Pokemon Renaissance League

[Ame_Rosa]

I don't know where to post this...

Anyway...

The Renaissance League

We are here to announce a league that may take sometime to set up, The Renaissance League.

Now to lay some ground rules:

1.We share similar rules with the Redemption League and are inspired by them

2.We know that the Redemption League is going on at the moment, and we will try to not cause conflicts with the Redemption League

3.We are not trying to be better than Dash’s league. They have spent hours of their time to make something to bring the community together and we do not wish to make them feel bad.

4. Our running hours are on Friday to Sunday from 4:30pm-7:00pm EST, with queues at 4:00pm. This is so that people coming from the Redemption League do not have to change their schedules to participate(Unless they have plans)

5. We are using the Brackets System as well, 3 in each Bracket

6.Advancing to the Next Bracket - This is also the same as Redemption, so people are familiar with the system

7.Ban List- The use of Speed Boost Blaziken, as well as any Speed Boost +Swords Dance Combos are banned. The challenger cannot use ANY Legendaries.

8. Staff- Murakumo_Star-Head of the League

TheDW66-Documentation and other minor League related things

*If anyone wishes to join the staff or to become a leader please PM TheDW66 or Ame_Rosa (Murakumo) and tell us which mono you are using then show up to the Reborn Showdown and Challenge TheDW66(Look for DW) or Murakumo(preferred). Steel, Water, Electric, Ghost, Dark, Bug, and Fire types have Been taken already

[Juniper]

4. Our running hours are on Friday to Sunday from 4:30pm-7:00pm EST, with queues at 4:00pm. This is so that people coming from the Redemption League do not have to change their schedules to participate(Unless they have plans)

Isn't this the same time as redemption?

[DashingStorm]

I don't know where to post this...

Anyway...

The Renaissance League

We are here to announce a league that may take sometime to set up, The Renaissance League.

Now to lay some ground rules:

1.We share similar rules with the Redemption League and are inspired by them

2.We know that the Redemption League is going on at the moment, and we will try to not cause conflicts with the Redemption League

3.We are not trying to be better than Dash’s league. They have spent hours of their time to make something to bring the community together and we do not wish to make them feel bad.

4. Our running hours are on Friday to Sunday from 4:30pm-7:00pm EST, with queues at 4:00pm. This is so that people coming from the Redemption League do not have to change their schedules to participate(Unless they have plans)

5. We are using the Brackets System as well, 3 in each Bracket

6.Advancing to the Next Bracket - This is also the same as Redemption, so people are familiar with the system

7.Ban List- The use of Speed Boost Blaziken, as well as any Speed Boost +Swords Dance Combos are banned. The challenger cannot use ANY Legendaries.

8. Staff- Murakumo_Star-Head of the League

TheDW66-Documentation and other minor League related things

*If anyone wishes to join the staff or to become a leader please PM TheDW66 or Ame_Rosa (Murakumo) and tell us which mono you are using then show up to the Reborn Showdown and Challenge TheDW66(Look for DW) or Murakumo(preferred). Steel, Water, Electric, Ghost, Dark, Bug, and Fire types have Been taken already

Killing this thread right now.

You are not using OUR system for whatever purposes you might have.

I'm actually offended that you even thought it would be a smart idea to get another League "set up" while we poured I don't even know how many weeks into all of the work we have done for the Redemption League, its characters, the battle/bracket system and all the other small things around the League.

To address your "ground rules" one by one as well:

1.We share similar rules with the Redemption League and are inspired by them

This is hinting at the fact that you have no rules, as you have not set any real ground rules down, which means you're literally copying our rules.

2.We know that the Redemption League is going on at the moment, and we will try to not cause conflicts with the Redemption League

You KNOW our League is ongoing right now, you're a challenger for the League because I know we have your Trainer Card registered, yet you still set up this thread and say you won't try to cause a conflict with us? How wrong you are, because creating this, knowing we're fully operational is about the biggest conflict-starter I can imagine.

3.We are not trying to be better than Dash’s league. They have spent hours of their time to make something to bring the community together and we do not wish to make them feel bad.

Hours? Try about 8 months. 5 months to get the basic things out of the way, 3 months to get people recruited, sprites made and everything else around it before we could even start. I could once again say how upset I am that you're even creating this, but regardless, next point.

4. Our running hours are on Friday to Sunday from 4:30pm-7:00pm EST, with queues at 4:00pm. This is so that people coming from the Redemption League do not have to change their schedules to participate(Unless they have plans)

For starters, these are the exact same times as the Redemption League, the exact same DAYS as the Redemption League and really? This is once again a literal copy/paste of what we do, with queues opening at 4 PM and the League running at 4:30 PM.

5. We are using the Brackets System as well, 3 in each Bracket

Again, that's our system and it's getting really boring to see you literally copy/pasting what we use for your own use.

6.Advancing to the Next Bracket - This is also the same as Redemption, so people are familiar with the system

Oh look, another thing that "is the same as Redemption".

7.Ban List- The use of Speed Boost Blaziken, as well as any Speed Boost +Swords Dance Combos are banned. The challenger cannot use ANY Legendaries.

Hey, that looks familiar as well. Where'd you get this? Oh wait, that's OURS as well!

I could point out the fact that you're a two-man team trying to take on what we do with 11 (29 counting all the Leaders), but I don't think I even need to really go into further detail on that, now do I?

I have enough reason to shut this thread down, as it is disrespectful to my staff, the Redemption League's leaders and mostly a huge slap in the face of disrespectfulness to me.

Edit: I've unlocked the thread. Do what you must, but don't interfere with the Redemption League. This does not mean I approve of this whatsoever, mind you. And instead of literally copying what we have set up, be creative and create something of your own instead of copying us.

[Amethyst]

With that said... in various forms... this wouldn't be the first time we've had two concurrent fanleagues in the community, but running them at the same time definitely not does not tend to work out, so before this gets off the ground please go ahead and pick a schedule that doesn't overlap with Redemption's running times.

[IdleThoughts]

Imitation is the best form of flattery, a shame that sometimes through this act of preforming what you believe to be the greatest tribute, it could be construed for the ultimate betrayal. I can see why you would want some consistency between rules throughout both leagues, though... as multiple sets of rules would cause some confusion to certain individuals.

This almost appears as a tribute to Redemption League (which, in turn, was inspired by the famed Reborn League); in the future, ensure you have your idol's blessing before you institute such an undertaking so that your efforts aren't infamous to those you would like to honor.

If you intend to move forward with your proposal, I wish you the best of luck -- though I hope your efforts aren't in vain attempts in superiority, in which case, I would retract this statement.

[NickCrash]

@Dash copying your league is no reason to lock a thread, no matter how upset you feel. You are essentially using your title to shut down competitors. There are more effective ways to deal with such matters. The edit suggests you've already been told.

@Ame_Rosa do not copy. Create something on your own. Before you announce a league, make sure you have one. If you want people to join you, do not be one of the many copies of the original or the one currently most popular. Instead provide them something new, with different rules, format or general system. Naturally some common points cannot be avoided, but even declaring similarities should be avoided. In the end of the day, if you wish to organize another version of an existing league, if you have any respect for their work, do it when it is over and with their permission.

[Tringus]

Well, it's good to see that there is some mercy on this matter, I was just about to discuss, but then I saw this sorted out, it sorta eased my conscience, so I'm pretty reasonable. However, I do have something I want to say, and I hope you can all listen to what I have to say with reason and understanding...

I don't always say too much, but when I do, I try to do it peacefully, but I also try to make a point (As well as talk a lot). What I see is that Redemption is not exactly 100% unique either, as it copied quite a few aspects from the Reborn League itself. Some of these aspects are the 18 badges (Which is fine, because most fangames and fanleagues have the 18 badges these days)... You know what? Let me get the rules, then we'll see what's different and what's not so different.

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/league/rules.html (Reborn's League)

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19605

and

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19285 (These are both Redemption's League)

Take a close look, and see what similarities and differences there are. I bet there are, at least, one-five things that were sampled (A more appropriate word, I suppose) from the Reborn League. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just what I see.

What I see from this is that think that you're misusing your powers of authority, to an extent that you locked a thread due to personal issues, when authority doesn't even have the right to do that to begin with. Ame-Rosa did not infringe any rules, so the thread shouldn't have been locked to begin with unless rules were actually infringed or if the creator of the thread decided to do so themselves.

With the persona you're in your message, I can see that some of your staff members may not be getting the right treatment in the possible future. Callously perhaps. If you do treat your staff members and co-workers (In your case, other authority members) with respect, then everybody else deserves respect too.

"People have gotta show the appropriate levels of respect. When you show respect, you can expect to be respected back." That's just my twist on a familiar quote I've heard a long time ago. I'm not sure if it relates to this, but it feels like it, so bear with me on that.

Now I know you might still be upset about the whole thing, Dash, and that's okay. If a work of art (such as a project I'm working on) was taken from me, I'd be pretty steamed too. But just misusing your power as the creator of the Redemption League and as an auth isn't the way to handle anything. I'm sorry if all of this sounded kinda harsh, but I guess I just needed to get what I had to say out of my chest. I hope you listen to these words of mine with not anger, but with reason and understanding.

I'd like to thank you all for listening and understanding (And even if you guys didn't want to hear what I had to say, that's fine too, you're forgiven. :>), and I hope you all have a good day and/or goodnight.

[Joker]

To be fair, Redemption is almost EXACTLY like Reborn league was. Hell, the only real differences are the running time, the banning of Speed Boost Blaziken, and the fact there are 18 leaders plus the champion. Other than that, it's the same formula. However, the times do conflict with one another. So I'd suggest tweaking that some.

[Ame_Rosa]

Thank you, bassed Amethyst for this second chance to live...

Anyway... New Rules as of now, this will be most likely edited a lot of times

Leader Rules were taken from advice given by Entreflores:

All leaders are allowed OU-Level Megas

B.6 gains access to Ubers Megas

B.5 and up get OU-Legal Legendaries, with the Champ having access to Ubers Level Ones

Banlist for leaders:Still being worked on currently

Banlist for Challengers: Also being worked on, we will most likely make a poll to help with that, or survey random people

Challenger Rules:Being Decided

Schedule/Times:Working on that, as Statistics will be employed for that

Permissions:Aka the last thing we do, and the most important one

Staff:A few people currently, Anyone who wants to help, can shoot us a PM, telling you want you can provide, like Making Trainer Cards,Helping with the Rules, etc.

Now as an update to everyone reading this that would like to be a leader the Available Leaders are Ice, Grass,Rock,Normal,Ground,Fighting,Flying, and Poison, and depending on type, You must be ok with RPing as a female (For any male applicants), which we will notify you on the Showdown Server. We also have Brackets and Ace, and Leader Names set up already, Brackets will most likely be updated depending on performance during practice.

Thank you for your attention.

[pbood2]

I agree a lot with what Trevore and other posters were saying about misuse of authority to be honest as well Redemption League most likely reusing a lot of what Reborn League had in it's peak time to make sure Redemption would succeed and that's fine to do with permission but then you can't go around blaming others for doing the same thing. You can't just lock a thread because you feel like it and have personal reasons for doing so. It has to be justified and it really just looks like you are doing locking of the thread to eliminate competition (Renaissance league) which is unfair and doesn't make sense because in real life there will be competition and thus you can't get rid of them (unless you're a monster and drive them out).

I agree with mostly everyone who has posted that Renaissance League should try to do some creative applications/ideas of their own to make the league their own and that you should change the timing of battle availability so it's not the exact same as Redemption's. If they don't change and just do what Redemption League is doing, then that should be totally fine because imitation is the greatest flattery like someone above said plus it gives Rebornians more to do (collecting badges and trying to beat more people)

I hope this advice is helpful for both parties and that this works out well with having 2 awesome leagues happening at the same time.

Thanks and have a great night/day.

[Lord Bagel]

All I can say is there will be no need for locking this thread, it will simply die out when no one signs up. Not to be rude but where you guys are comparing redemption to reborn, reborn was not going at the same time as redemption. Minimal work clearly was put into this and if this does somehow manage to get off the ground I hope you feel good being creative and downright stealing the concept and planning of something that was a huge undertaking. I happen to appreciate the work that went into getting a league back into reborn and prefer not to see it disrespected like this.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

I don't really see how making another league is disrespectful, to be honest. To me it seems like that would be like saying that the fangames with 18 gyms, 721 Pokemon and/or field effects are disrespectful to Reborn.

[Tringus]

You know, there WAS going to be a Corona League of sorts (Yes, I do recall that being a thing), and it would have competed with Redemption, had the two not been merged (If I remember correctly). So despite Reborn not going on the same time as Redemption, there would have been another league to do so at one point or another even before all this happened.

[Lord Bagel]

I don't really see how making another league is disrespectful, to be honest. To me it seems like that would be like saying that the fangames with 18 gyms, 721 Pokemon and/or field effects are disrespectful to Reborn.

It's not the league itself that's disrespectful, what I find disrespectful is trying to pass off someones hard work off as your own. This topic for the most part is "Hi I made a thing, it runs like redemption, has the same rules as redemption, is inspired by redemption, is the same time as redemption, is copy and pasted from redemption, but don't worry guys this is a brand new league so no big deal right dash?" Sorry but I wouldn't accept something like that if I were in that position.

[Tringus]

Yeah... It was a bad impression, wasn't it? Well that's why we're getting everything changed up so it's not the exact same thing anymore.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Oh, okay. Well Ame Rosa did say they were working on changing the rules and schedules and such.

[Joker]

It's not the league itself that's disrespectful, what I find disrespectful is trying to pass off someones hard work off as your own. This topic for the most part is "Hi I made a thing, it runs like redemption, has the same rules as redemption, is inspired by redemption, is the same time as redemption, is copy and pasted from redemption, but don't worry guys this is a brand new league so no big deal right dash?" Sorry but I wouldn't accept something like that if I were in that position.

There's one problem with this. They aren't passing off anyone's work as their own.By your logic Redemption ripped off Reborn league and every other league before it. Redemption was inspired by Reborn league, and if this new league is inspired by Redemption... what's the issue? It isn't running yet, and it probably won't until Redemption is over. But jesus christ, some of you are acting like Redemption was the first league to come to this community. It's not original, stop acting like it is.

Listen up, runners of this new upcoming league. My advice to you, as a lowly ace member, is to focus on the groundwork for this thing if you're serious about it. Wait for Redemption to end and use the time its running to polish up. I'll at least agree that you should have waited, and it seems like this was made on a whim. However, that doesn't warrant the reaction you have gotten.

Honestly, this is a real drag. Redemption is great, really. It's a fun experience, and I understand that a lot of work was put into it. I know the main issue was this being put up while Redemption is still fresh. But NOTHING has happened yet, they only mentioned plans. If people want to start their own league, and are willing to make it happen and put forth the work to do it, then let them. No one dumped on you about copying Reborn league, or that other league, or that other league when Redemption was announced. Don't get so high and mighty.

[mde2001]

You know, there WAS going to be a Corona League of sorts (Yes, I do recall that being a thing), and it would have competed with Redemption, had the two not been merged (If I remember correctly). So despite Reborn not going on the same time as Redemption, there would have been another league to do so at one point or another even before all this happened.

Just putting some things out there as the guy who did all of the Corona league announcements and was half of the management team.

The reason why we were contacted by the people running redemption in the first place after that league announcement is that they wouldn't have put out their league while ours was still running. They believed that it would be wrong for them to announce a new league when there was already one running and it would be disrespectful towards Nova and my efforts.

So they decided to come and ask us about how we felt about joining their league team instead, which had been being planned without either of our knowledge. Nova and I made the decision to shut it down because we felt like we didn't want to hurt a league that had had so much effort put into it already.

Dash could have locked my Corona league thread then but he didn't. He appealed to us to join him but knew that given that we had made an announcement first, he didn't have the right shut us down forcefully.

I'm not here to comment on Dash's decision to lock the thread. Honestly, the locking and unlocking is none of us non-auths business. I assume it has been discussed between them and they've come up with their decision. But I will say that Dash just believes that two leagues running at the same time is a bad idea in general and wouldn't have announced the Redemption league during the Corona league's run.

[Deleted User]

"Failing to plan is planning to fail."

Part of the reason the Redemption League is as successful as it's been is that before it hit the mainstream a huge part of the groundwork had been laid out. It would appear that you made this decision on a whim and your presentation is just something you wrote down on a napkin. You didn't put much thought into it or consider many things that still need to be looked at. That said, best of luck to you.

[Commander]

First, I think I'll be the one honest here in saying that this has turned from a league idea into a bash dash for doing something beyond the bounds of their power. When I saw this locked, I knew that this wasn't going to end well. Yes, it was wrong to lock this and we should move on from that. If you want to discuss this to someone, let it be to the other mods about how you feel. It's done and over with.

There is one thing I want to clear up:

You are not using OUR system for whatever purposes you might have.

Being a writer, I do know of one good reason to lock a thread in this situation. If there is an act of plagiarism, you will get your topic locked. It's not something that's normally discussed, but it is something that is a very foggy area. Generally, writers such as myself use the copy and paste rule to determine whether or not somebody is stealing another's hard work and claiming it for themselves. Did this league do that? Yes and no. I could see a small reason to lock this but...

That'd be one big piece of hypocrisy considering what the site is called. Technically, Game Freak is what set the system with the original Pokemon League, Reborn refined it to make it more of a challenge, and then Redemption became a league based off of that. You can't say Reborn and Redemption are the same thing and it'd be a very difficult claim to say that this is the same the as the Redemption league. While it looks similar to the Redemption League, it's not the same thing. That's what it boils down to due to this all being related to Pokemon and GF/Nintendo have more say in it than any of us ever would (thankfully they don't bother us though).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that whole issue is out of the way, I feel Ame_Rosa has a complete right to request all the comments discussing the whole thing to be deleted, mine included as it just makes this look even worse. I doubt it was their intention of making this into a discussion. I would give advice, but I would prefer if you were a bit more clear on what this league is and what its current stage is at to give people a better idea.

[Chase]

Alright, I guess I'll chime in on this dust-up - what's done is done, but I want to address both parties because I know all about helping run a similar project and I know about all the feelings involved with both parties.

To Ame_Rose,

I hope you do excuse Dash's reaction as happenstance and spur of the moment. He is truly a wonderful person and with regards to Redemption, has, along with the rest of his team, worked very hard to ensure it's as entertaining and successful as possible. It's a natural reaction to snap when having multiple hours of effort apparently stolen point for point - and as Redemption's headman, he acted in a manner to protect his project from plagiarism and from the resulting competition both leagues would incite if running concurrently.

I find it very endearing that you were inspired from his efforts - as I feel he should too. Having someone mimic your work is a sign that your work has been fruitful. I feel like you took all of the necessary precautions you needed in the original post to give Dash, his team, and his project due credit and admiration as well. That needs to be pointed out because there is no reason the two of you should have bad blood over this incident if one party was following the other out of appreciation due to their abundance - and I personally hope that should you come to a snag, that Dash -can- be a resource to you should you need help - granted you ASK first.

Ponyboy,

I imagine the argument's already been had so I won't dig up skeletons. I want to affirm partial justification in your reaction (not including the way you chose to do so!) as this is a project you do care about. I also urge you to let the instance go under the bridge. Part of your -other- position here is to help Reborn's members - and you have the wonderful opportunity to continue to be a positive part of this user's experience. If you aren't fit to serve, you aren't fit to lead. The good thing about service however, is it helps build a better report for yourself and provides better problem solving opportunities in the future. My friend - I appreciate your fervor for the things you work hard at, as well as said hard work. Keep being a fantastic member of this community - and look around to see the fruits of your efforts.

[Exalted]

Ok so as i see it nothing wrong with there being a new league nor when it happens or so on what i think needs a little fixing is the rules and definitely the timing no you cannot say this is a copy paste of redemption league rules and just have a league and timing and so on and that is an issue that needs to be fixed i get how dash feels and tbh i kinda cant blame the guy there was alot of work put in to the redemption league and anyone would be mad to say the least i haven't got a full chance to participate but i have seen it work and observed no mater a league come up the redemption league is here and its here to stay so everyone stay calm.

As for ame rosa before posting of the league i recommend you start over and recruit some more people and instead of being exactly like redemption start small 8 gyms E4 champ a standard league now decide some managers and along side them decide new rules from scrap its fine to take some inspiration from redemption like the pokemon and stuff so on but dont just copy paste it as for timing you have to change that thats a must cause frankly this league wont survive long if you compete with and already developed league so for now start small and think this through it needs to be organized and doing it alone very hard if you want help on a timing schedule i say first collect all leaders see which time can they battle and host the league and even if its a time you cant be online that can also be manged

so in easy words start over and put a few weeks just before a full on announcement and people will help just ask but work with patience and planning,

Edited February 4, 2016 by NovaKnight

[Xiri]

Okay, I'll put my two cents on this issue. Please excuse any typos because I'm typing this on mobile.

As part of the Redemption League staff, to be honest, I was actually not too happy with how this new league suddenly appeared out of the blue. It's not because I was fearing how we were facing competition, but it was solely due to the fact that this seemed to be announced without any sort of preparation at all. We spent a good amount of time (aka 8 months or so) preparing all the necessary requirements so that we could launch successfully - including rules, sprites, badge design, characterisation, leader selection etc. It was when everything was finalized that we announced the presence of our League. Sure, we did face some problems along the way - but things went relatively smoothly because we were well-prepared.

The thing that bothers me the most about this new league is that I don't see any effort to distinguish this League from ours. Sure, system-wise, it can be difficult to come up with a new method to challenge, but I feel like the system is exactly like how we run our league. Some can argue that our system is similar to Reborn's, but if I recall correctly, there are some differences and we made sure we weren't copying the Reborn League entirely.

Tl;dr I'm happy to support the new league as long as it is not a complete replica of ours. You'll need new trainer card formats, new badge designs, new recruits etc. Organizing the league is very difficult and time-consuming - and I assure you, it will be very tough to manage this with only a few people. I wish you luck.

[Darvan Korematsu]

Well...might as well tend to the embers while they're still hot. Like Xiri, I am one of your Redemption League staff members. While I'll agree with most of the points made so far, I'm gonna back my fellow staff members who have posted on here so far. In all honesty, Dash went absolutely bat-shit bananas over this when it first formed. The rest of us ranged from meh to unhappy about it. I was one of the "meh" people.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with such a League functioning as long as it does not intervene with ours in any way shape or form. But (please correct me if I'm wrong here), when Amethyst anoints Redemption as Reborn's "new official League", of course we are going to think we are the big kids on the block. However there are more problems to it than one would realize.

A. Dash is afraid of someone potentially sullying our already shaky reputation. We've already had problems in operating the League before, and I'm sure most of you guys have seen it.

B. The people behind it. Dash is not just concerned, but fearful because of one of the members on this "new League's" so-called "team". The one we are not particularly kosher with is a challenger in our League has often made jokes or comments directly and/or indirectly at our female Leaders and made them very uncomfortable and a couple have definitely skirted on breaking Forum Rule #7. If said person were to assist in a new League, we do not want to see what is held in store for the female Leaders of this League.

C. Honestly the amount of effort that was put into this at first was pretty scant in the beginning. What sets us apart is how much time we spent trying to meticulously craft something of our own. I was on the team for 2 months before the League actually took off just figuring out where to place the 18 Leaders as well as us. The amount of sacrifice that went into this League only to have it torn to shreds by Half-Assed Carpentry Inc. is just appalling to us.

But that's not what I think really. That's the reasons I believe Dash isn't so cool with this League. I'm sort of mas o menos about this because we got our thing and you got yours. I say feel free to do whatever. But if you so much as snatch any hard content from our system, in terms of sprites, badges, names, etc. I won't have any problem with you guys getting shut down. But until then, strive to make something unique and make it your own. If it flourishes into something more then go for it.

- Darv K.

[Ice]

You all are complaining way to much seriously not that big a deal at all so chill and let the topic resume cause really you are all off topic. This isnt about Redemption now is it.