[WIP] Pokemon Reborn In-Game Viability Ranking (Updated for Episode 15)

[Dragon116]

I agree with Dondon about getting to +6. Even if the opponent has an SE move, Swoobat brushes it off pretty well at +4. The biggest flaw with Swoobat is that it HAS to match up against a specialist or it will die. This leaves it in a very shaky position when using it in your team. Swoobat struggles on Julia, Corey (Confusion is horrible), Shelly (She's prepared for Flying types), Shade (boosted TBolt), Yuyeru, Noel, Radomus (Both STABS are mediocre on him), Luna, Blake, and Ciel. That's half of all the major fights in the game. That's why I said it should be C+, but I'm willing to agree with a B ranking.

Alright I'll settle for B ranking of Sudowoodo, but I strongly recommend you try it out with the set I stated.

Shinx-Luxio-Luxray: B-

Availability: 1 Badge

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Luxray is most effective during the fight with Corey thanks to evolving at 30 and having Guts ability. It has fantastic 120 attack, but awkward 70 speed. Access to Crunch, Roar, Charge, and Scary Face offer Luxray some utility moves that help support it (Charge boosts Electric damage and Sp.D) or the team (Phaze, Speed drops). Luxray struggles to keep up with the desirable damage output throughout the game, which really hinders its appeal. However, it's only weak to Ground, and has good enough defenses to take hits from other types, as well as lower Physical attackers with Intimidate, or increase it's own stats with Rivalry (it's a gamble though). Luxray is definitely an option worth considering early game, but there are better Electric types available soon after.

[Heliosan]

There are diminishing returns in theory with getting to +6. However, if +6 is required for a particular sweep, then it should get +6. If Swoobat is matched up against a special attacker, then it should have little problem getting to +6, because at +4 it doesn't mind taking an extra turn of damage. Healing is also pretty cheap relative to your total funds later in the game.

Sure. They require little to no investment to stay relevant. Meowstic-M is basically good to go once it learns Reflect at L35, but really its most important moves are Light Screen and Fake Out, both of which it learns as Espurr (it also gets Charm at L28 which is functionally similar to Reflect). Cottonee learns Leech Seed and Stun Spore by L10. Neither Pokemon require any investment past that point to do what they need, although Cottonee does learn a ton of other useful supporting moves on level up.

The paradigm behind their support is that they are guaranteed to cripple the opponent's lead Pokemon, thereby allowing any setup sweeper to come in and get an easy setup. Theoretically, any single battle can be trivialized in this way. Double battles appear to be trickier, but I still think that this formula can be applied to great success. I'm planning to test this out when I revise my speedrun route.

Tis is true, if you're in a matchup against a special attacker that can't hit you too hard, then by all means I think that looks like a Swoobat sweep. I guess it really depends how well it performs in practice (hence why I am trying to raise one up in my new playthrough). And you're correct that in the later stages of the game, you get a lot more money. I always found I had too much money to spend when I really needed items, but that might change in this new run.

Hmm, you do bring up a good point that the Prankster Pokemon do provide a lot so long as their move is executed (which, basically always will be thanks to Prankster minus a Ciel Talonflame). I think Meowstic-M would be higher in viability if you had access to Thunder Wave because that move is stupid in tandem with Prankster. Stun Spore for sure is a very nice move despite the poor accuracy (get that Wide Lens swag going) and Whimsicott also has pretty interesting typing that does help a lot of Pokemon. My biggest question is when are you gonna get a Sun Stone to evolve Cottonee to a Whimsicott, but I am sure Cottonee still at least does something useful. If they provided offensive presence like Thundurus does in competitive Pokemon, then I think they would be S-tier, but hmm, A or A- might be a good place for it.

I agree with Dondon about getting to +6. Even if the opponent has an SE move, Swoobat brushes it off pretty well at +4. The biggest flaw with Swoobat is that it HAS to match up against a specialist or it will die. This leaves it in a very shaky position when using it in your team. Swoobat struggles on Julia, Corey (Confusion is horrible), Shelly (She's prepared for Flying types), Shade (boosted TBolt), Yuyeru, Noel, Radomus (Both STABS are mediocre on him), Luna, Blake, and Ciel. That's half of all the major fights in the game. That's why I said it should be C+, but I'm willing to agree with a B ranking.

Alright I'll settle for B ranking of Sudowoodo, but I strongly recommend you try it out with the set I stated.

Shinx-Luxio-Luxray: B-

Availability: 1 Badge

Movepool: Pretty Good

Comments: Luxray is most effective during the fight with Corey thanks to evolving at 30 and having Guts ability. It has fantastic 120 attack, but awkward 70 speed. Access to Crunch, Roar, Charge, and Scary Face offer Luxray some utility moves that help support it (Charge boosts Electric damage and Sp.D) or the team (Phaze, Speed drops). Luxray struggles to keep up with the desirable damage output throughout the game, which really hinders its appeal. However, it's only weak to Ground, and has good enough defenses to take hits from other types, as well as lower Physical attackers with Intimidate, or increase it's own stats with Rivalry (it's a gamble though). Luxray is definitely an option worth considering early game, but there are better Electric types available soon after.

Hmm, it seems that we can put Swoobat into B tier. And yeah you bring a good point that those matchups aren't fantastic for Swoobat. The final detailed analysis will definitely mention a little bit about that.

I will definitely try out your Sudowoodo set since that is easily learned via the level-up movepool when I find a Bonsly in the early stages of the game. I think a Rock type on my team would be a welcome addition esp since I don't wanna get blown back by Corey's Crobat.

I think B- is a good place for Luxray. It is definitely outclassed by a few Electric types, but it does fill a niche of a physical attacking Electric type and bringing Intimidate to the table along with the other utility moves it gets. I'll ask LordWallace to update the OP with it.

[dondon151]

I went through the rest of A tier to identify placements that seem grossly out of place:

Hariyama is too slow and doesn't hit quite hard enough to be an A+ tier Pokemon. A- tier seems more fitting. Hariyama has the benefit of being quite good earlygame and it stays decent, but it's really average later in the game.

Swampert is not an A tier Pokemon. Its movepool consists only of special STABs before Earthquake, it's fairly slow, and it doesn't hit particularly hard (and it gets no boosting moves). I think that Swampert and Samurott should at least switch places.

[LordWallace]

Alright I've been a bit busy and havent had time to update rankings but I have done some changes just now

Oshawott and Mudkip have switched rankings as suggested by Dondon, however I have to disagree about Hariyama since with Thick Fat it matches up spectacularly against the two arguably hardest fights of the endgame, Charlotte and Blake. He stays A+ for now.

Woobat has been moved up to B+ and Noibat down to C+.

I've also scrapped the whole thing about the order within individual ranks, makes things way too convoluted and doesnt serve enough of a purpose.

More changes will come soon

Edited November 15, 2015 by LordWallace

[sound of silence]

Really would disagree with switching swampert and samurott around. Samurott is badly outclassed by feraligatr once you get the chance at the totodile event, while swampert remains useful throughout the game. The special ground moves are actually helpful if you want to do any sort of meaningful damage against Aya due to the wasteland field (while being able to tank sludge waves), and by the time you get to serra, you only need to invest a few common candy to grab EQ and keep it obedient.

Swampert can do a fair bit of damage with its special movepool, especially against noel by using sludge wave to corrode the field, and then using the corrosive field to spam field boosted muddy water (which conveniently gains poison typing to be SE against that clefable). Reborn really isn't about what works usually and I think that is the major distinction not being taken into account for swampert. Muddy water gains quite a number of boosts in the early to mid game, especially against shade and kiki, which more than makes up for having to use the special attack stat.

Additionally, with energy ball typhlosion not being a thing anymore, swampert can fare a lot better against charlotte, as she has little grass coverage other than volcarona, and even then if the field is on fire, the grass coverage is nerfed, while you can spam EQ.

Rock slide and protect are also major selling points, especially protect. Being able to grab that move for doubles battles or stalling out some more leech seed/t-spikes damage is really underrated, or so I found in my first playthrough.

I do not see at all how samurott is useful until you at least get to Serra where resisting frost breath is a major selling point, only to risk your physical moves incur crash damage from the field. Swampert is useful against every leader except for florinia and shelly, possibly serra if any of her pokes have freeze dry, either by breaking the field, or grabbing easy bonuses from the field due to its level up and TM movepool.

Change swampert and samurott back please.

[dondon151]

- Feraligatr doesn't have access to a boosting move by level up; Samurott has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game (Swords Dance).

- How is Samurott outclassed by Feraligatr when you get Totodile at like L5 or something halfway through the game.

- Swampert's level-up movepool consists of crappy special STABs and Rock Slide until L51 Earthquake; Samurott's level-up movepool consists of L17 Razor Shell and L20 Fury Cutter.

Also Swampert is just slow and inefficient at KOing most opponents. It gets hit frequently and forces the player to dip into healing items.

Do not change Swampert and Samurott back please.

Edited November 15, 2015 by dondon151

[Heliosan]

- Feraligatr doesn't have access to a boosting move by level up; Samurott has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game (Swords Dance)

- How is Samurott outclassed by Feraligatr when you get Totodile at like L5 or something halfway through the game

- Swampert's level-up movepool consists of crappy special STABs and Rock Slide until L51 Earthquake; Samurott's level-up movepool consists of L17 Razor Shell and L20 Fury Cutter

Also Swampert is just slow and inefficient at KOing most opponents. It gets hit frequently and forces the player to dip into healing items.

Do not change Swampert and Samurott back please.

Wait, I thought you don't get Totodile until Ametrine Mountain which definitely isn't midgame...

Edited November 15, 2015 by Heliosan

[dondon151]

I just kind of guessed. If Totodile appears even later in the game then the case for it outclassing Samurott is even worse.

[sound of silence]

- Feraligatr doesn't have access to a boosting move by level up; Samurott has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game (Swords Dance).

- How is Samurott outclassed by Feraligatr when you get Totodile at like L5 or something halfway through the game.

- Swampert's level-up movepool consists of crappy special STABs and Rock Slide until L51 Earthquake; Samurott's level-up movepool consists of L17 Razor Shell and L20 Fury Cutter.

Also Swampert is just slow and inefficient at KOing most opponents. It gets hit frequently and forces the player to dip into healing items.

Do not change Swampert and Samurott back please.

-Dragon Dance >>> Swords dance for reborn. Samurott is far too slow to utilize swords dance in a way that would ensure a sweep.

-You get totodile at level 32 for starters, and even then the clown at agate circus makes grinding a non-issue

-You're ignoring the special STAB's getting boosted by the field effects, or the ground type being rather excellent early to mid game, asides from florinia and shelly which both pokemon are useless against (I may concede dewott to be useful if you grind the speed EV stat considerably, but even then the chance of hax and lack of STAB make fury cutter hard to get going against florinia when you have the type disadvantage) The crappy special STAB's hit quite hard against the appropriate trainers where you would get the most use out of it, while razor shell gets nothing.

-Swampert is quite capable of KO'ing opponents with proper investment, that is blatant hyperbole. I don't know what opponents you're expecting to KO with samurott frequently but once you get to samson, I'll take bulk over lousy speed and no bulk easy thanks.

Samurott is only useful if you are lucky enough to set up mass fury cutter spam against florinia, acquire facade for corey, Serra, Randomus due to megahorn access and maybe Charlotte if its not being blasted off the face of the earth due to lack of bulk and poor speed.

Swampert can 6-0 Julia, minimize damage taken from corey's poison spam. Attack with considerable power VS both shade and kiki due to muddy water gaining a 1.5 boost. It does very well against aya other than venusaur by dint of actually being able to tank sludge waves and mesh well in the doubles format. It breaks Serra's annoying field, it does well against Noel. It puts in effort against randomus due to resisting psychic from the field giving psychic rock typing. Breaks Luna's field as well as being great against both bisharp and tyrannitar. Has enough bulk to take down at least one of samson's mons. Great against charlotte. Great against Terra and can at least tank something from ciel.

No way is Samurott more useful. Swampert back to A- thanks. Also Barbaracle needs a rank still.

Edit: Samurott is useful against Luna. Just remembered how slow that team is. Also Totodile does outclass samurott once you can get it due to being the better sweeper from the speed boosts from dragon dance. Speed or bulk are major components in reborn, and a poor halfway compromise between the two (AKA samurott) does not cut it.

Edited November 15, 2015 by sound of silence

[dondon151]

The event Totodile is not guaranteed Dragon Dance. In the case in which it does get Dragon Dance, then it's infinitely superior to both Samurott and Swampert (aside from having to get it up to speed), so you may not use Totodile as an argument against Samurott but not against Swampert.

You're overstating how difficult it is to get Samurott set up. Your grievance about it not being fast enough to sweep is irrelevant; an X Speed allows it to outspeed almost all similarly leveled opponents in the game.

The crappy special STAB's hit quite hard against the appropriate trainers where you would get the most use out of it, while razor shell gets nothing.

That's an odd way of saying that Swampert's special STABs have very situational use whereas Samurott's Razor Shell is generally better. But I'll take it.

Edited November 15, 2015 by dondon151

[sound of silence]

The event Totodile is not guaranteed Dragon Dance. In the case in which it does get Dragon Dance, then it's infinitely superior to both Samurott and Swampert (aside from having to get it up to speed), so you may not use Totodile as an argument against Samurott but not against Swampert.

You're overstating how difficult it is to get Samurott set up. Your grievance about it not being fast enough to sweep is irrelevant; an X Speed allows it to outspeed almost all similarly leveled opponents in the game.

That's an odd way of saying that Swampert's special STABs have very situational use whereas Samurott's Razor Shell is generally better. But I'll take it.

I'll let point 1 slide as it was a dumb idea to compare bulky tanks with sweepers, so we'll try and focus on the argument that swampert is more useful throughout the game than samurott is.

As for your X-item comment, No. Just no. X-items are a stupid argument because just about any pokemon in the C ranks or higher become much better with an X-item. This is not exclusive to samurott. Secondly, they do not mitigate the fact samurott is pathetically slow for a sweeper. Rather, it enforces the fact that to get any sort of good use out of it, you need serious investment, whereas while swampert would kill for leftovers or the tm for rest to be added, it can still do it's job of tanking hits and KO'ing what it needs to.

As for your last comment, I'd recommend replaying the game up until about shade's gym. Maybe then you will realise razor shell is not helpful because you are constantly up against opponents where a mono-water type is a really bad idea. Swampert's ground typing at least ensures it is quite capable where samurott is otherwise a poor choice (julia's gym, corey's gym, the orphanage, shade's gym). Whereas those situational boosts you get with swampert's moves actually do help it to be usable during the course of the game.

Edited November 15, 2015 by sound of silence

[Fumble]

idk if this was overlooked or not but here:

Vivillon for C/C+/B-

Availability: 2 Badges

Movepool: OK

Comments: Once Pokemon #666 gets to level 45, it learns Quiver Dance. Combine this with Sleep Powder (which has an almost perfect chance of hitting with Compound Eyes, and you can effectively sweep a whole lot of teams, utilizing Bug Buzz and Hurricane, which you get a little later. Vivillon also has some moves you may want to try out like Sunny Day/Rain Dance, Draining Kiss, and Aromatherapy. The only problem is that Vivillon gets the moves it needs pretty late, around the sixth Gym, and it has to be faster than the lead Pokemon. Luckily, this is the case for Noel, Radomus (if he doesn't get a Trick Room up), Bennett, Luna, etc.

[wytch_doctr]

Just a thing that kind of annoys me. Bronzor being ranked C. Personally, Levitate Bronzong can easily be a B- or a B at least.

Bronzor - Bronzong for B/B- rank
Availability: 8-9 badges, 10-13 badges (Iolia Valley, Route 3)
Movepool: Pretty Good/Okay
Comments: Bronzong is a very well balanced Pokemon, with a great typing in Steel/Psychic (weak to Fire, Ground, Dark and Ghost, but with Heatproof/Levitate it only has 3) and about equal stats in Physical Defense and Special Defense, as well as Physical Attack and Special Attack. It learns Sunny Day and Rain Dance which can be useful for Blake and Charlotte respectively, and also just to set up your Pokemon after it to sweep a leader/boss. From experience, Heavy Slam is a great move to easily KO most of Blake's Pokemon. Ciel's Pokemon include TOGEKISS, ARCHEOPS and the dreaded ALTARIA, all of which are weak to Steel. If you survive the initial flinch from Togekiss you set up TR and can Heavy Slam it, wither killing or wasting it's Potions. It is available after Radomus, which means you have access to Trick Room immediately when getting it. Recommended moveset: Heavy Slam, Extrasensory, Trick Room, Sunny Day/Rain Dance.

[dondon151]

As for your X-item comment, No. Just no. X-items are a stupid argument because just about any pokemon in the C ranks or higher become much better with an X-item. This is not exclusive to samurott.

How are they a stupid argument? X items do not affect all Pokemon equally. They are not free boosts for all Pokemon because it costs a fair amount of money to actually get these Pokemon to sweeping status. Samurott only needs one X Speed to complement Swords Dance boosts in order to sweep. Swords Dance + X Speed is functionally equivalent to 2 Dragon Dances if Samurott outspeeds all of its opponents at +1 speed.

As for your last comment, I'd recommend replaying the game up until about shade's gym. Maybe then you will realise razor shell is not helpful because you are constantly up against opponents where a mono-water type is a really bad idea. Swampert's ground typing at least ensures it is quite capable where samurott is otherwise a poor choice (julia's gym, corey's gym, the orphanage, shade's gym). Whereas those situational boosts you get with swampert's moves actually do help it to be usable during the course of the game.

I am playing the game up and thus far the water-type looks like a pretty good offensive type (in general) to me.

[AuthorReborn]

Let's not talk about X-items because we're focusing on the mons themselves. It's one thing to say "focus sash can help this mon since it is frail" and another to artifically increase their stats through X-items, thus invalidating the point of their stats. Anyway, here's a mon that I love using:

Misdreavus - Mismagius for B ranking

Availibility: You can grab Misdreavus shortly after Aya in Episode 15 or before Aya in Episode 14 or before. The first dusk stone can be found in the railnet after resucing the kids (iirc), so Mismagius is availible within one badge of originally encountering it.

Typing: Pure Ghost, so no unfortuneate x4 weaknesses. Only weak to Ghost and Dark and has a strong Offensive type. Immune to two types naturally and another through the ability Levitate.

Stats: High Special Attack/Defense and Speed. Everything else is terrible.

Movepool: Learns Shadow Ball via level-up as a Misdreavus (lvl 41). Perish Song for utility and Bosses (46), Power Gem, Mystical Fire, and Psybeam (55/Relearner, Relearner, and 28 respectively). Biggest assest comes from breeding for Nasty Plot from Spiritomb to be able to set up and spam Shadow Ball. Charge Beam can be run if you like coverage or just getting the easy boosts and it can also set up Rain or Sun if your team needs the support. HP is obviously availible for coverage (Fighting prefered to deal with Dark types). All in all, quite diverse.

Major Battles: Can outspeed/use a sash/focus band to survive a hit from "one pokemon fights" (Arceus, PULSE Abra, and Mewtwo in particular), then Perish Song. Mismagius can nearly solo Radomus with Nasty Plot and the boosts the field provides for NP. If you can get it in on a weakened or burned member of Samson's team, it has serious sweeping potential. Pretty useless on Luna, but helpful on Bennett just before that. Noel's main stab attacks cannot touch it and thus it becomes set up fodder (although Shadow Ball will only be hurting Clefable, so make sure you have a coverage move to handle the rest). Psybeam and Charge Beam can be quite useful on Serra as well. Can be helpful on Charlotte once Darmitan is gone and can effectively set up Rain. It can also be quite helpful on Terra since Nasty Plot then boosts both special stats. Make sure the physical attackers have been weakened before setting up though.

[Personthing]

Lillipup/Herdier/Stoutland

Tier: B+

Availability: 1 badge

Abilities: Intimidate, Sand Rush, Scrappy

Movepool: Pretty good

Comments: The Lillipup line can be a very solid crutch throughout the early and mid game, and while it loses a bit of steam in the late game, it's still perfectly usable. It starts with Take Down, and gets Crunch at level 24 which means on top of having good offences and early evolutions (Evolves into Herdier at level 16, and Stoutland at level 32), the Lillipup line has access to powerful moves much earlier than many other Pokemon you get at a similar point in the game. When fully evolved at level 32 it has a very high attack stat (Base 110), and pretty good stats all around (85 HP, 90 Defence and Special Defence, and 80 Speed). At level 63 it gets Play Rough, and once you get to the move tutor it can get all of the elemental fangs for coverage. It also gets STAB Strength. It also has a great ability in Intimidate which lets it manage physical threats with ease, and while Scrappy is usually a good ability, it's a bit less useful as Stoutland gets Crunch. These are the reasons why I believe the Lillipup line belongs in the B+ tier.

Let's not talk about X-items because we're focusing on the mons themselves. It's one thing to say "focus sash can help this mon since it is frail" and another to artifically increase their stats through X-items, thus invalidating the point of their stats. Anyway, here's a mon that I love using:

why not? A pokemon should be judged by it's ability to use all of the resources available to the player, and not merely judged in a vacuum.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Shad_]

Emolga

Tier: A

Avliavability: 2 Badges

Abilities: Static, Motordrive

Movepool: Pretty damn good

Comments: Emolga has access to Nuzzle and Electro Ball. These two moves combined with Emolga's Speed (base 103) can destroy an incredible number of teams/opponents. It can make some battles really easy (even against the Gym Leaders) and it has just 2 weaknesses, Ice and Rock. Rock can be covered by breeding an Iron Tail Emolga but even without it the combo Nuzzle/Electro Ball can really make miracles. I strongly recommend this pokemon to everyone who hasn't tried it yet.

[Dragon116]

I disagree Kamina. If everything is based on it's ability to use items, then that would make something mediocre, like Unfeazant and make it more powerful than an unboosted Blaziken, thus skewing all the results. If everything is based on the same amount of X-Items or whatnot, then essentially it's the same as if they were in a vacuum. Pokemon are better judged in their natural state, which is one of the reasons LordWallace and his partner are not judging based on breedable moves (unless obtainable through event).

In regards to Feraligatr, you can't get DDance on it until the end of the game, making that move only usable for 1 gym. Therefore Feraligatr needs to be ranked a lot lower than something naturally viable early on like Samurott.

[Personthing]

I disagree Kamina. If everything is based on it's ability to use items, then that would make something mediocre, like Unfeazant and make it more powerful than an unboosted Blaziken, thus skewing all the results. If everything is based on the same amount of X-Items or whatnot, then essentially it's the same as if they were in a vacuum. Pokemon are better judged in their natural state, which is one of the reasons LordWallace and his partner are not judging based on breedable moves (unless obtainable through event).

Certain Pokemon make much better and more efficient use of these resources, you'll get much better and more efficient results by giving one X-speed to a Diggersby then spamming X-items on an Unfeazant, for example. While I don't think how much a Pokemon benefits from an X-item should be a major part of their ranking, if a Pokemon gets massive returns for the use of 1 X-item (more than 1 is inefficient), it should be considered somewhat. It's a resource very easily available to the player, so it can't be completely ignored.

EDIT: To be more clear, of course I believe prioritising a Pokemon's natural ability. But if they get a massive payoff from just 1 use of an X-item, I believe that it's too much to be completely ignored and has to be factored somewhat.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[wytch_doctr]

Treeko - Grovyle - Sceptile for B- rank
Availability: 0 badges
Movepool: Okay
Comments: Only available as a starter in Reborn, however it lacks the power and the bulk to be able to hold it's own in fights. With a hard-to-use ability in Unburden, Treeko can find itself in trouble often in the early game. However, with patience to wait until level 21 to evolve it, Treeko will learn Giga Drain which will be vital in later battles, and complements it's high base Special Attack very well. As a Grovyle, it begins to learn fantastic Physical Attacks which you can use with it's decent (but not fantastic) Attack stat. When it evolves into a Sceptile, however, it becomes a powerhouse. It's moveset by then improves drastically, getting access to X-Scissor (45) and Leaf Storm through Move Tutor or at level 63. It's speed is a great asset and Leaf Storm could very well OHKO any not resisted opponent. Also, it learns Nature Power, which combined with it's balanced attacking stats, makes it viable for abusing a Field's capability.

[sound of silence]

The only reason ever to use X-Items is when you really want to use something that is otherwise too weak beyond a certain point of the game. This very much applies to samurott and probably quite a number of other pokemon. X-items don't teach you how to battle properly, offering a cheap cop-out to have a pokemon sweep or perform where it quite simply shouldn't otherwise, as opposed to properly building a team of pokemon that can actually do the job of getting past said chokepoint.

Asides from that complaint, once you get to Luna (possibly even before that), due to the large increase in base move power granted by field effects, the only thing that is allowing you to get an X-item + various boosting move off over 2 turns without getting KO'd are

-Exceptional bouts of AI stupidity

-Accuracy issues from the moves of the AI

-Screens/Memento/Encore support

Betting on either of the first two options is an extremely stupid way to battle, though I begrudgingly concede that it is sometimes necessary to get past certain opponents in reborn. The last option is reasonable if only due to the existence of Meowstic-M, but having to give up an entire team slot AND get through two turns relatively unscathed (depending on how much priority your opponent has) is asking way too much without relying on the AI to mess up.

Nothing in this list should ever be ranked based on X-items, period. If I can't convince that samurott is not what people think it is, so be it, but please return the mudkip line to where it rightfully belongs as it is capable of being a clutch pokemon even if you do have to wait a long time before getting EQ. Despite the poor special attack for its special moves, they are quite capable of dealing damage enough to take down the foes it needs, or gaining boosts from the fields to bring the power of the attack back up to acceptable levels. It also performs admirably in the double battle formats due to a large amount of spread attacks + naturally learning protect.

[Personthing]

Nothing in this list should ever be ranked based on X-items, period. If I can't convince that samurott is not what people think it is, so be it, but please return the mudkip line to where it rightfully belongs as it is capable of being a clutch pokemon even if you do have to wait a long time before getting EQ. Despite the poor special attack for its special moves, they are quite capable of dealing damage enough to take down the foes it needs, or gaining boosts from the fields to bring the power of the attack back up to acceptable levels. It also performs admirably in the double battle formats due to a large amount of spread attacks + naturally learning protect.

I don't care for X-items in the slightest and I don't use them, but to completely ignore a resource that the players have easy access to is silly. Like, I don't believe they should even have a major effect on tiering, but if a Pokemon becomes a god tier sweeper after just 1 X-speed (Any more, and that's too much needed to be considered useful), then that's a bit too much to completely ignore and should factor in somewhat. (Like if we were rating a Pokemon out of 10, maybe a 1 point boost)

On Mudkip, simply put, it doesn't deserve A-tier. You've said it yourself, it has a mediocre special attack, is extremely slow, and it's movepool is primarily special until it gets Earthquake at level 51. In that time, other Pokemon, including other water types, outperform it easily. It's saving grace is that it becomes quite solid after it gets Earthquake, and Rock Slide provides decent coverage. It's typing is also good, and I do believe that it has enough going for it that it should be somewhere in the B-tier.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[sound of silence]

I don't care for X-items in the slightest and I don't use them, but to completely ignore a resource that the players have easy access to is silly. Like, I don't believe they should even have a major effect on tiering, but if a Pokemon becomes a god tier sweeper after just 1 X-speed (Any more, and that's too much needed to be considered useful), then that's a bit too much to completely ignore and should factor in somewhat. (Like if we were rating a Pokemon out of 10, maybe a 1 point boost)

On Mudkip, simply put, it doesn't deserve A-tier. You've said it yourself, it has a mediocre special attack, is extremely slow, and it's movepool is primarily special until it gets Earthquake at level 51. In that time, other Pokemon, including other water types, outperform it easily. It's saving grace is that it becomes quite solid after it gets Earthquake, and Rock Slide provides decent coverage. It's typing is also good, and I do believe that it has enough going for it that it should be somewhere in the B-tier.

Except none of the early game water types you can get with the sole exceptions of lightning rod goldeen and protean froakie outperform mudkip's line because of the ground typing. Seriously do people even read the bit where the special move power doesn't matter because your typing allows you to mitigate half the early game problems water types have or can actually be beneficial due to certain field effects (see the wasteland nerfing EQ), or due to the higher defence of some ground weak pokes (doublade on shade's team comes to mind) or the fact muddy water gains 1.5 boosts on most fields you battle on from shade to kiki? Half the early leaders can't even tank mud shot or mud bomb because they're hilariously weak to begin with or do nothing to marshtomp/swampert in return.

I swear some people are seriously thick, having no concept that the early game is designed to shit all over every other water type you can pick (outside of froakie and catching goldeen), thinking that there are no field effects or anything. Swampert doesn't need EQ until it gets to serra, which by then it can acquire with the use of a common candy afterwards. Saying that its special movepool isn't helpful ignores the entire aspect of reborn that separates it from the main franchise: the fields.

Or better yet, asides from goldeen and froakie, name me one water type that is even remotely useful in the following part of reborn: the start of the game until you get past the yureyu building.

If people are too daft to understand how good an extra boost to your attacks are that doesn't consume items or waste turns, then I don't know how you're getting through the game ignoring the benefits of good typing or potential terrain boosts.

[Personthing]

Except none of the early game water types you can get with the sole exceptions of lightning rod goldeen and protean froakie outperform mudkip's line because of the ground typing. Seriously do people even read the bit where the special move power doesn't matter because your typing allows you to mitigate half the early game problems water types have or can actually be beneficial due to certain field effects (see the wasteland nerfing EQ), or due to the higher defence of some ground weak pokes (doublade on shade's team comes to mind) or the fact muddy water gains 1.5 boosts on most fields you battle on from shade to kiki? Half the early leaders can't even tank mud shot or mud bomb because they're hilariously weak to begin with or do nothing to marshtomp/swampert in return.

I swear some people are seriously thick, having no concept that the early game is designed to shit all over every other water type you can pick (outside of froakie and catching goldeen), thinking that there are no field effects or anything. Swampert doesn't need EQ until it gets to serra, which by then it can acquire with the use of a common candy afterwards. Saying that its special movepool isn't helpful ignores the entire aspect of reborn that separates it from the main franchise: the fields.

Or better yet, asides from goldeen and froakie, name me one water type that is even remotely useful in the following part of reborn: the start of the game until you get past the yureyu building.

If people are too daft to understand how good an extra boost to your attacks are that doesn't consume items or waste turns, then I don't know how you're getting through the game ignoring the benefits of good typing or potential terrain boosts.

Let's check all the terrain boosts the Mudkip line can take advantage of:

Corrosive field boosts mudshot and muddy water (which it won't have by the time you face Corey, but can be used later if you give it Sludge Wave in the grassy field). Muddy Water also gets boosts from the broken factory (which Swampert can't create on it's own until it gets Earthquake), Kiki's field and the Swamp Field. So that's pretty good. Too bad those field effects aren't around the whole game, and the rest of the game Swampert has to rely on it's mediocre special attack without any sort of assistance from the field effects. Oh, speaking of the early game, Mudkip can barely contribute in a few fights such as Florinia, against the Pulse Tangrowths, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe a fair few of Shelly's Pokemon are packing Giga Drain as well.

Azumarill completely outclasses the Mudkip line due to a good physical movepool (It gets Aqua Tail at level 21 and Play Rough at level 25, holy crap) and Huge Power. It does suffer the same speed issues though. The Oshawott line is good due to an early Razor Shell, Water Pulse (It's good both specially and physically), Fury Cutter, Revenge, Aqua Jet, and although you'll be passed Yureyu it gets Swords Dance as well.

By the way, have I ever said the Mudkip line is horrible? (If I have, then you can hold that over me) I just believe it has enough going against it to limit it to the B-tier, but enough going for it to not make it any lower. Hell, it's my third favorite Pokemon line of all time (only behind the Cyndaquil and Totodile lines), but it's flaws are pretty glaring even with it's strengths.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[dondon151]

Setup sweeping is consistently the most reliable way to do a battle because it only relies on things going correctly against one opponent Pokemon. X Speed is generally the most useful X item because for most Pokemon with middling speed, only +1 is sufficient to outspeed almost every target.

Of course X items should be considered. X items are a big reason why Diggersby is viable late in the game and why Meowstic-M and Cottonee are so good.