[OOC] Fate/Empty Vessel [Sign-Ups for Third War and Servants needed]

[Chevaleresse]

Makes a little more sense, I guess.

As for your comment, I would guess something about him being too new? Because if so I'd have to point out a couple things:

1. The Throne doesn't care about the time axis, unless you subscribe to the "Edison killed all the other heroic spirits" theory

2. He'd still be a pretty weak Servant, being new.

3. He's famous for his own exploits, not because he had equipment that made it possible.

[Shamitako]

Very well then, I shall fill all of the remaining slots myself and invent a second antagonist...

Keep in mind that while I'll be putting more plot into this than F/R, I'm largely working as a player myself and any masters or servants I play will be played as if I had no idea what the overall plot would be, even if they themselves are plot devices

But that's actually fine, if it gets the RP going I'll play more things. I just gotta finally push out an F/R post first

[rustytengo]

Makes a little more sense, I guess.

As for your comment, I would guess something about him being too new? Because if so I'd have to point out a couple things:

1. The Throne doesn't care about the time axis, unless you subscribe to the "Edison killed all the other heroic spirits" theory

2. He'd still be a pretty weak Servant, being new.

3. He's famous for his own exploits, not because he had equipment that made it possible.

regular fate cannon does, grand order cannon doesn't. keep in mind though even those really young servants in GO where still alive before the 1900's he wasn't born until after and he died 14 years ago.(don't mention EMIYA he has completely different stuff going on). also if technology can recreate it then its not something the that would qualify as him as a heroic spirit its the same as whats different between Magic and Magecraft. give me the right tech and i can do exactly what he did.

[Chevaleresse]

regular fate cannon does, grand order cannon doesn't. keep in mind though even those really young servants in GO where still alive before the 1900's he wasn't born until after and he died 14 years ago.(don't mention EMIYA he has completely different stuff going on). also if technology can recreate it then its not something the that would qualify as him as a heroic spirit its the same as whats different between Magic and Magecraft. give me the right tech and i can do exactly what he did.

lol

no

Managing 4+ kills a day, in a Scandinavian winter (i.e. it was super fucking dark all the time), with numerous countersniping operations going on, using a rifle with iron sights, and surviving an artillery shell to the face?

Besides, I don't think the "right tech" rule is a thing at all. You get hero points for soloing an army even though a B-52 can do the same thing in seconds.

Regular Fate canon explicitly states that the Throne lies outside the time axis; how the fuck do you think EMIYA was a thing? Yes I'm mentioning him because it's relevant; it shows that the Grail is capable of pulling a spirit that might not even exist after the events of the HGW from the future, regardless of said spirit's conditions. I'd also like to point out that Grand Order is canon.

[Shamitako]

Ahem: Time doesn't matter worth shit. Before some of the more recent servant releases I probably would have cut that off, but with the GO recent shenanigan-ness I'll be 100% allowing it. I mean there's already a girl from the future and a perfectly alive legendary creature in the pool, what's a guy who just died?

[rustytengo]

the throne has a cut off which is the start of the 1900's because of the very reason you stated that technology made it so anyone could pull off things once only done in legends. and yes that is cannon and is a rule that's why people like Rommel or Teddy Roosevelt aren't servants. yes it does cut people like you archer out too even though he had the abilities that would have made him a hero in the past

EMIYA by becoming a counter guardian cuts himself off of time. appearing where and when ever he is needed to keep balance that's why he can be summoned because he is also from the past as well as the future. the throne may not be in time but it still perceives it that's why heroic spirits are(usually) summoned in there prime and why there can be different versions of the same hero. That's how Scathach ends up being in the throne despite being immortal because in one time line she dies when the world gets destroyed along with the Land of Shadows.

....the feels when you go through typing a whole thing and get ninjaed right before hitting post., but still going to post it Bwahahahahah.

but like i said eariler Lexi all of those recent one still lived before the cut off so they would basically be grandfathered in i guess. and either way without Tesla or Edison what we have to day wouldn't exists that's kind why they are as strong as they are.

and yes time does matter for anything in the Nasuverse since (usually) the older the stronger ( hence why Gil is the strongest servant in cannon)

[Chevaleresse]

the throne has a cut off which is the start of the 1900's because of the very reason you stated that technology made it so anyone could pull off things once only done in legends. and yes that is cannon and is a rule that's why people like Rommel or Teddy Roosevelt aren't servants. yes it does cut people like you archer out too even though he had the abilities that would have made him a hero in the past

EMIYA by becoming a counter guardian cuts himself off of time. appearing where and when ever he is needed to keep balance that's why he can be summoned because he is also from the past as well as the future. the throne may not be in time but it still perceives it that's why heroic spirits are(usually) summoned in there prime and why there can be different versions of the same hero. That's how Scathach ends up being in the throne despite being immortal because in one time line she dies when the world gets destroyed along with the Land of Shadows.

....the feels when you go through typing a whole thing and get ninjaed right before hitting post., but still going to post it Bwahahahahah.

but like i said eariler Lexi all of those recent one still lived before the cut off so they would basically be grandfathered in i guess. and either way without Tesla or Edison what we have to day wouldn't exists that's kind why they are as strong as they are.

and yes time does matter for anything in the Nasuverse since (usually) the older the stronger ( hence why Gil is the strongest servant in cannon)

Show me something that actually proves that the throne cuts off at the 1900s. Like, a hard and fast rule. Tech existing doesn't make extraordinary feats any less extraordinary. It says that Heroic Spirits are vanishingly rare because of this tech problem, yes, but that doesn't mean that it automagically invalidates truly exceptional accomplishments. The only feasible argument here is the Edison theory (which says that his spreading of mass media essentially made it impossible for mystery to build up around humans) but you're not even using it. Instead you're saying that something that required an extraordinary feat of skill just... doesn't count, because bombs exist?

Besides, the entirety of the Fate canon consists of rules that were broken by somebody.

[Code: PIRULUK]

I would like to point out that Mata Hari existed after 1900, and only became famous after 1905.

Also the Phantom of the Opera was published in 1909.

[rustytengo]

Mata Hari

Exotic dancer

Margaretha Geertruida "Margreet" MacLeod, better known by the stage name Mata Hari, was a Dutch Frisian exotic dancer and courtesan who was convicted of being a spy and executed by firing squad in France ... Wikipedia

Born: August 7, 1876, Leeuwarden, Netherlands

Died: October 15, 1917, Vincennes, France

Full name: Margaretha Geertruida Zelle

Children: Louise Jeanne MacLeod, Norman-John MacLeod

Books: The Diary of Mata Hari, The Secret Diary of Mata Hari, The Unexpurgated Diary of Mata Hari

Nicknames: M'greet, Mata Hari

she was born before though

and phanotm of the opera

The novel is partly inspired by historical events at the Paris Opera during the nineteenth century and an apocryphal tale concerning the use of a former ballet pupil's skeleton in Carl Maria von Weber's 1841 production of Der Freischütz.^[2] Nowadays, it is overshadowed by the success of its various stage and film adaptations. The most notable of these are the 1925 film depiction featuring Lon Chaney and Andrew Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical.

its based off of something that happened before and is the most well know version of it.

yes fate had rules waiting to be broken (keep in mind i never say anything about that you can't use them) but they are there to stop things like Superman or Batman from becoming servants.

look at the web site beast lair they actually talk about this exact thing and person.

[Chevaleresse]

Yeah but this isn't Batman or Superman, this is a real man with real achievements.

Also please link directly to this "1900 cutoff."

[Code: PIRULUK]

Mata Hari

Exotic dancer

Margaretha Geertruida "Margreet" MacLeod, better known by the stage name Mata Hari, was a Dutch Frisian exotic dancer and courtesan who was convicted of being a spy and executed by firing squad in France ... Wikipedia

Born: August 7, 1876, Leeuwarden, Netherlands

Died: October 15, 1917, Vincennes, France

Full name: Margaretha Geertruida Zelle

Children: Louise Jeanne MacLeod, Norman-John MacLeod

Books: The Diary of Mata Hari, The Secret Diary of Mata Hari, The Unexpurgated Diary of Mata Hari

Nicknames: M'greet, Mata Hari

she was born before though

and phanotm of the opera

The novel is partly inspired by historical events at the Paris Opera during the nineteenth century and an apocryphal tale concerning the use of a former ballet pupil's skeleton in Carl Maria von Weber's 1841 production of Der Freischütz.^[2] Nowadays, it is overshadowed by the success of its various stage and film adaptations. The most notable of these are the 1925 film depiction featuring Lon Chaney and Andrew Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical.

its based off of something that happened before and is the most well know version of it.

yes fate had rules waiting to be broken (keep in mind i never say anything about that you can't use them) but they are there to stop things like Superman or Batman from becoming servants.

look at the web site beast lair they actually talk about this exact thing and person.

Yes Mata Hari was born before 1900, but the acts which would qualify her as a hero happened after 1900. People aren't famous because they were born, they're famous because they did things. Ergo, the depiction of Mata Hari as a hero would have occurred post-1900s. Ergo, if the throne of Heroes truly did have a 1900 cutoff, there is no way Mata Hari could have been a Heroic Spirit, because the deeds that qualify her as a hero occurred after that date.

[rustytengo]

there isn't a direct link its something Nasu said in a interview

here what i can find anyway

Actually, yes there is, even if I disagree.
Or rather, Nasu said it is very unlikely a modern warrior's NP would be a gun, and the gun itself would become a Heroic Spirit.

or something. it was dumb.

An accomplishment done with modern weapons wouldn't make someone a heroic spirit, and nowadays people can't be heroic spirits due to the requirements having become too steep to the point that saving the world is mundane.

It says nothing about someone who became a heroic spirit for some other reason being unable to have modern(ish, before the cut-off date obviously) weapons.

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/5112-Fate-Grand-Order-General-Discussion/page266

she also died in 1917 so most of what she did was really early in there so she would fall into grandfathered in for the most part do to the fact she was born before

Edited April 8, 2016 by rustytengo

[Code: PIRULUK]

I'm searching through the threads on 2ch and swiki and I'm not finding anything about a 1900 cutoff...

[Chevaleresse]

See, my point here is that it wasn't the gun. The rifle he used didn't become famous, and the only thing that makes him "faceless" is that half of it was literally blown off. It was a good gun, yes, but it wasn't "this rifle was super advanced, so he could do all these things." It was "this guy is very skilled with this weapon, therefore he could pull this amazing feat off." I'm not seeing anything on there that outright says it's impossible for him to become a Heroic Spirit. Unlikely, sure, I'll give you that, but not impossible. Beast's Lair declaring that he's a meme doesn't invalidate the accomplishments.

[rustytengo]

its not a exact date hence why most say around the start of 1900's i found the actual question and answer like to a few post down where i was looking.

Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?


A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul. (Note: e.g. bind a soul to a sword)

I never said he couldn't i would say he would have to be really weak like Mata Hari do to just how young he is. and besides what he did well impressive to people like use was not something really unheard of or anything. he got he face blown off and kill a lot of be people its really not that impressive in my head.

another way to think on it is like this. with out the gun could he of done what he did?

Edited April 8, 2016 by rustytengo

[Shamitako]

Tell me, how many people have you heard of who have single-handedly killed over 500 people with a single-target weapon, modern or otherwise?

Now narrow that list down to those who did it in extreme conditions (severe cold, heat, monsoons, whatever situation human bodies weren't made for)

And then narrow it again to those who did it within a hundred days

Does his feat still sound unimpressive to you? Something anyone well-trained with a gun could manage? I doubt there's many, if any at all, Olympic sharpshooters who could do that

No, he wouldn't have achieved this feat without a gun, because his talents were perfectly suited to using one. Although I wholeheartedly believe he still could have achieved it with a much older rifle model from the early 1800s

Speaking of, the type of gun he used began service before 1900 (1891 to be exact, although I couldn't find a date for the exact model I'm sure he could have manage with another model of Mosin-Nagant) So please, continue spouting nonsense about a 1900 cutoff, it still doesn't matter. These feats were achievable before then, the only reason they weren't is because the war and the warrior that they could be made under weren't conceived before then

Oh, and

If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons

I'd like to point out that this guy was hardly loaded with modern weapons, he used one gun. One simple, bolt-action sniper rifle. Her wasn't some guy carrying around an arsenal that made it so he was basically invincible

He was one man with one gun whose very name struck fear into his enemies

I never said he couldn't i would say he would have to be really weak like Mata Hari do to just how young he is.

the throne has a cut off which is the start of the 1900's...and yes that is cannon and is a rule that's why people like Rommel or Teddy Roosevelt aren't servants.

>_>

EDIT: This discussion gave me a terrible yet wonderful idea

Character (RPer): Boeing B-17 "Flying Fortress" (Lexi)

Container: Robert K. Morgan, pilot and commander of the Memphis Belle

Classes: Rider, Archer

Alignment: Neutral Good

Parameters

Strength: D

Endurance: A

Agility: C

Mana: E

Luck: D

Phantasm: B

Class Skills

Riding C (A plane better know how to fly, raised to C+ when piloting an air vehicle of any kind)

Magic Resistance D (The B-17 was built to combat physical foes, any magic resistance it has is purely from its legendary status as an icon of the American Air Force and WWII)

Personal Skills

Independent Action B (The B-17 was built for long range bombing missions without escort)

Battle Continuation B (The B-17 was built to remain flyable despite extensive damage)

Honor of the Battered C (As it was designed to perform while damaged, the more damage B-17 takes the more its true strength is revealed)

Noble Phantasms:

Storm of Hellfire and Iron, Assault from Beyond the Sky (D, Anti-Army)

Calls down a barrage of bombs which drop randomly within 1000 feet of B-17s location and have an explosion radius of approximately 400 feet. The inaccuracy of this phantasm makes it very tough to use against an opponent (and it's more accurate than reality). However against a large force of enemies it could prove useful thanks to its large area of effect

Freedom's Emissary, Icon of Power (B, Anti-Army)

Calls on an actual B-17G Flying Fortress to come to B-17's aid. It is summoned in motion around the pilot and needs a large area around it in all directions to successfully appear. However once summoned all of its guns will be armed and ready to take on opponents and its bay stocked with a full payload. It lives up to its name as a fortress, capable of taking tons of damage before finally falling from the sky. It is the truest essence of Allied hope and US victory

[Bfroger6]

Do ya still need a Master? Cuz if you really don't wanna have to play that many chars, I could step out of my way with a Master. And if so, would you prefer a silent inuit shaman or an over-the-top-knight-in-shining-armor kind of lass running around with a rapier in her hand and way too much enthusiasm for her own good?

Cuz I can't seem to decide. I mean, we do lack some competing girls. I don't wanna stick another male in the play.

[Chevaleresse]

I'd like to see the latter.

[rustytengo]

okay Lexi that is horrible though for servants like that pusdo or what ever there called servants actually make a lot of sense. though you putting a weapon on the same level as hero's.(then again if it was the person who invented the plane or invented flight.....nevermind i didn't jsut get any ideas)

though i do want to thank all of you guys last night for the discussion/argument/whatever you want to call it. i kind of needed it or i would of been in a bad spot last night.

Bfroger go with the girl.

Tell me, how many people have you heard of who have single-handedly killed over 500 people with a single-target weapon, modern or otherwise?

Now narrow that list down to those who did it in extreme conditions (severe cold, heat, monsoons, whatever situation human bodies weren't made for)

And then narrow it again to those who did it within a hundred days

Does his feat still sound unimpressive to you? Something anyone well-trained with a gun could manage? I doubt there's many, if any at all, Olympic sharpshooters who could do that

No, he wouldn't have achieved this feat without a gun, because his talents were perfectly suited to using one. Although I wholeheartedly believe he still could have achieved it with a much older rifle model from the early 1800s

Speaking of, the type of gun he used began service before 1900 (1891 to be exact, although I couldn't find a date for the exact model I'm sure he could have manage with another model of Mosin-Nagant) So please, continue spouting nonsense about a 1900 cutoff, it still doesn't matter. These feats were achievable before then, the only reason they weren't is because the war and the warrior that they could be made under weren't conceived before then

lets see Samson killed a whole army with a Jaw bone of an ass. plenty of hero's have a lot higher kill counts with swords and other things. though kill counts really wasn't a thing since its kind of hard to even tell who killed who in a war even in modern wars.

and to break down that feat of killing 500 well

killing 500 in around 100 days means he just needed to kill around 5 people a day. yes he did it in a blizzard or whatnot but that also the only reason he managed to kill that many since they couldn't find them. and he was in a target rich environment with targets who the most part would have been siting ducks do to the weather. well yes it is interesting but plenty of people killed less and actually changed things those 500 deaths didn't change a thing in the war. i find it a lot more impressive to kill say 10 people in a few minutes them 500 in nearly a third of a year.

even if he could do it with another gun its still is the gun that makes the feats possible.

Nothing he did hits me as something no one else could do without sufficient training.

[Chevaleresse]

Dude, go read up on it, then come back, thsnk you.

[rustytengo]

i did and it still doesn't seem that impressive to me sorry to say.

[Stalkerkain]

So I heard you need more masters.

But (I believe) you know how much RP experience I have, so it's your call entirely whether or not to let me pick up a second character.

A new challenger appears! (maybe)

Character (Player): Tomokazu Maki (Kain)

Gender: Female

Age: 21

Alignment: True Neutral

Appearance: A tidy young lady who always dresses to impress. Her vision is rather bad, requiring her to wear thick glasses at all times. Her long, riveting hair extends all the way to her waist when not tied up. She enjoys wearing traditional Japanese clothing, and will tend to wear a kimono claiming that it's more "comfortable". Her pale blue eyes, along with a piercing gaze gives her a stern appearance. Her command seals reside on her left hand.

Personality: Clumsy. Often fumbles over simple tasks, and is prone to tripping. On her face. Maki is often childish, and has a penchant for pulling pranks on people. Her parental figures had hoped she

would grow out of her mischievious phase, but even after turning into an adult she hasn't changed from when she was a child. Whenever things go awry, she tends to get flustered and make poor decisions.

History: Maki grew up in the same clan as Richard, learning Magecraft alongside him. Because of all the trouble she got in as a child, Richard was often there to look out for her. It didn't take long for her to develop a crush on Richard. However, as soon he declared he was leaving the clan for marriage, she begged him to stay. She was even willing to leave the clan to chase after him. Despite her protests, Maki was left heartbroken, as Richard made her promise to stay with the clan. After that, she desperately trained harder to catch up to Richard, in hopes of one day that she'll impress him and win his heart. She awaits the day when she'll be selected for the Holy Grail War, in hopes of winning it for herself, rather than her clan.

Skills: Trained dilligently in the use of Fire magic, Maki has the best defensive capabilities in her clan. Because she is rather lacking at offence, she makes up for it by using a magically-modified handgun. Dubbed, "The Widower", this Mystic Code was created specifically for Maki. She is able to compress her mana into bullets. The Widower is able to amplify the power of these bullets, causing them to explode upon contact. The recoil, however, is enough to stagger Maki backwards.

Maki a better marksman than the average person, but is by no means an expert.

Servant: Odysseus (Archer) (Her clan is able to provide a catalyst).

[Shamitako]

You're seriously saying that a man who was so dangerous that entire artillery units were sent out to kill just him didn't achieve a superhuman feat?

As for Samson, you missed two of the conditions:

1) Samson didn't have to deal with unlivable conditions. White Death guy wasn't just in "a blizzard or something" it was freezing temperatures that could easily have killed him. Go stand outside in -40 degrees for an hour, then come back and tell me "anyone" could do it for days on end

2) Samson wasn't just a person, he very specifically had supernatural powers backing him. Which means that he as a person couldn't necessarily have achieved the feat. Now Fate allows for people aided by the supernatural, but that's not the discussion we're having. The discussion we're having is whether or not a normal human aided by nothing more than some training and a gun could kill 5 people a day in temperatures and weather that could easily have been the death of them if they made even the smallest misstep

The argument we're having here is whether White Death guy actually qualifies as a normal human or something more. Since you said that any normal human could achieve those things with enough training and dedication. What I'm trying to say is that the level of training and dedication required to achieve these insane feats, to become the greatest fear of an entire army is in itself superhuman

Kill ten people in under a minute isn't hard, people do it all the time. Persevering through impossible conditions for months on end all the while undergoing the psychological and physical strain of killing a little over five people a day is hard

As for B-17, I didn't put a weapon on the level of a heroic spirit, I put a symbol of the US Air Force's strength and victory in WWII on the same level as other symbols throughout history by channeling it through the pilot of the most famous example of said symbol. I was just following from the quote you said saying that a weapon was more likely to be credited for heroism than the user of the weapon. The quote also said that the weapon needed a soul. And well, the B-17 is the soul of the USAAF so...

Also with the Wright Brothers, already started working on them as soon as a I finished B-17... (I'm not that far tho, zo if you can actually make a good servant out of them then I'm fine with giving them up)

[rustytengo]

yes i am. because even if he was surviving the weather and what not he wasn't the only one. there was the rest of the Finnish army who where holding Kollaa doing it too. He just happens to be the person who had the highest death count there.

to become the greatest fear of a whole army isn't usual in history. the Spanish hero El Cid was so feared by his enemies that after he died his army put his corpses on top of his horse and brought it to a battle to just to demoralizes the enemy and it worked. Hell wasn't the guy from American Sniper feared just as much by terrorist?

I actually like the idea for B-17 even if it didn't sound like i did. though a spirit, soul and symbol are three very different things.

i probably won't be able to come up with much for the Wright Brothers really so feel free to make them.

[Bfroger6]

Aight, I'll poop out a sheet today ~