My Problems with Alleged Acceptable Discrimination

[mde2001]

People who know me at all generally know that I'm someone who is obsessed with political correctness and social justice issues. My friends have mostly learnt to steer clear of derogatory language around me because I'll always pick up on it

This irritates some of them, and I can kind of see why. I don't have any direct control over them and they believe that they are entitled to say whatever they want. The part that annoys me the most about most of this stuff is that most of them aren't racist, sexist homophobic or discriminatory in any way. They just use derogatory language as part of their vocabulary without thinking of the meaning that they are portraying through their words. When they use gay as an insult or call someone the homophobic word starting with f (that I'm not prepared to type) they aren't trying to be homophobic, but they clearly don't consider the culture of discrimination that they are feeding into.

I got into quite a heated argument with one of my friends the other day who was complaining about not being able to make racist jokes without getting told is was unacceptable. He believed that "comedy has to be relatable. Racism is a big part of society so racist jokes will be funny because people will understand the premise." Now I have a pretty awful sense of humor (the best way to make me laugh is through a science, history or maths joke) but I don't think that because people are aware of a stereotype it makes it funny. He was arguing that there was a double standard in society that stopped him from saying what he wanted. His complaining pissed me off and I tried to explain what I thought of his argument. I told him how pathetic I thought a straight, white male from a rich family complaining about how hard his life was because he couldn't make fun of people over who they are (I'll note here I think anyone complaining about not being allowed to be racist is stupid but it just particularly annoys me when people who never have been or will be discriminated against complain about it). He didn't respond to this well, but I'm getting off topic anyway.

Then when I was talking to a couple of my friends today they expressed the opinion that if people like me who picked people up on racism, homophobia and so on didn't exist that there would be no problems with it. It would just be a bit of society that bothered no-one. I personally think that this is just a stupid opinion. No-one can reasonably say that if everyone just let discrimination go unnoticed everyone would be fine.

No-one can judge the effect their words will have on people around them. Maybe that "harmless" racist joke that someone made in the presence of an Indian kid who was already feeling out of place in a school where racism is acceptable is the thing that will push him or her into feeling completely worthless and killing themselves. Maybe the calling trans people disgusting mental patients pushes the kid who is feeling uncomfortable in their own gender to have to live a life they are unhappy with on fear of being socially rejected. Maybe the acceptance on homophobic slurs will push the gay kid into a deep state of depression and feeling like who they are is worth less than their straight counterpart.

No-one at my school knows that I'm gay. I go to a religious school that doesn't accept its students being openly gay so I stay uninterested in love. I've become strong willed enough not to let the words get to me and confident enough to argue against their discrimination. But I know in the past I wasn't strong enough. In combination with other things that were going on a couple of years ago, having to put up with hearing all of this disgusting stuff at school drove me to the verge of suicide. I felt like who I was would never be accepted by society for who I was and that I was worthless. I can guarantee that I'm not the only person who has ever been in that situation. I'm sure there are countless examples of it.

That is why I don't believe in the concept of socially acceptable bigots. The people who use the language like this without bad intentions aren't thinking of who they might be effecting with their words and the people who complain that they aren't allowed to say anything because of us evil social justice warriors can just find a way to express their humor and thoughts without putting others down.

It is perfectly possible that I am a little too hard line when it comes to ending stuff like this, but I would rather be too harsh on it than be too casual and allow a culture to develop where you can say wherever you want without thinking of people who you could be harming and what the actual meaning of your words are.

Apologies for the long rant.

[Felicity]

see the title made me think you were going to talk about positive discrimination, or whatever the fancy word is nowadays.

If they're taking the piss, they're taking the piss and you're well within your rights to stab them with a verbal spear in response. Then again, when it comes to humour a lot of people enjoy jokes about taboo things. Why do you think toilet humour is so funny as a kid? Cuz no one talked about it. Then it goes on with age and we find other taboos in conversation. Sex, violence and, yes, racial issues.

The main thing I look out for is the spirit of the the conversation. My media teacher has an indian heritage and it shows in his skin colour and facial features. Whilst watching the film "The Help" about black maids & nannys in america he says: "That's my job too. Taking care of white babies." You could probably find something offensive in there. Nobody did because it's not like he actually wanted to offend anyone and we weren't looking to be offended.

[Kurotsune]

I wrote a huge response to this, but I'll refrain from sharing it.

Instead, I'd just like to say that the bit about your school sucks and that I hope measures are taken against it, if not now, then in the future.

[Tacos]

Then when I was talking to a couple of my friends today they expressed the opinion that if people like me who picked people up on racism, homophobia and so on didn't exist that there would be no problems with it. It would just be a bit of society that bothered no-one. I personally think that this is just a stupid opinion. No-one can reasonably say that if everyone just let discrimination go unnoticed everyone would be fine.

Yeah your little buddies there are wrong. The people who cry for social justice against these jokes aren't the only people who have a problem with this. Anyone who doesn't have the strength emotionally to put up with jokes directed towards their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., are going to be hurt, and it's a shame no one realize that. Not to say that they don't have the right to make these jokes. If you make them amongst a group of friends who knows you mean no harm in your words, then I see that as acceptable because it's out of earshot of anyone who could be offended, and everyone knows the lack of ill-will.

Maybe it's because we don't talk much, but I never actually knew you were gay. That's a pretty neat fact. It's unfortunate that your understandable fear of acceptance has kept you from being as open as you might want about it, but I commend you for surviving the tough times and coming out with perhaps a few battle scars, but no fatal wounds. If you need anyone to talk to who's undergone a similar experience, and perhaps you want some advice or something, don't be afraid to shoot me a message.

[Cool Girl]

I understand what you're saying. It bugs me too and I pick up on it. One time, I told one of my friends to stop saying racist jokes and she told it wasn't a big deal. This pissed me off. I told her back that it was a big deal and that people could be offended by these jokes and then she told me to go f*** myself. I am happy to say that I'm no longer friends with her. That being said, it happens so often in my high school that I've just gotten to the point of "meh, who cares" which is bad because you should care and when you see something or hear something wrong, then say something.

[Deleted User]

People who know me at all generally know that I'm someone who is obsessed with political correctness and social justice issues. My friends have mostly learnt to steer clear of derogatory language around me because I'll always pick up on it

I'd say I am as well, but on the other end of the spectrum. Not sure how things are over there in Australia, but here in America the entire media and society has an exorbitant amount of political correctness and social justice warriors. It's got to the point where people are shunned for speaking their mind on matters, even if they're meant in non discriminatory or hostile ways. One step out of line with how the vocal social norms of absolute forced tolerance of everything and everything and you become public enemy number 1.

This irritates some of them, and I can kind of see why. I don't have any direct control over them and they believe that they are entitled to say whatever they want. The part that annoys me the most about most of this stuff is that most of them aren't racist, sexist homophobic or discriminatory in any way. They just use derogatory language as part of their vocabulary without thinking of the meaning that they are portraying through their words. When they use gay as an insult or call someone the homophobic word starting with f (that I'm not prepared to type) they aren't trying to be homophobic, but they clearly don't consider the culture of discrimination that they are feeding into.

I'll say this, I used to be one of those people, but I've taught myself to not do so during my time here at Reborn. If this is the issue thats bothering you, I don't disagree.

I got into quite a heated argument with one of my friends the other day who was complaining about not being able to make racist jokes without getting told is was unacceptable. He believed that "comedy has to be relatable. Racism is a big part of society so racist jokes will be funny because people will understand the premise." Now I have a pretty awful sense of humor (the best way to make me laugh is through a science, history or maths joke) but I don't think that because people are aware of a stereotype it makes it funny. He was arguing that there was a double standard in society that stopped him from saying what he wanted. His complaining pissed me off and I tried to explain what I thought of his argument. I told him how pathetic I thought a straight, white male from a rich family complaining about how hard his life was because he couldn't make fun of people over who they are (I'll note here I think anyone complaining about not being allowed to be racist is stupid but it just particularly annoys me when people who never have been or will be discriminated against complain about it). He didn't respond to this well, but I'm getting off topic anyway.

It's a double edged sword if you ask me. I do think people should learn to be less sensitive and not take things so seriously in regards to jokes, but at the same time we don't want to have these jokes genuinely reflect how we look at eachother as human beings. There are good and bad people for a multitude of reasons in any kind of group of people you look at. From what you've said his life isn't difficult. He should be able to say as he wants, but if it's genuinely hateful then he should be prepared to be received in the same way from his peers. The problem I have is when the SJW's take something that isn't meant in any sort of hateful way and chastise the person for it. e.g. "I wouldn't date a [insert race here] person." Or something along those lines. They jump to the conclusion that you are racist. Or, "I don't care for the Gay Pride parades." I for one don't go shoving my sexual orientation in other peoples face, is it so bad that I don't want someone else's to be shoved in mine? DISCLAIMER: These are examples, I'm not trying to cause argument here.

Ha the simple fact that I had to say that just goes to shows to me how drastic its become in that regard, at least in the society I've grown up in.

Then when I was talking to a couple of my friends today they expressed the opinion that if people like me who picked people up on racism, homophobia and so on didn't exist that there would be no problems with it. It would just be a bit of society that bothered no-one. I personally think that this is just a stupid opinion. No-one can reasonably say that if everyone just let discrimination go unnoticed everyone would be fine.

It depends on the community. Think about it, the old adage that people are not born with these sort of discriminations is true. But at the same time, every time there is something exclusively white or exclusively black, it just further widens the gap. So long as there isn't a conscious effort to enforce race based policies whether to meet some specific number of minorities or something restricted to only white people or only black people, etc, we will continue to subconsciously reinforce that as a difference rather than us just being humans.

"Stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man, and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man." ~ Morgan Freeman

Yeah these jokes -do- reinforce those boundaries, I hope that we can gradually grow out of them. However, I don't want to have to double and triple think about something I say that's not meant with any sort of ill-will.

No-one can judge the effect their words will have on people around them. Maybe that "harmless" racist joke that someone made in the presence of an Indian kid who was already feeling out of place in a school where racism is acceptable is the thing that will push him or her into feeling completely worthless and killing themselves. Maybe the calling trans people disgusting mental patients pushes the kid who is feeling uncomfortable in their own gender to have to live a life they are unhappy with on fear of being socially rejected. Maybe the acceptance on homophobic slurs will push the gay kid into a deep state of depression and feeling like who they are is worth less than their straight counterpart.

I agree, people shouldn't say such things, but I don't think punishing them or verbally assaulting them for it the right course of action. I myself used to consider transgender individuals to be [insert hateful word here]. That was due to misconceptions though. I used to believe that they were all either extremely angry people who would go around and force themselves to be tolerated by all or hate you for not accepting it, or that they would try to intentionally mislead people, for example, the song 'Funky Cold Medina'. When I came here, I saw that there were in fact rather down to earth and cool transgender people. Long story short you can't force tolerance, but what you can do is show people that their preconceived notions aren't correct.

No-one at my school knows that I'm gay. I go to a religious school that doesn't accept its students being openly gay so I stay uninterested in love. I've become strong willed enough not to let the words get to me and confident enough to argue against their discrimination. But I know in the past I wasn't strong enough. In combination with other things that were going on a couple of years ago, having to put up with hearing all of this disgusting stuff at school drove me to the verge of suicide. I felt like who I was would never be accepted by society for who I was and that I was worthless. I can guarantee that I'm not the only person who has ever been in that situation. I'm sure there are countless examples of it.

Hey, neither did I. While I don't speak for everyone, I don't think any less of you for it. I'm not a fan of religion, there are a multitude of people here who could tell you that. If someone is gay, I'll be their friend provided 2 things. 1. They're a good person. 2. They understand that I am not gay, and that I'm not going to be interested. Lets not confuse that with me assuming all gay individuals would be, that's not at all what I'm trying to imply. So long as these two things check out, cool, hi friend.

That is why I don't believe in the concept of socially acceptable bigots. The people who use the language like this without bad intentions aren't thinking of who they might be effecting with their words and the people who complain that they aren't allowed to say anything because of us evil social justice warriors can just find a way to express their humor and thoughts without putting others down.

It is perfectly possible that I am a little too hard line when it comes to ending stuff like this, but I would rather be too harsh on it than be too casual and allow a culture to develop where you can say wherever you want without thinking of people who you could be harming and what the actual meaning of your words are.

All in all I think after having read all of it, I'd like to summarize my thoughts. If I make a joke in poor taste go ahead and criticize me for it, but if I'm saying something that's honest and also not hateful as some of the examples I listed earlier, I'd appreciate not being chewed out for it. Misrepresenting what has been said to have a reason to attack someone as is often done in the American media is what frustrates me from the other side of the coin.

Apologies for the long rant.

[GottaLoveShuckle]

Personally I heavily value freedom of speech and think people should be free to express even horrific ideas as the best way to demolish those ideas is to draw a light to them and show just how ugly those ideas are. But this isn't even about ideas but about joking which itself shows just how little a lot of people value freedom of speech now. If you can't even joke about ideas then there's no way anyone could hope to seriously express said ideas which shows how dead freedom of speech is. I get why you feel so outraged at this kind of speech as I am bisexual myself and have close family members which are gay who I couldn't respect more but wanting to censor speech because it hurts you is something I simply can't agree with personally. Honestly if someone did hold beliefs I simply couldn't get over I just wouldn't hang out with them, when it comes to joking however... well if its just joking then just shrug it off and don't assume the worst intent in what they mean by what they are saying.

Edited February 5, 2016 by GottaLoveShuckle

[Deleted User]

Personally I heavily value freedom of speech and think people should be free to express even horrific ideas as the best way to demolish those ideas is to draw a light to them and show just how ugly those ideas are. But this isn't even about ideas but about joking which itself shows just how little a lot of people value freedom of speech now. If you can't even joke about ideas then there's no way anyone could hope to seriously express said ideas which shows how dead freedom of speech is. I get why you feel so outraged at this kind of speech as I am bisexual myself and have close family members which are gay who I couldn't respect more but wanting to censor speech because it hurts you is something I simply can't agree with personally. Honestly if someone did hold beliefs I simply couldn't get over I just wouldn't hang out with them, when it comes to joking however... well if its just joking then just shrug it off and don't assume the worst intent in what they mean by what they are saying.

Freedom of speech isn't brought into question right now. Freedom of Speech refers to the freedom to say as you will without punishment from the government, not criticism from your peers. In the cases being presented earlier in this thread, I don't believe anyone was advocating for strict anti hate speech laws.

[Shamitako]

I agree, people shouldn't say such things, but I don't think punishing them or verbally assaulting them for it the right course of action. I myself used to consider transgender individuals to be [insert hateful word here]. That was due to misconceptions though. I used to believe that they were all either extremely angry people who would go around and force themselves to be tolerated by all or hate you for not accepting it, or that they would try to intentionally mislead people, for example, the song 'Funky Cold Medina'. When I came here, I saw that there were in fact rather down to earth and cool transgender people. Long story short you can't force tolerance, but what you can do is show people that their preconceived notions aren't correct.

So I wasn't gonna say anything here, but I just need to note that I had misconceptions identical to these in the past. Some of them not dying off until I'd hung around Reborn for a while

And since I spoke a bit, I'll speak a bit more

I actually have a friend just like the one you described. Someone who clearly has no intent to harm others but still uses derogatory terms as insults and for jokes. I'd prefer it if he didn't, since they do often injure my psyche. But it's not something where I feel the blame belongs to him either. He's not directly trying to be harmful to me, so I don't see much way to fault him for it

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that this is an effect, not a cause. So trying to take it on is a fruitless endeavor

[mde2001]

Yeah, while I'm still not a huge fan of the discriminatory jokes in private areas where there is no chance of someone overhearing it, I find it to be more acceptable than the people who are making them on crowded trains full of people they've never met and no idea what is going on inside the people who surround them's heads.

I still pick up on it everywhere, but in a more firm manner when is public spaces where I believe that it is just completely unreasonable to be assuming everyone will interpret your words as a joke. Some people might not find anything about it funny, some people might miss the first bit of a joke which would completely get rid of the chance of it being funny to anyone.

In terms of the me being gay part, you probably wouldn't have known it before. I've mentioned it in passing a few times I think but I haven't ever really been involved in conversations when it was particularly relevant. I might take you up on your offer at some point Tacos, we'll see. And Jeri, you don't need to worry about those things. I'm not the sort of person who is going to go after someone who I haven't met in real life, who is a fair bit older than me and who is straight. Honestly, at my age, I know I'm gay but I'm not all that interested to being in a relationship with anyone let alone someone with a different sexual orientation. So hi friend

[Chase]

I really -hope- your school isn't one that affirms itself as a Christian school - and if it is - it wouldn't be surprising, but it would be unfortunate.

8 ¹ but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. ² Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. ³ The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst ⁴ they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. ⁵ Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” ⁶ This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. ⁷ And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” ⁸ And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. ⁹ But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. ¹⁰ Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” ¹¹ She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]​ - John 8 1-11 (ESV)

The major point of emphasis with this passage is that Jesus Himself d​​id not discriminate against the adulteress - and due to the same brokenness the rest of humanity has - the Pharisees couldn't bring judgement or contempt upon her either. Regardless on if -you- hold a view that being homosexual as a sin or not - your school might have some sort of outlook that it is - and if it's a C​hristian institution then this precedent - of letting they who have not sinned cast the first stone - should be how they approached it.

​

If that precedent were taking place, I assure you that you wouldn't have to work so hard at demanding justice. As for political correctness - there are many reasons why making everything PC actually harms the liberties of the people here in America, from religious liberty to the power an American citizen holds. I would recommend instead fighting religious based "hate" speech with their own medicine. Contrasting scripture.

[Honchy]

I don't... I don't know what to post. Hope you feel better.

[Shamitako]

As for political correctness - there are many reasons why making everything PC actually harms the liberties of the people here in America, from religious liberty to the power an American citizen holds.

Psst, Mde isn't 'Murican

Or maybe I misread that in which case derp, sorry

[GottaLoveShuckle]

I'm aware no one here is actually advocating for stricter anti speech laws, however I disagree that free speech is irrelevant here. We are talking about whether or not people should be making certain jokes and trying to control what's socially acceptable things to even joke about which is a serious speech issue, what most people would refer to as PC culture which many would say is "ruining comedy".

Edited February 5, 2016 by GottaLoveShuckle

[mde2001]

I'm aware no one here is actually advocating for stricter anti speech laws, however I disagree that free speech is irrelevant here. We are talking about whether or not people should be making certain jokes and trying to control what's socially acceptable things to even joke about which is a serious speech issue, what most people would refer to as PC culture which many would say is "ruining comedy".

In my opinion, the phrase "It's just a joke" and phrases similar can be used to justify almost anything in some people's eyes.

I personally don't see an issue with trying to draw lines of what are socially acceptable things to say, and trying to get people to be politically correct is only ruining comedy that relies on it being acceptable for them to be able to say whatever they want.

A popular joke at my school that really annoys me is (I decided to put it in the spoiler as I really don't want to put things that I consider so wrong into my main post.

"The optimist says the glass is half full, the pessimist says the glass is half empty while the feminist says the glass is raping me"

People were unable to see why I saw huge problems with this and said, oh it's okay we're making fun of women trying to raise awareness about the culture of sexual abuse towards them. While many of the people saying this were actually sexist, there were at least a couple of them who were just saying it because it was a joke without thinking through the meaning of what they were saying, joke or not.

I don't think that political correctness is ruining comedy. There is a lot of really great stuff out there that can make jokes, including one's that are an accurate reflection of society, without needing to rely on the potential marginalization of minority groups in order to get their laughs. I know that that style of comedy is very popular in today's society but honestly I think that is is a bad representation of our modern culture that we are so prepared to put aside what we think it right or wrong just because whoever is saying the thing intends it for comedic purposes.

Of course, I don't expect everyone (including you) to agree with me. It is an issue where there are valid arguments on both sides of the debate, but I personally am firmly in support of people trying to find ways of being humorous without needing to resort to discriminatory slurs and jokes.

[Chase]

No Alexus, you didn't misread - but I definitely could have phrased it better. My point there is that I don't want to live in any area where my speech is forcibly conformed to social norms and causes conflict with personal beliefs and civil liberties.

At the same time, those personal beliefs should never be displayed in acts of hatred or jest. If the Christian viewpoint on the issue is that homosexuality is a sin (which, that's exactly what the view is) - and eve​ryone is a sinner (which again, is indeed the case) - then Jesus' precedent alone dictates that just because we don't struggle with the -same- action doesn't mean we're allowed to employ prejudice. Any believer that does is not being doctrinally sound - and is completely open for being called a bigot.

Since becoming a mod for this great community in the past and meeting with various folks from around the world on the issue, I've come to realize exactly the kind of pain these slurs and jokes can cause. Even before joining this community I remember disciplining myself on using the term "Gay" in appropriate context and in a manner that was respectful to those of that orientation, after it for so long was an adjective to describe unfavorable places, people, and things.

It's not going to stop me from discouraging the act of homosexuality to others due to a belief basis, but it's not going to cause me to care about those people any less - and thanks to the discipline and experiences I've been able to have, I can proudly say I understand homosexual people better because of it - and that they come across as just that. Other people. People just as equally deserving of care and acceptance as I am.

[Shamitako]

A popular joke at my school that really annoys me is (I decided to put it in the spoiler as I really don't want to put things that I consider so wrong into my main post.

"The optimist says the glass is half full, the pessimist says the glass is half empty while the feminist says the glass is raping me"

...Not gonna lie, I lol'd

In fact, I'm not even really ashamed of it. That was well prepared satire and I very much enjoy satire

[Eviora]

What amuses me about this topic is when people get super bent out of shape because they expressed their honest opinion about something and now a bunch of other people are expressing the honest belief that the former opinion is despicable. It goes both ways. These days people are growing increasingly intolerant of unjustified intolerance, and I don't think that's a bad thing!