Are gym leaders insane?

[Damage]

So I was thinking while in the bathroom (always a good time for reflection and what not) why aren't there giant forces or organizations of good guys. A group of trainers and battlers and civil service individuals that are a step above the police force in pokemon games. Then perhaps spacing smaller groups and/or individuals out so that they may better protect any given region? Then I stopped thinking because I was done at the pokecenter and had to go to my next gym battle.

Seriously though why not have these guys take time off to protect their towns instead of battle OP ten year olds? Am I overthinking this? Are gym leaders just meant to be slightly better than others? Should they HAVE to step away from gyms in times of crisis? Will Batman and Robin escape the Penguin's trap? I'm curious on your thoughts.

[GenOneRaisedGenY]

In the Pokemon Adventures manga comics, gym leaders are more like what you described. And Pokemon's creator, Satoshi Tajiri, endorses the Pokemon Adventures series as the comics that most resemble the world he was trying to convey in his games. So, I guess it just boils down to certain limitations that come with fleshing out a story through an RPG.

Edited January 6, 2016 by GenOneRaisedGenY

[TimTim]

Thats why i like gen 5 in term of gym leader involvement in the bigger picture and plots, at least the gym leaders assisted in stopping Plasma sages instead of inaction while the world was turning upside down. One thing though, Marlon's skewed sense of evil and good still bugs me(really dude? Team Plasma is freezing up the entire city and you are questioning me if the organization is evil or not)

[mde2001]

Thats why i like gen 5 in term of gym leader involvement in the bigger picture and plots, at least the gym leaders assisted in stopping Plasma sages instead of inaction while the world was turning upside down. One thing though, Marlon's skewed sense of evil and good still bugs me(really dude? Team Plasma is freezing up the entire city and you are questioning me if the organization is evil or not)

I pretty much agree with everything here. Gen 5 did a good job of integrating gym leaders which is actually my favourite things about those games. It gave so much more depth to the characters and made the story more coherent.

However Marlon is the worst character in a pokemon game for me to date. If he had been in BW1 he would have been okay but he made 0 sense in BW2. Also I found him questioning my judgement in a game where I got to make no decisions annoying.

[Friendly Smiles]

In gen five, wasn't there a huge cut scene where all the gym leaders and "good guys" came and took away team Plasma?

[Chase]

The major disappointing thing about this though? Is that in Gen 6, they didn't allow for it to become a trend.

Viola's only outside appearance is to inform the player about the Battle Chateau - which is not even a part of the story. The only other time the player encounters Viola is when they are explicitly challenging them.

Grant also serves an assisting or explanatory role about an event that the player can't take part in, telling the player Grant won the previous bike race and giving the player Strength. The only other times the player encounters Grant is with the intent to challenge.

Korrina is the LONE exception to story progression, encountering the player numerous times and serving as the Mega Evolution Successor.

Ramos only takes challengers.

Clemont only is seen lighting up his gym, and only takes challengers.

Valerie only takes challengers

Olympia only takes challengers

...and Wulfric actually makes a cameo taking care of Pokemon in a meadow - but is relatively insignificant to the story.

[Damage]

I know they actually finally stepped up against plasma but I feel its mentioned several times in the show and games that the Champion plays a part in keeping the region safe so doesn't that (by default) include the elite four at least if not the leaders? I think its just wasted potential to not have more story given to these characters especially since pokemon games aren't exactly known for their depth.

[Masquerain]

Unova had it right, and then they stepped back to the roots of useless gym leaders. I do believe in the future you should see cameos of E4s or gym leaders or the champ (not necessarily know who they are even if it's obvious) where they try to involve themselves. Unova is really the one game with that feature..you had Burgh, even Iris...then all the other gym leaders later at the cutscene. Only the E4 just sit there quietly. We definitely need more of that . Even in the anime, Gym leaders are not always in their gyms (Then again, they aren't in games either, just not for a useful reason)

[Tomas Elliot]

Thats why i like gen 5 in term of gym leader involvement in the bigger picture and plots, at least the gym leaders assisted in stopping Plasma sages instead of inaction while the world was turning upside down. One thing though, Marlon's skewed sense of evil and good still bugs me(really dude? Team Plasma is freezing up the entire city and you are questioning me if the organization is evil or not)

I agree with this as well. One aspect I have always criticized about Reborn is that its gym leaders include traumatized kids who are locked up and abused in an orphanage, as well as a friggin' GHOST. That kinda detracts from the credibility of the Pokemon League as a legitimate organization: can you imagine Shade's job interview?

Interviewer: "So, why are you applying for this position? And what makes you think you would be the right person for it?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Your curriculum says that you 'collect souls', could you please expand a bit on this subject?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Do you have any previous experience managing a gym and/or training Pokemon on a professional level?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Congratulations, you are hired!"

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

My favorite scene in BW is when the gym leaders all show up and fight the sages.

It was very disappointing to see the Gym Leaders go back to not do anything at all in XY after Gen 5 really excelled at giving them presence. Other than Korrina, I think the only Gym Leaders outside Gen 5 to actually do anything in the story were Giovanni, Jasmine, Clair, Norman, and Wallace (and Wattson if you include New Mauville). And Clair's role was to delay you getting a badge because she was too full of herself to admit she lost.

[Cobalt996]

Are gym leaders insane? Yes, yes they are. How else could a person stand to stay in one building, usually in a specific location therein, for their entire life. willingly?

...Let's leave Brandon out of that, though. He's a cheater in the anime.

I agree with this as well. One aspect I have always criticized about Reborn is that its gym leaders include traumatized kids who are locked up and abused in an orphanage, as well as a friggin' GHOST. That kinda detracts from the credibility of the Pokemon League as a legitimate organization: can you imagine Shade's job interview?

Or Titania, for that matter.

"...graduated with honors from Onyx Trainer School, along with three others who have also become Certified Reborn League Gym Leaders... looks like everything is in order! Just two quick questions before we certify your gym. You have several written offenses involving aggression, most with presumed lethal intent... now, that wouldn't be much of an issue, due to how this job works, but there's the matter of your proposed gym being located in the middle of a desert. There are... concerns that your chosen location may be connected to your bouts of aggression. As neither myself nor Ame can vouch for your control, and you do have multiple recorded outbursts, your application is denied until further notice."

That looks a bit realistic. And now we know how Shade got hired, too!

I know they actually finally stepped up against plasma but I feel its mentioned several times in the show and games that the Champion plays a part in keeping the region safe so doesn't that (by default) include the elite four at least if not the leaders?

Nope. Not since Malva was a part of Team Flare.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Cobalt996

[DerogatoryTrainer]

I agree with this as well. One aspect I have always criticized about Reborn is that its gym leaders include traumatized kids who are locked up and abused in an orphanage, as well as a friggin' GHOST. That kinda detracts from the credibility of the Pokemon League as a legitimate organization: can you imagine Shade's job interview?

Interviewer: "So, why are you applying for this position? And what makes you think you would be the right person for it?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Your curriculum says that you 'collect souls', could you please expand a bit on this subject?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Do you have any previous experience managing a gym and/or training Pokemon on a professional level?"

Shade: "..."

Interviewer: "Congratulations, you are hired!"

So much yes in that post

And it especially ticks me off that a 9 year old is part of the Elite Four in Reborn

Frickin Heather and her UGH's

[Damage]

To be fair I'm sure they were probably afraid of the soul collecting shadow that grins from his stomach when he battles. Serious note is if not the gym leaders then some other force. One could make the argument that involving the gym leaders in political and domestic affairs is akin to involving Professional athletes in riot control. Just because they're strong doesn't mean they're responsible. I just think that since all the pokemon regions have been related (since ash goes all over the world) by now some larger force of trainers should of been established to deal with these insane organizations instead of relying on minors because... anime.

[Cobalt996]

To be fair I'm sure they were probably afraid of the soul collecting shadow that grins from his stomach when he battles. Serious note is if not the gym leaders then some other force. One could make the argument that involving the gym leaders in political and domestic affairs is akin to involving Professional athletes in riot control. Just because they're strong doesn't mean they're responsible. I just think that since all the pokemon regions have been related (since ash goes all over the world) by now some larger force of trainers should of been established to deal with these insane organizations instead of relying on minors because... anime.

Like, say, the Ranger Union? Then again, they don't exactly have the numbers to deal with a large-scale criminal organization. Maybe the nebulous governing bodies in Pokemon just find it easier to have random 10-year-olds go take over most of the law enforcement field; definitely cheaper.

[Deleted User]

[Tomas Elliot]

One could make the argument that involving the gym leaders in political and domestic affairs is akin to involving Professional athletes in riot control. Just because they're strong doesn't mean they're responsible.

This being the Pokemon world, your perspective is wrong. Everything, including riot and crime control, is done with Pokemon, so the best at Pokemon is the best at those things too. It is therefore a precise responsibility of the gym leader to be an active, productive and helpful member of the community, which leads me to the point where your perspective is wrong: it's not that strong trainers are not guaranteed to be responsible, it's that whoever hires gym leaders should look for people who are, first of all, responsible. Ability with Pokemon is only a preliminary requisite (as in, if you are not that good you aren't even considered for the position) but then, when it comes to actually deciding who, among all the promising trainers, gets to be a gym leader, the responsible and productive people should be prioritized. Better if they also have a job or position that allows them to also be useful to the community in other ways than merely managing the local gym.

In short, being a gym leader should be a double responsibility: you are BOTH a skilled professional athlete AND a charismatic leader of the community. If you lack the skills to excel at both things, then you are not fit for the position. Which brings me back full circle to my initial criticism of ghosts and orphans getting the position. Specifically, what I criticize about the orphans is not the fact that they are orphans, but the fact that they are locked up in an orphanage where they are regularly abused, they are never allowed outside as far as we know, and they all display some personality disorders. Who would ever grant a position of double responsibility to people who are in such conditions, and on what basis?

[Chase]

Tomas, I'd be willing to argue that in Reborn it works out rather nicely because of the rather dystopian setting. In other words, Reborn isn't SUPPOSED as controlled or ideal as other regions would be.

If I remember things correctly chronologically (not realistically - as we all know the major non-Meteor people in Reborn are based off of people Ame knows.) In-game Ame didn't exactly have a sizeable workforce pool to work with having begun to assemble her Pokemon League AFTER Meteor began causing catastrophe across the region.

Also, despite being imperfect characters, they are VERY MUCH well written into the story as protectors and defenders anyway.

TL:DR - The characters don't have to be ideal if the setting isn't ideal and it makes sense with what we know about the story up to that point. The main focus should be - and in the original post of this thread IS - how are the characters that hold these league positions used throughout the story?

[Tomas Elliot]

My point was much more practical than that: if they are locked in an orphanage and never allowed outside, how does the in-game Ame know them well enough to offer them the position? And what feats could they possibly have to their name to justify such an offer?

Besides, "non-ideal people are fine in a non-ideal setting" is an out-of-universe justification, the person who, in-universe, hands out the position is STILL expected to look for fitting people, with "fitting" meaning everything I detailed in my previous post(s). You can say all you want that Reborn is a dystopian story, but its characters are not supposed to be aware of it.

And the way they are used throughout the story is strictly linked to this. Take Noel: technically speaking, the orphanage was legally holding him, and it just so happens that taking away a kid from an orphanage that legally holds him is a crime, so his gym battle takes place while both you and him are technically WANTED FELONS, and in a friend's house, not an officially recognized structure. What validity could a badge obtained in such conditions possibly hold? Sure, it is a very dramatic situation and it tells a good story, but it throws the whole idea of gym leaders as legally recognized milestones in a trainer's journey out of the window.

All this to say that Reborn, as it often does, starts good by differentiating itself from the canon games, but then goes too far. Canon games (outside of Gen 5) focus too much on the battle aspect of the leaders and their role as milestones in your journey, completely overlooking their importance as characters in the plot; Reborn does the reverse, sacrificing credibility and undermining the very core of the whole gym leader concept for the sake of telling a good story.

[Hiss13]

While you do make valid points, Tomas…I would also like to point out that it's been pretty evident since the beginning that the Reborn region has never had its shit together. I forgot who (Flobot or Sparky-Sparky-Boom-Boom) lampshades this back in Episode 15. But have the authority figures within Reborn ever come off as in control?

[Derax]

Seeing as how the authorities allowed Dr. Connell to conduct ECT upon the minors in his care, it would appear that the authorities of Reborn have always been leaving something to be desired.

With regards to the other gym leaders pre and post Gen-V, it is certainly upsetting that they're left as nothing more than glorified checkpoints in the game. As has been said, Satoshi Tajiri stated that the Pokemon Adventures manga was the best representation of the world he'd envisioned the games to be like. All one has to do is read the battles of the Kanto and Johto gym leaders and the subsequent conclusion to the plot of the GSC arc to see just how amazing the characters are.

[Tomas Elliot]

While you do make valid points, Tomas…I would also like to point out that it's been pretty evident since the beginning that the Reborn region has never had its shit together. I forgot who (Flobot or Sparky-Sparky-Boom-Boom) lampshades this back in Episode 15. But have the authority figures within Reborn ever come off as in control?

Of course. Authority figures are not in control because Reborn deconstructs Pokemon tropes. But as I have said multiple times in multiple topics, there is a fine line between "deconstruction" and "undermining a core element for the sake of telling a good story". Julia, Aya and Titania are "deconstruction". The orphaned kids and Shade are "undermining a core element for the sake of telling a good story".

Or at least I think so. Remember this is a personal opinion, I do not expect anyone to agree with me. I just like to back up my opinions with facts is all.

To go back to the object of this topic: the role the gym leaders of Reborn play in the plot, outside of their gym, could also be cited as examples of what I am saying. Julia, as likeable as she is, is certified insane, so when she gets out of her gym to help you fight off the baddies, she does so by causing property damage. This is deconstruction, and done very cleverly at that. And don't even get me started on the whole Corey ordeal, of which I am a notorious fanboy.

But then you have instances like Noel that cross the line, as I have already detailed. Again, this is just my personal opinion but... Yeah. It has never been a secret that this is my major pet peeve with Reborn.

[Azeria]

Of course. Authority figures are not in control because Reborn deconstructs Pokemon tropes. But as I have said multiple times in multiple topics, there is a fine line between "deconstruction" and "undermining a core element for the sake of telling a good story". Julia, Aya and Titania are "deconstruction". The orphaned kids and Shade are "undermining a core element for the sake of telling a good story".

Or at least I think so. Remember this is a personal opinion, I do not expect anyone to agree with me. I just like to back up my opinions with facts is all.

To go back to the object of this topic: the role the gym leaders of Reborn play in the plot, outside of their gym, could also be cited as examples of what I am saying. Julia, as likeable as she is, is certified insane, so when she gets out of her gym to help you fight off the baddies, she does so by causing property damage. This is deconstruction, and done very cleverly at that. And don't even get me started on the whole Corey ordeal, of which I am a notorious fanboy.

But then you have instances like Noel that cross the line, as I have already detailed. Again, this is just my personal opinion but... Yeah. I have never kept it secret that this is my major pet peeve with Reborn.

What's wrong with a grim reaper gym leader? And as for the part with the orphaned children; Charlotte is explained in the story to have gained the gym from their mother. Noel and Anna I have no idea on but I believe that shortly before they were placed under Sigmunds care, Noel gained the title of gym leader(or so it's stated in the game.)I mean, you have Bugsy who's not all that much older than them so....

Though you did say that you wondered why characters in orphanage have the title of gym leader and somebody else replied that it's because of how unstable reborn is as a region at the moment that they're able to keep their title of gym leader. Allow me to present to you; Giovanni. This guy is the Viridian city gym leader in Kanto who has abandoned his gym for OVER a decade and during that time led what was equivalent to the mafia of the region, controlling the underground world and laying siege to Silph Co's main HQ. I repeat, his organization laid siege to the headquarters of the regions main corporate giant, and no investigations were made into his whereabouts or his recent activities or even WHO HE WAS?

You could make a case for this 'deconstructing' the common theme of gym leaders being good people and peacekeepers of the region or even Giovanni bribing the officials but then again, Shade is a ghost...or a completely different entity and a remnant from the league and region before it was thrown into disarray by Team Meteor which explains why he's a gym leader. None of us know whether he((It?))actually gained the title through proper means or in a way similarly to Charlotte and stuff by inheriting it. We simply do not have enough knowledge of how people attain the title and position either in this game or any pokemon game really. (In game)Amethyst could have just approached Shade at some point in time and added the entity to the league. We don't know and that's part of the mystery around Shade IMO.

[Tomas Elliot]

What's wrong with a grim reaper gym leader? And as for the part with the orphaned children; Charlotte is explained in the story to have gained the gym from their mother. Noel and Anna I have no idea on but I believe that shortly before they were placed under Sigmunds care, Noel gained the title of gym leader(or so it's stated in the game.)I mean, you have Bugsy who's not all that much older than them so....

Though you did say that you wondered why characters in orphanage have the title of gym leader and somebody else replied that it's because of how unstable reborn is as a region at the moment that they're able to keep their title of gym leader. Allow me to present to you; Giovanni. This guy is the Viridian city gym leader in Kanto who has abandoned his gym for OVER a decade and during that time led what was equivalent to the mafia of the region, controlling the underground world and laying siege to Silph Co's main HQ. I repeat, his organization laid siege to the headquarters of the regions main corporate giant, and no investigations were made into his whereabouts or his recent activities or even WHO HE WAS?

You could make a case for this 'deconstructing' the common theme of gym leaders being good people and peacekeepers of the region or even Giovanni bribing the officials but then again, Shade is a ghost...or a completely different entity and a remnant from the league and region before it was thrown into disarray by Team Meteor which explains why he's a gym leader. None of us know whether he((It?))actually gained the title through proper means or in a way similarly to Charlotte and stuff by inheriting it. We simply do not have enough knowledge of how people attain the title and position either in this game or any pokemon game really. (In game)Amethyst could have just approached Shade at some point in time and added the entity to the league. We don't know and that's part of the mystery around Shade IMO.

I am italian, I see mafia people obtaining positions of authority (governor of a region, mayor of a big city, leader of a nation-wide company) every day. So sorry, but you made the Giovanni example with the wrong guy.

Concerning the kids, you are not addressing my point, but rather a small portion of it (not that I am surprised, you do that all the time when we debate Se7en stuff, too). I never said that I have a problem with their age. I did say that I have a problem with the fact that they are locked up in an orphanage, and not only is it openly established by the game that they are forbidden from having any contact with the outside, it is also established that, when a gym leader is no longer eligible for their role, the reserve gym leader gets it instead. Maybe I am being overly nitpicky, but "being locked up in an orphanage with no contacts with the outside" sounds like a strong case for being "no longer eligible" to me. So even if Charlotte got her gym by being her mother's substitute, I'd still expect HER OWN substitute to have been named (and to have taken over) by now.

Noel finally manages to have a gym battle, against you, after you break him out: had he remained in the orphanage like he was supposed to do, with his Pokemon taken from him (and, again, NO FRIGGIN' CONTACTS WITH THE OUTSIDE), how was he supposed to have gym battles at all? How was he (and the other kids for that matters) supposed to honor not only the "double responsibility" part of his job, but even the most basic duty that comes with it?

And "Reborn City is screwed up" is not a satisfying answer: that only explains why the kids would be locked up in the orphanage and abused by Sigmund, but it still fails to explain why a system established by this very game, that worked perfectly in other occasions, would not work here. If you want the fact that the system failed, and the kids not only landed the job but actually kept it despite being locked up in an orphanage, to be a plot point, you need a MUCH better explanation for it. Also because, in this screwed up society, Sigmund is actually regarded as a pillar of the community and a brilliant scientist, allowing him to get away with his horrific experiments... Which goes to show just how screwed up Reborn City is, yes, but it also causes another issue: Sigmund is seen stating, in multiple occasions, that the kids have serious disorders and to be unreliable at best and lost causes at worst. To the point that he sees fit to take away their Pokemon from them. Then wouldn't it follow logically that he would also recommend them to be lifted from their positions? And wouldn't his word be trusted on the matter, as part of the whole "Reborn is screwed up" thing?

So yeah, I stand by my earlier points. You say "we still don't know enough", but see it this way: maybe Ame, upon reading discussions like this one, will feel motivated to address the issue in a satisfying manner in future episodes. Isn't that the point of "constructive criticism"?

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Sigmund was actually supposed to let them battle, but he didn't. Noel's gym arena was in the orphanage. If you talk to the machine outside it in E15, Ame says she didn't know Sigmund wasn't allowing battles.

[Azeria]

I am italian, I see mafia people obtaining positions of authority (governor of a region, mayor of a big city, leader of a nation-wide company) every day. So sorry, but you made the Giovanni example with the wrong guy.

Concerning the kids, you are not addressing my point, but rather a small portion of it (not that I am surprised, you do that all the time when we debate Se7en stuff, too). I never said that I have a problem with their age. I did say that I have a problem with the fact that they are locked up in an orphanage, and not only is it openly established by the game that they are forbidden from having any contact with the outside, it is also established that, when a gym leader is no longer eligible for their role, the reserve gym leader gets it instead. Maybe I am being overly nitpicky, but "being locked up in an orphanage with no contacts with the outside" sounds like a strong case for being "no longer eligible" to me. So even if Charlotte got her gym by being her mother's substitute, I'd still expect HER OWN substitute to have been named (and to have taken over) by now.

Noel finally manages to have a gym battle, against you, after you break him out: had he remained in the orphanage like he was supposed to do, with his Pokemon taken from him (and, again, NO FRIGGIN' CONTACTS WITH THE OUTSIDE), how was he supposed to have gym battles at all? How was he (and the other kids for that matters) supposed to honor not only the "double responsibility" part of his job, but even the most basic duty that comes with it?

And "Reborn City is screwed up" is not a satisfying answer: that only explains why the kids would be locked up in the orphanage and abused by Sigmund, but it still fails to explain why a system established by this very game, that worked perfectly in other occasions, would not work here. If you want the fact that the system failed, and the kids not only landed the job but actually kept it despite being locked up in an orphanage, to be a plot point, you need a MUCH better explanation for it. Also because, in this screwed up society, Sigmund is actually regarded as a pillar of the community and a brilliant scientist, allowing him to get away with his horrific experiments... Which goes to show just how screwed up Reborn City is, yes, but it also causes another issue: Sigmund is seen stating, in multiple occasions, that the kids have serious disorders and to be unreliable at best and lost causes at worst. To the point that he sees fit to take away their Pokemon from them. Then wouldn't it follow logically that he would also recommend them to be lifted from their positions? And wouldn't his word be trusted on the matter, as part of the whole "Reborn is screwed up" thing?

So yeah, I stand by my earlier points. You say "we still don't know enough", but see it this way: maybe Ame, upon reading discussions like this one, will feel motivated to address the issue in a satisfying manner in future episodes. Isn't that the point of "constructive criticism"?

Probably lol. This is still a fact however; Giovanni abandoned his gym for over a decade and no replacements where given so why should there be replacements for Charlotte/Anna/Noel? Though in the games he abandons the gym again, permanently after the player defeats him leading me to think he didn't abdicate the position when he vanished for the first time, instead taking an extended leave of sorts.

On the part where they should have gotten a replacement leader while they were in the orphanage, while I agree with you on that, where would they get one of those? The only other fire trainer in the region is Cal and he WAS the leader of Fire Gym actually until shortly before the beginning of the events in the game where he resigned. Heck, I think this is the main reason Charlotte still commands the gym;the replacement leader for HER retired around the period of time the game takes place in or slightly prior to that. On wards to Noel; same principle applies here except the only other normal type only trainer specifically in the game is El and he can't take the spot because he's already a member of the Elite Four.

This leaves no one else from the old league to take this spot specifically and while it'd make sense for a replacement to be found, there's no one with the qualifications or the skills needed for this and considering all the terrorist attacks around reborn city going around, I doubt replacement leaders could be found very easily;and even then remember that El is a member of the Elite Four and thus has SOME form of power deciding on who's in the league as shown by how he or someone in league with him, got Laura kicked out of the Elite Four, and considering he's aligned with Team Meteor, I'd imagine he'd try to weaken the league itself as much as possible and it would be within Team Meteor's best interests to lower the amount of the gym leaders available to the league.

This is quite honestly the only way I could think of them not having their replacements appointed. Do take in mind that this is purely me theorizing here so uh, take it with a grain of salt.

Edit: Also what ICSW said lol.