Writing 101: The Importance of Feedback and Criticism

[Commander]

Alright so I'll probably make a few of these topics as writing is a fun little thing, but it can be a bit daunting on what and where to begin. Those might all be in one place, but I feel this one deserves it's own topic as it's one of the more important ones. Anyways here we go:

So writing is one of those simple things with zero rules, but due to implied rules is overly complicated to figure out where your boundaries and strengths lie. So the obvious answer is that you want to ask people how good of a writer you are. I really like being an anonymous writer as people are more willing to be honest which is a good thing about communities and writing communities. A friend might just say it's good to not hurt your feelings or he's not an experienced writer.

Why Feedback is so important

When reading a story online that you like, the number one thing you can do to hurt them is not comment at all. The second worst thing you can do is say something along the line: "I liked the story. Will keep reading." Those two things are just as bad, if not worse than: "Ermagawd! You're story is so bland. Couldn't you write deeper characterz or sometingz!" Now that you're done looking at me with a funny face, I'll explain myself.

Saying nothing is almost no different than saying you didn't like the story. It more or less means you didn't care for it and don't feel like it's worth the effort to say anything. Silence is the worst thing for a writer as it fills them with doubt and kills their self esteem and motivation. Short one lined comments are a tiny bit better, but not that much. To me, it feels like I failed as a writer for not getting you engaged to say anything more than you liked it. Why did you like it? If anything, it could be that you didn't like it and wanted me to feel better.

You don't have to be a critic or even really good at giving feedback to really motivate a writer. A little bit goes a very long way. I love it when people give me a small paragraph and reasons why they liked it as it makes me want to do more. Seriously, 3-4 sentences to the writer goes a long way and more is better. As a writer, I've gone back through both criticism and feedback many times when I feel down or I am struggling to write. Both are just so important and make me feel like I'm not wasting my time. I suppose I can give a comment someone gave to me a while back to show what I mean:

Like everyone said, your dialogue is well strung together. A few clarifications though. You said the old man was 'not on Earth' anymore. Was that a metaphor? Because he seemed like a villager, and I assume this town is on Earth because the whole "Germany" bit. Maybe I just need to read more haha. Love the stab at modern day politics though, its so damn true. Will return this for sure, good stuff.

...Sadly, part of me wants to reread that to see what I wrote since it was so long ago. Obviously, I was a lot less experienced back then so of course my writing wasn't perfect, but it's really easy to see when people enjoyed reading something and when they're faking it. A little bit goes a very long way and if you don't know what to talk about, feel free to use anything I mention in the criticism section.

How to give good criticism

Let's just accept a simple truth: we aren't perfect. You should always strive to better yourself and accept that so you can listen to people to become even better. I may not be the best critic in the world, but I'll use an example of criticism I gave for a writer when reading their story on a writing community I used to be a part of:

Well, I actually really enjoyed this one. You have a great style and you do a lot of things nicely. All the elements are there accept for an important one. You need to work on your word choice a bit when editing.
First off just about every sentence in the first paragraph starts with I. That is one of those classic story killers for a bunch of readers. At minimum, you should at least make sure no more than one sentence STARTS with "I". Here's an example of what I'm explaining.

Bad: I like music. I enjoy the sounds that they make. I feel happy because of it.

Good: Everyday, I enjoy listening to music while heading to work. The serene sounds emitting from the tiny machine calm my mind and make peace of the rioting and ever so noisy crowd.

Rarely does a sentence need to use I, even when it is about the narrator. Eliminating "I"s also helps the flow a bit.

The next paragraph had a bunch of unnecessary words. If a sentence reads fine without a word, remove that word. It takes practice, but it gets easier after a few tries. "Had" was a big one for you.

Third paragraph, I don't like how the first sentence is over half the paragraph, but that's just my opinion (it also felt unnecessarily long). Also, tragic story = tragedy. In addition, or putting on clothes should not be seperated by a common, and it could be simplified to or clothes. (I'd write it as or even a lightweight fabric to emphasize the pain).

Fourth paragraph, ummm...I don't recall her telling us anything beyond when she began to lose her legs so it's hard to imagine. Also, I think the whole robber/robbing section should be cut down or changed. It just didn't seem fitting and there are better things that could be inserted (like her past or her past social status).

Sorry for the overly long and technical kind of comment. It's kind of what I do on first chapters.


Criticism is very, very easy to make, but it takes a bit of practice to get good at it. I'm actually very critical of others to help noticing mistakes in my writing making it a very effective tool to learn. It's just best to be honest and point out a couple things which writer's like as not only does that mean they're paying attention, but it means they want to help you. Generally, I focus a lot on the techniques and style over the story when giving criticism as sometimes it's hard to criticize ideas. A strong style can make up for a weak plot point.

The best way to write criticism is 40% of what was good with the story, 40% of what you didn't like/wasn't well done, and the remaining 20% should be on what is good, but suggest improving on (usually I call out the works charms). You don't have to do that, but the most important thing is to just be honest and focus on helping the writer.

I'm actually going to break criticism into two catogoeries: stylized and plot based, but I won't even cover half of what you can talk about. This is more to give you an idea of how to give some criticism when reading something someone wrote:

Stylized Criticism:

1). The format

No, I'm not kidding. If something is all squished together in a single paragraph, not only does it look weird but it's a pain to read. I'll admit I have a habit of making my paragraphs a bit too small, but it's due to a different format that I worked with. Smaller paragraphs also make something less daunting to read despite it taking up more space.

2). The Word Choice

I clunked this section which could be a topic all in itself. If someone is repeating a word over and over, it's a bit irritating. There's also using too simple or too complex of a language (trust me, you don't want people to have to get a dictionary out to understand your story), but it's a delicate balance. Sometimes a word might come out jarring in a situation so this is always a big thing for editors to take note of to help writers.

3). Purple Prose and the lack of details

This is a term used when someone gets way too carried away with details. Nothing is more boring than reading about the finest details of the bark and roots of a tree that a character is dazzled by...in a sci-fi movie...unless of course it's the only tree. Picking what should be heavily detailed is definitely important because if you lack details, immersion isn't there and sometimes it's just hard to picture stuff.

4). The flow of the story (in general)

Everything I mentioned above affects how smoothly someone reads the story. You always want things to move fast during an actiony part of the story, but you always want to slow it down once that hot, juicy romance moment hits. This is definitely the number one thing I comment on because sometimes it feels like tense moments are ruined if they're rushed through. It's definitely the number one thing I emphasize when giving criticism and almost always try to mention it somewhere.

5). Show, Don't Tell

I hate this term. Don't get me wrong, it's very important, but it's used so stupidly. The greatest irony is that when I see this phrase, that's all people say about it. I had no idea what it meant or what it really meant until I researched it. (Ironic because they should be showing me what it means to help me). This term basically means saying "Bill killed the man" without actually saying it. This is actually used to give better visuals and even details. Instead of saying "Bill killed the man", I'd write "Bill unsheathed his sword as the cold metal pierced his long time rivals ribs, popping out behind his enemies back. When he pulled it out, the foe collapsed to the ground. His heart beating no more."

I don't have a lot of room or I'd give a better example, but you probably have a better idea than me just telling you that telling is bad. Don't do it. You have to do telling in order to keep the flow from slowing the whole story down as it is a bog at that point, but showing is more interesting and better visually.

6). Typos and Grammar Errors

Usually, I just glaze over this one, not because I don't think it's important, but it's just the one that takes the longest. Everyone, even professional writers, cannot avoid this category and it will happen especially after you write thousands and thousands of words. (If google wasn't correcting me, this post would have so many typos). I generally try to point out any of the jarring things that stick out like a sore thumb, but editing and criticizing even a small page of a story could take up to a couple hours. The more of these you can point out, the better.

7). Be willing to give examples

This may seem like a weird one, but I always feel like it should be promoted. Remember show, don't tell. It's supposed to be more effective by showing what someone is doing wrong than telling him, which examples just do that. I used one in that topic to kind of give a better idea of what it is. I also do analogies which can get really weird sometimes, but I like giving people pictures to help understand what I'm doing (versus them thinking I'm a grouchy old man).

Story and Plot Based Criticism
(I couldn't think of a better title for some reason)

1) Setting the World (See what I did there, no? okay)

World building can drastically change in importance depending on the work of writing. Fantasy is known for creating new and unique worlds. I remember a lot of people giving me criticism that they couldn't tell what time period or era my one novel was in. This was due to the lack of details as well as some very heavy lore (which I actually though more deeply of to really flesh it out better).

Usually, this is regarded as the setting which can take place anywhere. Even in a place we're familiar with, such as New York, you always want to include details to give visuals which also help set the mood. Just like with the other points, you'll realize these all connect. The best thing to talk about is what you think of this world/setting as it usually helps the writer see if they got what they wanted across

2) Building Some Character

Another big topic I probably could make a whole article or three about. This is by far one of my favorite topics. Anyways, there are three dimensions of characters with 1-d basically being people in the background without names and 2-d more or less being shallow and unimportant characters like a taxi driver conversing with the hero. 3-d characters usually consist of the main cast and a handful of others. It's pretty easy to distinguish these, but sometimes it can be hard to make them done well or interesting. You could probably talk about what makes a character strong or weak and the use of their details (you don't need to give everything, but usually their unique features should be emphasize). There's almost always something that could be talked about for each character (don't even be afraid to call out your favorites).

3) Character Dialogue

I miss the old days where I could come up with golden lines for a character. Anyways, this is another one I like because sometimes you can point out a characters tone that makes them unique and shows their personality. Sometimes it requires actions outside of what they say, but don't be afraid to say that a character feels shallow due to their lines or such. Depending on the writing, there actually could be no lines said and show more character than any lines that could be. Yes, silence could be considered dialogue in a strange way, but it's always something to talk about. Language also is important here as a smart character may have a more complex vocabulary (but there can be exceptions).

4) Plot points and their twists

A story is going to have events that take place throughout and it could be about anything. Usually, you can talk about how well done or effective they are...or not so well done. Plot twist is usually the big one people talk about. A good writer is able to give hints about the twists and sometimes it's both fun and criticism just to take a guess based on something that happened. When the twist or event happens, you then can judge how well done it is.

5) Let the writer know if you like the genre or not

This one might sound silly, but it's something I like addressing. I don't care for romance books, but I've read a couple that I liked. I used to get a lot of weird requests since I was a critic and I often would tell them I'm not really into that genre (horror is my least favorite because of visuals in them). First off, it let's them know that I'm not an expert in that genre so maybe they can brush some things I say off. I mean if I say I found a horror story displeasing because I hate gore descriptions, I sure hope they don't tone back because I don't read them.

Even if you don't like the story, don't be afraid to say something since you just spent probably at least a half hour reading it. As I mention earlier, silence is worse than negativity believe it or not.

------------------------------------------------------------------

That turned out a lot longer than I intended, but I barely covered the basis. If there's something important that I missed, feel free to share it or criticize any of my points. If the man who made a topic about criticism can't take criticism, then we got a problem. I just feel like I needed to make this topic so that nobody can use the excuse "I have nothing better to say."

(If you do, I will find you, and I will kill you...but seriously, don't do it other than as a joke)

Edit: I just wanted to add this since I kind of glazed over it, but Aqui said it best:

I thought it would be prudent to point out that you don't always have to give criticism. I can't speak for other writers, but personally, the three things that make me happiest, in descending order, are: writing, talking about my writing, and recieving criticism. Just talking about a story shows that you enjoyed it enough to form attachments to its characters and world. Criticism certainly helps the author to improve, but if you have nothing to criticise, just talk about the work with the author. Say what you did and didn't like about the chapter, make jokes about the characters, single out which character is your favorite; etc. Authors love talking about their work. They love their work being talked about. There are few greater gifts you can give an author than to engage at length with them in a discussion about their work.

[Halloween]

aah this is real helpful man, thankchuu.

no seriously what did you do with "setting the world" i hate it when i don't catch puns

[Shadow Sketches]

aah this is real helpful man, thankchuu.

no seriously what did you do with "setting the world" i hate it when i don't catch puns

setting=world

This is really cool to see. I personally always think I'm a shit writer that has a lot to learn and seeing stuff like this is always nice to give me some tips to learn from. I don't think I've actually gotten criticized yet on my writing skills (for good or bad) but I do agree that criticisms is something everyone needs in order to see what exactly they do that's amazing and what they do that's sub-par.

Though I do have to admit I'm usually kind of wary of criticizing as my writing skills aren't the best. Makes me feel like a blind man trying to tell someone how to see.

P.S: I probably should never be criticizing on word choice as I am horrible at it.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Shadow Sketches

[Commander]

It was originally going to be called saving the world, but I felt setting was a better pun there given they're the same thing

SS, you may feel like a hypocrite at first (don't worry, I've struggled with word choice, but I have a dictionary just in case and I have ways to use simple words in unique ways), but you wouldn't believe how much it helps. I was really weak at details at first because my brain sometimes just couldn't grasp visuals which is a major problem.

[Shadow Sketches]

It was originally going to be called saving the world, but I felt setting was a better pun there given they're the same thing

SS, you may feel like a hypocrite at first (don't worry, I've struggled with word choice, but I have a dictionary just in case and I have ways to use simple words in unique ways), but you wouldn't believe how much it helps. I was really weak at details at first because my brain sometimes just couldn't grasp visuals which is a major problem.

(No worries, I have google :^) )

Yea, there had been plenty of times where I would spend countless minutes just trying give detail to an aspect of the scene I'm writing because I'd have some trouble visualizing how it would look. Though I think I'm getting slightly better at it just from reading others' posts and practicing it more myself.

[Felicity]

Bear in mind criticism is not something to follow blindly. If the commenter had a valid query about the work or notices something you missed it can be good to register it but when it comes to more subjective things then you start stepping on shaky ground. When in doubt it can be better simply to dismiss a comment rather than let it negatively impact you. For example, when writing someone comments that they'd like to see X trope in your post apocalyptic story. Maybe they want a protagonist with some A-cup angst. So you work it in. You use the trope a little before leaving it alone. Then you look back and realise you had a girl worried about her body image in a world where it hardly matters to her immediate survival. It clashes in a way that some people might like but otherwise detracts from the serious nature of the story. This could have been avoided by dismissing the criticism.

[Code: PIRULUK]

I thought it would be prudent to point out that you don't always have to give criticism. I can't speak for other writers, but personally, the three things that make me happiest, in descending order, are: writing, talking about my writing, and recieving criticism. Just talking about a story shows that you enjoyed it enough to form attachments to its characters and world. Criticism certainly helps the author to improve, but if you have nothing to criticise, just talk about the work with the author. Say what you did and didn't like about the chapter, make jokes about the characters, single out which character is your favorite; etc. Authors love talking about their work. They love their work being talked about. There are few greater gifts you can give an author than to engage at length with them in a discussion about their work.

[Flux]

I thought it would be prudent to point out that you don't always have to give criticism. I can't speak for other writers, but personally, the three things that make me happiest, in descending order, are: writing, talking about my writing, and recieving criticism. Just talking about a story shows that you enjoyed it enough to form attachments to its characters and world. Criticism certainly helps the author to improve, but if you have nothing to criticise, just talk about the work with the author. Say what you did and didn't like about the chapter, make jokes about the characters, single out which character is your favorite; etc. Authors love talking about their work. They love their work being talked about. There are few greater gifts you can give an author than to engage at length with them in a discussion about their work.

Ayyy, this so much. One of my favorite things as a writer (If I can even call myself that) is to simply hear people talking about it. I love to know which characters people like, which characters people hate, and why. It's the random stuff like that that I appreciate the most, though I also very much appreciate criticism, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately, people don't seem very motivated to talk about that stuff around here (outside of a select few topics) unless prompted in a post-chapter questionnaire or something, which is a shame. Maybe it just means the writing wasn't interesting enough to prompt them to talk about it, who knows. But yeah, I love hearing what people think of the characters I make, the settings, the plot, whatever it may be.

[Jacobliterator]

Dude.....woah.....fun 'little' thing? Little?...I bet you think you're funny don't you? But yeah, like your read on criticism and feedback.I'd even say it's of (wink) critic-al importance.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I thought it would be prudent to point out that you don't always have to give criticism. I can't speak for other writers, but personally, the three things that make me happiest, in descending order, are: writing, talking about my writing, and recieving criticism. Just talking about a story shows that you enjoyed it enough to form attachments to its characters and world. Criticism certainly helps the author to improve, but if you have nothing to criticise, just talk about the work with the author. Say what you did and didn't like about the chapter, make jokes about the characters, single out which character is your favorite; etc. Authors love talking about their work. They love their work being talked about. There are few greater gifts you can give an author than to engage at length with them in a discussion about their work.

If me bolding and making it type face that large wasn't enough... ((oh and making the text yellow cause I'm a butthead.)) I don't know what else I can do to stress this.

TALK TO ME ABOUT MY STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFF. I want to talk about it... like seriously... I want to discuss this stuff with the people who enjoy reading it. Tell me things you loved and that made you laugh, why you like characters, if they remind you of something.

My favourite thing in my writing career thus far is ((and I won't name who.)) told me that a character reminded them of themselves. That she identified with a character I ahd written on a personal level. Seriously... it wasn't feedback and it wasn't criticism. It was just talking to me about my work. PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE do it more! I cannot stress this enough. I want to enjoy the banter between fans and myself and just people that really like my work. You'll see that everytime someone asks something or they talk about something in one of my threads... I always answer. BECAUSE I WANT TO DISCUSS MY WORK XD. Why else write it if I can't talk about it?

Also, Commander, would you mind if I pin this thread? On the condition you fix the black text though in the spoilers cause man... I shouldn't have to highlight something to be able to read it properly lol.

[Combat]

As an English major (or at least a declared one,) I can say that getting criticism is one of the best things that can happen. I'm not talking about the "why is there no shipping zero out of a hundred" type criticism of course, but anything that helps me see what the public didn't like really helps. If someone didn't like the setting, it helps to know. If they don't like a fantasy setting, it can help me change my form. Plus, criticism helps me know that someone actually read my story. The fact that someone is actually taking time out of their day to write something is both a boost to my self confidence, and let's me become a better writer. Just reading something I've made and not putting anything down is kind of brutal, as it means my story wasn't worth talking about, or gosh forbid, wan't even worth finishing. If even wasn't worth finishing, I'd like to know why. Feedback is the lifeblood of an author, and those who leave without it shall now be dubbed "Feedback Vampires!"

That sounded a lot better in my head.

[Commander]

Saying nothing is almost no different than saying you didn't like the story. It more or less means you didn't care for it and don't feel like it's worth the effort to say anything. Silence is the worst thing for a writer as it fills them with doubt and kills their self esteem and motivation. Short one lined comments are a tiny bit better, but not that much. To me, it feels like I failed as a writer for not getting you engaged to say anything more than you liked it. Why did you like it? If anything, it could be that you didn't like it and wanted me to feel better.

You don't have to be a critic or even really good at giving feedback to really motivate a writer. A little bit goes a very long way. I love it when people give me a small paragraph and reasons why they liked it as it makes me want to do more. Seriously, 3-4 sentences to the writer goes a long way and more is better. As a writer, I've gone back through both criticism and feedback many times when I feel down or I am struggling to write. Both are just so important and make me feel like I'm not wasting my time.

I thought it would be prudent to point out that you don't always have to give criticism. I can't speak for other writers, but personally, the three things that make me happiest, in descending order, are: writing, talking about my writing, and recieving criticism. Just talking about a story shows that you enjoyed it enough to form attachments to its characters and world. Criticism certainly helps the author to improve, but if you have nothing to criticise, just talk about the work with the author. Say what you did and didn't like about the chapter, make jokes about the characters, single out which character is your favorite; etc. Authors love talking about their work. They love their work being talked about. There are few greater gifts you can give an author than to engage at length with them in a discussion about their work.

I actually do agree with you. That's even why I put in things in criticism that can be talked about so casually such as a favorite character. Generally through, I welcome any type of discussion on anything I do so long as its the truth. I've seen people fear saying stuff as it might make them look bad, but I gained a reputation of being the one guy to go to as he was completely honest. But I pretty much enjoy everything on equal terms, but I like really long comments because they're easy to go back to and fun to respond. You could give me 50 comments on anything I write and I would respond to every single one as writing is a passion.

And I know Dobby said that criticism can be hurtful, but I actually was part of a community that sometimes backlashed against criticism as it was considered "hurting others and putting them down." Since this is more about the reader, I decided to not include anything about when to take and ignore criticism because surprise, surprise, that might make someone think giving criticism is completely pointless, which it's not. Criticism from a writer's POV is a really big topic in and of itself which if people want me to do more of these, I would certainly cover it.

And Huk, yes, please pin this. I kind of was expecting that because yeah, it's a post I want people to go to if they don't know what to say on something they read and get the writer's perspective. (I'm also going to add Aqui's post in the OP since it's better written than anything I could add).

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Done and Dooooone. Carry on folks.~

[Hiss13]

Silence truly is a terrible thing for a writer putting their work out. While writers generally write for themselves and because they want to, that itself is only half of it. When writers put their work out, it's because they want to engage with an audience on some level. We don't care if it's criticism or praise. We honestly want to take satisfaction in the fact that someone took the time and effort to read through and try to understand that craft as well as to be able to engage in a conversation about the work we crafted.

At least, that's how the romantic in me sees it~

[Solarus]

Well, if I was planning on doing creative writing, which I'm not good at, cuz I suck at describign things, there would be problems, cuz I imporperly use commas, and probably have some form of dislexia, I make a lot of typos involving putting letters in the wrong order

[Gabriel1]

Tell me about how silence kills self-esteem.

 

Seriously, I haven't had anyone tell me any constructive thing about my story since weeks, when I posted the first chapters, despite my fic having a decent flow of visitors and views.

Urgh, and now I'm asking a few people for a bit of opinion sharing and I feel like an insecure mess of an attention whore.

 

Do you have any advice on how to personnally deal with this as an author?

[Commander]

7 minutes ago, Gabriel1 said:

Tell me about how silence kills self-esteem.

 

Seriously, I haven't had anyone tell me any constructive thing about my story since weeks, when I posted the first chapters, despite my fic having a decent flow of visitors and views.

Urgh, and now I'm asking a few people for a bit of opinion sharing and I feel like an insecure mess of an attention whore.

 

Do you have any advice on how to personnally deal with this as an author?

Well I don't know if it counts as necroposting but who honestly cares at this point. So I'll just give you a reality check that all authors strive to reach a skill level called "there" for now. Without looking at anything you haven't reached that point yet. Because of that, getting to "there" is a brutal task in and of itself.

 

It is a hit harder because the big fish (not sure if I count) are not doing any activity here to bring in traffic. I'd love to do it but there is just too much on my plate. It unfortunately is because of that no real trend can start up. You need a lot of patience and reaching out to people for advice like you're doing here. I had to basically beg people to play the mod I was working on and then it eventually picked up traction months afterwards. That's because I was getting better which attracts more interest.

 

Seems like you're troubled by something. I know you're not alone on this so I can do a lecture type thing to help noobs out or I can look at it individually and give you advice on where to go from now. I'm not going to be able to give you instant results. It doesn't work like that.

 

Now if you want me to look at whatever you are working on, shoot me a PM giving some details. Don't just say I need feedback because you know more about the work than I do. How do you want me to help you? I know you want discussion but what kind of discussion as there's a number of ways to answer that. 

[Gabriel1]

1 minute ago, Commander said:

Well I don't know if it counts as necroposting but who honestly cares at this point. So I'll just give you a reality check that all authors strive to reach a skill level called "there" for now. Without looking at anything you haven't reached that point yet. Because of that, getting to "there" is a brutal task in and of itself.

 

It is a hit harder because the big fish (not sure if I count) are not doing any activity here to bring in traffic. I'd love to do it but there is just too much on my plate. It unfortunately is because of that no real trend can start up. You need a lot of patience and reaching out to people for advice like you're doing here. I had to basically beg people to play the mod I was working on and then it eventually picked up traction months afterwards. That's because I was getting better which attracts more interest.

 

Seems like you're troubled by something. I know you're not alone on this so I can do a lecture type thing to help noobs out or I can look at it individually and give you advice on where to go from now. I'm not going to be able to give you instant results. It doesn't work like that.

 

Now if you want me to look at whatever you are working on, shoot me a PM giving some details. Don't just say I need feedback because you know more about the work than I do. How do you want me to help you? I know you want discussion but what kind of discussion as there's a number of ways to answer that. 

 

Damn, I hadn't noticed the last post's date. Sorry about that.

 

Besides, thank you for the reply. I'm going to follow this up in PM, like you suggested.