The Science Corner

[Tempest]

I'll say it first... I'm just getting on the boat with Viri and TimTim here, but I love science, and decided there needs to be a science thread.

Welcome to the science corner, a place discuss all things science from quantum mechanics to sociology. Science news, questions, discussion, facts, whatever interests you, all is welcome here, so chatter away to your heart's content.

I'm utterly terrible at picking a starting topic, and I know it's old news, but how about the discovery of gravitational waves, which also simultaneously proved the existence of black holes if I'm not mistakebe. I wouldn'the surprised if a Noble Prize was headed their way.

[Ironbound]

Yay, more knowledge! I love that we have places like this.

I'll get back to the black holes thing later, but I'd like to stay another topic if I can: Pokemon flight mechanics! It's something I've been wanting to talk about, and was considering starting a thread for Pokemon physics or Pokemon biology, but if this is a place for all kinds of theoretical science, we can talk that, too!

I have a few examples of Pokémon flight: Latios, Magnezone and Empoleon. Yes, Empoleon. I'd like to see what the physicists can tell me, before I try and bring up what I learned.

[Tempest]

Of course theoretical science is allowed! After all, my favorite topics of discourse are just theory: relativity and the standard model of quantum mechanics.

...yeah they are just monikers and it's not the same thing, but I'm making a point!

Anyways, once I'm done with work in an hour or so, I'll throw my hat into the ring and discuss more.

[Tempest]

Alright.

Well, my take on it was that there was multiple different methods of flight. I'll run down the list:

• Normal winged Pokemon: this is fairly obvious. They're no different than other birds in my mind. Pidgey, Fearow, Braviary, all fly by flapping their wings, displacing air and forcing themselves upwards/forwards due to Newton's third law.
• Latios/Latias: Since they are psychic, I assumed was their main form of levitation. There really isn't much science behind it, since it cannot happen in the real world, but it's well set in Pokemon lore. In addition, at high speeds, their wings would generate some lift most likely, but their psychic powers are still their main form of propulsion. If you watch Pokemon Heroes, both Latios and Latias float above the ground without aid of their wings.
• Magnezone: Magnetism has been shown to levitate objects that aren't normally magnetic. So it's entirely plausible that magnets within it push it off the ground.
• Empoleon: This would be much like penguins in the real world, which function much the same as bird wings: by displacing water and and causing them to be propelled forward due to Newton's third law.
• Palkia/Dialga/Arceus: Some of the high legends have been shown to fly in the movies. Since they can manipulate the very fabric of reality, it's within the realm of possibility then can manipulate the spacetime to propel themselves into flight. Sort of like a miniature Alcubierre drive.... or just psychic. They all have been shown to posses some psychic power. When you're literally a god, there isn't much you probably can't do.
• Gastly/Haunter: These get trickier. They are described as being composed of some kind of gas, and if it's the exactly the right density, it's possible to have suspension. However, what controls their movements and keeps them together? There is no concrete answer. The best I can give is some sort of psychic power again.
• Weezing: Shit. I got nothing really. Only explanation I can come up with is that the gas they produce is lighter than air, allowing them to exist in a state of suspension, and by emitting more gas, it may be able to control it's direction.
• Cryogonal: This one is interesting... my best explanation is that its body is incredibly light with very little density, and that by cooling the air underneath it, it causes the destiny of the air to rise, making it lighter than the air around it.
• Eelektross: I don't think I've ever actually seen it float/fly, but... perhaps gases it creates within it's body create buoyancy, or it produces enough electricity to allow it to float through electrostatic levitation. Given enough charge, anything can become oppositely charged.

I know I didn't cover all the Pokemon, but I think I covered most of the explanations. Something like Bronzong might fall under the same category as Latios/Latias, and eventually I'd just start repeating myself. Even something like Pikachu with fly -- it's an even Pokemon for some reason -- could be chalked up to electrostatic levitation.

[TimTim]

Awesome thread Tempest, I will get back to this thread when I have thought of something to contribute to this topic. Any thought on keystones affecting pokemon physiology that some of them change typings, abilities and stats? Also how does Polaris transmit from biological perspective?

[Ironbound]

I'd also like to point out that Kyogre apparently flies. I can't imagine how it manages that!

Garchomp apparently flies by generation some thrust from its ear/horn/jetcraft-engine attachmebts on the sides of its heads. I believe it's shown that they glow and release a great amount of energy while using Dragon Rush, for example.

Also, yes, I love the fact that you acknowledge Empoleon's flight. It has wings, not fins; it doesn't actually swim, it flies underwater with the same principles of lift and drag reduction via Bernoulli's Principle, just like Latios and Latias would with their wings, which are shaped like jetcraft-engine wings (rounded on the top and flatter in the bottom) to soar, either through air or through water.

And we can always say that Magnezone does indeed float by generating magnetic fields with its appendages, that its diamagnetic, superconducting body can float on, to overpower the force of gravity. It's not flight, per se, but rather levitation, as you did say. (More reason for it to get Levitate, stupid GF!)

Now, I wonder why the dex says that it's not possible to evolve a Magneton artificially in a lab? In Reborn, as well, the failed PULSE Magneton created ZEL by some freak accident, while also evolving the Magneton into Magnezone. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it before I expound mine.

[Tempest]

Well... it's a tough answer...

Honestly there probably isn't any science behind it. If I had to guess though, it's because it's a very specific magnetic field that needs sufficient strength to cause evolution. It might be the interaction of several dozen magnetic fields to create the magnetic field needed for Magnezone to evolve, and it's condition's may be nigh impossible to create in a laboratory setting.

I have a few more ideas. Since I dunno the conditions of what created ZEL -- I stopped playing after episode 11 or so, and even then I don't really remember much -- I'm going to assume that the magnetic fields created... it... in some way, and not some freak explosion or something to do with a reactor or somethin'.

In the real world, black holes can have a charge and a magnetic field. However, uncharged black holes cannot. If there was a flurry of charged, microscopic, black holes, it could cause some utterly strange things to happen. Of course, the hawking radiation would be immense, and it would be like a nuke going off.

Something like a naked singularity would certainly be incredibly strange, since it's a point of infinite density, and yet it's not hidden behind an even horizon. This has to assume that loop quantum gravity is correct. Since theories predict a naked singularity could produce light, it's reasonable to extend it to producing magnetism, since according to quantum electrodynamics, magnetism is the propagation of virtual photons. Certainly, a naked singularity would be utterly insane, and I cannot even began to predict the effects, but perhaps it persists in the Pokemon world somewhere... of course, this assumes loop quantum gravity is correct, and the cosmic censorship hypothesis is incorrect... which is a pretty strong conjecture as it stands right now, and it's unlikely to be wrong.

There's also magnetospheric eternally collapsing objects (MECOs), which are essentially black holes that never fully collapse. These could produce some wicked magnetic fields, and we aren't actually sure of the effects of them, and they aren't proven yet. However, they are strongly plausible, since normal black hole formation requires that matter move faster than the speed of light, violating one of the most successful scientific theories ever. These may so-called quark stars as well.

It may a naked quark or even, if they exist, naked preons. These shouldn't exist, but the standard model is just a theory, and there are problems with it. It could be some new exotic particle that causes it, something like a glue ball perhaps.

Potentially a magnetar/neutron "star", if it was tiny, could cause something of this effect. Extreme gravity combined with magnetic fields that could rip iron from your body from 100,000km away would produce some... ahem... stellar affects.

There's the possibility of a wormhole or a tear in spacetime. In the real world, white holes are considered a possibility, and they're the opposite of a black hole, nothing can go in them, and they may be the "other side" of a wormhole. In Pokemon, a strange phenomena caused by one of the creation trio could be cause for this.

Finally, and really the explanation I'd go with, something like a closed-time-like loop could be cause, and in theory, be created by Dialga. CTCs allow for events to occure without a cause, and break causality, so some event could have preceding cause. If these places with strange magnetic fields were actually a CTC, it could cause spontaneous fusion, without an actual cause in normal reality.

Or in all of this, I'm just over analyzing and being strange. It is Pokemon after all; there's no real way to explain it, so I was just spitballin' here and throwing out everything I could think of. There is one more particle I wanted to talk about, but I can't remember it. It's a gravitational wave that loops in such a way as to be a particle.

So in essence, there is no answer. Becuase its Pokemon.

[Samalet]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magnet_Rise_%28move%29

All Pokemon who learn this move can fly or at least float by creating strong electric currents and inducing magnetic force. Interestingly this involves some Pokemon you wouldn't expect to be able to do this, like Aurorus, Larvesta or Riolu. But honestly, all attempts at scientifically explaining Pokemon break down at some point and we enter the realm of literal magic. Most moves are just not realistic and reconciling game mechanics with lore proves hard if not impossible.

Also, I'm pretty sure OP didn't intend for this to turn into a conversation about Pokemon when he started the thread. That fits more into the Pokemon Fan Club anyways.

I'm utterly terrible at picking a starting topic, and I know it's old news, but how about the discovery of gravitational waves, which also simultaneously proved the existence of black holes if I'm not mistakebe. I wouldn'the surprised if a Noble Prize was headed their way.

Yeah, that was pretty exciting. The first real detection of gravitational waves, after the BICEP2 report from a few years back turned out to be wrong. It's nice to have definite proof and another experimental confirmation of Relativity (even though it wasn't exactly unexpected). Little nitpick: the existence of Black Holes has been pretty much confirmed for 20 years anyways.

[Tempest]

You're right. It seems I was mistaken. It provided the first evidence of binary black holes. However there also were other explanations of black holes, and their very existence now has some nasty assumptions and some hard facts to reconcile, such as the destruction of information and the necessity that matter move faster than c during the collapse of the black hole. This is where something like quark stars, electroweak stars, or ECOs are perhaps better explanations. Even now, we may be wrong about black holes, as other objects may be able to cause similar phenomena.

[Deleted User]

I guess for now I ask the question, what do you make of the reveal of the plethora of newly discovered exo planets a few weeks to a month ago? (don't remember the exact date)

[Tartar]

I actually have an answer to the Weezing dilemma.

After checking the Pokedex I found out that Weezing only weighs 9 kilos and Koffing only weighs 1 kilo and has a height of 1,2 m. This means that Weezing is made out of two spheres the Koffing sphere which has a radius of 0,3 M and the Weezing Sphere which has a radius of 0,6 m.

This gives us a total volume of:

V= 1,25*pi*r^3 ⇔ V = 1,25*pi*0,3 + 1,25*pi*0,6 = 3,53 m^3

In the real world Hydrogen has a lifting power of 1,2 kg/m^3. This equates to a lifting power of 4,2 kg were Weezing to be a Hydrogen Balloon. This is around half the lifting power needed to lift Weezing. So Weezing would NOT be able to levitate in the real world. But luckily we're in the Pokemon world, where the air is perhaps more dense which would increase the lifting power of gasses, or Weezing has a gas inside of it that is even lighter than Hydrogen.

This leads me to my conclusion. Koffing would easily be able to float in in the real world. But once Koffing evolves it evolves some type of ultra light gas inside of it which allows it to continue levitating. This would also explain how Drifblim and Drifbloon can fly.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Tartar

[Samalet]

Mmh, the whole exoplanet development is interesting because we now know that probably most stars in the universe have planets, with many being earth-like. There are estimated to be up to a billion rocky planets in the habitable zone in our galaxy alone. For me that pretty much confirms that life has to have developed somewhere else as well.

[Tartar]

Or Earth could be a special little snowflake :3

Or life is so rare that even if intelligence life would evolve it would wipe itself out in short span of time it lives for, before having the option to contact another species. Which is the most elegant solution to the Fermi Paradox.

[Sparky]

What about the concept that Europa, one of Jupiter's multitude of moons, could potentially be harboring extra-terrestrial life beneath the frozen ocean? "the chemical balance of those oceans would be very similar to the ones here on Earth, suggesting there'd be enough hydrogen and oxygen there for life to form - even without volcanic activity." http://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-just-found-even-more-evidence-that-europa-could-host-alien-life

[Cool Girl]

Since this is a science thread. Is it possible to ask for help on science homework?

[Spineblade]

I actually have an answer to the Weezing dilemma.

After checking the Pokedex I found out that Weezing only weighs 9 kilos and Koffing only weighs 1 kilo and has a height of 1,2 m. This means that Weezing is made out of two spheres the Koffing sphere which has a radius of 0,3 M and the Weezing Sphere which has a radius of 0,6 m.

This gives us a total volume of:

V= 1,25*pi*r^3 ⇔ V = 1,25*pi*0,3 + 1,25*pi*0,6 = 3,53 m^3

In the real world Hydrogen has a lifting power of 1,2 kg/m^3. This equates to a lifting power of 4,2 kg were Weezing to be a Hydrogen Balloon. This is around half the lifting power needed to lift Weezing. So Weezing would NOT be able to levitate in the real world. But luckily we're in the Pokemon world, where the air is perhaps more dense which would increase the lifting power of gasses, or Weezing has a gas inside of it that is even lighter than Hydrogen.

This leads me to my conclusion. Koffing would easily be able to float in in the real world. But once Koffing evolves it evolves some type of ultra light gas inside of it which allows it to continue levitating. This would also explain how Drifblim and Drifbloon can fly.

Thing is though, those calculations assume that Koffing and Weezing are entirely hollow and that their whole volume is filled with the gas. Since that's obviously not the case, it must be super light!

Which is kind of odd when compared to hydrogen, since it's composed of literally one proton and electron. How do you go lighter than that?

Edited June 5, 2016 by Spineblade

[Samalet]

Pokemon don't give a shit about physics, simple as that. I mean, a ball of poison can't live in the first place, and floating is a small fry compared to the other shit Weezing can do.

[Tempest]

It is fun to think about though.

[TimTim]

Pokemon don't give a shit about physics, simple as that. I mean, a ball of poison can't live in the first place, and floating is a small fry compared to the other shit Weezing can do.

We never know, life comes in many forms. As we previously believed life couldn't survive in extreme environment before archaebacteriums were discovered, nature proved us dead wrong. Never say never in science.

CG, sure you can ask about homework as long as it is science related, i am more than happy to help with regard to biology and chemistry.

[Ironbound]

All right, I found an interesting theory about Pokémon Biology. That's scientific theory too, eh?

Notice Crawdaunt. It is red and white, with a golden star on its head. Look:

Now, look at the negative space of the white chin. Resembles an open maw with teeth, right? In fact, in the gloom of the ocean deeps, the silhouette resembles nothing but a Sharpedo, complete with golden star at the crown!

Now, mimicry is common in animals, that is, one animal evolves to look very like another. Many animals will take on superficial traits of other animals, mostly to avoid being preyed upon. The harmless milk snake imitates the patterns of the venomous coral snake, for example, as does the Viceroy butterfly of the poisonous Monarch. And at first, that’s what I thought was going on with Crawdaunt; It disguises itself as a deadly predator, Sharpedo, to avoid being hunted itself.

Then, something didn't seem to fit. Why does Crawdaunt, which is itself a terrifying predator and vicious savage, want to look like Sharpedo? Why does the smaller and weaker form, Corphish, which should in fact be the one trying to hide itself from predators, not seek to do so by imitation? In fact, why disguise as a Pokémon with the exact same typing, i.e., which shares the same weaknesses, which would only be detrimental defensively, especially when you see that both Sharpedo and Crawdaunt are glass cannons.

Because, as I realised: Crawdaunt DOESN'T try to hide itself from predators. It’s disguising itself for hunting!

Aggressive mimicry is also found in the animal kingdom, where an animal will use traits of another animal to lure in prey. An important factor to note is that Crawdaunt is capable of learning some nasty Fighting and Bug moves, both of which would prove advantageous against the Dark type Sharpedo.

Yes, I am suggesting that Crawdaunt lures in its prey by pretending to be a member of its own species, and then either bludgeons it to death or literally shreds it to pieces with its massive pincers!

Crawdaunt...I'm scared...

[Ironbound]

I found some stuff to explain Magnezone's evolution process:

Magnezone can only evolve in a magnetic field that can't be recreated in a lab. Field strength is measured in Tesla units. The earth's average field strength varies from 0.000031 to 0.000065 Teslas depending on the latitude.

Now, there are four places where Magnezone can evolve in the Pokémon world:

1.Mt. Coronet: The highest mountain in Sinnoh and the location of the Spear Pillar, home of the portal to various dimensions.

2.Chargestone Cave: A cave in Western Unova that is full of glowing, floating stones.

3.Kalos Route 13: A barren wasteland that is the site of the manmade Kalos power plant.

4.New Mauville: Another man-made powerplant located under Mauville City in Hoenn.

We know all of them have some sort of strong magnetic field. For both power plants, the source is relatively obvious. Any moving charge creates a magnetic field, whether it's an electron around a nucleus, or a current through a wire. These power plants must manufacture and distribute massive amounts of electricity, which generate a massive magnetic field appropriately.

Chargestone Cave appears to be a deposit of diamagnetic superconductors. Basically, this allows the stones to easily float, just like Magnezone itself does. As for Mt. Coronet, it's probably either a strong magnetic pole, contains lots of ferromagnetic ores, or perhaps theres something about Arceus that generates a big magnetic field.

In any case, all four locations have a Magnetic field in the order of around 1 Tesla. About 10 Teslas will kill a person, and since the areas are frequented by trainers, it's definitely closer to 1.

Now, I am lead to believe that laboratories can easily produce magnetic fields that are larger then anything that naturally occurs in our solar system. The largest ever lab-generated field was 45 Teslas, while the largest ever lab-generated pulse field was 730 Teslas, which destroyed the equipment used. If Magnetons evolution was based on field strength alone, theres no reason why scientists could not recreate it in a laboratory setting.

But because Magnezones evolution is not artificially possible, there has to be something else unique about these sites that triggers Magnetons evolution. Based on my understanding of what the internet tells me, I think the answer lies in how Magnetons magnets interact with the environment around it; not the other way around.

Every material, I'm told, has a quantity called magnetic moment, which determines the magnetic force it will feel. During the experiment performed by the scientists mentioned in Magnezone's dex entries, they likely isolated and insulated their experiment from any other factors. So while the strong magnetic field could interact with Magneton, Magnetons own magnets did not act on the thing generating the magnetic field.

I am told that essentially, Magnetons own magnetic field interacting with its environment around it (the thing thats generating the field) would take the already large magnetic field and make it into a changing magnetic field. Changing magnetic fields apparently have lots of interesting effects that stationary fields do not. If a field is changing fast enough, it can supposedly even have the same effect as bombarding you with radiation.

Radiation is what causes Magneton to evolve, or rather, to mutate, into Magnezone. This fits in well, since Magnezone is supposed to be a Magneton that has 'melted' together. Magnezone gets the radiation energy it needs to evolve from a strong, changing magnetic field. It is not re-creatable in a lab setting because Magnetons own field is not allowed to interact with the equipment generating the external one; which would likely harm the equipment anyways. We know that Magnezone's magnetic field is sufficient to casually destroy mainframes and supercomputers, as stated by the dex.

So, best stay away from Magnezone when it's evolving, because I understand that being exposed to the radiation of a rapidly changing magnetic field is akin to being stuck in a microwave!

[Tempest]

[Ironbound]

That's very interesting. Also note that a bit freaky, but fascinating nevertheless.

[Tempest]

This is one of the better articles I've found that boils down Hawking's new paper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/07/science/stephen-hawking-black-holes.html

My question is... what the hell would be on the other side? A white hole perhaps?

[Tempest]

This is really cool:

http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-just-discovered-a-new-nucleus-shape-and-it-could-ruin-our-hopes-of-time-travel