[WIP] Pokemon Reborn In-Game Viability Ranking (Updated for Episode 15)

[LordWallace]

Hello there! My name is LordWallace and I am here with Heliosan and we are tackling the daunting task of creating a viability ranking for this game to help you in your Pokemon Reborn quest!

Of course, a task as big as this would be near impossible without the help of the community and thats where YOU come in! In this thread, you are encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that we can find in Pokemon Reborn and what tier they should be in. These are mostly preliminary rankings, feel free to nominate to move a Pokemon up or down as well as adding Pokemon that arent on the list yet.

A Pokemons rank is decided by these factors:

Availability - How early is the Pokémon found? Does it require considerable backtracking or TM/HM moves? The earlier you find a Pokémon, the better they are in this category. Pokémon that require considerable backtracking and/or HM moves are generally lower than other Pokémon.

Typing - What is the Pokémon's typing? How good is it in Reborn? The better a Pokémon's typing for an efficient Reborn run, the higher the rank.

Stats - What are the Pokémon's stats? How good are they for efficient in-game runs? The better a Pokémon's stats for in-game runs, the higher they will be ranked. This is probably the most important category, as it can override the rest of the categories if the stats are good enough (e.g Groudon and Kyogre) but can also cripple Pokémon (e.g Luvdisc). Defensive Pokémon are generally ranked lower than offensive Pokémon, as they are less efficient.

Movepool - What moves does the Pokémon get? In a game like Reborn with limited access to good TMs and move tutors, the level up or natural movepool becomes the most important component here. Pokémon with a wider range of useful natural moves are generally ranked higher than Pokémon with shallower movesets.

Major Battles - How does the Pokémon fare in major battles, such as Gym Leaders, fights against your rivals,l and Team Meteor admins/leaders? The better a Pokémon does against these major fights, the higher they are ranked.

A proper ranking proposal for a Pokemon currently without a rank, or if you want to provide a description for a Pokemon already on the list without one, should be in the format shown below.

Torchic - Combusken - Blaziken for S Rank
Availability: 0-13 badges
Movepool: (Fantastic, Pretty Good, Okay, Bad, or Supremely Awful)
Comments: (some rationale for your nomination, why is it better than Pokemon in ranks below it? Which major battles is it useful in? What does it contribute to a Reborn in-game team? etc.)

A few disclaimers and notes:

• The comments section of some Pokemon obtained later in the game MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS, read those at your own risk.
• Due to Pokemon Reborns length and level of difficulty, unlike other in-game tier lists, Pokemon in Reborn will be ranked comparatively. (ex. Why use Pansear when you can get Growlithe a bit later, or Litwick much later, both of which perform much better? Or choose Chimchar as a starter? This WILL affect Pansears rank).
• Some Pokemon may be ranked more than once if its available earlier than usual due to a limited event (ex. Getting Turtwig as a starter makes it more viable than getting it at Agate Circus)
• Please give rational feedback to where each Pokemon is tiered and give sufficient reasoning as to why a Pokemon should be moved up or down.
• Lets keep this as a no-ego environment and provide constructive criticism of each other.

Note about the Police Mystery Egg Event (EP 15 Update):

There is an event where you can choose to rescue Police Officers in various situations. If you rescue all of them, then you get to keep a Growlithe. There will be another office in the station that will ask for a Growlithe egg and as a reward, he will give you a Mystery egg in return.

Before EP 15, it was always an Azurill, but now it will be a randomly selected Pokemon out of the list below.

This mystery egg is set as soon as your save file begins, so no amount of soft-resetting will get you a new Pokemon. That being said, if a Pokemon is ONLY available via this event, then keep in mind that you won't have access to it if you got something else from that event.

The list of Pokemon you can have in the Mystery Egg are:

Axew
Larvesta
Frillish
Tentacool
Togepi (can be received in Coral Ward during E9)
Vullaby
Shroomish
Drilbur (can be found in the wild in Deep Tanzan in E14)
Staryu
Azurill (If save file is started before E15, Azurill will always be hatched)
Pawniard (found on Route 4)
Rhyhorn (found on Route 2)
Elekid (found in Calcenon City, need Electivizer)
Phantump (found on Route 4 at night I believe)
Starly (found on Route 3)
Cottonee (found on Route 4, daytime)
Vulpix (available at Obsidian Salon in E14, available somewhere at Agate Circus in E15)
Sneasel (also available in a late event in E15)

[:


S-Rank: These Pokemon are arguably the best in the game, being able to hold their own from the instant you get them, which is usually very early, to much later in the game. They never really lose their usefulness, and are the Pokemon you should be using if you want the smoothest and easiest play though.

S+

Torchic - Combusken - Blaziken

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: The OG Uber starter Pokemon you can get in this game. It learns all of its necessary STAB moves in every stage of the game. Speed Boost + Bulk Up (at level 31) allows it to become a monster that can sweep entire enemy teams whether they be gym leaders or Team Meteor skrubs. While it has suboptimal bulk, it greatly makes up for it in the ability to sweep. The only time Blaziken gets kind of slowed down is against the last two gym leaders of Episode 15, which hopefully by then you have a good team.

S

Bunnelby - Diggersby

Availability: 2 badges.
Movepool: Pretty Good.
Comments: DIGGERSBY THO?! That aside, this seemingly benign bunny can really tear things up with Huge Power boosted STAB priority Quick Attack, Earthquake, and other good moves it gets naturally by leveling up. It also gets Bounce at level 42 to help against pesky Grass and Fighting types. It does require some Heart Scales to get some of the moves it needs, but it will pay dividends for you. Diggersbys bulk and speed tends to wane a little towards the later stages of the game, but it still manages holds up its weight with its awesome strength and STAB moves throughout Episode 15.

Azurill - Marill - Azumarill

Availability: 2 badges (1 / 18 chance to get it as a Mystery Egg from the Police Egg Event)
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: One of the staple Pokemon in OU and VGC, this water bunny is one of the best if not the best Water type in the game with its fantastic Water / Fairy coverage and typing. Despite not having easy access to Aqua Jet outside breeding, Azumarills amazing bulk along with Huge Power and learning Aqua Tail and Play Rough by level 25 just makes this thing a monster in all stages of the game. Biggest drawback is that it is now only a Mystery egg that is determined from the beginning of your save file and you still have to hope to get one with Huge Power (unless you dont mind breeding for a Huge Power one or using an Ability Capsule, which is also available relatively early). If you get this monster, by all means, use it.

A Rank: These Pokemon are almost always useful, but are held back from the S-tier for one reason or another. They usually have good stats, decent availability, good movepool and can usually handle themselves in battles.

A+

Chimchar - Monferno - Infernape

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: The Fire/Fighting cousin puts itself in the A+-rank with its fantastic stats that allow Infernape to become a formidable mixed sweeper and it also gets the moves it needs throughout the game. Close Combat at level 36 is just devastating at that stage of the game. Acrobatics and Grass Knot give it a whole new dimension of coverage. Taunt is a great utility option. Flare Blitz esp with Blaze just nukes non Fire resistant Pokemon. While it is definitely is not a bulky Pokemon, it has the power to punch holes into the enemy team and be an asset in all stages of your Pokemon Reborn quest.

Axew - Fraxure - Haxorus

Availability: 2 badges (1 / 18 chance to get it as a Mystery Egg from the Police Egg Event)
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Unfortunately it is only available via mystery egg, but if you get this little dino, its a great sweeper available disgustingly early.Even though Haxorus only really gets Dragon STAB via level-up and the lack of good TMs really hurts, it learns Dragon Dance and Dragon Claw by level 32 which around then can decimate entire teams, that combined with decent bulk and a plethora of resistances to set up on makes the Axew family a blessing if you hatch it. Anything that is not a bulky Fairy or Steel type is gonna get destroyed.

Drilbur - Excadrill

Availability: 2 badges (1 / 18 chance to receive as a Police Mystery Egg)
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: Excadrill is one of the flagship specials for any B/W/B2/W2 Nuzlocke and in Pokemon Reborn, it is an absolute monster...if you even get it. Unfortunately Excadrill can only be received via the egg in Episode 15. However, if you do get it, Excadrill will be one of the best Ground types that you have access to and it will be an asset in all stages of the game. Relatively early Mold Breaker Earthquake is just amazing in a world full of Levitating and Sturdy Pokemon and makes Shade much less painful. It boasts a great level up movepool, most notably learning all it needs by level 42 when it gets Swords Dance to power up its Earthquakes, Rock Slides, and Metal Claws. Ground / Steel provides great typing for the team and you wont be disappointed in adding Excadrill to your team unless you expect it to outspeed everything out there.

Makuhita - Hariyama

Availability: 1 Badge
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: Despite facing direct competition from a variety of great Fighting types available in Reborn, Hariyama holds itself up as a strong contender to consider for a team. First of all, its available early and evolves early too, just in time to face off against Florinia and her Cradily, making it immediately useful in battle. In addition, Hariyamas usefulness only grows as the game progresses as it gains useful coverage moves such as Knock Off and Heavy Slam, giving it the tools to carry its weight in battles where it has a type disadvantage. Hariyama even gets Fake Out to support the team in Reborns various double battles, and its low speed can be circumvented by Force Palms paralysis chance. To top it all off, Hariyama gets the coveted STAB Close Combat to fire off from a 120 Atk stat, good bulk courtesy of 144 Base HP, and a fantastic ability in Thick Fat, enabling it to compete well against a couple of the tougher trainers in the late game (specifically Blake and Charlotte).

Archen - Archeops

Availability: 6 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Dont let Archeops shitty ability fool you, its a wrecking house recommended on any team that can fit it in. By far the best offensive Flying type in the game, Archen comes at a point in the game where Gym Leaders and other major battlers are starting to get much bulkier and in order to catch up offensively why pass up a Pokemon with 140 Atk, 110 Speed, and 110 BP STAB move almost right off the bat? Archeops never fails to do work in any of the major battles from this point forward, in particular smashing Samson, Blake, Charlotte, and Ciel with extreme ease. To make the deal even sweeter, even if Archeops is knocked into Defeatist it gets Endeavor to still leave a dent before checking out. Be warned though, if you dont do the Spinel Museum Event before Saphira blows up the Tanzan Meteor base, youll miss out on Archen for the rest of Episode 15 (you can still get the Plume fossil in Agate Circus but you wont be able to revive it).

Magnemite - Magneton - Magnezone

Availability: 3 badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Arguably the best Electric type that you have access to in this game, Magnemite is available at a very early part of the game and will pay dividends in all stages of the game. Steel/Electric is a fantastic typing offensively and defensively, backing up Magnezone's great stats. It learns all of its necessary moves (Discharge, Flash Cannon, Thunder Wave) by level 43 and not to mention it also can abuse Charge Beam which you get after the first gym. Sturdy and Analytic are both really good abilities for your Pokemon Reborn run whether it would be tanking an otherwise fatal move to get a final attack off or to take advantage of Magezones middling speed with Analytic and get a boost in power. The Magnemite family lends itself greatly to the mid-late game, helping tremendously against Aya, Cain, Serra, Noel, Radomus, Blake, and Ciel.

A

Scraggy - Scrafty

Availability: 3 badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: Scrafty is available at a fairly early level and also brings a lot to the table. Moxie and Intimidate are both fantastic abilities and if your level 30 Scraggy comes with Dragon Dance as an egg move and Moxie as its ability, you will have a powerful sweeper in your hands. Even if it doesnt, Scrafty can still carry its weight on a team because it has solid defensive stats, Fighting / Dark coverage is very good, and it learns all of its necessary moves by level 38 when it gets Crunch. Unfortunately Scrafty does not have access to Knock Off like Hariyama does and Fake Out is an egg move. Even so, Scrafty will definitely be a valuable asset to your team if you need the coverage and typing that it provides.

Froakie - Frogadier - Greninja

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Pretty Good (but mediocre mid-game)
Comments: The other Uber starter Pokemon. Greninja is a really solid Pokemon in Reborn simply because Protean making every move STAB is a huge boost. Unfortunately Greninja is quite frail and does not have access to a lot of its best moves until quite late into the game due its mediocre level-up movepool, the lack of good TMs in the early-mid game, and lack of good move tutors for it. However, Greninja makes up for that with fantastic offensive stats and the ninja frog does have a solid early and late game despite suffering a bit in the middle. Because there is a lack of solid Water types in the game, Greninja can definitely make a case for itself to be chosen as your starter due to its great power and speed.

Vulpix - Ninetales

Availability: 2 badges (1 / 18 chance to get it from the Police Mystery Egg event)
Movepool: Pretty Good.
Comments: Ninetales is renowned for its Drought ability since receiving it in Gen 5 Dream World and it is no different here in Pokemon Reborn. The sun will nerf opposing Water types and give your Fire types a significant power boost. Vulpix learns all of the moves it really needs (Fire STAB, Will-O-Wisp, Extrasensory, Confuse Ray, etc.) until level 42 when it gets Fire Blast. Upon using the Fire Stone, you can go ahead and Heart Scale Nasty Plot onto your Ninetales for even more firepower. The biggest drawbacks for Vulpix is availability if you dont get it from the mystery egg and that it cant learn Solar Beam in this game due to that TM not being available thus making Rock / Ground types a difficult matchup. Not to mention Ninetales doesnt really have great stats, still, getting Drought at such an early point in the game gives Vulpix plenty of merit.

Heracross

Availability: 7 Badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: Even though it is available somewhat late in the game, Heracross is a powerhouse Pokemon that is available conveniently before quite a few gyms where it will have a very solid matchup. Megahorn and Close Combat available right off the bat is just insane amounts of power off of 125 Atk and a respectable 85 Speed. Guts and Moxie are both fantastic abilities and if you get Rock Blast as your egg move, you have a potent coverage move right off the bat too.

Clefairy - Clefable

Availability: 9 badges.
Movepool: Fantastic.
Comments: Despite Clefairy not being available until very late into the game and at level 30 while the rest of your team should be level 60+, Clefable can become a formidable sweeper thanks to having access to the ability Unaware as well as the stat boosting moves of Cosmic Power and Minimize via level-up. Even though Calm Mind is no longer an accessible TM in Reborn, Clefable can still carry its weight and sweep even the late gyms if you spend the time to level it up and setup the Minimizes and Cosmic Powers to sweep with Stored Power. The extra Ultra Potions you will inevitably be using to maintain Clefables longevity will be a worthy investment when it sweeps a late gym leader 1v6.

Fennekin - Braixen - Delphox

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: As a Fire type, Fennekin faces competition from its fellow Fire starters Torchic and Chimchar, and also from Pokemon like Growlithe and Litwick. However, Fennekin manages to differentiate from the other Fire types in the game by also being one of the only good Psychic types available in the early parts of the game, which can be a godsend against the likes of Corey, Kiki, and Aya.
In addition, Delphox has great stats and acquires most of what it needs via level up, including a strong early STAB in Psybeam, and later acquires Psyshock, Psychic, Flamethrower, and the coveted Will-o-Wisp.

Tynamo - Eelektrik - Eelektross

Frillish - Jellicent

Availability: 2 badges. (1 / 18 chance to get as a Police Mystery egg)
Movepool: Okay
Comments: Another solid Water type...only to be limited in availability thanks to the Police Mystery Egg. Jellicent's Water / Ghost is a very unique typing offering many great resistances to the team and also has access to solid STAB moves and Recover. Water Absorb and Cursed Body are both great abilities to work with and Jellicent's excellent bulk makes it a good candidate for some of the grueling late game battles where frailer Pokemon may start to falter. Unfortunately it cannot learn Scald and Will-O-Wisp due to those TMs not being available, but it still has a great bulk, respectable power, and can be a solid Trick Room setter once you get that TM.

A-

Swinub - Piloswine - Mamoswine

Availability: 3 badges
Movepool: Okay
Comments: The DPP OU anti-meta Pokemon returns and it is one of the best Ground types that are available in the game. Mamoswines unique Ground + Ice coverage is quite useful in all parts of the game and gets great stats coupled with a good ability in Thick Fat, ridding of a nasty Fire weakness and giving it a useful Ice resistance. It does require a little bit of babysitting in the early levels, but it will quickly become a very solid member of your team when it learns Earthquake to complement it's Ice coverage. Ice Shard is a fantastic STAB priority move to compensate for an only average 80 Speed stat. Unfortunately it doesn't get much else in it's movepool or any other good physical Ice STAB for that matter, though it does get access to Blizzard coming off a workable 70 SAtk stat if you feel the need for a more powerful Ice STAB.

Staryu - Starmie

Availability: 2 badges (1 / 18 chance to get as a Police Mystery egg)
Movepool: Okay
Comments: Yet another solid Water type that is unfortunately limited in availability due only being available via the Police Mystery Egg event. However, if you do get Staryu, it is definitely a very solid Water type to invest in because of its solid Water / Psychic coverage and it is quite fast. Natural Cure is a nice ability to have to absorb status for your allies and it also has a pretty good movepool. Main drawbacks is lacking access to Ice Beam and Thunderbolt for coverage as well as availability as stated earlier.

Litwick - Lampent - Chandelure

Availability: 8 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Litwick comes a bit late and at a low level..and before a gym where it has a terrible matchup. However, Litwick makes up for it by having amazing stats, a unique and good typing, access to Will-O-Wisp, a great ability in Flash Fire, and a decent level up movepool overall including strong STAB attacks in Shadow Ball and Overheat. Youll go through a bit of trouble finding a Dusk Stone but if you can get Chandelure, its one of the best Fire types in the game, managing to stand out with its unique typing and nuclear Special Attack.

Ralts - Kirlia - Gardevoir / Gallade

Availability: 5 badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Even though Ralts has been moved to a much later point in the game after two gyms where it would have had a fantastic matchup (darn it Ame), Gardevoir is still a very good Pokemon in the stages after that and will pay dividends if you take the time to invest into the level 10 Ralts you receive. Gallade is definitely an option too if you are lacking in the Fighting coverage department, but overall Gardevoirs Psychic + Fairy coverage is slightly better for most teams given that there are a lot more Fighting types available than Fairy types. Psychic at level 31 is just a very powerful attack (OP pls nerf) and with a Heart Scale or waiting till level 62, Gardevoir can also get Moonblast which completes its Dual STAB coverage to tear everything apart (minus Steel types).

Sandile - Krokorok - Krookodile

Murkrow - Honchkrow

Availability: 2 badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: The Crow is available at a pretty early stage of the game and at a nice level 25 with potential access to Prankster and Brave Bird that is worth soft-resetting for. The Moxie combination with Sucker Punch priority as a Honchkrow is just insane. Sucker Punch helps deal with Honchkrows middling speed and as long as you pick off a low HP Pokemon, the attacks just keep getting stronger. Definitely will be an asset against Shade, Kiki, Radomus and other major battles down the line.

Numel - Camerupt

Availability: 1 badge
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments: Numel definitely possesses the tools to become a menace in the early-mid game, learning its best STAB moves for a while by an astonishing level 26 (Lava Plume at 22 and Earth Power at 26) and having great matchups in several important early battles, including PULSE Tangrowth, Florinia, Shelly, and Corey. On top of that Numel evolves fairly early too and as Camerupt it only gets better as you learn both Earthquake and Rock Slide by level up for even more coverage. Numel is one of the best early game Fire types in the game due to its valuable secondary Ground STAB, two great abilities in Simple and Solid Rock upon evolving, and decent bulk. In addition, Camerupt is more than capable of performing well for the entire game, only suffering somewhat in the late game as its average bulk and abysmal speed really start to catch up to it by then, keeping it from going higher than A-.

Oshawott

B Rank: These are Pokemon that tend to be quite decent, provide a good experience with the difficulty of the game, while not being too hard to train or win with. They tend to missing a couple of key things that make them a lot better.

B+

Mudkip - Marshtomp - Swampert

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Okay
Comments: Despite being the only Water type starter to match up well against Julia, the Mudkip family still struggles considerably in the early game (especially against Florinia), having to put up with being painfully slow and having weak early STABs. That being said, once Marshtomp evolves and starts learning some of its better moves (Muddy Water and Earthquake), Swampert really catches its stride in the mid-game all the way to the end as one of the sturdiest, powerful, and most reliable starter Pokemon you can pick.

Tepig
Growlithe
Pancham
Phantump
Lotad
Venonat
Chespin
Helioptile

Woobat
Litleo

Budew - Roselia - Roserade

Availability: 0 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: Budew is like the Grass type version of Litwick, youll go through quite a bit of trouble for the final product (Roserade) which unfortunately, isnt quite as satisfying as Chandelure. Like most Grass types in Reborn, Roserade suffers from a poor level up movepool and being walled by every Steel type ever. Still, Roserade stands out from the crowd with an excellent ability in Natural Cure, very early access to Giga Drain via level up, a great early coverage option in Nature Power, access to Toxic Spikes + Venoshock, and great offensive stats. Probably the best Grass/Poison type in the game.

Shroomish - Breloom

Availability: 2 badges

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Breloom sits at an awkward 70 base speed, requiring investment in Jolly nature and Speed EVs to make up for its frailness. Technician Force Palm and Mach Punch get significant base power boosts, meaning it's able to KO or severely dent things weak to fighting. Seed Bomb gives a solid physical Grass STAB, also enabling Breloom to hit SE on 7 types. Unfortunately it's weak to 6 common types, so be prepared for this thing to kill or be killed.

Abra - Kadabra - Alakazam

Availability: 8 badges
Movepool: Pretty good
Comments: Alakazam is unfortunately available very late in the game compared to some other Psychic types that you have access to and it requires an investment of 8 purple shards and a link stone, but this Pokemon is definitely worth the investment if your team requires Psychic coverage and just overall fast offense. Unfortunately Alakazam doesnt have access to Shadow Ball or Focus Blast so its coverage is very limited to Psychic and Grass Knot, but a Calm Mind + Recover set along with Psychic as your primary STAB is not a set to be messed with.

Skrelp
Solosis
Tangela
Bulbasaur

Snubbull - Granbull

Availability: 2 Badges
Movepool: Fantastic
Comments:
Eat your heart out Teddiursa, Snubbull is a surprise contender after spending 4 Generations in the shadows. Available right after getting your second badge, Snubbull is a very solid Fairy type and one of the few of its kind that is a physical attacker. Snubbull comes potentially armed with the powerful Close Combat egg move, an outstanding ability in Intimidate, and a very early evolution at only level 23. As Granbull, you get almost perfect coverage in just Close Combat and Play Rough, but the bulldog Pokemon also gets some nice Heart Scale moves including access to Outrage if powerful neutral coverage is needed or the elemental fangs if specific coverage is desired, as well as getting Crunch by level up later for truly perfect coverage in just three moves. Granbull makes a fantastic partner versus Kiki, Shelly, Luna, and Samson, as well as being a solid bulky hard hitter in general. In the late game Granbulls rather average BST and awful Speed does come back to bite it so to speak but its service in the early-mid game puts it in B+.

Hippopotas

Vulpix - Ninetales

Availability: 9 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good.
Comments: Ninetales is renowned for its Drought ability since receiving it in Gen 5 Dream World and it is no different here in Pokemon Reborn. The sun will nerf opposing Water types and give your Fire types a significant power boost. Vulpix learns all of the moves it really needs (Fire STAB, Will-O-Wisp, Extrasensory, Confuse Ray, etc.) until level 42 when it gets Fire Blast. Upon using the Fire Stone, you can go ahead and Heart Scale Nasty Plot onto your Ninetales for even more firepower. If you miss out on Vulpix in the Police event you can instead get it in a trade at Agate Circus, however, this significantly hurts its viability.

Turtwig - Grotle - Torterra

Availability: 0 Badges

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Torterra can set up for days on most Physical attackers and then hit back with strong boosted STAB attacks. Curse is a clutch strategy that can used to decimate entire gym leaders single-handedly. Chances are that if Torterra begins to set up, the AI will have a tough time taking it down. It is unfortunately weak to certain special attackers, such as Arceus, PULSE Abra, and Muk/Swallot, so it will not be particularly useful there. It can, however, solo the Giant Steelix and most of Samson and Kiki's teams go down to it with ease.

Elektrike
Yamask

B

Zubat
Foongus
Palpitoad
Ponyta (Aqua Gang sidequest)
Yanma
Elekid
Mareep

Piplup - Prinplup - Empoleon

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Bad
Comments: The Piplup family is a major benefactor of two scarcities in Reborn, lack of good Water types, and lack of good Steel types. Empoleon happens to be both Water and Steel, making it fantastic defensively, and this is certainly complemented by respectable defensive stats and a solid SAtk stat. That being said, Empoleon has one major drawback that ultimately dooms it to be capped at B, its level up movepool, which in a game like Reborn with laughable TM distribution, can mean death in terms of a Pokemons viability.
Its quite simply, horrendous, and doesnt really play towards its good stats at all (though a physical Empoleon with Defiant could be interesing), with odd moves like Drill Peck and Metal Claw comprising the best Empoleon has to offer in terms of moves that arent Water type. Still, Empoleon's all around good stats, obviously early availability, and excellent typing cements it firmly in B

Totodile - Croconaw - Feraligatr

Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Okay
Comments: The King of UU has arrived and it is available right from the start! Sheer Force is a fantastic ability and having access to Crunch and Ice Fang by level 30 is just amazing coverage to couple with great all around stats and an incredibly early evolution cycle. Unfortunately you have to wait till level 63 to get Aqua Tail or whenever you get the HM for Waterfall to get a solid physical Water STAB attack. o make matters worse Feraligatr not only competes with some of the better water types in the game but also itself as it's event counterpart can carry Dragon Dance. But nonetheless Feraligatr is no Pokemon to mess with and in a world lacking solid early Water types, it definitely has a case to be your starter.

Tentacool
Deerling
Phanpy
Cacnea

Charmander

Cyndaquil
Wooper
Tortuga
Geodude

B-

Teddiursa

Growlithe - Arcanine:

Availability: 2 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: This could be a B rank, but getting a Fire Stone is a pain. The only 100% Fire Stone availability isn't until after Shade, which is a tad late when Crunch is so helpful there. Arcanine is a neat mixed attacker with access to Flare Blitz, Heat Wave, Crunch, Extreme Speed, Outrage and Thunder Fang. You're better off running this Physical though, since Heat Wave is the only mentionable special attack in Arcanine's repertoire. 95 speed gives it a chance to outspeed a lot of foes, and 90/80/80 bulk gives it a good chance at surviving a hit, especially against a Physical attacker if you're running Intimidate. Flash Fire and Justified are also good abilities to run, but suffer niche uses. What really cripples Arcanine is access to better Fire types like Ninetales and Chandelure once you hit the halfway point, meaning it only sees use for 8 gyms.

Spiritomb
Chinchou
Munna
Pawniard
Nuzleaf
Oddish (Vileplume)
Seel (Onyx Ward Event)
Nidorina
Nidoran (Male)
Torkoal
Larvesta

Aron
Petilil
Starly

C Rank: These pokemon are very middle of the ground. They have good redeeming qualities, but also have their share of negative ones too.

C+

Noibat
Treecko
Shinx
Espurr
Cubchoo
Lapras
Gothita
Onix (Steelix)
Shinx
Lillipup
Carvanha
Panpour

Stunky

Skorupi
Sigilyph
Natu

C

Squirtle
Klink
Duskull
Timburr
Machop
Mantyke
Swirlix
Cottonee
Druddigon
Spoink
Bellsprout
Buizel
Blitzle
Snivy
Wailmer
Bronzor
Wingull

C-

Koffing
Sandshrew
Roggenrola
Sewaddle
Sneasel
Togepi
Pansear
Ponyta (Route 1)
Cranidos
Drifloon
Turtwig (Agate Circus)
Pidgey

Kricketot
Seel (Iola Valley)
Kangaskhan

Pancham - Pangoro

Availability: 1 badge
Abilities: Mold Breaker (Useless in game), Scrappy, and Iron Fist.
Movepool: Mediocre
Comments: Pangoro is slow, has ok bulk, and hits hard. On top of being slow, Pangoro's early movepool is horrid, and aside from body slam it's most notable move before getting Hammer Arm via move tutor is Crunch, which it gets at level 42... Pangoro has 3 abilities, and it can make good use of Scrappy early on, but as the game progresses Iron Fist becomes the better of it's abilities. Once it gets some decent moves, it's speed is still crippling, and weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, and Flying don't help it in the slightest. It has a pretty good offensive STAB typing though. Despite my bias for the thing (I used it for the whole game on my most recent run, and I had to break my rule of no EV training to make it's speed not such a crippling issue), I can fully say Pangoro blows and I do not recommend it for long term use. Outclassed by basically every fighting type.

D Rank: These Pokemon are on the lower side of things. They tend to have more bad things about them than good things. If you want to have a challenge with this game, I'd recommend starting here and below.

Trubbish
Spinarak
Pinsir
Sableye
Ekans
Carbink
Bergmite
Whismur
Poochyena
Bonsly
Doduo
Grimer
Vanillite
Pineco
Vullaby
Patrat
Slugma
Spearow
Solrock
Lunatone
Pachirisu
Oddish (Bellossom)

Fail Rank: These are pokemon that have trouble getting anywhere. They tend to be hindered by many bad traits, and have very limited usefulness.

Rattata
Igglybuff
Ditto
Ledyba
Spinarak
Combee
Plusle/Minun
Castform
Onix
Slakoth
Zigzagoon
Plusle
Minun
Audino
Caterpie
Cherubi
Wurmple
Finneon
Goldeen
Luvdisc
Bidoof
Glameow
Buneary
Chikorita
Happiny
Surskit
Sunflora

Limbo: These Pokemon are technically available but for one reason or another cannot be given an appropriate ranking.

Beldum
Riolu
Aerodactyl

Edited November 15, 2015 by LordWallace

[AuthorReborn]

Let me submit a few:

Turtwig - Grotle - Torterra: B+

Availability- either a starter (0 badges) or available once you get to Agate Circus (post Luna) solid choice for a starter that isn't totally OP

Typing- Grass/Ground: decent, but has a lot of weaknesses

Stats: High Attack (109), High Defense (105), solid Health (95) and Special Defense (85)

Movepool- EQ via level-up, as well as Curse to set up and deal massive damage. Razor Leaf is the suggested Grass STAB move until Wood Hammer, as it is physical and it hits both targets in doubles. Synthesis is there if you are cheep and don't feel like buying potions. Breeding can be done to grab Rock moves for coverage. Crunch is there for coverage on Shade and Radomus. Leech Seed can be used for immortality. You can also breed Amnesia (via Snorlax, so post-Samson) to patch up the weaker special defense. Body Slam (breed from Chikorita or Tropius) can be run to paralyze your foes.

Major Battles viability: Torterra can set up for days on most Physical attackers and then hit back with strong boosted STAB attacks. Quick Claw Curse is a clutch strategy that can used to decimate entire gym leaders single-handedly. Chances are that if Torterra begins to set up, the AI will have a tough time taking it down. It is unfortunately weak to certain special attackers, such as Arceus, PULSE Abra, and Muk/Swallot, so it will not be particularly useful there. It can, however, solo the Giant Steelix and most of Samson and Kiki's teams go down to it with ease.

[Fumble]

I'll rank something when I get home, but I'll just suggest you have a mod delete some posts (after putting their rankings up, of course) and then adding some new posts for more space in case you run out.

Anyway, just wondering, are we ranking pre-evolution too? There are a couple of them up already, but I dunno.

[Simon]

Just PM me or any of the Global Mods if you need to delete posts (including this one). I'll probably pin this once more information is put up. Hopefully this doesn't die out like the other ones.

EDIT: Or you can make a discussion thread so I can move the posts here to there.

[Genesis]

I know this is still under construction but I see you listed Charmander under B-. Since all your other evos listed the full evo tree am I correct in assuming that Charizard is then also listed as a B-? If so I would like to know where he falls short?

He has good stats and decent movepool where he mainly lacks strong flying moves. He makes the early game so easy with dragon rage as charmander). I understand that with his typing he gets a x4 wekaness to rock and he also doesn't get move coverage to take out pokemon who are SE against him like water, electric and rock. With the flying he does become immune to ground types. Although he is also only available as a starter.

If I would to say, his weakness is that flying moves don't cover anything his fire moves already do other than fighting so he has a lot of overlapping in that regard. Would just like to know your reasoning though as I considered him A or B+ at the worst.

[mattrexargon]

duude, you are kinda missing the aron, teddirusa, and skorupi family. those guys are sick as well

[Loyalitie]

WHERS MAH TOGEKISS

I kind wasn't born with the gift of making reviews. It's really complicated to me t.t

But Togekiss is a very good mon! The super known Air Slash + Serene Grace and ExtremeSpeed priority + Aura Sphere who never miss AND Moonblast.

He's also a decent special tank, helped me so much with Luna.

Btw it's not good while Togepi - Togetic but after evolving it's a Monster Tank, seriously.

And his speed isn't too bad tho.

**I kind of can have exaggerated since Togekiss is my fav mon**

[dondon151]

On a previous in-game tier list thread I advocated dividing the tier list by availability because that would yield more useful information. It's impossible to compare whether, for example, Kricketot or Heracross is better when Kricketot is only amazing for the very beginning of the game and Heracross isn't even obtainable until half of the game is complete.

If a player were to use this tier list as a reference to answer the question, "what are my best options to use right now?" a tier list in which every Pokemon is listed cannot answer that question.

It would also make more sense to rank starters and random egg Pokemon separately because choosing or receiving one excludes all of the others. The random egg Pokemon especially should be segregated because some are obtainable much later in the game and their tier status would be substantially different depending on when you receive them.

Edited November 10, 2015 by dondon151

[Dragon116]

Bonsly-Sudowoodo : A+

Availability: 1 badge

Movepool: Fantastic

Comments: This pokemon, while commonly dismissed, is the single best toolbox pokemon. Even with slow speed, Sudowoodo redeems itself over and over again with a moveset of Rock Tomb, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Sucker Punch, and Counter. What truly makes this the ultimate go-to is its fantastic Sturdy ability. Provided it doesn't get damaged with entry hazards (which rarely occur in Reborn), Bullet Seed, or face Mold Breaker, it guarantees to get at least 1 attack off, usually 2 with Sucker Punch. Rock Tomb allows you to drop your opponent down a speed tier, giving the rest of your team some relief. Counter gives you immediate destruction against any super effective physical attacker (looking at you Garchomp). Stone Edge is a stronger attack, but is single target and has worse accuracy than Rock Slide, so it's personal preference which one you use as your main STAB. Equip a Hard Stone, and the damage output of Sudowoodo goes even higher.

Shroomish-Breloom: B+

Availability: 2

Movepool: Fantastic (with breeding), Pretty Good (without breeding)

Comments: Breloom sits at an awkward 70 base speed, requiring investment in Jolly nature and Speed EVs to make up for its frailness. Provided you take the time to breed as well, Breloom has access to the devestating combination of Spore and Focus Punch. If not, then Technician boosted Force Palm does well enough. Mach Punch becomes a base 60 power priority STAB, meaning it's able to KO or severely dent things weak to fighting. Seed Bomb gives a solid physical Grass STAB, also enabling Breloom to hit SE on 7 types. Unfortunately it's weak to 6 common types, so be prepared for this thing to kill or be killed.

[dondon151]

Now as far as the actual rankings go, there are numerous problems. I disagree with the placements of many of the starters. I made a list awhile ago (http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14387entry331350) and I think that the list in this thread vastly overrates water-type starters while underrating grass-type starters.

The water-type starters are hampered by having terrible match-ups in the first two gyms and a consistent bad match-up in Fern, whom the player has to fight throughout the game. Many of the grass-type starters meanwhile have easy setup tools that are unrivaled except by the likes of Blaziken, who is the downright best setup sweeper in the game.

Speaking of Blaziken, I don't think that there is another Pokemon that deserves to share a tier with him - that's how good he is. Certainly not Infernape, who doesn't have a viable setup option and doesn't hit nearly as hard. Certainly not Azumarill, who hits hard but is too slow to sweep without blowing at least 2 turns on using X Speed. Maybe Diggersby deserves to share S tier with Blaziken because Diggersby is ridiculously powerful, but while Diggersby is unmatched in power, he doesn't have an easy win button against as many match-ups as Blaziken does.

Diggersby's power has nothing to do with Bounce (Bounce, I submit, is not worth the moveslot on Diggersby). The set that I run on Diggersby is Strength, Earthquake, Swords Dance, Flail. Flail is the outstanding move on the set because in Reborn, it's very possible to manipulate Diggersby's HP to have high-powered Flail readily available using Sticky Barb and Revives. A 150 BP or 200 BP STAB Flail off one of the highest atk stats in the game plows through teams. If Diggersby can't comfortably use Flail to sweep, then it can battle conventionally with Swords Dance setup into a combination of Strength and Earthquake.

There is another Pokemon with the combination of huge atk stat with STAB inverting BP move (which I think is missing from the list): Meditite.

Edited November 10, 2015 by dondon151

[Heliosan]

Let me submit a few:

Turtwig - Grotle - Torterra: B+

Availability- either a starter (0 badges) or available once you get to Agate Circus (post Luna) solid choice for a starter that isn't totally OP

Typing- Grass/Ground: decent, but has a lot of weaknesses

Stats: High Attack (109), High Defense (105), solid Health (95) and Special Defense (85)

Movepool- EQ via level-up, as well as Curse to set up and deal massive damage. Razor Leaf is the suggested Grass STAB move until Wood Hammer, as it is physical and it hits both targets in doubles. Synthesis is there if you are cheep and don't feel like buying potions. Breeding can be done to grab Rock moves for coverage. Crunch is there for coverage on Shade and Radomus. Leech Seed can be used for immortality. You can also breed Amnesia (via Snorlax, so post-Samson) to patch up the weaker special defense. Body Slam (breed from Chikorita or Tropius) can be run to paralyze your foes.

Major Battles viability: Torterra can set up for days on most Physical attackers and then hit back with strong boosted STAB attacks. Quick Claw Curse is a clutch strategy that can used to decimate entire gym leaders single-handedly. Chances are that if Torterra begins to set up, the AI will have a tough time taking it down. It is unfortunately weak to certain special attackers, such as Arceus, PULSE Abra, and Muk/Swallot, so it will not be particularly useful there. It can, however, solo the Giant Steelix and most of Samson and Kiki's teams go down to it with ease.

I think Torterra definitely makes a good case for B+ given the reasons that you stated. I will be discussing this with LordWallace later today and I think so far in my 2nd play-through where I chose Turtwig, it's been doing work, so I think with a few more feedback from others, Torterra imo could move up to B+.

I'll rank something when I get home, but I'll just suggest you have a mod delete some posts (after putting their rankings up, of course) and then adding some new posts for more space in case you run out.

Anyway, just wondering, are we ranking pre-evolution too? There are a couple of them up already, but I dunno.

Awesome! Hope to hear from you soon in terms of what rankings should be added / changed.

As for the pre-evolution ranking, LordWallace and I basically ranked the S and A tier Pokemon with full-on analysis while listing the others in the B and lower ranks so that it would provide a placeholder for community feedback and discussion. When each of the Pokemon have their analysis fully-written, it will be about the whole evolutionary family because that's part of what defines a Pokemon.

Just PM me or any of the Global Mods if you need to delete posts (including this one). I'll probably pin this once more information is put up. Hopefully this doesn't die out like the other ones.

EDIT: Or you can make a discussion thread so I can move the posts here to there.

Thanks ~Derpy Simon! I think the best course of action would be to have a separate discussion thread while keeping this as the main post for the tier list that will be modified accordingly. I'll make the discussion thread later tonight (EST) if that's okay with you?

I know this is still under construction but I see you listed Charmander under B-. Since all your other evos listed the full evo tree am I correct in assuming that Charizard is then also listed as a B-? If so I would like to know where he falls short?

He has good stats and decent movepool where he mainly lacks strong flying moves. He makes the early game so easy with dragon rage as charmander). I understand that with his typing he gets a x4 wekaness to rock and he also doesn't get move coverage to take out pokemon who are SE against him like water, electric and rock. With the flying he does become immune to ground types. Although he is also only available as a starter.

If I would to say, his weakness is that flying moves don't cover anything his fire moves already do other than fighting so he has a lot of overlapping in that regard. Would just like to know your reasoning though as I considered him A or B+ at the worst.

Yes you are correct in assuming that Charizard is a B- Pokemon in this list.

The reasons as to why LordWallace and I felt that it should be ranked in B- is:

1. It doesn't compete very well against the many Fire types you have access to both in the starters and in the actual Reborn world itself. The Fire types listed above each have qualities that put it above Charmander in some way, if you want a more detailed break-down, just let me know.
2. Level-up movepool is pretty good early as you mentioned with Dragon Rage wrecking things, but later on Charizard just kinda gets walled by a lot of things and will insta-die to one Rock attack. No access to 1 turn Solarbeam (Ame, pls gives us Zard Y) or means to hit said weaknesses definitely hurts its viability compared to the other Fire types. Also, there were times when I tried switching a Flying type into a supposed incoming Earthquake and I get bopped by Stone Edge or something. Dunno how often that has happened to you, but Charizard certainly won't like that.
3. Availability only as a starter definitely hurts a little bit because you deny access to a lot of other stronger options.

If there's anything that you wanna dispute with the reasoning or other questions, feel free to state it.

duude, you are kinda missing the aron, teddirusa, and skorupi family. those guys are sick as well

In what ways are the Aron - Lairon - Aggron, Teddiursa - Ursaring, and Skorupi - Drapion families good? If you wanna nominate them for the tier list, then could you please put them in the format as stated above in the original post, particularly specific reasons as to why they deserve to be where they are? Thanks!

WHERS MAH TOGEKISS

I kind wasn't born with the gift of making reviews. It's really complicated to me t.t

But Togekiss is a very good mon! The super known Air Slash + Serene Grace and ExtremeSpeed priority + Aura Sphere who never miss AND Moonblast.

He's also a decent special tank, helped me so much with Luna.

Btw it's not good while Togepi - Togetic but after evolving it's a Monster Tank, seriously.

And his speed isn't too bad tho.

**I kind of can have exaggerated since Togekiss is my fav mon**

The main problems that I see right now with the Togepi-Togetic-Togekiss family is:

1. You really need to baby that Togepi and spend a lot of time preserving it so that it gains EXP and doesn't hate you for letting it faint.
2. Paraflinching Togekiss would be pretty good if we had access to Thunder Wave in EP15 which we don't. Extremespeed is kinda meh priority unless you really weaken the opponent's Pokemon simply because Togekiss doesn't have great physical Attack and E-speed is no longer STAB. Aura Sphere is a fantastic coverage move though. I don't think Togekiss gets Moonblast at all? You don't even get Dazzling Gleam cuz that TM doesn't exist.
3. Availability. You only get it as the Police Mystery egg event and that event alone already has a lot of other Pokemon that are better than Togekiss such as Haxorus, Azumarill, etc.

Togekiss definitely has some things going for it, but these reasons above makes it seem that Togekiss should be lower on the spectrum compared to others.

On a previous in-game tier list thread I advocated dividing the tier list by availability because that would yield more useful information. It's impossible to compare whether, for example, Kricketot or Heracross is better when Kricketot is only amazing for the very beginning of the game and Heracross isn't even obtainable until half of the game is complete.

If a player were to use this tier list as a reference to answer the question, "what are my best options to use right now?" a tier list in which every Pokemon is listed cannot answer that question.

It would also make more sense to rank starters and random egg Pokemon separately because choosing or receiving one excludes all of the others. The random egg Pokemon especially should be segregated because some are obtainable much later in the game and their tier status would be substantially different depending on when you receive them.

You do bring up a good point in regards dividing the tier list in terms of availability, but i think that a user can discern for themselves which Pokemon they have access to based off of the availability description (we always make a note whether this is a Pokemon you can only get via mystery egg or a starter being available later). The analysis for every Pokemon is required to catch every use case where a user happened to get that particular Pokemon and wants to see how it measures up.

And in terms of starters / mystery egg Pokemon being available later...if stuff is available much later in the game, are they still useful at that point compared to the much earlier point? That is something to consider with that.

Hope this answer your question.

Bonsly-Sudowoodo : A+

Availability: 1 badge

Movepool: Fantastic

Comments: This pokemon, while commonly dismissed, is the single best toolbox pokemon. Even with slow speed, Sudowoodo redeems itself over and over again with a moveset of Rock Tomb, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Sucker Punch, and Counter. What truly makes this the ultimate go-to is its fantastic Sturdy ability. Provided it doesn't get damaged with entry hazards (which rarely occur in Reborn), Bullet Seed, or face Mold Breaker, it guarantees to get at least 1 attack off, usually 2 with Sucker Punch. Rock Tomb allows you to drop your opponent down a speed tier, giving the rest of your team some relief. Counter gives you immediate destruction against any super effective physical attacker (looking at you Garchomp). Stone Edge is a stronger attack, but is single target and has worse accuracy than Rock Slide, so it's personal preference which one you use as your main STAB. Equip a Hard Stone, and the damage output of Sudowoodo goes even higher.

Shroomish-Breloom: B+

Availability: 2

Movepool: Fantastic (with breeding), Pretty Good (without breeding)

Comments: Breloom sits at an awkward 70 base speed, requiring investment in Jolly nature and Speed EVs to make up for its frailness. Provided you take the time to breed as well, Breloom has access to the devestating combination of Spore and Focus Punch. If not, then Technician boosted Force Palm does well enough. Mach Punch becomes a base 60 power priority STAB, meaning it's able to KO or severely dent things weak to fighting. Seed Bomb gives a solid physical Grass STAB, also enabling Breloom to hit SE on 7 types. Unfortunately it's weak to 6 common types, so be prepared for this thing to kill or be killed.

For Sudowoodo, I don't think it deserves A+ because a lot of what it is playing towards is relying on Sturdy, which isn't the most reliable ability unless you wanna keep spending money on Ultra Potions to preserve it. You are correct that it has a lot of tools to abuse Sturdy, but unfortunately it is mainly a one-time use and you also run the risk of gym leaders and other important battlers using their own potions to restore the damage done by Sudowoodo. I am not even sure if Sudowoodo would even be worthy of the B- rank to be honest because relying on Sturdy is not a quality of a Pokemon deserving of those ranks. The Geodude family in a way does the same things as Sudowoodo does but also brings Ground coverage.

For Breloom, it's already in B+ and I think you're correct in your points for rating it. I think going for Spore + Focus Punch is a little bit too inconvenient, but that option is available if one really really wants it. I don't think it will pay that much dividends because Breloom isn't the fastest / bulkiest Pokemon in the world, but B+ is a pretty fair ranking for it imo.

Now as far as the actual rankings go, there are numerous problems. I disagree with the placements of many of the starters. I made a list awhile ago (http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14387entry331350) and I think that the list in this thread vastly overrates water-type starters while underrating grass-type starters.

The water-type starters are hampered by having terrible match-ups in the first two gyms and a consistent bad match-up in Fern, whom the player has to fight throughout the game. Many of the grass-type starters meanwhile have easy setup tools that are unrivaled except by the likes of Blaziken, who is the downright best setup sweeper in the game.

Speaking of Blaziken, I don't think that there is another Pokemon that deserves to share a tier with him - that's how good he is. Certainly not Infernape, who doesn't have a viable setup option and doesn't hit nearly as hard. Certainly not Azumarill, who hits hard but is too slow to sweep without blowing at least 2 turns on using X Speed. Maybe Diggersby deserves to share S tier with Blaziken because Diggersby is ridiculously powerful, but while Diggersby is unmatched in power, he doesn't have an easy win button against as many match-ups as Blaziken does.

Diggersby's power has nothing to do with Bounce (Bounce, I submit, is not worth the moveslot on Diggersby). The set that I run on Diggersby is Strength, Earthquake, Swords Dance, Flail. Flail is the outstanding move on the set because in Reborn, it's very possible to manipulate Diggersby's HP to have high-powered Flail readily available using Sticky Barb and Revives. A 150 BP or 200 BP STAB Flail off one of the highest atk stats in the game plows through teams. If Diggersby can't comfortably use Flail to sweep, then it can battle conventionally with Swords Dance setup into a combination of Strength and Earthquake.

There is another Pokemon with the combination of huge atk stat with STAB inverting BP move (which I think is missing from the list): Meditite.

I have a feeling that you overrated the Grass type starters in a way because the Grass types you mentioned in that post struggle a lot more to get through the game compared to the Water types. You have access to a lot of good Grass types early (namely Budew, Lotad, etc.) while you don't have access to so many good Water types in the game because they are either axed (RIP Gyarados) or pretty hard to get (Azumarill and Starmie are mystery egg Pokemon, other Water types are available really late, and then there's the starters).

Serperior can't really abuse Contrary until you get Leaf Storm which is super late (not to mention only 5 times of uses). Venusaur would be a way better Pokemon if it had access to Sludge Bomb in EP15 and Giga Drain via natural level-up instead of breeding. Both of these also don't have access to other moves that expand their coverage options unless you really wanna breed / soft-reset for Hidden Power in Pokemon Reborn. Water overall hits more types better than Grass, so naturally Water is better than Grass in a bunch of ways. Hope this sums it up for you.

I actually was thinking of just making a "Blaziken" tier, but each of the options that are mentioned below fit the definition of the S-tier which is "These Pokemon are arguably the best in the game, being able to hold their own from the instant you get them, which is usually very early, to much later in the game. They never really lose their usefulness, and are the Pokemon you should be using if you want the smoothest and easiest play though.".

Infernape, Diggersby, and Azumarill can do all of those things and it's explained more in their individual analysis. I don't know about Flail to be honest for a coverage move on Diggersby while you trade away a means to hit Grass and Fighting types that otherwise will give you trouble.

Meditite...hmm, I heard that you could get it via the girl who lectures about Zen and afterwards it's only accessible in Route 2, but I actually haven't been able to get it. I assume you probably can't get it till after you battle Kiki which I wouldn't be surprised about. That aside, Medicham definitely hits very hard with Pure Power + High Jump Kick, but man that speed and sub-optimal bulk definitely hurts. Bulk Up would be a pretty nice move for it to have, but too bad it doesn't thanks to the TM not being available. That aside, I think it would be good if you do an analysis of Meditite using the format stated above to formalize where it should go on the list.

Thanks for the feedback so far, guys! :]

[LordWallace]

I went through the entire On the Hunt list and purposefully skipped Pokemon I had no clue about or I felt werent as obvious and needed testing rather than an arbitrary ranking such as Meditite. I could see it being a strong contender for A though.

I'm also considering moving down Infernape since it is substantially weaker than the others and can't really sweep like Blaziken or tank like Azumarill.

As for a list split based on availability, I dont think thats such a good idea, I feel like that would quickly devolve into making everything A Rank because it's boss for about 15 minutes.

Hell I put Kricketot in D (though you could make a case for C-) because after Florinia it is absolutely worthless, and it's not like it's unique in being able to flex on Julia and Florinia, pretty much every Fire starter does that and they stay useful for the rest of the game. So yeah in 40~ hour game like Reborn being good for an hour doesn't really cut it. Same applies to Sudowoodo which I can't imagine myself ever using over Rhyhorn (Mystery Egg) or Geodude.

We also won't take breeding into account very much unless a certain event mon can come with egg moves already because breeding takes a long ass time and isn't very efficient. We do, however, rank comparatively because unlike the main series games it's not efficient to pick up a bunch of junk ASAP in Reborn only to then lose a million times to Corey, Shade, and Charlotte before having to go back and pick up something worthwhile anyway. This is especially validated by the level caps.

EDIT: Also, try to avoid making suggestions that would make a Pokemon jump several ranks unless you're absolutely sure of your case or that we missed something, ex. suggesting moving Cyndaquil from C to A+

Edited November 10, 2015 by LordWallace

[Fumble]

I dunno about Cyndaquil, but I'm gonna rank Typhlosion for B/B+ solely because of Eruption. Cyndaquil doesn't get it till the 50s and can't relearn it, so it's not really all that great, besides maybe the niche Smokescreen...

Availability: 0 Badges or 8 Badges

Movepool: Okay

Comments: Typhlosion may not have the best movepool, but the only move you really need on this Gen 2 starter is Eruption, which you can relearn after Aya - spamming this powerful STAB Fire type move with full health and max SpA EVs will demolish most Trainers' Pokemon, such as Serra, Noel's slower Pokemon (as well as burn the Field), Radomus, and Charlotte, with bonus points to the last two for being Double battles, as Eruption hits both Pokemon. You can also use stranger things like Shadow Claw or Hidden Power, since Eruption has very valuable PP. It's not too great until it gets that coveted Fire type move, but once it does, it can put a dent in plenty of battles.

I may do Vivillon next~

also idk about Igglybuff being in Fail Rank due to it being the first Fairy type you can get, and also being able to have Misty Terrain or Perish Song as its Egg move

[Commander]

I'm going to have to go with Dondon on Venusaur being an A rank or preferably and A+ rank. So what if it doesn't get its best movesets. It's probably one of the best starter choices bar Blaziken, Greninja, and Infernape. Under the sun, Venusaur can outspeed anything and given it has early access to Leech Seed and sleep powder along with bulk and a good typing, Venusaur is good. It even evolves a little bit earlier and gains access to petal dance. If you run growth under the sun combined with Petal Dance, Venusaur could one shot almost anything. Even without Chlorophyll, Venusaur is still a very good pokemon. Heck, it's the thing I threw out at threats in hardcore testing.

I'd probably give Sudowoodo a B+ rank. Sure it's not the best possible rock type, but due to it's early availability and versatile movepool, it's definitely one worth keeping for a long time. Sucker Punch is a great move for almost any Pokemon and it's a great kill tactic to avoid hits. Sturdy is a great gimmick in Reborn and unlike Golem, Sudowoodo makes great use of it. Even competitively, I've used a counter type tactic and it can save your butt in some of the worst possible moments. Sudowoodo is prone to hazards, but most leaders don't bother using them. I think the only thing holding it back is that it takes a bit of skill to use as it has many different strategies that could be run.

Aggron...is another gimmicky Pokemon, but I'd say it's a B-/C+ type Pokemon depending on how you see it. It's outclassed, but it can to quite a bit with what it has. Sturdy Metal Burst is a fun gimmick to take down powerful Pokemon, but Aggron has a hard time setting up or launch many attacks. Automize/Rock Polish with Iron Head is pretty nice put relies a bit on luck. It's not a bad option for someone in need of a bulky steel type though I feel Forretress is slightly better.

Drapion...is kind of a mixed bag so C rank would be its best placement. It's not a bad Pokemon at all and can be quite good especially if it has Agility or Hone Claws. It's bulky enough that it can also be a Toxic Spikes setter and take use of that Black Sludge in a world with a lack of good items. Scolipede outclasses it due to being stronger and faster, but it's a fun Pokemon to use if you haven't used it before.

Ursurang for Hardcore is a C rank, but I'd have to give it a D rank due to when it evolves. Kiki pretty much just comes in and kills of any shooting chance it had. Ursurang is a good Pokemon, but it requires a bit of teamwork to use. Trick Room is where it shines because that Slash attack is really powerful and with the Toxic Orb coming into play, it would've been back in the game...but just about every fighting type can make better use of it. Not a bad Pokemon...just severely outclassed.

I'm not going to lie, I'd probably drop a lot of the Pokemon you have up high up like Diggersby and raise a lot of Pokemon lower ranked up a tier or two. The fact that you don't have Reuniclus in the A tier kind of surprises me given it's probably one of the best possible Psychic types (and the best Trick Room Pokemon). It's certainly way better than Gardevoir (another Pokemon I feel is a little bit too high up on the list). Gallade should be C rank if you don't count breeding. I would've ditched my own Gallade if I didn't breed Shadow Sneak on it due to how slow it is.

[AuthorReborn]

I will edit this post and suggest another few updated rankings later tonight.

Edit: PC stopped working, so scratch that. Mobile is pretty bad for typing thins out and I'll already be forced to writing out tons of things on it so we'll see if I ever get around to reviewing more.

[Heliosan]

I dunno about Cyndaquil, but I'm gonna rank Typhlosion for B/B+ solely because of Eruption. Cyndaquil doesn't get it till the 50s and can't relearn it, so it's not really all that great, besides maybe the niche Smokescreen...

Availability: 0 Badges or 8 Badges

Movepool: Okay

Comments: Typhlosion may not have the best movepool, but the only move you really need on this Gen 2 starter is Eruption, which you can relearn after Aya - spamming this powerful STAB Fire type move with full health and max SpA EVs will demolish most Trainers' Pokemon, such as Serra, Noel's slower Pokemon (as well as burn the Field), Radomus, and Charlotte, with bonus points to the last two for being Double battles, as Eruption hits both Pokemon. You can also use stranger things like Shadow Claw or Hidden Power, since Eruption has very valuable PP. It's not too great until it gets that coveted Fire type move, but once it does, it can put a dent in plenty of battles.

I may do Vivillon next~

also idk about Igglybuff being in Fail Rank due to it being the first Fairy type you can get, and also being able to have Misty Terrain or Perish Song as its Egg move

The biggest issue I see with Typhlosion is as you said, relying on Eruption as a primary spread fire attack. It also doesn't get that much access to moves that help beat things that would wall it. I haven't tried using an ability capsule on it, but if it can get Flash Fire, that's pretty nice. Then again, Chandelure and Arcanine both get that ability as well and offer somewhat different coverage while not relying on such a low PP move that is also contingent on you being 100% HP.

I'm going to have to go with Dondon on Venusaur being an A rank or preferably and A+ rank. So what if it doesn't get its best movesets. It's probably one of the best starter choices bar Blaziken, Greninja, and Infernape. Under the sun, Venusaur can outspeed anything and given it has early access to Leech Seed and sleep powder along with bulk and a good typing, Venusaur is good. It even evolves a little bit earlier and gains access to petal dance. If you run growth under the sun combined with Petal Dance, Venusaur could one shot almost anything. Even without Chlorophyll, Venusaur is still a very good pokemon. Heck, it's the thing I threw out at threats in hardcore testing.

I'd probably give Sudowoodo a B+ rank. Sure it's not the best possible rock type, but due to it's early availability and versatile movepool, it's definitely one worth keeping for a long time. Sucker Punch is a great move for almost any Pokemon and it's a great kill tactic to avoid hits. Sturdy is a great gimmick in Reborn and unlike Golem, Sudowoodo makes great use of it. Even competitively, I've used a counter type tactic and it can save your butt in some of the worst possible moments. Sudowoodo is prone to hazards, but most leaders don't bother using them. I think the only thing holding it back is that it takes a bit of skill to use as it has many different strategies that could be run.

Aggron...is another gimmicky Pokemon, but I'd say it's a B-/C+ type Pokemon depending on how you see it. It's outclassed, but it can to quite a bit with what it has. Sturdy Metal Burst is a fun gimmick to take down powerful Pokemon, but Aggron has a hard time setting up or launch many attacks. Automize/Rock Polish with Iron Head is pretty nice put relies a bit on luck. It's not a bad option for someone in need of a bulky steel type though I feel Forretress is slightly better.

Drapion...is kind of a mixed bag so C rank would be its best placement. It's not a bad Pokemon at all and can be quite good especially if it has Agility or Hone Claws. It's bulky enough that it can also be a Toxic Spikes setter and take use of that Black Sludge in a world with a lack of good items. Scolipede outclasses it due to being stronger and faster, but it's a fun Pokemon to use if you haven't used it before.

Ursurang for Hardcore is a C rank, but I'd have to give it a D rank due to when it evolves. Kiki pretty much just comes in and kills of any shooting chance it had. Ursurang is a good Pokemon, but it requires a bit of teamwork to use. Trick Room is where it shines because that Slash attack is really powerful and with the Toxic Orb coming into play, it would've been back in the game...but just about every fighting type can make better use of it. Not a bad Pokemon...just severely outclassed.

I'm not going to lie, I'd probably drop a lot of the Pokemon you have up high up like Diggersby and raise a lot of Pokemon lower ranked up a tier or two. The fact that you don't have Reuniclus in the A tier kind of surprises me given it's probably one of the best possible Psychic types (and the best Trick Room Pokemon). It's certainly way better than Gardevoir (another Pokemon I feel is a little bit too high up on the list). Gallade should be C rank if you don't count breeding. I would've ditched my own Gallade if I didn't breed Shadow Sneak on it due to how slow it is.

Why rate Venusaur so much when you can't get some of its best moves easily? Not to mention that you don't really get access to sun unless you get Vulpix as your Police Mystery egg. If you got the Vulpix at any time in the salon like it was in the past, sure I would definitely rate Venusaur a lot higher, probably to A / A+ as you said. However, since you don't in EP15, I don't see Venusaur really up there. Petal Dance is also not like Outrage because Outrage hits more things neutrally while Petal Dance is 2x or even 4x resisted by a lot of Pokemon and you are stuck and can't switch out if you use it. Sleep Powder and Leech Seed is fantastic utility which does give Venusaur a buff, but without access to some of its most important moves...I am just really not sold on Venusaur versus another Grass starter like Torterra who gets its STAB moves naturally and doesn't need Sun to be good.

Golem has access to Stealth Rock which gives it more utility than Sudowoodo, but even then, neither Sudowoodo or Golem are particularly amazing Pokemon in it of themselves. Non-STAB Sucker Punch is also not the most fantastic of moves and I don't think using a Study reliant Pokemon is a very skilled strategy because you literally just rely on the thing being at full HP and then using the gimmick that is Sturdy to possibly get a good attack off.

Aggron is probably in that range as you mentioned. I forget how many badges you need to get Aron, but it might have a niche. Could you please format your thoughts into the analysis format that is in the OP? That would be much appreciated!

Drapion. Yeah, I agree that it's probably a C rank Pokemon. Poison + Dark is a pretty odd type combo in terms of synergy and coverage, but Drapion definitely benefits that it is available decently early and is a pretty good Toxic Spikes option should you want that on your team.

Ursaring. I feel that if you use Guts Ursaring, then Facade should be your primary STAB move of choice which you get somewhat around the time you evolve Teddiursa to Ursaring. Kiki is definitely the worst matchup you could get for it, but afterwards I feel that it might be okay. I think C- or D+ might be an appropriate ranking for it? I am actually playing through the game again and I have a Teddiursa so I am gonna see for myself how well it does.

If you want to propose tier changes, then please use the format as noted in the original post! helps keep things organized and whatnot. Also, in terms of Reuniclus, I think it is a very solid Pokemon but its biggest issue is coverage options in its level-up movepool. Psychic + Shadow Ball + Trick Room + Calm Mind is pretty nice and probably my favorite set for Reuniclus in competitive singles, however without access to Shadow Ball, the set really gets hurt in terms of hitting things that resist Psychic (mainly Steel). You still hit well with the Psychic and bring utility to the team in Trick Room, but that darn TM switch from Shadow Ball to Shadow Claw really hurts a lot of special attackers that benefit from Shadow Ball such as Reuniclus.

[dondon151]

I have a feeling that you overrated the Grass type starters in a way because the Grass types you mentioned in that post struggle a lot more to get through the game compared to the Water types. You have access to a lot of good Grass types early (namely Budew, Lotad, etc.) while you don't have access to so many good Water types in the game because they are either axed (RIP Gyarados) or pretty hard to get (Azumarill and Starmie are mystery egg Pokemon, other Water types are available really late, and then there's the starters).

Serperior can't really abuse Contrary until you get Leaf Storm which is super late (not to mention only 5 times of uses). Venusaur would be a way better Pokemon if it had access to Sludge Bomb in EP15 and Giga Drain via natural level-up instead of breeding. Both of these also don't have access to other moves that expand their coverage options unless you really wanna breed / soft-reset for Hidden Power in Pokemon Reborn. Water overall hits more types better than Grass, so naturally Water is better than Grass in a bunch of ways. Hope this sums it up for you.

I don't think that I'm overrating the grass-type starters at all. The dearth of water-type Pokemon early in the game does not substantially raise the value of water-type starters. Nothing in this game demands that the player needs a water-type Pokemon. There is no section in this game thus far that is unbeatable without a water-type Pokemon fit for battle. Believing that you need a water-type Pokemon early in the game traps you in the line of thinking that will result in more difficult battles against Julia, Florinia, Fern, and PULSE Tangrowth. For the earlygame, having a water-type Pokemon is actually a net negative. You have to invest EXP in this Pokemon and it does very poorly in the boss battles during this section of the game.

You're neglecting the potential for the grass-type starters to trivialize any battle given a chance to set up. Bulbasaur has early Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, and fairly early Growth. Sleep, set up, sweep. Snivy has early Growth, Leech Seed, and a slightly later Coil. Seed, set up, sweep. Once it learns Leaf Storm, you can Ability Capsule it over to Contrary and murder things with Leaf Storm + Wring Out. PP is not really an issue because PP Ups exist and lategame battles give you so many free heals. Turtwig has early Curse and fairly early Leech Seed. Seed, set up, sweep.

The water-type starters suck, frankly. You have Mudkip, Piplup, and Totodile all in A tier above the grass-type starters. A salient piece of irony here is that the only water-type starter who can naturally setup sweep (Oshawott) is below these guys in B tier. None of the aforementioned 3 water-type starters have the potential to open up an opponent given the proper circumstance. Mudkip, Piplup, and Totodile are actually all rather bad Pokemon even outside of the context of this game. Mudkip does not learn a single physical STAB until L51 Earthquake. Piplup is slow and otherwise unremarkable. Totodile does not learn a single physical STAB until L63 Aqua Tail (which is not boosted by Sheer Force). Meanwhile, these guys are all sitting above Oshawott, who learns a 75 BP physical STAB at L17 and picks up Fury Cutter and Swords Dance naturally.

You're fixating too much on how good Pokemon are in theory and neglecting how good they are in practice. Yes, water is a better offensive type than grass. No, this does not mean that water is a better type overall than grass at all stages of the game in Reborn. Nor does this theoretical advantage nullify the individual Pokemon's characteristics to do whatever it is that they do. The grass-type starters don't care that their type coverage is bad because an untouchable Pokemon at +6 doesn't really care if all of its moves are resisted - it's still going to plow through opponents anyway.

I actually was thinking of just making a "Blaziken" tier, but each of the options that are mentioned below fit the definition of the S-tier which is "These Pokemon are arguably the best in the game, being able to hold their own from the instant you get them, which is usually very early, to much later in the game. They never really lose their usefulness, and are the Pokemon you should be using if you want the smoothest and easiest play though.".

Infernape, Diggersby, and Azumarill can do all of those things and it's explained more in their individual analysis. I don't know about Flail to be honest for a coverage move on Diggersby while you trade away a means to hit Grass and Fighting types that otherwise will give you trouble.

Infernape cannot do this. Infernape's STABs of choice do not OHKO all of its targets (I know that this is true because a stronger HJK from Blaziken will not OHKO everything) and either lower its defenses or causes recoil damage. All that Infernape can do is to look for a good match-up, win, and then get out. Conversely, Blaziken and Diggersby can for sure win even mediocre match-ups, and the moment that they find a mediocre match-up, the rest of the opponent's team gets opened up. I can't say this with confidence about Azumarill because I've never used it, but I doubt that it's capable of this despite its bulk because of how slow it is.

Flail is by far the best coverage move to run in Diggersby's fourth slot. Here's an example from my speedrun route that demonstrates its power:

Context: Lapis Ward gym

Interact with the bottom right panel.

Move Diggersby to the first party slot.

Go over to the top half of the gym and hang right at first.

Techie Charlie

- Flail (10.4% HP) sweep Beautifly L31, Anorith L31

Diggersby grows to L32.

Give Diggersby a Persim Berry if it’s not already holding one.

If you do, also give Blaziken a Persim Berry.

Lady Lily

- Flail (10.4% HP) sweep Whirlipede L31, Swadloon L31

Diggersby grows to L33.

Interact with the top 2nd panel (from left).

Return to the bottom half of the gym.

Techie Eugene

- Flail (10.4% HP) sweep Burmy L29, Wormadam-G L30, Mothim L30

Diggersby grows to L34.

Bounce does not offer appreciable coverage. A super-effective Bounce is only 13% more powerful than a neutral Earthquake or 100 BP Flail. If Diggersby is holding a Soft Sand or Silk Scarf, his neutral STABs are actually more powerful than a super-effective Bounce. Bounce only gives Diggersby coverage against levitating or flying ghost-types, of which there are only 3 lines in the game. In those cases, just switch out. It's not worth running Bounce.

Meditite...hmm, I heard that you could get it via the girl who lectures about Zen and afterwards it's only accessible in Route 2, but I actually haven't been able to get it. I assume you probably can't get it till after you battle Kiki which I wouldn't be surprised about. That aside, Medicham definitely hits very hard with Pure Power + High Jump Kick, but man that speed and sub-optimal bulk definitely hurts. Bulk Up would be a pretty nice move for it to have, but too bad it doesn't thanks to the TM not being available. That aside, I think it would be good if you do an analysis of Meditite using the format stated above to formalize where it should go on the list.

If you require everyone to do a "formal analysis" before you consider their opinion, then you'll miss out on a lot of good opinions. I'm not going to bother. Guess who's slower than Medicham? Diggersby. Diggersby is also not that much bulkier. Medicham has higher atk and a much more powerful STAB. It also has better coverage options and same Flail/Reversal gimmick that Diggersby boasts.

As for a list split based on availability, I dont think thats such a good idea, I feel like that would quickly devolve into making everything A Rank because it's boss for about 15 minutes.

I disagree. Very few Pokemon are really good for a short amount of time after they are available and then really bad.

There are several advantages to splitting the tier list based on availability. The first is that the Pokemon become easier to rank when there are fewer relative comparisons to keep in mind. The second is that Pokemon that have availability at two separate points in the game can be reasonably tiered without cluttering up the tier list. The third is that Pokemon become easier to find for someone who wants to look at the tier list (actually, the list will look better when it doesn't try to accommodate upwards of 100 different evolution lines at once). The fourth is that the tier list becomes more useful to any given player who wonders at any given time which Pokemon to add to his team. The fifth is that availability doesn't become a defining factor of Pokemon ranking in the tier list, eclipsing a Pokemon's other innate characteristics. The sixth is that discussion can be organized better with this sort of breakdown. We're already talking about 8 different Pokemon at once and it's hard to stay focused this way.

You don't have to worry about too many Pokemon being advocated for a tier placement higher than they deserve - this happens often enough already. Most posts in this kind of thread will recommend moving up a mid- or low-tier Pokemon because that player had a positive personal experience with that Pokemon regardless of how good it is objectively.

Many people agree with my proposition and I think that it'll yield a better result in the long-term.

Edited November 11, 2015 by dondon151

[Dragon116]

I can understand your view on Sudowoodo, but I have looked at your list and you gave Hariyama an A+ ranking. I love Hariyama, but it is slow and tends to get killed by specialists. You also give Magnezone an A+, even though it relies on Sturdy and suffers from a 4x weakness to common ground attacks, and weakness to fire and fighting, and is slow. These two are examples of gimmicky pokemon that you gave A+ ranks to, and I feel if they deserve it, Sudowoodo should be included as well.

I would also boost Scrafty to A+ or even S (comperable to Blaziken, just slower but better typing and bulk), as all you need are Dragon Dance for a 1 turn set up, after which you spam HJK or Crunch as the need may be.

Espurr-Meowstic: C

Availability: 0 badges

Movepool: OK

Comments: Espurr is a great help against Julia, and evolved Meowstic gives you an early game stat boost for Florina and possibly PULSE Tangrowth. Unfortunately, most of the benefits stop there. As we approach and get past Corey, Meowstic's damage output just can't keep up, whether it's Competitive Female Meowstic or Prankster Male Meowstic. Prankster Meowstic is definitely worth keeping on rotation, however, as priority walls can be put into your team anytime it's needed, and it dies quick enough that your team maintains momentum and reaps the full use of 7 turns of a wall. Competitive Female Meowstic ends up getting abandoned when it's 76/76/81 bulk is unable to survive.

[Personthing]

Cyndaquil/Quilava/Typhlosion:

Since my reasoning was long, I'll put it in a spoiler.

Where I'd rank it: B or B+

Availability: 0 or 8 badges.

Movepool: Decent.

Reason why: I'll start out with the cons and then move to why I think it's good. The Cyndaquil line struggles early on to stand out compared to the other fire starters. It lacks the broken ability and strength of the Torchic line, doesn't get Dragon Rage like the Charmander line does, doesn't have Fire/Fighting like Torchic/Chimchar/Tepig, and Fennekin has a better movepool then it and gets Fire/Psychic typing. All Cyndaquil gets in comparison is a very early Smokescreen, Flame Wheel, Nature Power (from Florinia) and quite importantly Flash Fire. However, while the Cyndaquil line doesn't stand out compared to the other fire starters, it doesn't struggle either and you can get Fire Pledge in the Lapis Ward (If this is Hardcore mode only, then I goofed) to get rid of the period of time the Cyndaquil line is kinda bad. (From Shelly until it gets Lava Plume) However, despite these issues, once Typhlosion gets Eruption from the move tutor, the only Fire Starters that are more useful from that point forward are Blaziken and Infernape. Typhlosion's only real niche in competitive play is being the fastest Eruption user, and that niche rips a lot of Reborn's late game to shreds. Not only does Eruption have a base power of 150 when Typhlosion is at full HP, but it can also destroy field effects (like the icy mountain field effect), or turn field effects into the burning field (Forest, Grassy, and Super heated fields) which activate both Blaze and Flash Fire (Flash Fire is just better though) which allows it to OHKO even somewhat bulky Pokemon that resist Eruption. With Eruption Typhlosion can easily faceroll Serra (aside from her Lapras, and Eruption can't miss on her field effect hilariously enough), Noel (watch out for his Swellow though), Radomus (only Slowking is a problem, but Gardevoir can become one if it traces Flash Fire, and since it's doubles another Pokemon can attack the Pokemon Typhlosion won't OHKO like Reuniclus or Gardevoir since their both slow), Charlotte (especially with Flash Fire, as Charlotte won't be able to do much to Typhlosion and with burning field most of her Pokemon are OHKO'd, and since it's a double battle those who aren't won't survive the other Pokemon's attack), Blake (No Ice powering field effect for him and super effective), and the Blake + Fern fight, but that one is really easy. Eruption also takes a large chunk out of a lot Pokemon that resist it.

It also gets Hidden Power for coverage, which can come in handy if you get a good type for it like Grass or Electric.

For how it performs in different parts of the game:

Early game: C

Late game: A

Also no, Mudkip is C+ at best due to most of it's movepool being special until it gets Earthquake (I'm still a bit peeved that it was considered too strong for when you got the event one, seriously it's not), and Totodile is D+ at best because even though it gets Sheer Force, Crunch, and Ice Fang it doesn't get a physical STAB until level 63 and it's special attack is mediocre.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[LordWallace]

You can't seriously equate Sudowoodo to Magnezone because they get the same ability 0.0 Also how is Hariyama a gimmick Pokemon? It has great stats very early and stays useful throughout the entire game thanks to Knock Off, Heavy Slam, and Thick Fat. Seriously if a Pokemon isn't worth keeping for the entire game after it is obtained it probably isn't making B+, let alone A. That being said we'll take a look at it since I do think its too low considering what has now been said. Maybe C+ or B- is fitting.

Yeah Reuniclus is too low I agree, it should be at least equal to Gard since Gard got moved to later. And Gallade does need to be seperate and much lower than Gardevoir.

As for the Water starters, Gatr doesn't really miss physical STAB all that much in practice when SF Crunch and Ice Fang are so ridiculously strong. Maybe A- is still quite high though, same for Empoleon and Mudkip. I stand firm on Froakie though and the fact that in the long run the Grass starters are quite stagnant while the aforementioned Water starters are just catching their stride and they will continue to get better because they are just better in general. I mean yes the Water starters have it rough early but the Grass starters don't do that much better by your own examples and don't do nearly as well later. They still get smashed by PULSE Tangrowth, Corey, Shade, Aya, Serra, even Shelly gives them trouble. And later they get eviscerated by Blake, Charlotte and Ciel.

So yes the Water starters get beat up on early but it's not like Bulbasaur and Treecko are the early game juggernauts in comparison. Setting up does you no good if your STABs get resisted by everything, you're sorely overestimating how valuable their set up game is and set up in general. Few Pokemon actually pull it off efficiently and well enough and it's not as big of a factor in viability as you think. I'd rather have a Pokemon that's good overall and supports the team well over one that's only good given a chance to set up.

In conclusion I'll consider dropping some Water starters, Infernape, and Diggersby, but at this point I'm only considering Turtwig for a raise. And I'll also discuss the split tiers idea with Heliosan later.

Also if you read the OP I only want the format for Pokemon not yet ranked or without a description if you want to provide it. Feel free to express yourself about placing in general as you wish.

Ehhh Eruption just isnt reliable enough to make me want to raise the Cyndaquil family past C+. In an actual run with it I'd probably drop Typhlosion the minute Litwick showed up. And yes when I name a Pokemon on this list it's the entire evolutionary line. We can discuss a Charmander raise though since it's movepool does have some gems and Solar Power can be useful.

Commander and Dragon116 thank you for the contribution. I'll update the OP shortly

Edited November 11, 2015 by LordWallace

[Commander]

You're fixating too much on how good Pokemon are in theory and neglecting how good they are in practice. Yes, water is a better offensive type than grass. No, this does not mean that water is a better type overall than grass at all stages of the game in Reborn. Nor does this theoretical advantage nullify the individual Pokemon's characteristics to do whatever it is that they do. The grass-type starters don't care that their type coverage is bad because an untouchable Pokemon at +6 doesn't really care if all of its moves are resisted - it's still going to plow through opponents anyway.

After the whole Florinia Whimy fiasco, I can't tell you how true this is. Honestly, I don't really see any Water type other than Greninja being an A-tiered started because there's no point in picking them until they are available. Feraligatr? Don't bother because there's a D-dance one down the line and the access to Waterfall eclipse whatever small use it would've had before then. Squirtle? Mirror Coat is pretty much better than anything a starter squirtle would have. Mudkip? Well...I guess if you want to sweep Julia he's your man. Piplup I suppose would get poison immunity, but it has jack squat to damage Aya.

You're telling me these Water types are so good that when compared to the grass types, they outclass them. Let's just take an analysis of the grass starters. Bulbasaur is the fastest of all the starters on a sun team and access to both Leech Seed and Sleep Powder allowing for it to help settup Pokemon or settup itself. Chikorita gets screens and is quite tanky letting cannons set up and sweep. Treecko gets very early access to Giga Drain and Unburden can be used for sweeping with a bit of planning or the use of Oran berries. Turtwig gets very early access to Curse and Leech Seed pretty much making it a bulky sweeper who never has to worry about crits with Shell Armor. Snivy...requires a bit of babying, but Leaf Storm Contrary pays off down the line. The first four Pokemon mentioned all get some great move by 20s and water...has to wait until its fully evolved to even be somewhat useful. Grass also evolves earlier letting a couple of them even find use against Corey and Shelly...especially Venusaur.

I'm not saying the water starters are bad...but they are severely outclassed by their event counterparts to the point you may as well wait (kind of like Emboar). You can't really put Feraligatr on that list above Bulbusaur and Turtwig because those two start out good and remain good the entire game. Totodile also could be scrapped for better sheer force users like Darmanitan and Nidoking who get stab attacks to use with that ability. I could probably knock the water starters down to Bs and Cs except Greninja who is meh at first but when it gets moves, its ungodly good.

If you require everyone to do a "formal analysis" before you consider their opinion, then you'll miss out on a lot of good opinions. I'm not going to bother. Guess who's slower than Medicham? Diggersby. Diggersby is also not that much bulkier. Medicham has higher atk and a much more powerful STAB. It also has better coverage options and same Flail/Reversal gimmick that Diggersby boasts.

You know what else Medicham gets. Elemental Punches through the move relearner. I mean if you can Baton Pass a single speed boost to Medicham, it'll wreck stuff. You know who can do that? Girafarig. I prefer Hi-Jump Kick personally, but Medicham's speed and fear of Ghosts are the only thing holding it back from the A tier (it should be A- if you ask me). Diggersby suffers from the same problems though so they should be tiered tied imo.

I disagree. Very few Pokemon are really good for a short amount of time after they are available and then really bad.

Pokemon usability really is hard to rank. Picking 6 Pokemon from the A-tier may be a much weaker team compared to someone more skilled picking only from the D-tier. My personal tiering system is to get rid of S-rank and have a very shallow A-rank (aka Pokemon that would be good on almost any team), a pretty big B-rank, most will fall in C-rank, and the pokemon who just can't be used that well be D-rank, and maybe an F-rank. I'm not really into the whole rank stuff because I still generally believe in the use what you want system. Neither Reborn nor the hardcore mod punish people for using a favorite...unless its Dunsparce. I feel sorry for Dunsparce lovers. Anyways, that'll probably be the last you hear of me here. Good luck on this daunting task.

[Personthing]

Ehhh Eruption just isnt reliable enough to make me want to raise the Cyndaquil family past C+. In an actual run with it I'd probably drop Typhlosion the minute Litwick showed up. And yes when I name a Pokemon on this list it's the entire evolutionary line. We can discuss a Charmander raise though since it's movepool does have some gems and Solar Power can be useful.

I fail to see how Eruption is unreliable. Yes, Typhlosion has to be at full health to get the 150 power of Eruption (225 with STAB) but it's fast enough to outspeed nearly everything, and will OHKO a vast majority of the foes you encounter with it's base Special attack of 109. No other fire type aside from Blaziken can faceroll the late game better than Typhlosion can. Chandelure can't completely trivialize nearly half of the late game like Typhlosion can. It's the hardest hitting non-setup Fire Type in the game, not to mention it's ability to destroy 4 troublesome field effects, and even replacing some of them with the burning field, and that gives a full HP Eruption a ridiculous power of 375 (Flash Fire included) if I'm doing the math right. Typhlosion's only real strikes against it, is that without breeding it's best move set is Eruption, Flamethrower, Nature Power, and Hidden Power, and that it's early game performance is only acceptable, which is enough of a problem to push it to B tier instead of any higher.

As for the Water starters, Gatr doesn't really miss physical STAB all that much in practice when SF Crunch and Ice Fang are so ridiculously strong. Maybe A- is still quite high though, same for Empoleon and Mudkip. I stand firm on Froakie though and the fact that in the long run the Grass starters are quite stagnant while the aforementioned Water starters are just catching their stride and they will continue to get better because they are just better in general. I mean yes the Water starters have it rough early but the Grass starters don't do that much better by your own examples and don't do nearly as well later. They still get smashed by PULSE Tangrowth, Corey, Shade, Aya, Serra, even Shelly gives them trouble. And later they get eviscerated by Blake, Charlotte and Ciel.

So yes the Water starters get beat up on early but it's not like Bulbasaur and Treecko are the early game juggernauts in comparison. Setting up does you no good if your STABs get resisted by everything, you're sorely overestimating how valuable their set up game is and set up in general. Few Pokemon actually pull it off efficiently and well enough and it's not as big of a factor in viability as you think. I'd rather have a Pokemon that's good overall and supports the team well over one that's only good given a chance to set up.

In conclusion I'll consider dropping some Water starters, Infernape, and Diggersby, but at this point I'm only considering Turtwig for a raise. And I'll also discuss the split tiers idea with Heliosan later.

Also if you read the OP I only want the format for Pokemon not yet ranked or without a description if you want to provide it. Feel free to express yourself about placing in general as you wish.

Feraligatr does miss the physical STAB. Crunch and Ice Fang, even with Sheer Force just don't cut it. Mudkip doesn't get a physical STAB until level 51, which while better than Feraligatr having to wait until level 63, the only notable physical move it gets until then is Rock Slide. Froakie is definitely not A tier, as even with Protean the only useful moves it gets until Dark Pulse from Luna are Water Pulse and Extrasensory (at level 49). It's early game blows, and it doesn't get good for a long time.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[LordWallace]

I fail to see how Eruption is unreliable. Yes, Typhlosion has to be at full health to get the 150 power of Eruption (225 with STAB) but it's fast enough to outspeed nearly everything, and will OHKO a vast majority of the foes you encounter with it's base Special attack of 109. No other fire type aside from Blaziken can faceroll the late game better than Typhlosion can. Chandelure can't completely trivialize nearly half of the late game like Typhlosion can. It's the hardest hitting non-setup Fire Type in the game, not to mention it's ability to destroy 4 troublesome field effects, and even replacing some of them with the burning field, and that gives a full HP Eruption a ridiculous power of 375 if I'm doing the math right. Typhlosion's only real strikes against it, is that without breeding it's best move set is Eruption, Flamethrower, Nature Power, and Hidden Power, and that it's early game performance is only acceptable.

Feraligatr does miss the physical STAB. Crunch and Ice Fang, even with Sheer Force just don't cut it. Mudkip doesn't get a physical STAB until level 51, which while better than Feraligatr having to wait until level 63, the only notable physical move it gets until then is Rock Slide. Froakie is definitely not A tier, as even with Protean the only useful moves it gets until Dark Pulse from Luna are Water Pulse and Extrasensory (at level 49). It's early game blows, and it doesn't get good for a long time.

At 100 Base Speed you are not outspeeding everything unless you're just grinding to the level cap before every major fight and have a positive speed nature with good IVs. Typhlosion isn't Greninja, it's gonna be taking hits from some of the higher leveled opponents in the game before getting off that crucial Eruption. Granted Eruption is plenty strong and it has room in its moveset for that and another reliable Fire STAB, but that's really just a testament to how horrid it's movepool is. I'll probably get Heliosan to test Cyndaquil since I know he's starting another test run soon, but I'll take your word for it and move Cynda up to B since thats still plenty lower than the other Fire starters, and on second thought it's not nearly as bad as junk like Gothita and Munna though it's early game is probably the worst out of all the Fire starters and just about every other early Fire type that isn't Pansear.

I'll concede your points about Gatr and Mudkip, but I totally disagree about Froakie, Protean boosting normally non STAB moves like Round, priority STAB Shadow Sneak, and Smack Down in the early game is crucial and gives it plenty of power behind it's attacks, not to mention the defensive boons of Protean and that it gets a strong early special Water STAB in Water Pulse (though unfortunately it has to stick with that for a while). It starts decent and just gets better as the game progresses. I think it's fine in A.

EDIT: Tier list has been updated.

Changes:

S+ tier has been added to house the mighty chicken.

Diggersby: S ------> A+

Swampert: A+ -----> A-

Empoleon: A- ----> B+

Torterra: B -----> B+

Feraligatr: A- -----> B

Cyndaquil: C -----> B

Charmander: B- ---> B

Kricketot: D -----> C-

Aron: Unranked -----> B-

Skorupi: Unranked -----> C+

Descriptions for Turtwig and Shroomish have been added.

Edited November 11, 2015 by LordWallace

[Personthing]

At 100 Base Speed you are not outspeeding everything unless you're just grinding to the level cap before every major fight and have a positive speed nature with good IVs. Typhlosion isn't Greninja, it's gonna be taking hits from some of the higher leveled opponents in the game before getting off that crucial Eruption. Granted Eruption is plenty strong and it has room in its moveset for that and another reliable Fire STAB, but that's really just a testament to how horrid it's movepool is. I'll probably get Heliosan to test Cyndaquil since I know he's starting another test run soon, but I'll take your word for it and move Cynda up to B since thats still plenty lower than the other Fire starters, and on second thought it's not nearly as bad as junk like Gothita and Munna though it's early game is probably the worst out of all the Fire starters and just about every other early Fire type that isn't Pansear.

Oh a +Speed -any stat that isn't special attack (-attack makes the early game even worse on it though so Naive/Hasty are better early on IMO) nature is definitely the best nature Typhlosion can hope to have, it doesn't really care about the excess power any +special attack nature gives. The EVs you get just by KOing stuff are enough to make a difference in it's speed as well, and unless you're actively rotating you're team (Some people do this, I've never tried it) you should never have trouble being near the level cap at any late game gym leader fight without grinding. (I never grind.) Also, I really don't mean to come off as aggressive or condescending, so apologies if I come off that way.

I'll concede your points about Gatr and Mudkip, but I totally disagree about Froakie, Protean boosting normally non STAB moves like Round, priority STAB Shadow Sneak, and Smack Down in the early game is crucial and gives it plenty of power behind it's attacks, not to mention the defensive boons of Protean and that it gets a strong early special Water STAB in Water Pulse (though unfortunately it has to stick with that for a while). It starts decent and just gets better as the game progresses. I think it's fine in A.

My main issue with froakie is that while it does have the speed, special attack, and a decent attack stat it's moves lack the power needed to offset it's frailty for a long time and because of it's frailty the only water starter it really outdoes early on is Totodile. But I'll concede now.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[LordWallace]

Oh a +Speed -any stat that isn't special attack (-attack makes the early game even worse on it though so Naive/Hasty are better early on IMO) nature is definitely the best nature Typhlosion can hope to have, it doesn't really care about the excess power any +special attack nature gives. The EVs you get just by KOing stuff are enough to make a difference in it's speed as well, and unless you're actively rotating you're team (Some people do this, I've never tried it) you should never have trouble being near the level cap at any late game gym leader fight without grinding. (I never grind.) Also, I really don't mean to come off as aggressive or condescending, so apologies if I come off that way.

Not at all, I hope I don't sound that way either though I probably do lol.

Yeah I do that whole squad rotation to get them all around the same level thing. Major OCD.