[WIP] Pokemon Reborn In-Game Viability Ranking (Updated for Episode 15)

[dondon151]

If Blaziken is S+ tier then Diggersby should be S tier. There's no way that Infernape and Azumarill are S tier but Diggersby isn't. It's unambiguously the second best Pokemon in the game. I picked it to complement Blaziken in my speedrun route and there's no other Pokemon that can even hope to compare to it.

Your changes are a step in the right direction but still too conservative. Swampert is not an A tier Pokemon. Empoleon is not a B+ tier Pokemon. It is barely better than Blastoise (who, by the way, is too high in B- tier). Feraligatr is not a B tier Pokemon.

And since we're discussing basically only starters anyway, I don't understand why we're not dividing the tier list like I suggested.

I'll concede your points about Gatr and Mudkip, but I totally disagree about Froakie, Protean boosting normally non STAB moves like Round, priority STAB Shadow Sneak, and Smack Down in the early game is crucial and gives it plenty of power behind it's attacks, not to mention the defensive boons of Protean and that it gets a strong early special Water STAB in Water Pulse (though unfortunately it has to stick with that for a while). It starts decent and just gets better as the game progresses. I think it's fine in A.

Greninja doesn't get Shadow Sneak in the earlygame anyway. It either needs a Heart Scale (so it's not learning Shadow Sneak until ~L50) or it needs to be deleveled to L23 after evolution to learn Shadow Sneak. Why anyone would bother doing either to learn Shadow Sneak is beyond me.

Edited November 11, 2015 by dondon151

[LordWallace]

If Blaziken is S+ tier then Diggersby should be S tier. There's no way that Infernape and Azumarill are S tier but Diggersby isn't. It's unambiguously the second best Pokemon in the game. I picked it to complement Blaziken in my speedrun route and there's no other Pokemon that can even hope to compare to it.

Your changes are a step in the right direction but still too conservative. Swampert is not an A tier Pokemon. Empoleon is not a B+ tier Pokemon. It is barely better than Blastoise (who, by the way, is too high in B- tier). Feraligatr is not a B tier Pokemon.

And since we're discussing basically only starters anyway, I don't understand why we're not dividing the tier list like I suggested.

Greninja doesn't get Shadow Sneak in the earlygame anyway. It either needs a Heart Scale (so it's not learning Shadow Sneak until ~L50) or it needs to be deleveled to L23 after evolution to learn Shadow Sneak. Why anyone would bother doing either to learn Shadow Sneak is beyond me.

I must have confused it with Lick, which I guess is okay for paralyzing things. Empoleon and Blastoise are probably still too high I agree, I'll have to discuss this with Heliosan, but I'm still reluctant to drop Swampert and Gatr even further.

Our reasoning for Diggersby was that it's not that much better than Excadrill who you can also get pretty early and it's meh bulk and speed start to bite it later in the game, unlike Azu and Infernape respectively. Again though, I'll take all of this into consideration as I make the next set of changes and additions in a day or two.

EDIT: Whatever these were obvious anyway so I moved Empoleon to B and Blastoise to C, the less obvious changes will come later.

Edited November 11, 2015 by LordWallace

[dondon151]

Our reasoning for Diggersby was that it's not that much better than Excadrill who you can also get pretty early and it's meh bulk and speed start to bite it later in the game, unlike Azu and Infernape respectively. Again though, I'll take all of this into consideration as I make the next set of changes and additions in a day or two.

Excadrill being available shouldn't make Diggersby worse when the only way to obtain Excadrill at all in E15 is a 1/18 chance of a randomly determined egg. Even then, Diggersby is basically good to go once Bunnelby is captured (Rare Candy to evolve, knows Take Down at base) whereas Drilbur has to be hatched and then babied from L1. Diggersby is overall better than Excadrill anyway because it hits harder and it has the Flail gimmick that Excadrill lacks.

[Heliosan]

Excadrill being available shouldn't make Diggersby worse when the only way to obtain Excadrill at all in E15 is a 1/18 chance of a randomly determined egg. Even then, Diggersby is basically good to go once Bunnelby is captured (Rare Candy to evolve, knows Take Down at base) whereas Drilbur has to be hatched and then babied from L1. Diggersby is overall better than Excadrill anyway because it hits harder and it has the Flail gimmick that Excadrill lacks.

Again, this is yet another reason to separate the tier list based on availability. As if you needed any more arguments, right?

Excadrill learns Earthquake at a much earlier level (33 as a Drilbur which isn't much farther from 31 when it evolves) than Diggersby (57) not to mention Mold Breaker is so useful when there are so many annoying Levitate and Sturdy Pokemon in the game. Steel / Ground is also better typing that Normal / Ground and in my experience, I found Excadrill to be better than Diggersby actually. Excadrill was able to start winning the double battles early on and was a huge part of my 35 hour finish of Pokemon Reborn. Diggersby was honestly just weight on the team and it didn't really live up to the hype in my personal experience. I really found Take Down to be a pretty lackluster move because of the recoil and the miss which is quite annoying. By the time I got Strength, Excadrill was already way stronger than Diggersby. Not to mention Excadrill has access to Rock Slide to hit Flying types (add the Rock Slide flinch factor which is definitely better than relying on Diggersby to survive and get off a Flail).

[Dragon116]

I still haven't given up on convincing you about Sudowoodo. Let me try again. During my most recent replay of Reborn (hardcore version, no less), I picked up a Bonsly, evolved it into Sudowoodo, thinking it would be on my team for a badge or two until more Gen 2 were available. What I didn't expect was for this thing to be the definition of A rank "These Pokemon are almost always useful, but are held back from the S-tier for one reason or another. They usually have good stats, decent availability, good movepool and can usually handle themselves in battles." You can't get more useful than a toolbox, and a Sturdy one at that. Its inability to stay on the field for long periods of time is what hinders it from S Rank (If Camerupt can be A- with this problem, Sudowoodo can be too). Sudowoodo has 100 base Atk, 115 base defence, which is quite good on any pokemon. It does lack speed, but makes up for it with bulk, Sturdy, and Sucker Punch. It's available at 1 badge, which is fantastic. It has a perfect toolbox set, with access to a few other utility moves like Low Kick and Flail. I used that thing through Hardcore Reborn, and it is absolutely capable of handling itself. You can always find a use for Sudowoodo, be it foddermon (2 turns of healing) or toolbox.

Growlithe-Arcanine: B-

Availability: 2 Badges

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: This could be a B rank, but getting a Fire Stone is a pain. The only 100% Fire Stone availability isn't until after Shade, which is a tad late when Crunch is so helpful there. Arcanine is a neat mixed attacker with access to Flare Blitz, Heat Wave, Crunch, Extreme Speed, Outrage and Thunder Fang. You're better off running this Physical though, since Heat Wave is the only mentionable special attack in Arcanine's repertoire. 95 speed gives it a chance to outspeed a lot of foes, and 90/80/80 bulk gives it a good chance at surviving a hit, especially against a Physical attacker if you're running Intimidate. Flash Fire and Justified are also good abilities to run, but suffer niche uses. What really cripples Arcanine is access to better Fire types like Ninetails and Chandlure once you hit the halfway point, meaning it only sees use for 8 gyms.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Dragon116

[dondon151]

Excadrill learns Earthquake at a much earlier level (33 as a Drilbur which isn't much farther from 31 when it evolves) than Diggersby (57) not to mention Mold Breaker is so useful when there are so many annoying Levitate and Sturdy Pokemon in the game. Steel / Ground is also better typing that Normal / Ground and in my experience, I found Excadrill to be better than Diggersby actually. Excadrill was able to start winning the double battles early on and was a huge part of my 35 hour finish of Pokemon Reborn.

My in-game time after Charlotte the last time I revised the speedrun route was 5h 59m, so I think I've got your 35h completion beat there by a handy amount. This was using only Blaziken and Diggersby as fighting-fit Pokemon.

How does this supplement your idea of separating the tier list based on availability when there is a part of the analysis that TALKS about the Pokemon's availability? Separating this tier list into availability doesn't really make sense and it makes it quite convoluted. People can just read the "availability" portion of the analysis and then make the decision for themselves. Is it that hard to read and discern for yourself what you have available to you and what you don't?

Separating the tier list makes infinitely more sense from a practical perspective. The information is more readily accessible and useful to the reader. If a player is at a particular point in the game, he can do one of the following:

- Comb through the entire list of Pokemon, open the spoiler tag for every one, and check the Pokemon's availability against what he's looking for (the vast majority of these info spoilers are not written; where do I get a Chinchou? Who the hell knows, I have to open up a completely separate topic to find this information) - this is your suggestion

- Look up the desired list by availability, open the list, and peruse all of the Pokemon within (e.g., what are the best Pokemon before Shade?) - this is my suggestion

[Personthing]

May as well do shorter ranking after my long Typhlosion argument.

Pancham/Pangoro

Ranking: D

Availability: 1 badge

Abilities: Mold Breaker (Useless in game), Scrappy, and Iron Fist.

Movepool: Mediocre

Comments: Pangoro is slow, has ok bulk, and hits hard. On top of being slow, Pangoro's early movepool is horrid, and aside from body slam it's most notable move before getting Hammer Arm via move tutor is Crunch, which it gets at level 42... Pangoro has 3 abilities, and it can make good use of Scrappy early on, but as the game progresses Iron Fist becomes the better of it's abilities. Once it gets some decent moves, it's speed is still crippling, and weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, and Flying don't help it in the slightest. It has a pretty good offensive STAB typing though. Despite my bias for the thing (I used it for the whole game on my most recent run, and I had to break my rule of no EV training to make it's speed not such a crippling issue), I can fully say Pangoro blows and I do not recommend it for long term use. Outclassed by basically every fighting type.

My in-game time after Charlotte the last time I revised the speedrun route was 5h 59m, so I think I've got your 35h completion beat there by a handy amount. This was using only Blaziken and Diggersby as fighting-fit Pokemon.

Separating the tier list makes infinitely more sense from a practical perspective. The information is more readily accessible and useful to the reader. If a player is at a particular point in the game, he can do one of the following:

- Comb through the entire list of Pokemon, open the spoiler tag for every one, and check the Pokemon's availability against what he's looking for (the vast majority of these info spoilers are not written; where do I get a Chinchou? Who the hell knows, I have to open up a completely separate topic to find this information) - this is your suggestion

- Look up the proper list by availability, open the list, and peruse all of the Pokemon within (e.g., what are the best Pokemon before Shade?) - this is my suggestion

I take it you've never designed something for the purpose of user friendliness before.

I'm assuming if the tier list was separated the tier list, the Pokemon would still retain their rank on how the match up with the rest of the game, correct? I'm behind this. (The current format should also be kept as it's easier to just check and see where each Pokemon stands) And jeez, 5 hours and 59 minutes? I can't even fathom going through Reborn fast enough to get that time.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Heliosan]

I still haven't given up on convincing you about Sudowoodo. Let me try again. During my most recent replay of Reborn (hardcore version, no less), I picked up a Bonsly, evolved it into Sudowoodo, thinking it would be on my team for a badge or two until more Gen 2 were available. What I didn't expect was for this thing to be the definition of A rank "These Pokemon are almost always useful, but are held back from the S-tier for one reason or another. They usually have good stats, decent availability, good movepool and can usually handle themselves in battles." You can't get more useful than a toolbox, and a Sturdy one at that. Its inability to stay on the field for long periods of time is what hinders it from S Rank (although arguably I would concede this might make it a B+ rank). Sudowoodo has 100 base Atk, 115 base defence, which is quite good on any pokemon. It does lack speed, but makes up for it with bulk, Sturdy, and Sucker Punch. It's available at 1 badge, which is fantastic. It has a perfect toolbox set, with access to a few other utility moves like Low Kick and Flail. I used that thing through Hardcore Reborn, and it is absolutely capable of handling itself. You can always find a use for Sudowoodo, be it foddermon (2 turns of healing) or toolbox.

Growlithe-Arcanine: B-
Availability: 2 Badges
Movepool: Pretty Good
Comments: This could be a B rank, but getting a Fire Stone is a pain. The only 100% Fire Stone availability isn't until after Shade, which is a tad late when Crunch is so helpful there. Arcanine is a neat mixed attacker with access to Flare Blitz, Heat Wave, Crunch, Extreme Speed, Outrage and Thunder Fang. You're better off running this Physical though, since Heat Wave is the only mentionable special attack in Arcanine's repertoire. 95 speed gives it a chance to outspeed a lot of foes, and 90/80/80 bulk gives it a good chance at surviving a hit, especially against a Physical attacker if you're running Intimidate. Flash Fire and Justified are also good abilities to run, but suffer niche uses. What really cripples Arcanine is access to better Fire types like Ninetails and Chandlure once you hit the halfway point, meaning it only sees use for 8 gyms.

I don't think Sudowoodo's HP, Special Defense, or Speed really make it have overall good stats per se. I think Sudowoodo also relies on a lot of allies to take hits to allow you to restore it to full HP to abuse Sturdy again. The only points that I agree with you is the availability and it gets the moves it needs to abuse the Sturdy. However, the fact that you are so reliant on Sturdy and you absolutely need to be at full HP to abuse it again is just...really disappointing. I think C+ is probably the highest it deserves to be because of those qualities. Stealth Rock arguably has more utility than a lot of what Sudowoodo offers in terms of Sturdy.

As for Arcanine, you also could get Close Combat by soft-resetting for that egg move which is honestly worth it considering it really improves its coverage options. And I don't think anyone can get Ninetales outside of the Police Mystery Egg event which imo doesn't affect Arcanine too much unless you're lucky enough to get Ninetales in the egg. Chandelure definitely competes with Arcanine which I do agree with. Physical Arcanine is definitely the better option based on the available moves and I think B- is a pretty fitting rank for it.

My in-game time after Charlotte the last time I revised the speedrun route was 5h 59m, so I think I've got your 35h completion beat there by a handy amount. This was using only Blaziken and Diggersby as fighting-fit Pokemon.


Separating the tier list makes infinitely more sense from a practical perspective. The information is more readily accessible and useful to the reader. If a player is at a particular point in the game, he can do one of the following:

- Comb through the entire list of Pokemon, open the spoiler tag for every one, and check the Pokemon's availability against what he's looking for (the vast majority of these info spoilers are not written) - this is your suggestion
- Look up the proper list by availability, open the list, and peruse all of the Pokemon within - this is my suggestion

I take it you've never designed something for the purpose of user friendliness before.

How are you supposed to get through all the dialogue within 6 hours without FPS exploits or something? That doesn't make any sense and I am honestly quite skeptical that you completed up to Charlotte at 6 hours. And just a note, I didn't even try to blaze through the game in a speed run style and I just happened to finish in 35 hours. I like how you decided to take this opportunity to try to assert your ego.

The idea with the "Availability" portion of the analysis is that it assumes that IF you happened to get that particular Pokemon, this is where it stands. If you don't even get that Pokemon (ex. already committed to a starter for that save file, just got the Mystery egg), then you don't really need to waste your time the analysis fully. Is that so hard? I also think you're exaggerating that people are gonna open every single spoiler tag when honestly, people probably will want to know what is inherently good and then will see if it is available.

I would say that ranking the Pokemon based on viability and then having availability as a note disclaimer if you call it to provide additional feedback to the user adheres more to a user's mental model than having the Pokemon listed by availability and viability. If people are coming to read a tier-list, they wanna see what is good or fits a role that they need on a team. Then after if they see what is good or fits, then it only makes sense to see when it is available.

EDIT: If you really think the starter / mystery egg aspect is really that difficult to understand, then I don't think adding a note about the Mystery Egg and starter Pokemon at the top to help explain the availability portion of the analysis a bit better would be that tough to add. I don't think it warrants a completely overhauled means of ranking Pokemon.

May as well do shorter ranking after my long Typhlosion argument.

Pancham/Pangoro
Ranking: D
Availability: 1 badge
Abilities: Mold Breaker (Useless in game), Scrappy, and Iron Fist.
Movepool: Mediocre
Comments: Pangoro is slow, has ok bulk, and hits hard. On top of being slow, Pangoro's early movepool is horrid, and aside from body slam it's most notable move before getting Hammer Arm via move tutor is Crunch, which it gets at level 42... Pangoro has 3 abilities, and it can make good use of Scrappy early on, but as the game progresses Iron Fist becomes the better of it's abilities. Once it gets some decent moves, it's speed is still crippling, and weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, and Flying don't help it in the slightest. It has a pretty good offensive STAB typing though. Despite my bias for the thing (I used it for the whole game on my most recent run, and I had to break my rule of no EV training to make it's speed not such a crippling issue), I can fully say Pangoro blows and I do not recommend it for long term use. Outclassed by basically every fighting type.

Yeah, Pangoro is definitely a rung below Hariyama and Scrafty in terms of Fighting types that you have access to at that stage of the game. Heck, Primeape is probably a little bit better than Pangoro because at least Primeape can move decently quick. Thanks for the feedback! I think C- is probably where it belongs.


EDIT: And just a note, Diggersby is ranked at A+ not because Excadrill competes with it, but rather Diggersby is not much better than Excadrill.

[sound of silence]

No rank for Binacle and Barbaracle? Although its hard as hell to find, and needs heart scales before it becomes useful, I think Barbaracle could easily be b+ minimum. As the second earliest poke in reborn to get shell smash, it is an offensive juggernaut with a great natural movepool, complemented by its ability to learn nature power. Tough claws gives several of its attacks an extra power boost, and when combined with the incredible number of field bonuses, especially those that are physical contact moves, Barbaracle is insanely powerful. Has the capabilities to sweep Noel and Serra if you can get the shell smash boost off, while being incredibly useful for just about every gym by dint of swapping moves around, even for type disadvantages such as samson and terra.

It is slow without the smash boost, and will consume items required to get the sweep (anti-status berries, balloons, heart scales for move changing) but the incredible amount of power multipliers you can rack up with it, nature power access, and general usefulness throughout the game due to water type sweepers being even harder to find (See azumarril) or require a lot of time spent breeding (see crawdaunt), it is a water type well worth babying and searching for.

[Fumble]

Vivillon for C/C+/ B-

Availability: 2 Badges

Movepool: OK

Comments: Once Pokemon #666 gets to level 45, it learns Quiver Dance. Combine this with Sleep Powder (which has an almost perfect chance of hitting with Compound Eyes, and you can effectively sweep a whole lot of teams, utilizing Bug Buzz and Hurricane, which you get a little later. Vivillon also has some moves you may want to try out like Sunny Day/Rain Dance, Draining Kiss, and Aromatherapy. The only problem is that Vivillon gets the moves it needs pretty late, around the sixth Gym, and it has to be faster than the lead Pokemon. Luckily, this is the cause for Noel, Radomus (if he doesn't get a Trick Room up), Bennett, Luna, Samson, etc.

[dondon151]

If we tiered this from your perspective (not that its a bad one) alone and by the standard of efficiency that document sets, why tier anything except Blaziken and Diggersby (and the other handful of Pokemon briefly used)? Why have the list at all if this one route with these specific Pokemon can always produce the fastest time?

The problem with tiering choice viability in single-player games is that short of the speedrun options, all other options are sub-optimal. Ultimately, in-game time is not the best metric for comparing different Pokemon, because some Pokemon are very strong but are not the kind of set-up-for-2-turns-and-sweep Pokemon that Blaziken or Diggersby are (Clefable comes to mind). That's why you have to settle with some subjective metric of easiness or something, which I'm okay with.

I'm only presenting the route as evidence that Diggersby is S tier because it satisfies all of the criteria that you mentioned in your first post. It has the best availability among non-starter potential A/S tier Pokemon. Normal typing is somewhat bad, but because Diggersby hits so damn hard, it's actually a good thing that normal-type hits most targets neutral and ground-type covers most of the rest.

I am ambivalent about Diggersby being = or > Excadrill; if you were to move Diggersby up to S then I'm okay with Excadrill also moving up. I just don't think that placing Infernape above either Pokemon makes any sense. Infernape doesn't have a win button against most, or later in the game, any opponent.

Edited November 11, 2015 by dondon151

[Darvan Korematsu]

I'm gonna throw Toxicroak somewhere into this mix as a B to C+ Pokemon. It's available before the 3rd badge, can evolve somewhat early, and has a couple good qualities to it. Basically it has been my Fighting type of choice in the game since I had the chance to obtain it, for a couple of reasons.

The biggest reasons are its Ability Dry Skin and potential movepool. The biggest things holding back Toxicroak from being an A are it's meh Speed and frailty. However the Speed can be mitigated.

Dry Skin will be very useful in our obligated upcoming battle with Amaria, as well as it giving you leeway to Surf spam in Double battles and benefit from it because at badge 9 or 10 and onward, it will be necessary.

It may have a meh speed, but it can learn Sucker Punch naturally, and Vacuum Wave by egg move. It can also learn Nasty Plot naturally to help boost its Special Attack, and it gets a variety of moves to support this in Shadow Ball (pre-E15 Shade TM), Sludge Wave (Aya TM), and Vacuum Wave. Also it has a decent physical movepool for egg moves. Drain Punch for HP-recovery goodness, or the best Fighting move it can get in terms of power right now in Cross Chop.

My point being, if it weren't for it's frailty and okay speed, it'd be way better than it already is. Although it's Sucker Punch should be a reason enough for that. And that's my 2 cents on Croagunk/Toxicroak. A Pokemon yet to be seen on here.

[mattrexargon]

aron-lairon-aggron for B-

avaialbility: after strength (deep railnet)

movepool: good

Aggron often get underestimated due to its low sp defense and 4x to fight and ground, but this monster is actually very dangerous. With proper selection of Aggron's ability he can fit into many roles. If you patient enough you can teach head smash thru eggmove, that is recoil free and stab. Aggron is also an unstoppable tank for a lot of types, making even explosion feels nothing. But for me, the greatest point Aggron has is the way he is underestimated. Metal Burst/ Sturdy combo is satisfying, as Aggron would definitely go last and people would always think that they can kill Aggron in one hit. Metal burst itself is a superior counter due to is in dependency to the physical\special split.

[Simon]

Totally not a late response or anything.

You can do it whenever you're ready Wallace. I'll make sure to pay attention and actually be home when you do.

EDIT: After going through this thread finally, keep this conversation between you guys through PM only if necessary to continue this.

[Dragon116]

I don't think Sudowoodo's HP, Special Defense, or Speed really make it have overall good stats per se. I think Sudowoodo also relies on a lot of allies to take hits to allow you to restore it to full HP to abuse Sturdy again. The only points that I agree with you is the availability and it gets the moves it needs to abuse the Sturdy. However, the fact that you are so reliant on Sturdy and you absolutely need to be at full HP to abuse it again is just...really disappointing. I think C+ is probably the highest it deserves to be because of those qualities. Stealth Rock arguably has more utility than a lot of what Sudowoodo offers in terms of Sturdy.

I'll condede that 70 HP and 65 Sp.d aren't that great, but it's irrelevant. This pokemon only needs Sturdy to go against specialists. If you play it where you revive and restore it, while your other pokemon become foddermon, it's a weak strategy. That's not how you're supposed to play it though. Sudowoodo has good matchups thanks to its Rock typing, giving it's 115 def even more importance as resists Normal, Fire, Poison, and Flying (which are usually physical, and extremely common in Reborn). Rock STAB allows it to kill Fire, Ice, Flying, and Bug (the first 3 which plague the end game). What really sets it apart from other Sturdy users is Sucker Punch. Combined with 100 base attack, it can kill many matchups, while other Sturdy users can get off 1 attack (or T-Wave + 1 offensive for Magnezone and Probopass). The point isn't that Sudowoodo is the best Rock type, it's that Sudowoodo is the best toolbox. Speed drops, strong attacks, priority, physical counter. Most pokemon can only do two of these well. Sudowoodo does all these well.

Woobat-Swoobat: C+

Availability: 0 badges

Movepool: OK

Comments: Swoobat is available from the start of the game, thanks to access to woobat and the fact that it's friendship evolution and not impaired by level cap. 77 Sp.A is not that great, but it's the 114 speed that makes it irrelevant. Thanks to Simple, Swoobat can get off a +2 Sp.A and +2 Sp.D before anything else moves, turning its 55 base Sp.d into a sizable defense turn one. Provided you're facing a specialist, Swoobat can become a monster in 3 turns, sweeping the entire enemy team with ease (provided they're not immune/resistant to flying and psychic). Swoobat does have a lot of problems. First, 67 base HP and 55 base Def mean it's game over if a physical hit touches it. Second, Air Slash is the best special flying attack it has access to. These two factors limit where Swoobat can be used. What ultimately cripples it is the defensive typing of Flying and Psychic, leaving it vulnerable to 5 types that are prevalent throughout the game. At the same time, it's resistant/immune to early game horrors Fern and Victoria. However, given the right opportunity, this thing is nearly unstoppable.

[dondon151]

Swoobat is not C+ tier. It is one of the most potent set-up sweepers in the game.

It's faster than most Pokemon and it can set up against just about anything specially oriented. Swoobat's biggest weakness is that it tends to require set-up to deal with even shitty trainers, but this becomes less of a problem later in the game because you can just stick an Exp. Share on it and reserve it for the tough fights.

Edited November 11, 2015 by dondon151

[LordWallace]

Swoobat is not C+ tier. It is one of the most potent set-up sweepers in the game.

It's faster than most Pokemon and it can set up against just about anything specially oriented. Swoobat's biggest weakness is that it tends to require set-up to deal with even shitty trainers, but this becomes less of a problem later in the game because you can just stick an Exp. Share on it and reserve it for the tough fights.

What rank do you think is appropriate? Honestly Swoobat is one of those Pokemon I should have probably omitted from prelim rankings.

[Heliosan]

I can see Swoobat as a solid B ranked Pokemon. It definitely has fantastic speed and being able to setup those Calm Minds quick for abusing Simple is pretty good. Air Slash and Psychic are pretty decent STAB moves with the fun added factor of flinching your opponent with the former. It is available quite early at 0 badges and only requires happiness to evolve (don't let this thing faint). The biggest flaws that stop Swoobat from becoming an A tier Pokemon would have to be its typing both offensively and defensively. Steel types are going to wall Swoobat with its natural level-up pool and not to mention the Calm Mind boosts won't boost its frail physical defense. And as mentioned, Psychic + Flying isn't the best of defensive typing.

What do you guys think? B rank for Swoobat is pretty fair? I think Noibat also should probably be moved down a little bit considering it is quite a pain to raise and won't evolve until level 48.

LordWallace, you should link the highlights of your Pokemon Reborn playthrough to supplement the Noibat headache :]

[Dragon116]

Swoobat can be B rank. I personally feel it's too frail, but obviously it's general opinion here.

Sudowoodo for A-. C+ is an insult for such a fantastic toolbox.

You never updated the OP for B- Arcanine and C Meowstic. Pancham is still listed as B+ in the OP, when you already updated it as a C-

Litleo-Pyroar: B+

Availability: 1 badge

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Pyroar is not as good as Chandlure or Ninetails, and it gets walled against Rock types. Beyond that, Pyroar has the stats and movepool to support what it needs to do, although it struggles up to 38, when it gets Flamethrower. At 48 it gets the other needed STAB move Hyper Voice. Flamethrower and Hyper Voice allow Pyroar to remain on the field for longer periods of time. If you want a nuke, Overheat and Hyper Beam are available, although the last requires a Heart Scale. Pyroar is weak to Fighting and Ground, which are constant coverage types in Reborn. Without any coverage moves of it's own, Pyroar will be dependent on the rest of the team to manage those threats, which is what holds it back from A tier.

[CURIE]

Where would Feebas go? In a lot of ways it's like Piplup, a much needed good water type with really good stats, that's held back by a not as good movepool. It's slightly better than Piplup, having access to Surf the moment you get it and some neat support moves, but it has pretty much zero type coverage. It's a complete powerhouse with certain TM moves, but only one of those TMs are actually in the game (and it doesn't even work due to a bug). And unlike Piplup, it's ridiculously late game.

[dondon151]

I'd put Swoobat in A- tier, but I can also settle with B+. Steel-types resist it, but being blocked by certain opponents does not exclude a Pokemon from A tier. Blaziken and Diggersby are both walled by a handful of matchups and they are the two best Pokemon in the game. Swoobat cannot set up against steel-types (unless they are specially oriented), but at +6 it can still plow through some of them if it has set up beforehand.

Swoobat's evolution can also come very early in the game. A Friend Ball sets its happiness to 200, a haircut from the Central Salon adds 15, and 2 level ups or a Rare Candy will push it over to 220. The monetary investment is fairly small assuming that the player knows the location of earlygame hidden vitamins and wings.

On Noibat: I don't get why it's anything higher than D tier. It has trash tier stats until evolution at L48. As Noivern it's fairly fast but not particularly strong.

Also I'd just like to point out that having Espurr and Cottonee in the C tier is ridiculous. Espurr-F is maybe C tier, but Espurr-M and Cottonee are both A tier material, especially if Magnemite is also in A tier. They both require little to no investment to function and are basically the player's best tools to render any opponent Pokemon easy set-up bait.

Edited November 12, 2015 by dondon151

[AuthorReborn]

Just a friendly reminder to credit the in-depth descriptions of the mons and their rankings to those who wrote them. Other than that, I may add another mon review tomorrow.

[Heliosan]

Swoobat can be B rank. I personally feel it's too frail, but obviously it's general opinion here.

Sudowoodo for A-. C+ is an insult for such a fantastic toolbox.

You never updated the OP for B- Arcanine and C Meowstic. Pancham is still listed as B+ in the OP, when you already updated it as a C-

Litleo-Pyroar: B+

Availability: 1 badge

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Pyroar is not as good as Chandlure or Ninetails, and it gets walled against Rock types. Beyond that, Pyroar has the stats and movepool to support what it needs to do, although it struggles up to 38, when it gets Flamethrower. At 48 it gets the other needed STAB move Hyper Voice. Flamethrower and Hyper Voice allow Pyroar to remain on the field for longer periods of time. If you want a nuke, Overheat and Hyper Beam are available, although the last requires a Heart Scale. Pyroar is weak to Fighting and Ground, which are constant coverage types in Reborn. Without any coverage moves of it's own, Pyroar will be dependent on the rest of the team to manage those threats, which is what holds it back from A tier.

Yeah, I think B is a very fair rank for Swoobat. B+ would be pushing it a little bit, but I would say for now, B is a pretty good place for it.

Hmm, now I wanna try Sudowoodo for my new save file...

Pyroar definitely has a solid niche, but I think another factor that hurts it is that it really doesn't have a good ability. Rivalry works sometimes, but it's inconsistent. Unnerve...from what i remember, don't think there are that many use cases for it. Moxie is just meh because it doesn't really get that many good physical moves minus like...Crunch lol. B+ probably fits best for it.

Where would Feebas go? In a lot of ways it's like Piplup, a much needed good water type with really good stats, that's held back by a not as good movepool. It's slightly better than Piplup, having access to Surf the moment you get it and some neat support moves, but it has pretty much zero type coverage. It's a complete powerhouse with certain TM moves, but only one of those TMs are actually in the game (and it doesn't even work due to a bug). And unlike Piplup, it's ridiculously late game.

Empoleon has arguably better typing than Milotic because Steel is a very good defensive type. That being said, I think it would probably be around where Piplup is or even lower to be honest because of the reasons stated. Maybe it will be more useful in the future battles depending on what we get access to later, but we have to wait for Ame to finish those.

I'd put Swoobat in A- tier, but I can also settle with B+. Steel-types resist it, but being blocked by certain opponents does not exclude a Pokemon from A tier. Blaziken and Diggersby are both walled by a handful of matchups and they are the two best Pokemon in the game. Swoobat cannot set up against steel-types (unless they are specially oriented), but at +6 it can still plow through some of them if it has set up beforehand.

Swoobat's evolution can also come very early in the game. A Friend Ball sets its happiness to 200, a haircut from the Central Salon adds 15, and 2 level ups or a Rare Candy will push it over to 220. The monetary investment is fairly small assuming that the player knows the location of earlygame hidden vitamins and wings.

On Noibat: I don't get why it's anything higher than D tier. It has trash tier stats until evolution at L48. As Noivern it's fairly fast but not particularly strong.

Also I'd just like to point out that having Espurr and Cottonee in the C tier is ridiculous. Espurr-F is maybe C tier, but Espurr-M and Cottonee are both A tier material, especially if Magnemite is also in A tier. They both require little to no investment to function and are basically the player's best tools to render any opponent Pokemon easy set-up bait.

B+ imo is still kinda pushing Swoobat a little bit because you really have little physical bulk and its only means of recovery is you using a turn to heal it with an Ultra Potion or switching out to fodder something, but then in turn lose your boosts. Speed is also a really weird thing in Reborn tbh because it requires you to have a proper speed nature and possibly even EV training if you absolutely need to outspeed. If Swoobat gets outsped, it's not in for a good time. I am also not sure how many times you can get to +6 because usually setting up to +6 is not very efficient anyway due to the Law of Diminishing Returns when you boost the stats.

You are correct that Swoobat is available very early and it does a lot of work against the early gyms and key battles. Hence why I think it will probably end up in B+ despite said flaws from before.

Eh, Noivern is a pretty nice and fast Pokemon with good coverage options, but I think trying to raise it up to level 48 as you go definitely sucks. I think it's probably a C Pokemon because Noivern is not complete garbage and it does do some decent work in the early stages against Florinia and has good typing, it's just that grueling midgame where everything destroys it basically. It's kind of a U-curve in terms of potential if that makes sense imo.

Could you expand more on why you think Whimsicott and Meowstic-M should be moved up? Neither Pokemon have offensive presence, but they do have support. Just depends on what kind of support is actually good, hence why I wanna hear more of your reasoning as to why they should be A-rank.

Just a friendly reminder to credit the in-depth descriptions of the mons and their rankings to those who wrote them. Other than that, I may add another mon review tomorrow.

Ah yes, that will be implemented in the next iteration of edits. Thank you for the reminder!

And also, thanks everyone for contributing your thoughts thus far and helping the list develop.

[Hiroki Tatsumi]

Nevermind the thread, someone gave me wrong link x)

Edited November 12, 2015 by Hiroki Tatsumi

[dondon151]

B+ imo is still kinda pushing Swoobat a little bit because you really have little physical bulk and its only means of recovery is you using a turn to heal it with an Ultra Potion or switching out to fodder something, but then in turn lose your boosts. Speed is also a really weird thing in Reborn tbh because it requires you to have a proper speed nature and possibly even EV training if you absolutely need to outspeed. If Swoobat gets outsped, it's not in for a good time. I am also not sure how many times you can get to +6 because usually setting up to +6 is not very efficient anyway due to the Law of Diminishing Returns when you boost the stats.

There are diminishing returns in theory with getting to +6. However, if +6 is required for a particular sweep, then it should get +6. If Swoobat is matched up against a special attacker, then it should have little problem getting to +6, because at +4 it doesn't mind taking an extra turn of damage. Healing is also pretty cheap relative to your total funds later in the game.

Could you expand more on why you think Whimsicott and Meowstic-M should be moved up? Neither Pokemon have offensive presence, but they do have support. Just depends on what kind of support is actually good, hence why I wanna hear more of your reasoning as to why they should be A-rank.

Sure. They require little to no investment to stay relevant. Meowstic-M is basically good to go once it learns Reflect at L35, but really its most important moves are Light Screen and Fake Out, both of which it learns as Espurr (it also gets Charm at L28 which is functionally similar to Reflect). Cottonee learns Leech Seed and Stun Spore by L10. Neither Pokemon require any investment past that point to do what they need, although Cottonee does learn a ton of other useful supporting moves on level up.

The paradigm behind their support is that they are guaranteed to cripple the opponent's lead Pokemon, thereby allowing any setup sweeper to come in and get an easy setup. Theoretically, any single battle can be trivialized in this way. Double battles appear to be trickier, but I still think that this formula can be applied to great success. I'm planning to test this out when I revise my speedrun route.

Edited November 12, 2015 by dondon151