Strengthening R7 Moderation

[ZEL]

An important takeaway following this change is underrepresentation of users, particularly those who were accepting of the lax enforcement of R7 on the server. We've heard more cases of users having issues with loose enforcement of R7 than users who enjoy it the way it was. If there's a change Reborn ought to implement, make yourselves heard. I won't speak on the fellow Staff's accounts, but I will hear suggestions that someone feels should be implemented- we've even got a thread for it.

Well, thing is... I would probably feel more comfortable making myself heard if I didn't already know that doing so will end up with someone arguing that I need to shut up because my humor sucks.

It's really a no-win situation the way I see it, because if someone says they want the freedom to make r7 jokes, they'll be told to grow up and/or respect people who feel uneasy about those jokes, and if someone wants stricter regulation of r7 then they'll be told they need to toughen up and get over it.

At the end of the day it boils down to "grow up and get over it" on both ends, because either way a large group of people is gonna end up feeling unwelcome.

[Arkhi]

It's really a no-win situation the way I see it, because if someone says they want the freedom to make r7 jokes, they'll be told to grow up and/or respect people who feel uneasy about those jokes, and if someone wants stricter regulation of r7 then they'll be told they need to toughen up and get over it.

At the end of the day it boils down to "grow up and get over it" on both ends, because either way a large group of people is gonna end up feeling unwelcome.

Ultimately, this decision boils down to whether we'd like the community more fun/laid back- that is, tolerant of jokes and humor pertaining to sex and discomforting topics, or more inclusive- accepting of people by creating an environment in which people feel safe and welcome. Entertainment is great and all, though in bare-bones respect, the community is centered more so upon the Pokemon Reborn game itself and the creation of an inclusive safe haven. I believe this change reflects the Staff's decision to create a community more inclusive for everyone, even if we must compromise a genre of humor, discussion, or however else sexual content is expressed by a user.

That is to say it's a win-lose, if you'd like to boil it down to that. Better we provide a comfort zone than risk undermining that entirely.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Arkhi

[Shamitako]

See, and that's where you're missing something. You're not making it more inclusive. You're trading one group for another

The people who are already here from the innuendo camp probably won't be leaving (I've tried, it's impossible ) but as I said before, I'm only here because of the community's open policy on topics like this, so others mayn't come. Surely I can't be the only person who would only stick around because they feel more welcome here than in other places where innuendo or in-depth sexual discussion wouldn't be tolerated (In fact, Lost made a status earlier saying that she felt unwelcome because of this, so that's at least two)

Some people will feel more comfortable without sexual discussion, others will feel more comfortable where they can openly talk about sexual topics. The tradeoff isn't humor for accessibility, it's humor and accessibility for different accessibility

[Felicity]

Actually I'd say whatever I want in public with strangers about. It's individuals and their attitudes towards discussions that influence whether I curb my tongue. Attitudes they informed me about in a reasonable manner. Besides, as I mentioned before, rules don't have to be in place for the jokes to stop in main for a while, a polite request to stop will stop it. These measures don't need to be taken and start this ruckus and make people feel like black sheep for liking a shitty joke now and then.

As for whether kids should be exposed to this, that's a whole other argument. No one is forcing them to stick around and be exposed to these apparently horrible innuendos, which really aren't bad. Hell, this is probably one of the best places to be in when exposed to that stuff. because children will eventually find it all and more, as Reborn is the most tolerant community I've seen. So no, it really isn't that simple.

And for christ's sake if you actually are around just say so when it's clear I'm doubting you. Otherwise I am obviously going to misunderstand you.

[Tacos]

In addition to what Ark has said, we'd rather not sacrifice the comfort of most users by allowing this behavior when we can put a tighter leash on the behavior and those who are offended or disturbed by it can feel comfortable once again. While we do also understand that people more prone to this humor may find this change not as appealing, we truly believe that every member here has more to bring to the table in forms of communication and jokes than merely sexual content.

To put it in perspective, imagine a situation like in a school. A student is constantly taking pencils from their fellow classmate, and the classmate whose pencils are being taken obviously isn't happy. But because it doesn't seem like a giant problem, the student doesn't speak out. One day the teacher sees the student taking the other's pencil without permission and forbids it. The student who has been taking pencils complains that they've always been doing it and that it's unfair that they suddenly are receiving punishment. Just because it's been done before, and has become habitual, doesn't make it any better to do. The best course of action is for the student to start bringing pencils to class so they don't have to take any from others. The same can be said for this announcement. Member's must simply bring another genre of humor or conversation to the table than just sexual content. And we truly believe every member here is capable of it. I don't think I could look at a single member on the forums and say, "Yeah, this person's only distinguishable quality is how everything they say is sexual."

My point is that this action was never 100% beneficial to everyone to begin with, and just because it wasn't recognized before, doesn't mean it was ever any better to begin with.

[Odybld]

It's 3.40 am and I'm already in bed but I can't let the absolutely irrelevant example of Tacos slip by. That's an egregious parallel.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

So, we're attempting to remove innuendo from the main chat so that kids who come here because of the game aren't put off by the sexual innuendo

I cannot be the only one who sees the irony in this

(not sure what to think about the topic yet but replying to this specifically) I get that about half of Cain's dialogue are innuendos, but most of them go over my head because I'm not familiar with/aren't exposed to those references. The only two I got were "I get that a lot, mostly from boys though" and the one about the lights being off (don't remember the exact wording).

[Tacos]

I'm sorry if the example seemed irrelevant. My overall point was to explain that this isn't exactly a new thing, and the discomfort has been around long before the announcement, and just because it wasn't reported all the time and is just getting attention now, doesn't justify the past actions of it. While I admit it was a bit of a rough example, I was also trying to get the point across that bringing conversation and humor that doesn't involve sexual content is just as easy as simply bringing a pencil to school instead of taking one from a classmate. In the end, all it takes is a little extra effort from one person and both parties can be reasonably satisfied.

[starkidcosmo]

Keeping the main chat a safe environment is more important than a few people's ability to say whatever they want. Inclusivity and acceptance =/= accepting and including literally everything no matter what.

[Shamitako]

I'm sorry if the example seemed irrelevant. My overall point was to explain that this isn't exactly a new thing, and the discomfort has been around long before the announcement, and just because it wasn't reported all the time and is just getting attention now, doesn't justify the past actions of it. While I admit it was a bit of a rough example, I was also trying to get the point across that bringing conversation and humor that doesn't involve sexual content is just as easy as simply bringing a pencil to school instead of taking one from a classmate. In the end, all it takes is a little extra effort from one person and both parties can be reasonably satisfied.

"Other people don't like you, be someone else." <- This is how this post sounds to my ears. This isn't just about humor and fun, it's about people and personalities

Imagine if, for whatever reason, I had no access to any pencils whatsoever. Now of course the majority of people have pencils, so to them it seems silly that I can't just bring my own, thereby they never share or try to work with me to get me my own pencil. Now instead, I try taking a pencil from another kid and that works, now I have a pencil for the day. So I keep doing this, but eventually the teacher sees this, and without making any attempts to deal with the issue first, simply tells me I can't use this other kid's pencils anymore. So now I have no pencil and nobody has tried to work with me to resolve the issue. Since obviously it's very easy to just bring my own pencil

[Rosesong]

Ok, I'm going to try my hand at clearing some of this up, so bear with me.

If you look at R7 in the rules, it states the following:

• 7. No overtly sexual content.

Keep discussions "PG13". Passing jokes and mature conversations are okay in small doses, but these subjects should not dominate the environment or make others uncomfortable.

The auth team has become aware of several users that are uncomfortable with the events that occur in the chat; a lewd comment is made and the chat stays in that vein for a long period of time, or a comment is purposefully made to be lewd and conversation carries onward. The rule does very clearly state that these are okay in passing, in that you can make the comment and then move on. Moderators are just going to try to make sure that this type of thing does not become the prevailing topic.

A lot of this hinges on respecting others as well; if people are saying that they are uncomfortable with the topic, then you should respect that maybe a public place is not the ideal location for the conversation. Additionally, if the conversation dies when taken to a back channel, then maybe it wasn't worth having in the first place? I know that this isn't always the case in terms of conversation because the Lobby is the main hub, but the auth team has stated multiple times that the Abyss is really a better place for things that tend to infringe on R7 as a courtesy to other users.

In all honesty, it isn't so much becoming stricter on rule 7 as it is holding the rule to its full integrity, something that the auth team has to take fault on because we have not upheld the rule to its full extent at times, allowing things to maybe go a bit too far before trying to quell things. At the same time, there are more things that can be humorous and talked about that don't infringe on this rule. I would also like to point out that no one in particular is being called out or targeted here. This post goes out to the entirety of the community, not just a couple of people.

[Shamitako]

If you're not actually changing anything, then why the post about changing things? why not just start dealing with things properly?

A lot of this hinges on respecting others as well; if people are saying that they are uncomfortable with the topic, then you should respect that

And it's been said that if asked to stop, stopping will happen. But it's generally not asked, at least not very clearly

Like I've said, this doesn't effect me directly--I already feel unwelcome in main--but there are others that it does/will and I really wish the auth team would take some time to consider them instead of just going and saying that they can't act like themselves in the open under any circumstances

Anyways, I've stated my opinion on the matter several times over now. My protests shall now become silent, or occasionally musical. I don't like this policy change, but it's out of my hands. I hope my words will at least be taken into consideration and that even if this isn't reverted, the community will halt its movement in this direction. I'd really rather not become a monster again

With hope,

Lexi

[Rosesong]

If you're not actually changing anything, then why the post about changing things? why not just start dealing with things properly?

I understand your issue here. Why should we have told you, if it's not as serious as it's being made out to be in the post?

Here's my answer for that. We don't want accusations of being unfair in our judgments, but we also don't want you all feeling like you weren't given any warning in regards to this. Our goal is to keep the community informed, and suddenly enforcing a rule to its fullest extent isn't fair to you all without warning. The wording of this post was made serious as a way to actually resonate with you, but it's become clear to us on the auth team that the wording was far too strong and has caused uprise and strife in the community.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's more to people than lewd comments and jokes, so they shouldn't be afraid to be themselves. I'm speaking from personal experience here, and I'm aware that it's not the same for all people, but my close friends here know that I have more ways to turn something lewd than you could imagine, with an arsenal of lewd jokes to boot. At the same time though, there's a time and place for everything, which is why I refrain from doing so in the Lobby. In my back channel is a completely different story.

[Odybld]

Rose, backchannels are dead. Yours included, although it takes a special invitation to join too. So drop the arguments including them. If I have to remove myself from the free flowing lobby conversation go to another place to say a one line joke about exploding or machinery to my friend also in the lobby, then how exactly would you call that? I call that "showing me the door". There is a time and place for everything, and it clearly is not for me. Because I and my friend make two and then another one makes us three and suddenly we're dominating the lobby conversation.

You have given me a large finger here, Rose. You and every member of the auth team.

[Rosesong]

Rose, backchannels are dead. Yours included, although it takes a special invitation to join too. So drop the arguments including them. If I have to remove myself from the free flowing lobby conversation go to another place to say a one line joke about exploding or machinery to my friend also in the lobby, then how exactly would you call that? I call that "showing me the door". There is a time and place for everything, and it clearly is not for me. Because I and my friend make two and then another one makes us three and suddenly we're dominating the lobby conversation.

You have given me a large finger here, Rose. You and every member of the auth team.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

The fact still remains though that this is actually the rule, and as a result needs to be enforced as such. We're trying to strike a balance in which the passing things can stay a thing so long as they are truly passing and yet not alienating a large part of our userbase that enjoys these borderline jokes. Compromise is what we're going for, although should anyone have any better suggestions on how to handle this, please feel free to PM a staff member so that we can discuss and figure out a better way to manage things.

For the time being though, actual enforcement of the rule as it states is the conclusion we've arrived at.

[Odybld]

It is neither a compromise nor an enforcement of the current R7, with an announcement cracking down on non-R7 material (innuendos, subtext) and also arguments that belong to an entirely different rule, R1, for people that do not wish to be mentioned in that kind of conversations, see DD's post off top of my head.

God I wish I could sleep.

[Rosesong]

Ok, I'm going to try my hand at clearing some of this up, so bear with me.

If you look at R7 in the rules, it states the following:

The auth team has become aware of several users that are uncomfortable with the events that occur in the chat; a lewd comment is made and the chat stays in that vein for a long period of time, or a comment is purposefully made to be lewd and conversation carries onward. The rule does very clearly state that these are okay in passing, in that you can make the comment and then move on. Moderators are just going to try to make sure that this type of thing does not become the prevailing topic.

A lot of this hinges on respecting others as well; if people are saying that they are uncomfortable with the topic, then you should respect that maybe a public place is not the ideal location for the conversation. Additionally, if the conversation dies when taken to a back channel, then maybe it wasn't worth having in the first place? I know that this isn't always the case in terms of conversation because the Lobby is the main hub, but the auth team has stated multiple times that the Abyss is really a better place for things that tend to infringe on R7 as a courtesy to other users.

In all honesty, it isn't so much becoming stricter on rule 7 as it is holding the rule to its full integrity, something that the auth team has to take fault on because we have not upheld the rule to its full extent at times, allowing things to maybe go a bit too far before trying to quell things. At the same time, there are more things that can be humorous and talked about that don't infringe on this rule. I would also like to point out that no one in particular is being called out or targeted here. This post goes out to the entirety of the community, not just a couple of people.

I'm going to ask everyone to read this again; it says in the final paragraph that this is not becoming stricter so much as it is just holding up the rule to its actual standard as opposed to what we've been doing. I've also stated multiple times that the wording used in this topic is far too strong and has unintentionally been the cause of all of this grief.

For the record, light mentions of things that are R7 material are allowed in passing.

[Odybld]

Fine. I will weight again the severity of accusations and threats expressed in this topic against me personally by auth members (this is how I take it) and I will dissect them appropriately and in length at my leisure. However, my point in the last post still stands: your post is inconsistent to other posts by auth here, including the announcement, which is a cause of concern by itself: I do not feel safe in being met by a consistent, much less sensible, measuring stick.

[Rosesong]

Actually, the auth that have posted here have given me the go ahead with my comments, which is why I've posted them. Dan will be here in a bit to fully clarify things, but what I've said surprisingly reflects the consensus that the auth have come to. I've also tried to make this clear in my posts, so if I have not, which seems to be the case, I'm sorry.

I'm taking this opportunity to apologize to the community on behalf of the auth team, as we know this has been an extreme bundle of confusion, especially when we've tried so hard to keep it from becoming like that. Please realize that our intentions are not to oppress you and are solely for the good of the community. We are working to find a way to accurately clarify what we mean to accomplish at this point in time, and ask that you be patient. This is a highly delicate balance that we're trying to strike, and I'm sure you all realize that it's very difficult to do.

Ody, I'm going to apologize to you personally right now for anything that you have viewed as me targeting you, seeing as I have honestly been the only staff member that has addressed you in this thread. It was most definitely not my intent to do so and I did not mean for it to come across in that manner.

[Tacos]

If I may respond, my own response is incorrect looking back at it. I had not acquired all the information and had made a reply uneducated to the topic at hand and I apologize for that, it was an incredibly mistake on my behalf. But don't let that discredit what Rose said. Her statement is the most accurate one here, and I recommend you trust and listen to it. Additionally, from what I believe, there haven't been any accusations or threats made so I ask that you take a moment to calm down and look back at this later when things have settled, as this situation has festered and everybody, auth included, have emotions running high. As Rose said, none of this was intended to oppress anybody. I apologize if anything said came off that way. We as members of the auth are also prone to mistakes, and this will and has been one of many.

Once again, my apologies for any confusion, offense, or harm brought about by previous statements.

[Deleted User]

The thing about back channels being dead, that's all on you. If you don't want them to be dead, then start joining them. Swimming even added autojoin commands so that you're added each time you log on the server. The only downside is that they need to be re done every couple of weeks upon server restarts. But the notion that it's a meaningless argument because they're dead is ludicrous. Instead of complaining about them being dead, do something about it and be there to make them less dead. It's hardly different from the backchannels in Pokemon Online so the only ones you have to blame for that are yourselves.

Borderline comments are allowed. We'd prefer you don't go out of your way to force fringe comments, but if it comes up rather naturally in conversation so be it. Not every single thing that's said needs to be followed up with a "kinky" and in turn a few minutes of conversation on the matter in that same direction. We're not saying you can't make comments that are borderline, but to not let them dictate the conversation for any extended period of time. IF an auth thinks it's going to far, please understand and be cooperative rather than arguing and acting oppressed. You still will not be warned if you are mindful of such.

In short.

1. Try not to needlessly force Rule 7 ish comments into each and every conversation.
2. Do not drag on conversation of Rule 7 ish comments for an extended period of time
3. If you feel like having longer conversations about such, use the Abyss or another backchannel.

If any of you want to continue being rude to the auth, say it to me. I'm quite frankly tired of and appalled at the way some comments have been made towards the other auth in light of our request for you to be more mindful of such things.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I'll be honest, there's a reason I've not yet commented in here. And it's because well 1. I was a bit behind on what was going on. That's on me.

But 2... because anytime I personally ask for stuff to go in a different direction, I've been blown off and ignored. Now, I'll admit I'm not the clearest at times whith communicating what I mean... it happens. But It's happened to happen quite a few times where I'll ask that we move along from a conversation of said nature. I don't mind a lewd joke or two, or a little comment here or there. That's fine by me. What I do mind is that whenever one is made everyone else feels like it's time to jump on the bandwagon and make the chat only about that. And when I have asked in the past about things, they don't stop. And yes, I know I'm not on the server much, but this is really the reason why. Because anytime I am this stuff happens and when i ask that we take another direction to said conversation I'm just ignored. Really. I am. So, rather than just be ignored anyway, I just go do other things. Because the server is never a comfortable place for me to be. I say 1 thing and badly word it, ((or sometimes I'll say something that isn't even close to being borderline and people do it anyway)) and then the chat suddenly piles on and turns something I said int something like that. And then chat is about that for typically a long while. To the point I just don't want to deal with it anymore. Because I really don't like having to police everything and anything I say because if I make a typo by accident I'll become the butt of jokes that I don't really care for, for the next like... 10 to 20 minutes. And trust me, maybe it's been in my own way but I do say for people to move on, but they don't. Plenty of times I've expressed that I don't really are for shipping. Do I mind if it comes up a little bit? No. It doesn't bother me. but as soon as it's done once the whole chat becomes about it the next 10 mintues to upwards of an hour at times. And if I do ask, all people do is give me a "Well, jsut leave then" or a "It's just in fun don't take it so seriously". I get it enough to know that when chat becomes about a thing that I'm not comfortable with and if I ask about it to go in another direction that I personally am only met with "Sorry, leave." Pretty much everytime. That's my personal experience. So, I personally don't buy the "If you ask we'll stop" thing. Because anytime I do ask, it does nothing. TO the point I jsut don't like being on the server because it frequently gets to that point anytime I am on. I'll readily admit, things in that area don't sit well with me with people that I'm not EXTREMELY good friends with because in those scerinos they make me very uncomfortable. I don't liek talking aobut that stuff in the vicinity of folks that don't know me... really at all. Even people I'm close to I'm hesitant to. It's just not soemthing for me and it really never will be.

I shouldn't have to bring up a certain running joke that kept going despite multiple times I asked it to stop. But I will. Because it would happen all the time despite what I said. I've got way too many experiences with things where I do ask and try to be polite about it, but it doesn't work. It happens all too often for me here. ANd it's why I choose t not really partake in the Server. Because I don't feel safe personally. Like really at all. Because even when i try to be clear in my meaning adn say that I'm not really comfortable with something well... me doing that doesn't matter unless I get loud about it. ((and that's not something I should feel I should have to do to be heard.))

Now... what I will say is that what Rose has been saying is exactly what we are trying to do. We aren't trying to quell it entirely from the chat at all. Quite the contrary. Because we get it, some people are just more comfortable with that sort of stuff and some more naturally float around that kind of humour etc. There's nothing wrong with that. It's when it snowballs ((like it often does, at least half the time when I'm on.)) that is. Trust me, I don't mind a passing comment, or an off-color joke. ((I love those jokes in the right setting.)). Seriously... I know some don't mind but try putting yourself in someone like me's shoes. I don't really like attention especially of that kind. So, when a small comment I made suddenly turns into the whole chat going on about it for quite a lot of time... imagine how I feel about it. It really does make me feel unwlecome, or gross. Like people are piling on me to tell me to get the heck out. Because to me it's not a funny little joke. It's directly mocking me. Even if I know that it is one, it still feels like it isn't. It feels like I started the whole ball rolling and that my mistake nets me being the butt of everyone's jokes for the next few minutes or even hours. ((or with a certain joke... pretty much a few months.)) It's not something that is very condusive to me wanting to stick around. I've been told pleeeeenty times people want me to stick around this place or that I am in fact wanted here in this community. However, they don't show me that. They only seem to feel that way once I've expressed myself a second time ((or fifth... sixth, seventh.)) and that I'm jsut at my boiling point because nobody every stops until I am and I legitimately get upset and can't handle it anymore. This is the thing we are trying to stop. We're not trying to change you, and we're not trying to say NEVER say these things. We're trying to put a light on that when you do say them, that maybe... think about others and how they feel about what's going on. Because we want folks to feel welcome. We want everyone too. That is our goal as auth.

Mayhaps some of the words used come off as that we want crackdown or get more strict. That's not the case. So, if there was a bit of a misunderstanding there... I get it. But trust me... we want the best for what's going on. At the very least, I want the best for the server and the forums here. I want the very best, the UTMOST best. I wouldn't be trying this hard to make the RP forum a great place if I didn't. I wouldn't be trying to foster the CW forum. I certainly wouldn't be posting here. I want you guys to know that I care about this place a lot. and I want as many people as there can be to feel at home here. This place has more or less been my home away from home for 2 years now. I can;t say that much for the server because there I feel... like I'm not supposed to be there because people give me a clear message that I don't matter enough to even listen to. Just... keep these things in mind. We aren't out to get you. We never were. I'm apologize for any misunderstandings etc.. but remember, that people do mess up from time to time. Even groups of them. Words are a hard thing to use. Especially on the internet where there is 0 inflection, or body language to help further a message and what it's intent and meaning truly are. We'll hit crossroads at times... It happens.

[mde2001]

Well I certainly didn't expect this to be so controversial...

I feel like some of you are blowing this a little bit out of proportion to be honest. This isn't us coming to ruin your lives- we're merely trying to make sure we enforce our own rules and make the main channel of the server a bit more appropriate for everyone. If we wanted to be super hard line about it we could get rid of the abyss channel and start to give sexual content warnings whenever something vaguely sexual was said. We aren't doing this at all.

And we aren't trading one group of people for another. I can't imagine why anyone would leave because of this to be honest. If you feel like all you're contributing to the server is borderline R7 content, I think you need to have a look at what you're posting and realise the good in the rest of it. To me, no-one who has posted complaints here is defined by sexual content and although I don't know most of you well at all, from the times I've been around you you've had much more interesting things to say.

Also, as Jeri said, if you feel like back channels are dead, revive them. If you start going there more then they will start to be more relevant.

If you feel like the announcement itself was unclear or not up to standard- come rage at me. I tried to make it blunt as I didn't feel that dodging around the issue would help anyone out. If in doing so I've made anyone feel like we're trying to stifle them, I do apologise but I stand by the overall message of the original post.

[Skeleton]

does this mean i cant make succ jokes anymore because thats really fucking lame

also the abyss is always dead?? maybe theres a dick topic going on once every week but that seems to be it

[Amethyst]

Hi. This doesn't need to be a thing, so let's start over. Take a deep breath. From the top now:

The policy isn't changing. We've gotten away from enforcing it consistently. We're getting back to that. This topic was just a reminder.

Make the best of your jokes-- but let them be glancing, light, and not so frequent that it's a main theme of conversation-- as it has been. These are our rules, but back channels are a free-for-all. They're quiet, but they're the anarchist's option. We suggest the Abyss for this particular flavor of anarchy. Take it or leave it. That's the kind of community this has always been.

That's not changing. It's also not open for debate. As such, neither will this topic be.

If you feel personally attacked by a reminder like this, please consider how greatly you must think of yourself to believe that a policy on a site of thousands of people was directed solely at you.

Otherwise I invite you to stay, sit, have a cup of whatever your cup of tea is, and watch to see just how bad this isn't.