Tomas Elliot presents: a return to Ubers, with a rant

[Tomas Elliot]

Greetings. I just returned to Bologna and I don't seem to be able to get some sleep (I have been under a lot of pressure lately, you know), so here I am, posting yet another RMT: having learned the marvels of the ignore list, I am rather confident that what happened last time won't repeat itself, and there is also the fact that this team has been rather succesful, bringing me in the high 1500s - low 1600s (I doubt I will be laddering any higher than that, what with exams coming up) in a matter of a couple of days. I am posting it mainly at Ody's insistence although, I have to admit, I had been indulging in the idea myself because well, I am having quite a lot of fun with this team, and for a guy like me, a declared hater of all things ORAS, to actually manage to have fun in the tier that was possibly impacted the most by the wave of brokeness those games brought, that must mean something. This does not mean that I will not rant about Primal Groudon, because I will.

But enough with the idle chit-chat, and let's move onto the actual team.

AT A GLANCE

Well this is the one section I could have avoided including: all Ubers teams look more or less the same at a glance nowadays. The one thing that might set this team apart, when compared to the many teams out there that are build around similar concepts, is something you cannot see at a glance: namely, the fact that there are 5 priority moves in this team (Fake Out, Sucker Punch, Extremespeed, and two instances of Shadow Sneak). The reason can be found in that theory of mine I explained in the past: I find that nowadays, setting up is not as advantageous as it used to be, simply because all the brutal wallbreakers there are out there can accomplish what a set-up sweeper can accomplish, but in less turns. However, when you apply this theory to Ubers, you soon find a flaw in it: there are so many things with immense stats in this tier, that scoring OHKOs regularly is MUCH harder than it is in OU. Your brutal wallbreakers will manage to bring most bulky threats in the low yellow or red area, but they won't be able to kill them outright: all the priority moves are therefore used to finish off the opponents once they have been worn down this way.

So yeah, that's more or less how the team plays: if you want, you can check out these replays to get a clearer idea (the third one isn't very significant, but it IS the very latest battle I've had with this team):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-323712296

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-324869984

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-324894260

And now for the sets in detail:

IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS

@ Choice Scarf

Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 60 Atk / 228 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild Nature
- Moonblast
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Sleep Talk

I have said multiple times that I find setting up to be not as advantageous as it used to be. And there is also the fact that I am not a fan of one-trick ponies (namely, Power Herb). So when I decided to make an Uber team, I immediately knew I'd be building around non-Geomancy Xerneas. With 220 EVs and a Scarf, Xerneas is always guaranteed to outspeed +1 Rayquaza (or at least, so claims Smogon), which is really all I need this guy to outspeed. 60 EVs are therefore tossed into Atk to increase the damage output of the physical moves I carry for coverage, which deal surprising amounts of damage if the opponent doesn't see them coming. With 228 SpAtk EVs, a Mild nature increases dramatically the damage output of Moonblast (which is the move I use in 99% of cases anyway) while boosting Genesect's Atk (the bug's only physical moves are Iron Head, U-turn and E-speed, and I have solid outs to each of those, so I WANT to be sure that it will indeed use one of them). Megahorn and Rock Slide were both suggested by Sonikku, whom I thanks for this set: the former is an extra chance to roll something that is supereffective on Darkrai when using Sleep Talk against it, and can also smack Psychic-type threats like Mewtwo Y. The latter is to take down Ho-oh, and can prove useful against other fliers as well.

@ Make a wild guess
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

After choosing Xerneas as the first Pokemon to build around, I decided to pair it up with Mega Kangaskhan. The fact is that with this set, Kanga is great at wearing down all sorts of opponents, bringing them within kill range for Xerneas to finish them off. Having two different priority moves makes this Pokemon the ideal revenge killer, however you must be careful against Pokemon that carry Dragon Dance and/or E-speed (and there are quite a few of those in Ubers), because Sucker Punch is easily baited. It is not the easiest Pokemon to use, but it is great at what it does, I.E. softening walls, and its contribution to the team is more often than not invaluable.

@ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor

Originally I had added Rayquaza to use the infamous Air Lock + Surf trick, in order to troll Primal Groudon. Then I realized that, as part of that mentality I explained before, E-speed was too important to sacrifice, spacially considering that Surf was essentially a single-use move (I'd NEVER use it against anything other than Groudon). I therefore decided to tweak the set into what you see now: this way, the physical moves still do insane amounts of damage (particularly the insane Dragon Ascent), while Draco Meteor is boosted just enough to significantly cripple (or kill outright, depending on the set and the previous damage) Primal Groudon, to a point where I can consider this guy a reasonable check to the monster, without having to carry Surf. More often than not, this is the one Pokemon that ends up doing most of the killing.
@ Griseous Orb

Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 Atk / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Shadow Force
- Shadow Sneak
- Dragon Tail

Giratina-O is probably my fav legendary. Maybe it's the design, maybe it's the unique typing, maybe it's the fact that its HP stat is so high, I can afford investing in Atk AND Def, avoiding the kill from +2 Arceus' Shadow Claw. But I really really like the guy. Shadow Force is the main STAB that is helpful in many different situations with its turn of invincibility, Shadow Sneak is for prio and D-Tail is for phazing. Defog is Defog, although sometimes I kinda miss WoW. It's hard deciding between the two.
@ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Toxic
- King's Shield

If in Gen 5 they had told me I'd one day make an Ubers team with two Ghost-type Pokemon, I would have laughed. Having two Pokemon of the same type in a team was a very bad idea back then (unless it was Dragon which was just too OP), and Ghost definitely wasn't one of the best types around anyway. In Gen 6 a lot has changed, and now here we are: Aegislash is a fantastic Pokemon to have in Ubers, being able to switch into most special attackers of the tier (most importantly Xerneas), and providing a unique asset in King's Shield. Gyro Ball kills Xerneas, Shadow Sneak finishes off weakened enemies, and Toxic trolls Primal Groudon as it switches in.
@ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Lava Plume

And to think, Gen 3 legendaries used to be the ones I liked the most, and by a wide margin, before ORAS came around and introduced us to the horrors of Primal Reversion. With massive bulk on both sides, massive offensive stats on both sides even uninvested, and an ability that cancels one of its only two weaknesses, Groudon is pretty much the game-defining Pokemon of Ubers. So much so in fact that you can divide Ubers teams into two groups: those that suck for not using Primal Groudon, and those that suck for not being adequately prepared against it. But the question is: how do you prepare for this thing, considering that Kyogre, the Pokemon that used to overshadow Groudon, has had the tables turned on itself come ORAS?
Scratch that, the real question is: WHY GAMEFREAK? Why did you have to go out of your way to turn an already pretty powerful Pokemon into a flustercuck of brokeness, only surpassed by Mega Rayquaza?
I want to go on record and declare that I absolutely loathe this Pokemon, as it represents the path the company is leading this franchise into. A path I detest with every fiber of my being. But as they say: if you can't defeat them, ally with them.
Like it or not, Groudon is THE defining force of the tier and, as such, it is virtually impossible not to include it in a team, simply because you are not given any possible reason for even considering something else in its stead. So like it or not, this is the backbone every team needs.

Well, this is all. As usual, feel free to discuss, comment and give feedback, but please try and make constructive posts. If you want to try the team for yourself, here is the importable:

Xerneas @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 60 Atk / 228 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild Nature
- Moonblast
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Sleep Talk

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 Atk / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Shadow Force
- Shadow Sneak
- Dragon Tail

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Lava Plume

[Sonikku]

It's a very solid team, but is extremely weak to Ho-Oh, and pretty weak to Darkrai. You might want to give Xerneas Rock Slide over Grass Knot, because Grass Knot doesn't really work as well as Low Kick does in Ubers.

Something like this would patch up those weaknesses.

Xerneas @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Fairy Aura

EVs: 60 Atk / 228 SpA / 220 Spe

Naive Nature

- Moonblast

- Megahorn

- Rock Slide

- Sleep Talk

OR

Darkraipellent (Xerneas) @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Fairy Aura

EVs: 60 Atk / 228 SpA / 220 Spe

Naive Nature

- Moonblast

- Megahorn

- Close Combat

- Sleep Talk

Megahorn allows you to nail Darkrai without having to lower your defenses, as well as allowing you to smash Psychic types like Mega-Mewtwo Y. The second set can help you to completely beat Darkrai.

Your team is also very weak to Primal Groudon.

Try this on Rayquaza.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 8 HP / 156 Atk / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Aqua Tail

This set makes dealing with Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon much, much easier. Personally, this is my favorite set fir Rayquaza. You can destroy one of the great walls like Giratina, nail Aegislash and other steels with Earthquake, and you have the very useful E-Speed. Aqua Tail lets you ohko Primal Groudon easily. The fire coverage with V-Create isn't really necessary, as fire coverage is less needed in Ubers unlike in OU.

Hope this helps! :]

[Tomas Elliot]

Cool things concerning Xerneas, not as cool things concerning Rayquaza.

Frankly, I have never felt threatened by Ho-oh. It is slower than both of my physical attackers, and its Def is not that great, so it is easily worn out. The only think it can do against Giratina is hope to burn with Sacred Fire (which is admittedly a very real danger), and I use fully defensive Groudon, so even with EQ Ho-oh should not be able to get past the beast (meaning that I can set SR and roar it out, which will make it MUCH easier to kill next time it comes in).

This being said, you are right in saying that my set for Xerneas is not optimal: I will test both of your sets and see which works the best.

As far as Rayquaza goes, I am sorry but I would NEVER consider running it without Dragon Ascent. The sheer brutality of that move and the fact that not many Pokemon in Ubers actually resist it makes it just that important to run. Remember, my strategy revolves mainly around wearing opponents down: Dragon Ascent is pretty much guaranteed to kill anything that is below 80% health and doesn't resist it, so yeah, between that and the only-for-Groudon Aqua Tail, I have no doubts.

Which leaves us with the eternal debate between EQ and V-Create: the former has better coverage and is not trolled by King's Shield, the latter is more powerful and can beat the occasional Ferrothorn/Skarmory. I will be the first to admit that those two falls aren't NEARLY as common in Ubers as they used to be last gen (again, blame Primal Groudon for that) but... Yeah, I'd rather have more than one Fire move in the team just in case. Although your point in favor of EQ is equally valid, I am not denying that, so I might try switching around the two moves and seeing how it goes.

This is all. Thanks for the Xerneas' sets, I had honestly forgotten about Megahorn, I instantly went for CC because of Dialga and Steel Arceus, but well, I do have outs to those, so maybe the Moonblast-Megahorn-Rock Slide set could be the best one.

[Follow]

Cool team you got here. I honestly don't play ubers that much, but here are my thoughts.

I think life orb yveltal and primal kyogre are pretty threatening to this team, especially since your groudon has no spdef investment, which means that it takes a lot of damage from ice beams. Yveltal can get free switch-ins when you want to scout for something with aegislash or when you kill your momentum by defogging with giratina, then it proceeds to hit something with dark pulse. Xerneas doesn't take dark aura dpulses that well and when your opponent decides to expect xern and oblivion wing in the next switch-in you have a dead xern (or a xern in range of sucker punch that only has attacking moves). I also agree that ho-oh is decently threatening due to regenerator and free switch-ins against aegislash/primal groudon since you don't pack rock coverage. Mega salamence is scary.

With that in mind I'd suggest a shuca berry tyranitar over aegislash and a new EV spread for primal groudon. Ttar checks yveltal, mega mence and ho-oh, while also providing a way to weaken ekiller for you to revenge kill it with priority/primal groudon. The EV spread for pdon helps you check xerneas (with this EV spread to survive a +2 focus blast and multiple priority everywhere I wouldn't call this a xerneas weak team after replacing aegislash) and avoids the 2HKO from a primal kyogre's ice beam.

I also think stall looks a bit annoying but if you play rayquaza correctly and keep rocks up for lugia it should be an easy win for you.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb

Ability: Desolate Land

EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD

Relaxed Nature

- Roar

- Stealth Rock

- Earthquake

- Lava Plume

Tyranitar @ Shuca Berry

Ability: Sand Stream

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD

Careful Nature

- Low Kick

- Stone Edge

- Pursuit

- Thunder Wave

Hope I helped man, good luck.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Follow

[Sonikku]

Frankly, I have never felt threatened by Ho-oh. It is slower than both of my physical attackers, and its Def is not that great, so it is easily worn out. The only think it can do against Giratina is hope to burn with Sacred Fire (which is admittedly a very real danger), and I use fully defensive Groudon, so even with EQ Ho-oh should not be able to get past the beast (meaning that I can set SR and roar it out, which will make it MUCH easier to kill next time it comes in).

This being said, you are right in saying that my set for Xerneas is not optimal: I will test both of your sets and see which works the best.

As far as Rayquaza goes, I am sorry but I would NEVER consider running it without Dragon Ascent. The sheer brutality of that move and the fact that not many Pokemon in Ubers actually resist it makes it just that important to run. Remember, my strategy revolves mainly around wearing opponents down: Dragon Ascent is pretty much guaranteed to kill anything that is below 80% health and doesn't resist it, so yeah, between that and the only-for-Groudon Aqua Tail, I have no doubts.

Which leaves us with the eternal debate between EQ and V-Create: the former has better coverage and is not trolled by King's Shield, the latter is more powerful and can beat the occasional Ferrothorn/Skarmory. I will be the first to admit that those two falls aren't NEARLY as common in Ubers as they used to be last gen (again, blame Primal Groudon for that) but... Yeah, I'd rather have more than one Fire move in the team just in case. Although your point in favor of EQ is equally valid, I am not denying that, so I might try switching around the two moves and seeing how it goes.

And that's just it. You shouldn't rely on one pokemon (Groudon) (Or specific circumstances like lower health) to be your check to another pokemon, (Ho-Oh) when the rest of your team suffers against it. If that pokemon isn't available. It's all over. Same goes for what you said about Dragon Ascent. You can't assume a pokemon like Ho-Oh will be at 80% or lower. It does get Regenerator and has beautiful defensive stats. (Mainly sdef but defense isn't horrible) Besides, Choice Band Earthquake Ho-Oh can really dent a Primal Groudon. I recommend using Spdef Primal Groudon, since it's the best special wall in the game.

It's up to you if you want EQ or V-Create. I believe fire coverage isn't a necessity in Ubers, although useful. Also that Eq would help with Aegislash, etc.

[Tomas Elliot]

My time is very limited, so I will make just a quick post with the main points I wanted to bring up. I hope this addresses everything that has been said, if it doesn't well, cut me some slack. University is a cruel mistress this time of the year, you know.

1) As expected, the Moonblast-Megahorn-Rock Slide set for Xerneas that Sonikku suggested turns out to be the superior one. I am editing the OP with it.

2) Aegislash is way too important for me to ever consider removing it. Particularly when you consider that the suggested alternative is weak to Fairy and I already have two such weaknesses. I am sorry, but I am not so foolish as to consider venturing in Ubers with 3 Pokemon weak to Xerneas and only one able to check it, specially when you consider that the check in question (Groudon) would have, in such a line-up, to take on many other threats that Ttar cannot deal with (Like Mewtwo X) on top of the ones it already has to take on. That would cause way too much pressure to be applied on a single Pokemon, resulting in a less efficent team.

3) I still think you guys are making way too big of a deal of both Ho-oh and Yveltal. In an average ladder session of ten battles, I face the former in six at the very least, and the latter in four or five, and I never have the slightest issue with either, not even if they are together in the same team. Leaving aside strategic considerations, it is a fact that both are weak to rocks, and both are slower than Kanga (with Ho-oh being slower than Rayquaza as well). You could argue that I don't have a "safe switch-in" but firstly, that depends on the move they use (and besides, burn hax nonwithstanding Giratina does count as a reasonably safe switch-in for Ho-oh), and secondly, "safe switch-in" is a concept that has lost a lot of meaning in Gen 6. Besides, Sonikku has not suggested any changes in line-up, only in movesets, so even by agreeing with him the "safe switch-in" issue would still be there. And Ttar is destroyed by Ho-oh's EQ much more handily than Groudon is. So even assuming that this problem was real, you guys are failing to provide a solution.

4) I am still not thrilled at the idea of having one single Fire move in my team. Of course, in most cases that hardly matters, but there are situations in which I miss V-create way too much for my likings. So yeah, I am still iffy about replacing it with EQ, I'll need to test some more before deciding.

For now, I am editing the OP with Sonikku's set for Xerneas. Thanks a lot for that.

[Tomas Elliot]

Update: I have ultimately decided to run EQ on Rayquaza. Also I am testing the set that Follow suggested for Groudon, which I had forgotten to address in my previous post.

And so far I am undefeated in this series of test battles, and my ranking has improved quite a bit as a result. My latest battle (in which I played horridly because it's 1:30 AM and I am sleepy, but I still won, also because once his Groudon and Ho-oh were down, I more or less knew Aegislash was perfectly capable of handling the rest of his team pretty much by itself):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-325773209

[SJMistery]

If you want an extra fire move, try using your own Choice Band Ho-Oh, your team would apreciate the burn support and you said you want to troll GroudonP (look at your set, wich is the stantard one: what can Groudon do against Ho-Oh, exceot phaze him out and hope Regenerator does heal enough to let him switch again in the rocks? try it, he will pull his weight, especially with that excellent defogger in Giratina). It should work wonders in the place of Aegislash, as Ho-Oh is a natural Xerneas counter/(check if he has thunder and a lot of luck)

stantard band:

208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

all groudon will do against Ho-Oh is say "ouch, that hurts" an maybe paralyze it (not like Ho-Oh cares at all)

Edited February 3, 2016 by SJMistery