murkrow, Musharna, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, Probopass, Qwilfish, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash, Regice, Regirock, Registeel, Rhydon, Rhyperior, Samurott, Sawk, Scyther, Seismitoed, Shedinja, Shiftry, Shuckle, Simipour, Simisear,Slaking, Spiritomb, Snover, Steelix, Swoobat, Tangrowth, Torterra, Typhlosion, Ursaring, Uxie, Victreebel, Vulpix, Walrein, Weezing, Whiscash, Zangoose

NeverUsed (Pokemon not banned from any tier):

Ampharos, Arbok, Ariados, Audino, Banette, Bayleef, Beartoc. Beautifly, Beedrill, Bellossom, Bidoof, Boldore, Bronzor, Burmy, Camerupt, Carnivine, Castform, Charmeleon, Chatot, Cherrim, Chimecho, Chinchou, Clefairy, Combusken, Corsola, Croagunk, Croconaw, Delcatty, Delibird, Dewgong, Dewott, Dodrio, Dragonair, Drowzee, Ducklett, Dunsparce, Duosion, Dustox, Eelektrik, Ekans, Electabuzz, Emolga, Exeggcute, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Foongus, Garbodor, Gastrodon, Girafarig, Glalie, Gloom, Golbat, Gothorita, Granbull, Graveler, Grimer, Grotle, Grumpig, Gulpin, Heatmor, Hypno, Illumise, Jigglypuff, Kadabra, Kecleon, Koffing, Kricketune, Ledian, Lickitung, Lileep, Linoone, Lombre, Lopunny, Lumineon, Lunatone, Luvdisc, Magcargo, Magmar, Mantine, Maractus, Marshtomp, Masquerain, Mawile, Meditite, Meganium, Mespirit, Metang, Mienfoo, Mightyena, Minun, Misdreavus, Mr.Mime, Munchlax, Natu, Nidorina, Nincada, Noctowl, Octillery, Onix, Pachirisu, Palpitoad, Paras, Parasect, Pelliper, Persian, Phione, Pidgeot, Pidgeotto, Pignite, Pikachu, Piloswine, Pineco, Plusle, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Primeape, Pupitar, Purrloin, Purugly, Rapidash, Raticate, Regigigas, Relicanth, Remoraid, Riolu, Scraggy, Seaking, Sealeo, Seel, Servine, Seviper, Shelgon, Shellos, Shelmet, Shieldon, Simisage, Skuntank, Slowpoke, Solrock, Snorunt, Spinda, Stantler, Staravia, Staryu, Stunfisk, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Swablu, Swalot, Swanna, Tangela, Tauros, Tentacool, Throh, Togetic, Torkoal, Tropius, Unfezant, Unown, Vanilluxe, Venonat, Vespiquen, Vigoroth, Vileplume, Vullaby, Wailord, Wartortle, Watchog, Weepinbell, Whirlipede, Wigglytuff, Wingull, Woobat, Wooper, Zebstraika, Zweilous

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Rule #1- Discussion of these Tiers should be kept off of the main server chaat.

Back channels are fine, and posting the log if something is decided might be nice- but for the most part let's try and keep tier discussion to the forum (server talk about tiers tends to turn hostile). Preferably this topic, but if a single Pokemon warrants a high amount of debate, a separate topic can be made for it.

Rule #2- ITT: Opinions

And chances are, someone does not share the same opinion as you. But we are contesting ideas, not people. Remain respectful of those ideas, and the people behind them.

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So we've got our suspects, but then a few more nominations for ban. You're probably either wondering why in the world these would be nominated, or you've already figured it out because of Bidoof.

Moody.

The previous agreement on Reborn was that the Moody ability would be banned to OU. However, we do not actually have a method to enforce this, and Moody is being exploited in the lower tiers. So until we find a method that does work, we need to ban the individual Pokemon, or let Moody persist. I'm opting for the former, even if it's just temporary.

There are only a handful of Moody Pokemon, and of them, Smeargle is already OU. I've disincluded Remoraid and Snorunt do to their frailty- I think their set up even in NU is a far cry. Bidoof on the other hand does have the bulk to viably use Eviolite, and thereby, as ridiculous as it may be, could probably stand to be taken out of NU. The evolved forms however, definitely prove problematic. Glalie has respectable speed to get quick subs (provided it doesn't chance a speed drop), while the other two both have... marginal...bulk. Enough to be annoying after a few boosts, anyway.

Where do we want to put these guys? I'll move onto the Suspects after this is settled.

[Bullet]

^{Well, Moody kinda fails without leftovers for healing. Sooo, idk, Bidoof argument is kinda invalid :I}

[Guest]

Move Bidoof up

insta rape

Leave it where it is >_>

[Amethyst]

And the others?

[Bullet]

I'd say ban all of them(the fully evolved moody users) until there's a way to ban the ability individually, but it's not exactly up to me to decide xd

[Voctrode]

There IS a way to get rid of it entirely on the server for now.

[Amethyst]

Just below OU?

[Kiozo]

There is an easy way to enforce a ban like that...but anyway.

I don't feel like there is a distinct need for it, really. I mean, it can stand to have double team and whatever strategy persist [although it's rather slower, you still can manipulate it.]

Sitting on Glalie, 80 Base speed isn't that great. If anything plans on being fast in that tier, it'll still decide to be faster than that if it's a sweeper or will just have bulk to take it's limited typings. I wouldn't be freaking out if I saw it run that particular ability, especially if it doesn't have much to do with it. Ice Beam is nice. But you don't have too much else.

Bidoof...seems like it's just tacked on because of the ability. Seriously...I don't think it's necessary.

Octillery is powerful, but really doesn't have speed or too great defenses. You'd be hurting before you could get going, I would think. That movepool is impressive and it'd be fearsome when it got going, but that's when it got going. It'd need time to gain the speed and evasion necessary. Not to mention it'd have to roll the right boosts in order to get there. It's your best shot, yeah, but your best shot is a long shot.

I don't think that tier should change.

Bibarel...I really don't think should be there. Moody doesn't even feel like it's best ability. I would rather just Curse under Simple and gain two attack and defense stages, and become something of a force than gain 2 special defense against the local fighting type. When it's between a controlled situation where you know what you're getting and have a chance, or an uncontrollable situation where you might not get anything...it's the same situation all the way around. It just doesn't feel like a random number is worth banning a Pokemon.

To me, it's like saying we'll ban Pokemon including Togepi because of Serene Grace.

But then again, hello Shaymin of the skys. I do miss you so.

My vote: wait it out until the script ban. Which I don't even really support anyway.

And to clear it up, Moody is the ONLY thing right now until that gets settled?

Side note.

*A note about Reborn's OU:

One of the greatest appeals of Reborn is that we do not follow Smogon tiering. Drizzle+SwiftSwim will not be banned here in the foreseeable future, and if it is (unlikely), SandStream+SandRush and Drought+Chlorophyll will go right along with it. Pokemon like Blaziken and Garchomp that have been banned by Smogon are probably not going to make it to Ubers here for the sake of preserving a (reasonably balanced) environment in which they can still be used. Shadow Tag Chandelure is another such case, but we have had an in depth discussion on it recently in which justification for its ban could not be logically resolved.

I know exactly why Smogon felt the way they did when they banned it...Just saying.

[Amethyst]

Do you know exactly how, Batl? The common sense method hasn't worked. ><

[Voctrode]

Well.. we can get rid of moody altogether by killing off the ability in the server's database. Though that would ban it in every tier so..

[Kiozo]

I don't know scripting at all so I can't tell you how but I saw it be made and enforced before for a different ability quickly.

[Amethyst]

Oh, so it's in the scripts rather than the tier file?

[Voctrode]

Yeah, Nyu can make a script that can stop non-OU teams from having it.

Smogon does it sorta.

Like you can't have a female Mamoswine with its dream world ability and stuff.

[Neo]

I wanna see Darkrai suspected for OU. I'll type out a better proposal later.

[A Pink Cheetah]

Demanding a revote on Absol and a revote on Crawdaunt. Also, Deoxys-S is too damn fast, has good attacking stats and can essentially set up a rape shit of damage against teams without spinners, and yes, they are quite fucking common. Also, Meloetta's decently fast with base 90 speed, extremely powerful with base 128 special attack and rather bulky with 100/77/128 ensures it'll survive against quite a few special hits, and a rather decent amount of physical ones. Slap on Relic Song, and it has a 20% chance of putting something to sleep, and then hits 128 speed and attack, making it much faster than hell of a lot in BL and even OU, and it can outpower a lot of them as well. It can effectively run an excellent mixed set, and absolutely destroy damn near any opponent in BL that goes against it.

[Noivy]

Absol and Crawdaunt are way to fragile to me moved out of LU.

The only time I ever had an Absol and had a decent run with it is with the classic Swords Dance Sucker Punch STAB. And Absol doenst get Moxie like Honchcrow so that pretty much renders it obsolete. Absol is also slower than what is commonly used, combine that with it's fragility, Absol will be completely out of place above LU.

As for Crawdaut, sure, it Might be a dancin Lobsta. But look at that crap speed stat. It prettymuch has to dance twice to achive the speeds reqired for sweeping. Not to mention it's crap HP level and that shitty Sp Defense. That pretty much means that it's fucked when a special sweeper comes in, out speeds it, and uses a STAB special move on it. Not to mention it's lack of priorty.

[Neo]

Full proposal GO! K, so I want Darkrai to be suspected for OU. '''His main attraction is sleep. Since Sleep Clause is a standard clause, that's a huge nerf right there. So then comes other stuff. We allow SB Blaziken, he's a major nerf. From what I've tested, after 1 SB my chicken outspeeds the standard Darkrai. I'll edit with moar soon. Typing from my phone is a bitch

[Cloud]

...okso.

Blaziken being in Uber offsets Darkrai...how? OHOKLOLSOAPOKEMONHASACOUNTERINATIERLET'SMOVEITDOWNDERP. If things worked that way, everything would always be moving, because there are counters to everything, everywhere in every tier. Blaziken also counters Dialga. Blaziken also counters Skymin after an SB. Blaziken counters a lot of the Uber tier. Are you gonna move Blaziken back down because it's a threat to Uber, and are you gonna move everything from Uber down because Blaziken cockblocks them? No, because the Uber tier is a banlist, it's not a metagame. (not completely opinionated, but I don't want a debate over that)

Sleep Clause does knock off one of Darkrai's main uses, but have you seen its base stats? 125 Speed and 165 Sp. Attack aren't amazing but they aren't anything to laugh at. Timid Max Speed Darkrai matches that of Weavile, and its special attack tops out at a nasty 405. Slap a Scarf or Specs on that thing and it rules OU minus priority fighting anything.

I probably have more to say but lazy.avi

[Neo]

Blaziken ain't Uber, nub. Like I said, I'll edit when I get get on my computer later.

[Cloud]

asdsadasdasdsad

Hm. Blaziken is possibly the only counter I see plausible. Although, +1 Blaziken won't outspeed Scarf Darkrai.

[Phazer]

BIDOOF UP!

Why:

-Simple (doubles any stat change)

-Amnesia gives a +4 Special Def boost

-Curse gives a +2 Atk and Def, lowers speed by 2 which doesn't matter.

[Cloud]

kk.

UU / BL -> OU

Bronzong

I'm impartial to Bronzong. It doesn't post any threats to UU, which is why I think it shouldn't be in OU. However, it DOES take OTHER Pokemon that would normally be threats in UU but aren't because of a weakness and makes them threats. A base HP of 67 isn't anything to really look at, neither are its defenses individually, but together, Bronzong makes up one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the lower tiers.

I would most likely vote it to OU if I needed to.

Meloetta

I've never used it, therefore, I don't care.

Starmie

Starmie is one of the only, and best, spinner in Underused. It also has a base 115 Speed, maxing out at 361 which outspeeds 3/4ths of UU, paired with an average special attack stat and one of the largest movepools known by man. I don't have anything to argue with Starmie. It's slightly OP for UU.

Quick note: yes, I know BL is a UU banlist, but I don't consider BL a metagame since you didn't specify it as such in the OP.

Suicune

Bulky monster. Crocune destroys everything. What say.

I can't speak for everything else, but those are my initial thoughts. Albeit limited thoughts, I have nothing more to say until I receive an argument.

[Bullet]

We're assuming Darkrai is just gonna sit there and sacrifice itself after Blaziken gets +1 Speed? There are 5 other Pokemon on a team, just saying.

[Cloud]

We're assuming Darkrai is just gonna sit there and sacrifice itself after Blaziken gets +1 Speed? There are 5 other Pokemon on a team, just saying.

Can anyone say Jellicent?

[Amethyst]

Can anyone say Dark Pulse?

Anyway, we treat BL as its own tier. But are we agreeing just to leave the Moodies where they are, then?