Praise The Sun... and Moon - Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon

[Red_Chaos]

There better be some damn good gelato if we be going to Italy

also dark/fairy plz make it happen

[Ironbound]

Oh my, Italy based place? Lots of ancient ruins and fine architecture? Villainous team(s) based on the Mafioso? Team Rocket returns in its darkest avatar ever?

Perhaps we can finally get a Steel/Poison type. What with all the poisoning and daggers and the Borgia familial history sort of stuff, it might turn out to be a rusted daggery assassin type thing.

[Spineblade]

Italy would fit with my friend's insistence that the next region will be "South Kalos", but he's also most convinced by the Hawaii thing.

[Masquerain]

Do you guys really want a 3rd team rocket? Team Flare was essentially just another teamrocket with the added "beautiful world" twist :|

I'd much rather have cultist teams or something

But I believe it is getting quite ridiculous how it's been over a month and we know nothing apart that these games exist

[Ironbound]

If you're asking me what I want from a villainous team, I'd say I want something like BW's plot, some organization that made a cogent point (in BW's case, about Poké-ethics, plus the fact that Ghetsis was just using that as a dramatic trope for his own gain just made it all the more heinous) and actually believe that they are justified in doing it. I just hope it won't be too dumbed down like ORAS was, because Archie and Maxie can't really be called villains. Just deluded but good hearted people who didnt realise the stupidity of awakening a titan just for more beach parties and sun tans. They even become your pals by the end of the game. Nor do I want another Cyrus-style megalomaniac who wants to become a God. Only Cyrus can pull that off well.

In any case, the truly heinous villains in the above cases, Cyrus and Ghetsis, as well as Giovanni, all operated alone. Their underliings didn't have a clue about their true intentions, and you can fairly say that Teams Galactic, Plasma and Rocket were all idiots taken in by the boss's charisma, but not actually representative of their leader's goals. Magma and Aqua were one with their bosses' goals, true, but they're all buffoons, the lot of them.

What if the new villains deal with the ethics of competitive battling?

Breeding for IVs and treating mons as mere tools to be bred with a blob repeatedly, and them simply being discarded like a used--erm, you get it. And half the time the poor mons are just newly hatched lv1 babies too. Cruel, inhuman and racist, to be frank.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Viridescent

[Cepheus]

What if the new villains deal with the ethics of competitive battling?

Breeding for IVs and treating mons as mere tools to be bred with a blob repeatedly, and them simply being discarded like a used--erm, you get it. And half the time the poor mons are just newly hatched lv1 babies too. Cruel, inhuman and racist, to be frank.

If that was the case...

I'd want to join them!

Make it happen, give me the option to and I'll join them in a heartbeat!

I always thougt of Pokemon as my friends and partners... since that is what the anime and games have taught me... but still both media show one end of that partnership abusing it in using the other one to fight for him, deliberatly getting it hurt for their own entertainment!

On any occassion it popped up here on the forum - the mention of a "What if you would actually live in the Pokemon world"-scenario, I was always on the side of travelling, playing, caring for my Pokemon and no Battling - because I wouldn't want my cute, cuddly, fluffy Eevee pal to get hurt!

I want to play and cuddle with it and not constantly running into an emergency hospital with it, to get its wound treated which it got because I sent it out fighting other trainers pokemon... In self defense against WILD Pokemon I could understand battling, but other trainers - NO! As saind I don'T want my Pokemon to get hurt, but I also wouldn't want to hurt a partner of another trainer, which might be an competetive a*****e who then proceeds to scold it for loosing (like Paul in the Anime)

Pokemon have feelings too!!

Make Love, Not League!

[Ironbound]

Oh, you seem to think that the villainous team is preaching against competitive breeding and battling, which I admitted to be horrible. It's the other way around. Sorry.

I meant the villainous team could be some kind of vast corporate entity which conducts experiments on Pokegenetics with a lust for unlocking absolute power, such as we competitive a***s do (myself included, sorry, because I don't affix an individuality to pieces of pixelated data. In fact, I only treat them as a pawn in a game, and even that amount of recognition is awarded only to the most ruthlessly bred 'perfect' mons; the other casually caught things are nothing in my eyes. Do I make a good Boss for this team yet?)

Anyway, the idea of the player joining the antagonistic team is another one, because then they are accepted as a faction. As a favourite Reborn character says, 'Things are not always so black and white.' There is an antagonistic team, but it's up to the player to decide which faction is more correct/to their liking. The player in question here could either join the competitive organization in agreement to their policies of breeding and battling for ultimate power and victory, or they could deem their actions unethical (as they certainly are) and evil (which they needn't be) and join the 'casual player' faction, which, like you, could represent Pokémon Rights and act like a virtuous PETA or something, sacrificing genetic experimentation in favour of weaker but still ethically raised Pokémon.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Viridescent

[Cepheus]

In this Scenario EVERY OTHER player would want to join them!

because... well that's what competetive battling is about... you want to be successful in competetive battling? - better get them Perfect IVs and Nature!

that's why you see the same Pokemon over and over again in competetive tournaments!

If this evil team would offer them - make it to this faster than you chain breeding, IV breeding etc. at the daycare - because they have technology to give you exactly what you want.

Why wouldn't YOU want to join them, when they can get you a perfect 6 IV, perfect nature Pokemon with breeding moves in a heartbeat?

And yeah... In the GAME being like that ... ok... it's just Data! I get that...

but in a "Pokemon are real scenario" or the Pokemon anime (which is essentially that scenario) this kind of behavior is... questionable...

[Ironbound]

I agree. But I disagree about the 'same Pokémon everywhere' trope in competitive battles. A creative player can win with any Pokémon, even with a Pachirisu, as was proved recently. In fact, I myself favour the use of unexpected and underrated Pokémon in battles since they have a lot of surprise factor. At the same time I concede that the good ol' Lando-T, Rotom-W, Clefable and TankChomp are used because they are quite simply so good at doing their job. However, I do, of course, insist on having perfect IVs and EVs, even if I decide to use a Bidoof.

As for the Pokémon are real scenario, again I agree. But let me ask you this. If Pokemon are real, IVs and stuff must also be real.

What if a Mon with poor IVs is weaker or crippled? A poor speed IV Mon is born lame, for instance, and one with bad defense might be frail or weak-boned, etc. Similarly a wrong nature might be in contradiction to their very existence and might be a bad thing for them in the wild: imagine a Gentle nature Gyarados, or a Relaxed nature Jolteon. These natures are more like a character flaw, since a Gentle Gyarados cannot be the predator it is naturally designed to be, and a lazy Jolteon can't run fast so it won't be able to survive long anyway.

It is harsh, but life is also harsh. Are there not many crippled animals born every day? Are not the weak killed by the strong? Is it not a law of nature? In fact, it is nature's way of showing mercy to the weak: by killing them instantly, they are put out of their miserable existence. Even real life animals bred for their purpose are put down ethically to spare them pain: Horses and dogs, if they are incurably crippled or diseased, are euthanized humanely too.

So if we, or the 'evil' organization, is doing research to try and make pokeom genetics stronger, they are doing a good thing, because they want to reduce this cruel randomness that happens due to weak genes. If, in that process, some Pokémon get hurt, it's just a necessary evil, all for a greater good. And if we dispose of Pokémon with bad IVs or a bad nature, we are doing them a favour also by sparing them a crippled life.

I make a good case, don't I? We're only evil if others call us so. In fact, the casual faction might be considered evil also, keeping a crippled or unnatural Pokémon alive just for their emotional satisfaction.

[Cepheus]

Well Pokemon natures are delicate - because we have to account for WILD and DOMESTICATED Pokemon.

A gentle Gyarados might not be the perfect predator in the wild, but it might be the perfect addition to a Pokemon Water-Park! - SWIMMING WITH GYARADOS!

lets look at the Anime - Misty, a Water-Pokemon Trainer and Gym-Leader adores all Water Pokemon - except Gyarados, because of its aggressive and scary nature... what would Misty do if she encountered a gentle and friendly one? - sure she would still be scared because its a Gyarados, but it could help her to overcome this fear.

a Lazy Jolteon - well it might not be able to run as fast as others, but that would make it perfect for some trainer that also is lazy... or due to age isn't able to walk fast anymore.

And in todays society even crippled animals have a place in the domesticated sector.

A dog with only 3 legs? - The dog doesn't care... it can still run around and play with you!

Sure in the Wild it would be considered easy prey.

Is it sick? - you as your owner bring it to the Vet to make him well again, because you love your stupid, crippled 3-legged dog anyways, because it is your best-buddy - who doesn't judge YOU for any disabilities you might have!

If this Organization would try to help eradicate these disabilities for WILD Pokemon, to make them perfect for the WILD world - it would eventually cause problems in the domesticated sector, because that Eevee you evolved into Jolteon, may never relax its spikes and let you cuddle it, what you always did when it was still an Eevee - it would hurt you!

I mean in X/Y there was this sidequest with the Old Man - there is a reason he asked you for a Pokemon with level 5 or lower - because he wouldn't be able to keep up with anything stronger!

And eventually the Pokemon world would be overflowed with Perfect, invulnerable, Killing Machines, that act on their pure survival insitnct and attack and hunt everything they encounter... even humans!

And then Humans would be driven behind walls, to protect themselfes from these Perfect, aggressive Pokemon... until Humankind would receive a grim reminder why they build the walls in the first place decades later...

(yes, this is an 'Attack on Titans' reference)

--------

HOWEVER we are now discussing the ethics of all this and I think we derailed from the actual topic... which is Sun/Moon discussion.

[Ironbound]

Possibly. I could say that wanting a Pokémon of an opposite nature just for the sake of domestication is not exactly good either...like deliberately dulling the instincts of a Bengal Tiger simply because you want to keep a big cat as a pet, when it belongs in the wild.

You also imply that a Mon with perfect IVs or the correct instinctive nature is a killer by itself. No, it will simply be healthier in mind and body, and it will still love and obey its trainer. A Modest or Timid Jolteon with perfect IVs and training would probably still be a better pet if you domesticate it, and would also do well in the wild.

But I won't continue this because this deserves a thread of its own. I'll work on it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Viridescent

[Masquerain]

I totally agree that I'd want another villain team to be akin to what BW brought to us. I will never understand Archie's motives though. Like, I get you want to increase the water to land ratio for the sake of pokemon but..ehm? Only water 'mon can thrive in water and that makes Archie a special kind of stupid imo...unless he only cared about water types.

Anyways, each and every one of us is a villain in pokemon games. If we were really put inside that world, we'd be terrible beings for everything we do to pokemon. Personally, I can't picture how such a bad team would be implemented into a game, again, because we as trainers do the very same thing, so it would be very....well,let's just say we'd be hypocrites for "defeating IV/competitive evil team" only to take their place. I would really love it if villains would have stronger stuff than rattatas and 1st route fodders though.

I also definitely wish to see a game that gives us a path to take. We can't always be that one special aura trainer that is set apart from the entire pokemon world. To err is human, and we should be given the choice to err, even if we later on get back to the "good side", I think it'd be way more fun to be in the shoes of someone like..for example, Alan in the megaevo specials/xyz. He's more or less helping lysandre without knowing what his intentions are

[Ironbound]

Exactly my point. It's the old what-if-yiu-could-say-yes-to-that-Rocket-grunt-and-join-an-evil-team conundrum.

Anyway, I'll start a thread about this line of thought. Meanwhile, let's theorymon about sun and Moon more.

What do you think the E4 will be like? I hope they are more difficult than dumb old Kalos's.

[Masquerain]

I'd expect to see a fairy E4 doodgurl

Poison E4 is always nice

I hope for no dragons or dark E4 (but please after 6 generations, give us a damned dark gym)

Would also not mind a flying or ele E4 (it would be a good enough balance i think, fly/ele, fairy/poison)

But I definitely hope to not see overused types in gyms and E4

Praises to whoever decided to make Roxie exist as a 2nd gym in bw2

Edited April 7, 2016 by Masquerain

[RainbowHugs]

Not much is concrete, but new Mega's is a given

[Masquerain]

But what if megas are replaced by a new thing?

[Cepheus]

Type we don't have an Elite 4 Member:

Normal

Rock (well... Bruno had 2 Onix...)

Grass

Fairy

Flying

Electric

So I really would like 5 of those typings in the Elite 4 + Champ

Grass, Fairy, Electric and Rock as Elite 4

and Normal as Champ

and everyone gets a part Flying to incorporate that aswell.

also I want the traditionell Elite 4 back - Fighting them in a given order! and not like in Gen.5 and X/Y where you choose the order... that somehow made a break in the "We are the Elite 4 - with Lance being the best of us" feeling.

edit:

Oh yeah, and give them 6 Pokemon! make it a full battle - those 4 Pokemon in X/Y where a joke...

also yeah Dark-type Gym... it's about friggin time...

although there is a theory on WHY there are no Dark type Gyms (in short):

Since every Dark type moves has a secondary effect - Dark type is considered "foul play" and bad behavior to use 'underhanded' tactics - and Gym Leaders are supposed to be Role-models.

Using underhanded tactics as a role-model could have bad influence on trainers...

but I would say, exactly that is why we NEED a Dark Type Gym - to teach trainers that using underhanded tactics isn't always the way to victory.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Cepheus

[Masquerain]

I agree the E4 in BW was a joke, so was that in kalos. At least bw2 somewhat remedied the E4 by giving people a better fight at least in challenge mode but the choice of order still sucks. SInnoh E4 is probably by far my favorite one. Type diversity is awesome.. You had bugs, grounds, fire, psychic and then a mixed champ. 'Twas lovely.

The most overused types in E4 are dark, fighting, ghost, psychic, ice, dragon .. I definitely don't wanna see anymore of them

and well, the dark TM theory doesn't seem to hold ground, seeing as how we get many TMs from gyms that have secondary effects, or some kind of "foul play" ... U-turn from Bugsy, priority move shock wave (kind of), Misty's water pulse that can confuse, rock slide that can flinch, drain punch from maylene, volkner's charge beam and so on

Edited April 7, 2016 by Masquerain

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Re enemy team: Team Flare kind of felt like a half-hearted mixture of Team Rocket and Team Galactic, and Lysandre was a terribly written character with the dumbest motive and mindset of any of the teams. The best thing about Team Flare imo was Xerosic's development in the Looker Bureau sidequest. I don't care what the enemy team in Sun/Moon's scheme is as long as both the goal and characters are better than Team Flare.

(I wouldn't be fond of the casual vs competitive idea though, because I don't like meta/fourth wall breaking. It even gets under my skin when levels are mentioned as though they actually physically exist and aren't just game numbers to represent how strong a Pokemon is)

Re gym leaders and E4, it would be cool if they made types that would actually fit a sun and moon theme.

The most overused types in E4 are dark, fighting, ghost, psychic, ice, dragon .. I definitely don't wanna see anymore of them

Ice has been used twice, which is the same amount that Fire has been used.

1: Poison, Bug, Ground, Steel, Water

2: Ice, Fire

3: Fighting, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Psychic

[Spineblade]

In terms of the Elite Four, I'd really like to see some interactions with them throughout the main story of Sun and Moon. Often, we've only been given the information "X is a really strong trainer, they specialise in Y type", and we just have to take that for granted. If there was a point where we could meet with them during the adventure, even battle alongside them, we would be able to see them more as developed characters who had justification for being strong, and the final battle against the League would have more to it than just battling four strong trainers.

I recall that in Gen 4, Flint met with the player briefly around Sunyshore City. It was a small interaction, but it meant there was a sense of recognition when I eventually got around to battling him. And I liked it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Spineblade

[Ironbound]

Yes, it's nice to take in all these views. Personally, I liked good ol' Sinnoh E4 myself.

Aaron was excellent as a Bug type user, Bertha was kinda meh, Flint was another of those good characters that actually does something in the game before just randomly appearing as an E4, and Lucien pulled it off well, despite Will already existing as a Psychic user. I also liked the fact that the entire E4 in Sinnoh had at least one exception to their typing, save for Lucien, who had a pure mono Psychic team; Aaron has Drapion, Bertha had Ttar, I think, and Flint in DP actually had a mixed team, with Lopunny, Steelix and Drifblim.

Of course, Cynthia was the best champion. Extremely interactive, diverse team, and a credible challenge with that monstrously levelled Garchomp.

So, my expectation of Gen7 E4 is something similar. I'd like a bunch of trainers who don't necessarily use mons of the same TYPE, as long as they keep a set THEME. For instance, we can have a weather based E4, in this order:

Hail user with some serious threats like Mamoswine and Weavile, along with a bunch of Snow Cloak abusers.

Sun based user with Fire and Grass types, featuring Drought users and Chlorophyll abusers.

Rock/Ground user, with a Sand team that uses things like Gliscor, Gastrodon and Cradily to avoid their shared weaknesses, and a Sand Rush Driller or something.

Rain user with Water and Steel types that benefit from having their Fire weakness nullified. Oh yeah, Swift Swim + Drizzle and Ferrothorn!

All of them should also use Megas in the first run itself; I can think of Mega Abomasnow, CharizardY, Tyranitar and Gyarados as their respective aces.

And finally, a champion who uses a diverse, competitively viable team with a borked Mega like a Mawile, Blaziken or heck, Salamence. Diantha was on the right track, but too weak and not with a competitive team of six. There should be a real challenge again.

Also, it's a good idea to have the gym leaders and E4 actually be involved in law and order within the region, kinda like BW's gym leaders who assist the player in hunting down team Plasma, and actually come around to fighting the Seven Sages at the end.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Viridescent

[Cobalt996]

But I definitely hope to not see overused types in gyms and E4

[Counting B2/W2 Gyms separate from B/W Gyms (including overlap)]

[Counting Kanto Gyms twice (bar ground) due to reappearing in GSC/HGSS]

Types by previous usage (Gym/E4/Champion):

1: Fairy

3: Dark, Normal

4: Flying, Ground, Poison, Steel

5: Bug, Ghost, Grass, Rock

6: Fire, Ice

7: Electric, Fighting, Psychic

8: Dragon, Water

Five uses is our approximate mean, with four and six being reasonably likely as well. It's slightly bimodal at 4-5 and 7, and skewed left to boot, but it's TPCi; of course there's going to be repetition. We aren't their only customers.

Fire, Ice, Water, Electric, and Fighting are easy-to-imagine types, so it makes sense why they are the among the most common when you consider the lower end of the target audience, while the more dynamic (or just new) types tend to be spread a bit more thinly.

Additionally, Psychic and Dragon have the highest (34%) and third-highest (26%) density in the typing of legendary Pokemon (counting each unique type per form once, Arceus is Normal only). Yes, Flying is up there, too, despite having a moderate amount of gyms. This is likely due to Flying types being stereotyped as birds (which plenty are). Birds are common, at least in the real world, insofar as I know, which immediately makes them "less interesting" but the fact of them being common needed to be reflected.

Just my thoughts. Personally, I wouldn't mind the lower types getting a bump up on the usage list. Perhaps a gym that allows you to challenge your choice of type, similar to B/W, but not making it "whatever hits your starter the best".

EDIT:

(tfw 40-minute ninja)

Yes. All that. Except weather is really easy to break when it's in-game AI, what with the end of the weather starters' reign of terror in Gen V.

And the easy solution TPCi could use is just a difficulty option of "beginner" "experienced" or something else ambiguous and 100% TPCi

Edited April 7, 2016 by Cobalt996

[Masquerain]

I would worship them if they introduced difficulty mode again (but this time not make it unlockable only in 2 game and after you beat the game once..that's redundant)

No matter how many random things we mention, it always comes down to bw/2 being the best games made so far... they introduced rotation battles, introduced a "new type" of gym leader (the waiter trio, they could also make it a triple battle alternatively in the future), best villains, best plot, best distribution of gym types in bw2 at least, E4 was bad but hey..

Maybe seeing all that can give hope that new generations will even introduce dualtype gym leaders or something

[Ironbound]

I prefer BW plot-wise to BW2. As a person of my acquaintance put it so succinctly:

BW Plasma: "Hi! We're PokéPETA! Consider your Pokémon's freedom!"

BW2 Plasma: "F*** it, we're terrorists now. Gimme."

As for which games had the most impact on the series, it'd have to be DPPt. The physical/special split, the move variations, the new evolution lines to old favourites, definitely grandest scale of legendaries (friggin' Time and Space and Emotion amd Nightmares and GOD?) As well as the most fun OU tier of all time (in my opinion)...there's a lot going for it.

But each generation has been bringing us fresh game mechanics, so here's to hoping Gen 7 brings us something innovative and fun.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Viridescent

[Cobalt996]

As for which games had the most impact on the series, it'd have to be DPPt. The physical/special split, the move variations, the new evolution lines to old favourites, definitely grandest scale of legendaries (friggin' Time and Space and Emotion amd Nightmares and GOD?) As well as the most fun OU tier of all time (in my opinion)...there's a lot going for it.

But each generation has been bringing us fresh game mechanics, so here's to hoping Gen 7 brings us something innovative and fun.

I have a feeling that the fresh new mechanic will either be a battle type (aka inverse being more accessible) or a pokemon feature (evolution, friendship, etc), seeing how the latter (gen 2, 4, 6) gains an Eevee evolution as a shiny label, while the other (gen 3, 5) becomes a new feature for competitive.

Competitively, GSC split special in two and added types, RSE brought Doubles, DPPt split attacks, B/W added battle types and gave out shiny new abilities to nearly everything, and X/Y was an effective fetter for the weathermongering of B/W, while adding a new type because people got bored of the same mons over and again and two battle mechanics (Megas and inverse)

But I like Doubles the most, so I liked RSE's addition the most. That being said, DPPt is definitely the most monumental change to competitive. Imagine some of the Gen 4-6 mons having type-based P/S STABs.

No matter how many random things we mention, it always comes down to bw/2 being the best games made so far...

Never played it. Never even knew difficulty was a thing there.