Items,Moves and Other Methods of replacing HM/TMX use

[Oth]

Having to carry around HM-slaves has always been, in my opinion, one of the most pointless things in the Pokemon franchise. But this could easily be improved both in logic, usability and efficiency.

One example of doing so would be implementing a Flashlight item that when used, would have the same effect as Flash (the code for this is already in Pokemon Essentials). A similar thing could be done for each HM-move, Surfboard/Raft/Boat for Surf, Hammer/Pickaxe for Rock Smash, Axe/Machete for Cut, Lever/Exoskeleton for Strenght, Scuba Gear/Diving Ball/Submarine for Dive, Upgraded Boat for Waterfall, Climbing/Hiking Gear for Rock Climb, Glider/Balloon/Plane/Dirigible/Teleporter for Fly, etc.

Another way to improve the HM situation would be increase the number of moves that have a field use (that can activate the "HM use"). For example, Slash could be used to cut trees, Pokemon with Muddy Water could use Surf, Teleport could serve as Fly, Psychic serving as Strenght, Brick Break serving as Rock Smash, Aqua Jet serving as Waterfall, etc.

Some abilities could also be used for a similar effect, for example, having a pokemon with Illuminate in your party should grant you Flash-range illumination by default.

Maybe Surf could changed so that any Water-type pokemon (or at least any pokemon that can learn surf) grants the player the ability to surf outside battle, regardless of whether the pokemon actually knows the move "Surf" or not.

Obviously, all these change would/could be as limited as the actual HMs/TMXs for story purposes.

Has there been any talk about actually implementing it in Reborn? I know that you can easily replace the moves for when/if you need them, but if I'm going to have to teach a pokemon Dive/Waterfall/Rock Smash/Strenght/Fly every time I want to use them, I might as well prefer any or a mixture of the suggestion posted above.

[dead account]

One example of doing so would be implementing a Flashlight item that when used, would have the same effect as Flash (the code for this is already in Pokemon Essentials). A similar thing could be done for each HM-move, Surfboard/Raft/Boat for Surf, Hammer/Pickaxe for Rock Smash, Axe/Machete for Cut, Lever/Exoskeleton for Strenght, Scuba Gear/Diving Ball/Submarine for Dive, Upgraded Boat for Waterfall, Climbing/Hiking Gear for Rock Climb, Glider/Balloon/Plane/Dirigible/Teleporter for Fly, etc.

Another way to improve the HM situation would be increase the number of moves that have a field use (that can activate the "HM use"). For example, Slash could be used to cut trees, Pokemon with Muddy Water could use Surf, Teleport could serve as Fly, Psychic serving as Strenght, Brick Break serving as Rock Smash, Aqua Jet serving as Waterfall, etc.

I'm not sure about the others, but I'm sure I've seen the ideas in the quote box implemented in Pokemon Zeta/Omicron and Insurgence. I wish more fangames(and even the official games) did stuff like that, because having to waste a valuable move slot on something that only has 40 base power is just terrible.

I think Ame has said something about wanting Reborn to be its own thing, and not wanting to use ideas from other fangames, but I'm not too sure.

[Oth]

Yeah, I pretty much want to expand on what has been done in those fangames+little bit of logical use of pokemon moves.

From what I gathered, Ame seems to consider implementing beneficial/requested stuff from other games, as long as it doesn't involve "code stealing", which shouldn't be a problem here. In fact, she has already collaborated with Suze (ZetaOmicron/Insurgence's creator).

Edited April 11, 2016 by Oth

[mde2001]

There is almost no chance of this happening to be honest.

Reborn isn't the kind of game where this is the point in the same way that there are no delta pokemon/ custom megas/ fakemon. It stays pretty true to the main series in these elements, and removing HMs isn't really within the cannon of the game.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to in the last paragraph. She doesn't like ripping elements from other games which is the code stealing stuff. What stuff are you referring to when you say she considers implementing beneficial/ requested stuff from other games?

I obviously can't say for sure, but I doubt it will happen. When Reborn is done it will be fully open to user mods though, so someone might do this to it then.

[Dante52]

Yeah, I pretty much want to expand on what has been done in those fangames+little bit of logical use of pokemon moves.

Well Insurgence already did the "logical use of pokemon moves" as well. In that game you CAN use moves outside of battle to bust up rocks and move boulders, plus there are items for the HM's.

I agree with you though, the HM items was something that I loved about Zeta, not having to use an HM slave was so refreshing. (Plus using a machete to hack through those annoying trees just felt great)

Edited April 11, 2016 by Dante52

[Oth]

Reborn isn't the kind of game where this is the point in the same way that there are no delta pokemon/ custom megas/ fakemon.

PULSE pokemon are already technically custom megas. Plus most of my suggestion isn't asking for something "new", but instead of an improvement of what already is there.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to in the last paragraph. She doesn't like ripping elements from other games which is the code stealing stuff. What stuff are you referring to when you say she considers implementing beneficial/ requested stuff from other games?

I'm referring to pretty much the same thing (ie in how she has directly said she won't use anything without the author's permission).

From her comments on the forums, at least the PULSE/Megas was due to it being implemented in Pokemon Z/O. There could be more stuff, since after all, I'm new to the forums, the assistant coding credits for Suzerain doesn't specify.

Well Insurgence already did the "logical use of pokemon moves" as well. In that game you CAN use moves outside of battle to bust up rocks and move boulders, plus there are items for the HM's.

I know, but imho its still limiting. Sure, not as limiting as HMs are in the official games/Reborn, but still Strength isn't what it could be. And Waterfall, Rock Climb we have yet to see (probably replacement items too).

Edited April 11, 2016 by Oth

[Ironbound]

You know what. It's already a great boon that HMs in Reborn are treated like TMs and that you don't need to go all the way to some old man to have them erased. Thank Ame for that.

Also, from a logical perspective, it may be fine to carry a flashlight, but even with the hammer space bag, carrying a Glider and a friggin Waterfall-climbing-boat is too much, don't you think?

Besides, having the player run around with hammers, pickaxes and hatchets isn't quite the done thing. Granted, there is a sword Pokémon and Reborn is kinda a dystopia, but that will have to draw a firm nolle prosequi.

Which brings us back to the premise: use Pokémon to do things for you. The idea of Illuminate being an auto-flash is a good one, and so is using Brick Break instead of rock smash and Superpower instead of strength etc etc, but they have a slim chance of happening because of the extra work that would entail. Besides,as Michael said, Reborn is mature in terms of plot, yes, but it sticks to the core game mechanics in almost all respects.

So, in short: Noli equi dentes inspicere donati, and all that good stuff.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Viridescent

[Oth]

There is no need to take my suggestions as a complaint. Honestly I don't really expect these to be implemented due to how Reborn revolves on HM-acquisition and the hassle that accommodating any of these ideas would bring (outside of them being unlockable late-game/after defeating the E4).

In regards to storage space, you seem to be forgetting in-game characters actually carry more Items than the capabilities of a PC system "designed" to store items, and also usually carry more item variety than most Pokemarts. Trekking around with thousands of items on their backpacks, storing a glider would be as easy as storing a bicycle. Even a boat isn't much of a stretch, as long as you think more paddleboat-sized and less yacht. Besides, a "boat" is just one of the possible options, if anything the surfboard/inflatable raft are the most plausible (for Surf).

My issue with going Ability+Moves only is how asking for permission to use moves your pokemon already knows clashes with the haste Reborn pushes storywise for HMs.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Oth

[Deleted User]

In fact, she has already collaborated with Suze (ZetaOmicron/Insurgence's creator).

Tell me you're not talking about 'Rising Rainbow'. Outside of that, I have literally no idea what you're talking about TBH.

[Hank_Nghiem]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in reborn cut can be used in forest fields to change the move to grass type as well as increased based power. Also while I agree it would be a nice idea to have HM items that do the heavy lifting. I usually disperse the HMs around my main Pokémon so they may all be a tad bit weaker, but I don't lug around an HM slave that has little usage in combat, or does the clutch save miracle win with a dodge and crit. Personally HM moves aren't that bad at all. Having Dive or Fly on a toxic staller is wonderful not to mention protect. Strength on Pokémon with refrigerate isn't at all bad considering its base power is pretty close to return, and in comparison to hyper beam it has more PP. Rock smash can be learned by Pokémon who could use the extra type coverage, and the reduction to defense is a nice support to tanks who can soften up their opposition for their sweepers. Cut is honestly the only move that I can't see usage much, but again refrigerate could make it a tad bit nicer.

I see where you are getting at, and its nice and all, but in case of Zeta and Omicron, which I played a little of, they used the mechanic only in a single Pokémon run which would be impossible due to the numbers of HMs that exist. I have yet to try other games you have listed with similar concepts. I'll give them a try, and see if my opinion alters.

[Oth]

Tell me you're not talking about 'Rising Rainbow'. Outside of that, I have literally no idea what you're talking about TBH.

I have no idea what do you mean by that. Neverless, check your Readme.txt file inside your Reborn folder for my source on the scripting collaboration. Plus there is also this post.

I see where you are getting at, and its nice and all, but in case of Zeta and Omicron, which I played a little of, they used the mechanic only in a single Pokémon run which would be impossible due to the numbers of HMs that exist. I have yet to try other games you have listed with similar concepts. I'll give them a try, and see if my opinion alters.

Could you please expand on why do you think it would be impossible? Zeta/Omicron used the mechanic on all game modes and covered all HMs. You did get the items from a special seller in Nuzlocke-mode, while you found them throughout the game world in a standard playthrough.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Oth

[Hank_Nghiem]

I have no idea what do yu mean by that. Neverless, check your Readme.txt file inside your Reborn folder for my source on the scripting collaboration. Plus there is also this post.

Could you please expand on why do you think it would be impossible? Zeta/Omicron used the mechanic on all game modes and covered all HMs. You did get the items from a special seller in Nuzlocke-mode, while you found them throughout the game world in a standard playthrough.

Wait what they used it in all game modes! I never got pass the third town, so here lies my experience. Well serves me right for entering a topic I was ill prepared for. Well that part of my argument is invalidated. Sorry about that. I only play when all six of my pals are on, and we all play together. So getting all six of us on at a time is a rare occurrence.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Hank_Nghiem

[Deleted User]

I have no idea what do you mean by that. Neverless, check your Readme.txt file inside your Reborn folder for my source on the scripting collaboration. Plus there is also this post.

That would be using material from, not 'collaborating'. Collaborating is working on a particular project together. The readme backs this up. Secondary scripting support basically means. "I got this person's ok to use something they made in my own thing.' That's far from 'collaboration'. If you think about it terms of music, is sampling a different person's song (with their permission of course) 'collaboration'. Yes, I'm nitpicking, but I wouldn't anticipate Amethyst ever genuinely collaborating with anyone else really.

[Oth]

We really have no way of knowing what exactly happened unless both persons involved answered your doubts. But if you want to argue semantics, due to the context, collaboration is the most logical outcome. Let's see the facts:

• Since Ame wasn't going to rip someone else's code, she'd need to ask for permission.
• She wasn't implementing the code (or even part of the whole) as is, but instead she was going to modify it to fit her purposes.

So not only she had to ask for permission, she'd also have to ask to Suze for explanations regarding pretty much anything, specific terms he used, variables, constants, naming, etc. Do you seriously think she never had any doubts nor asked anything besides permission? Explaining code is actually work per definition. Hell, some of the time its easier to code than explaining what it does and how it does it.

Seriously, I don't understand why you can fathom Ame collaborating with anyone, Pokemon Reborn is proof that she has no problem doing it in the first place.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Oth

[Samalet]

You know what. It's already a great boon that HMs in Reborn are treated like TMs and that you don't need to go all the way to some old man to have them erased. Thank Ame for that.

Jesus, never noticed that, this is amazing. Yeah, I don't think Ame needs to rework HMs if we can just use one once they're needed and then replace them with another TM again.

[laggless01]

I've heard an argument about this in favour of HMs not so long ago.
It talked about how battle-oriented the arguments against HMs are, and it misses the entire exploration-component. It was like: Pokemon can get you to places you couldn't get before, not only in strength, but in travel too (or maybe even personal growth). And HMs do fulfill one of those (or two in some cases). (I think)

I'm a bit in the middle. I get the point, but I also do get annoyed about low-power must-have moves to progess sometimes. I'm glad they're overrideable in Reborn.
(Perhaps making HMs so that giving them to a mon that can learn it allows you to use it could be an option, too.)

[Oth]

Reminds me an idea I had heard, where to the standard 4 moves slots you'd add a support move slot and a field move slot (the part that actually matters to the topic of this thread), were you could only use the 4 moves slots and the support move slot in battle.

[Commander]

First off, I know Pokecommunity has a lot of scripts laying around in which the creator's already give permission for game makers to use such as the multiple difficulties code. I can't remember if items replacing HMs is part of that section, but it doesn't matter. I can't say anything about the other modders, but NORMAL REBORN and ANYTHING I MOD for Reborn WILL NOT have items replacing HMs as HMs are a very, very important part of the game. Now let me explain:

You tried using the excuse that HMs are a wasted move when in reality, they can be some of the strongest move due to field effects. Look closely at the field effects and you'll realize an HM you have to use for puzzles has some type of effect on the field. However when the HM becomes obsolete, you don't have to use it as much (or not at all). The fact that they can be overridden now pretty much removes the need for an HM slave and rarely would you need all 24 moves on every Pokemon, even in Hardcore, the modded, harder version of reborn, let alone a team of 6 perfect pokemon. Strength is definitely one of my favorite moves in Reborn due to it being hugely underrated.

Reborn isn't a perfect game and will have both problems and complaints. A problem is something that gets in the way of the experience to the point it hurts or hinders it. A complaint is something in the experience that you, or a small minority, did not enjoy. This lack of HM items is a complaint, but you are allowed to express your thoughts, however, it doesn't mean it'll be addressed or anything will be done about it, unlike a problem.

[Oth]

A complaint is something in the experience that you, or a small minority, did not enjoy.

Somehow people are getting the wrong impression that wanting to discuss other possibilities besides the ones already implemented means I didn't enjoy them in the first place. As I have previously stated, the point of this thread is discussion better/more efficient ways of handling the HMs. I never expected any change to occur in the first place, mostly for story reasons as I've already mentioned. Even if we had a nearly-perfect game there is nothing wrong about wanting it to improve even further. After all, perfection is relative.

[FairFamily]

Personnaly thinking about it for a while, HM's are an interesting aspect of the game. They make the player rethink and temporarely reform his team without forcing them to train up a new pkmn. A secondary action HM's do is to allow a player to appreciate pkmn that aren't appreciated for their battling prowes. Another thing is that HM are an important part of the narritive of the game. After all we are a game about pkmn so allowing pkmn to help you in your quest is good to give the player a feel of the world. They are also one of the few ways for a player's pkmn tointeract with the map. They also influence the narrative as the goal of a lot of "quests" is to hunt them down to advance forward into the world. Assigning them a to a more common item would downplay the importance of these quests. Finally it would make no sense: imagine Florinia running around with an axe on her as a teacher.

So I think HM's are a good aspect of this game.