Pokemon Reborn on TVTropes: Base Breakers and The Scrappy (SPOILERS)

[Lord Chespin]

So, not sure if you guys know, but there's a page on TVTropes for Pokemon Reborn (and, thanks to me, a page for Pokemon Rejuvenation). I'm trying to update them, but I figured for the YMMV (Your Mileage Might Vary) Tropes should be run by the community before I edit them. So, today we're talking about Base Breakers and Scrappies.

Base Breakers are characters who are loved by one part of the fanbase, and hated by the other. There is no meaningful middle ground; you either like them, or you hate them. The Scrappy, however, is a character who pretty much the whole fandom hates. This guy has pretty much no fans, and for good (albeit non-story-related) reasons: he's annoying, never gets comeuppance, is unhelpful, is boring, gets no character development, et cetera.

So, with that in mind, I figured I'd start by nominating Titania and Saphira as Reborn's resident base breakers. A good chunk of the fandom that I've seen like Titania for her snarky, no-nonsense attitude; Saphira for her intense loyalty to her sisters; and both for being no-nonsense antiheroes who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty to save the day. However, another part of the fandom (a part that includes me) find their playing of What Measure is a Mook (for those who don't want to check the link, basically the belief that henchmen don't really matter and can be massacred without remorse) dead-straight (no pun intended) disturbing, especially since you wade through the gory aftermath. It doesn't help that the story split where Laura accompanies you to the Tanzan Mountain base that there was a non-violent solution to massacring the mooks, and that the grunts in the Water Treatment Center actually cared for Titania and didn't try to hurt her before she murdered them. Titania gets hit harder by this, since Saphira at least has the excuse of trying to protect her sisters, even if she does go overboard; Titania, however, is a full-blown sociopath who justifies her rampages with "Team Meteor stops at nothing to achieve their goals, so I shouldn't either", when (in my opinion) that mentality makes you no better than the people you're fighting.

As for the ignoble honor of being Reborn's Scrappy, I'd like to nominate Victoria. She means well, yes, but she tries to stop you from progressing when there's really no other way. Additionally, she doesn't get as much character development and puts her interests before the common good (yes, I'm sorry your mentor is terminally ill, but without Strength I can't save actual orphans who are being tortured). However, what really secures her Scrappy-ness for me is her chewing Cal out atop Pyrous Mountain; yes, it's not an unjustified reaction, but if you recall, he was the one to save Apophyll- not Kiki- and you find out he would have saved Apophyll anyway if Kiki didn't try to be a hero, making her hatred of him taste kind of bitter. Hopefully she gets redeemed in Episode 16...

So, what do you guys think? Be sure to let me know!

Edited August 17, 2016 by Lord Chespin

[Amanojaku]

I think Cal also counts as a Base Breaker, because I've seen lots of people who like his redemption arc and lots of people who hate him for being involved in Kiki's death strictly because he wanted to one-up his brother.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

As for the ignoble honor of being Reborn's Scrappy, I'd like to nominate Victoria. She means well, yes, but she tries to stop you from progressing when there's really no other way. Additionally, she doesn't get as much character development and puts her interests before the common good (yes, I'm sorry your mentor is terminally ill, but without Strength I can't save actual orphans who are being tortured). However, what really secures her Scrappy-ness for me is her chewing Cal out atop Pyrous Mountain; yes, it's not an unjustified reaction, but if you recall, he was the one to save Apophyll- not Kiki- and you find out he would have saved Apophyll anyway if Kiki didn't try to be a hero, making her hatred of him taste kind of bitter. Hopefully she gets redeemed in Episode 16...

So, what do you guys think? Be sure to let me know!

Victoria didn't know about Cal's plans, though. Not even the player knew the PULSE machine was rigged until after beating Aya and returning to the city. Also, about needing Strength I'd fault Kiki for getting in our way more than Victoria. Victoria at least understood it was for the kids as she said so after the battle, but Kiki made us climb a mountain and battle Cal to get it, saying that just giving it to us would disrespect everyone that worked for it. Despite the fact that it isn't "Give me Strength because I'm special", it's "Give me Strength to rescue some children", which completely justifies breaking standard/code/tradition.

(that being said I completely agree with Victoria being The Scrappy, I was just responding to those points)

EDIT: Also I nominate Terra as Base Breaker. Some people love the memes and some people think they clash with the atmosphere of the game.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Ice Cream Sand Witch

[Taska]

Scrappy is Fern. Deeeeeeefinitely Fern. His only character development iirc is realizing that not being a gym leader with a monotype (grass) is bad against types that are super effective to it, which is pretty obvious. He hasn't changed at all. Plus he is the biggest jerk in the game. Everything he does is only for himself at the end of the day and believes he's better than everyone else. How could anyone like him?

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Scrappy is Fern. Deeeeeeefinitely Fern. His only character development iirc is realizing that not being a gym leader with a monotype (grass) is bad against types that are super effective to it, which is pretty obvious. He hasn't changed at all. Plus he is the biggest jerk in the game. Everything he does is only for himself at the end of the day and believes he's better than everyone else. How could anyone like him?

I think The Scrappy is for characters who are disliked for non-story reasons. For example, Victoria isn't The Scrappy because she's a bad person (she's not), she's The Scrappy because people don't like that a lot of her interactions with you are stopping you from doing something or going somewhere.

[Chase]

I would like to nominate Cain as a base breaker. Hear me out.

Cain is probably loved by most of the fan base because he's comic relief done right in this game. Out of left field and completely aware of real human depravity - which is why his innuendos are hilarious to the majority of us.

...and then he gets a little heavy-handed with it. He'll make you laugh at first, and then you find yourself going "Bro...Bro.....okay, bro. You gotta stop."

I'm not saying he -should- make the cut because I'm fairly certain he may be a character the people who get tired of his consistency -do- find some middle ground with, but if Cain is going to maintain his pace for the rest of the game, he could become a considerably bigger base breaker in the future.

...Also, the only thing better than Victoria redeeming herself in 16 is being the person Ame kills off in 16. So yes, she's definitely the Scrappy.

Edit: threw the wrong character under the bus.....that character has already had her share.

[Timber Dragon]

Agreed for Victoria as a Scrappy, and Titania and Saphira for Base Breakers. For another Base Breaker, I'd probably add Charlotte too. I'm sure she has her fans, but I know her attitude tends to rub some people the wrong way, including myself. She's snarky and flippant and despite supposedly being a high-ranked gym leader, she depends on the PC (who's "Not up to [her] rank" yet) to save her ass, without actively contributing to much herself. It's like, who do you even think you are?

I'd also argue that Titania could be a Creator's Pet. I say arguably because she doesn't get significantly more... significance than other characters, but Ame says Titania is her favorite character whereas a good chunk of the fanbase has... well, mixed feelings about her.

On the flipside, would anyone agree that Shelly could be added to the Ensemble Darkhorse entry? I don't actually know how (un)popular she is, but she's one of the gym leaders who tends to get more screen time and she is pretty damn adorable. I'm not sure how many fans she actually has, but I have this feeling it's a decent amount.

[Commander]

I know one base breaker for Hardcore is Techie Johnathan because oh boy do I have people who really liked the surprise and reference and then there's people who get completely turned off by it. Doesn't really count but that one pops out in my head. (We all also know I have a huge bias for Julia because she's my fav).

I'd consider putting Cain in the Base breaker because there is like no middle ground for him. Then again, I don't pay too much attention to people's thoughts and I rarely go to TVtropes.

The Scrappy I feel is really hard to give someone other than Victoria. El is about the only other character who would fit that but for some reason he just kind of gets pushed aside or not hated due to the dittoceus surprise. I pretty would classify a lot of characters into the really forgettable or easy to forget categories for example:

-Serra, Samson, Ciel, Arclight, The Aqua and Magma members, Luna, Noel, Orderly John, or uh...Hardy.

I picked those characters because without another character they really aren't that interesting and I find to be boring. Samson has a really fun personality but it doesn't work when he's by himself and you can kind of pick out the rest.

[WanderingCorvus]

I think Titania would be a good fit for the "Base Breaker" title, for all the points you specified. Sure, she is a cool character but her disregard for the lives of enemy grunts is rather disturbing. I would also nominate Heather for the "Scrappy" title, due to how she acts for the majority of the time you know her. She manipulates her friend Shelly into agreeing with her, is generally unpleasant to talk to early on, and after you save her from the orphanage she simply flies off without saying anything. Despite this, we are inclined to feel sorry for her. Granted, she did go through a lot of trauma, so I don't know if that is a deciding factor or not.

[Timber Dragon]

Oh yeah, Heather would also be a candidate for Scrappydom. She might also fit Rescued From the Scrappy Heap after some self-reflection on how her actions have impacted others, and how she helped Ametrine not starve and stuff. That's when she started growing on me, at least.

[Caraboo]

Fern would technically count as a Hate Sink character. A character we're supposed to put all of our hate towards.

I, however, completely agree with Titania being a base breaker. I'm with you on that, everything about her irks me. I'll admit, I'm a bit more forgiving for Saphira, but I also understand why she could count as one, too. Another reason I don't like Titania personally is also her breakage of the 4th wall wayyyy early in the game, where she apprently bought a journal for only one reason, and that is to write down a 4th wall breaking snark on the off CHANCE that someone might actually try and read it. That clashed with the tone of the game for me, too.

EDIT: Also I nominate Terra as Base Breaker. Some people love the memes and some people think they clash with the atmosphere of the game.

I fully second this motion to. Oh good god it felt so good to absolutely wreck her with my Serperior when I got to battle her. I couldn't stand Terra, personally.

[Dreamy]

With a few of the "base-breakers", for me personally it somewhat comes down to immersion. as a player, they do things that are really annoying (rub in how little freedom of action we have as the player etc) but your player character as a person would probably feel differently as they have just witnessed their actions as a person. the first one that comes to mind is Charlotte.

[Busti]

I know one base breaker for Hardcore is Techie Johnathan because oh boy do I have people who really liked the surprise and reference and then there's people who get completely turned off by it. Doesn't really count but that one pops out in my head. (We all also know I have a huge bias for Julia because she's my fav).

I'd consider putting Cain in the Base breaker because there is like no middle ground for him. Then again, I don't pay too much attention to people's thoughts and I rarely go to TVtropes.

The Scrappy I feel is really hard to give someone other than Victoria. El is about the only other character who would fit that but for some reason he just kind of gets pushed aside or not hated due to the dittoceus surprise. I pretty would classify a lot of characters into the really forgettable or easy to forget categories for example:

-Serra, Samson, Ciel, Arclight, The Aqua and Magma members, Luna, Noel, Orderly John, or uh...Hardy.

I picked those characters because without another character they really aren't that interesting and I find to be boring. Samson has a really fun personality but it doesn't work when he's by himself and you can kind of pick out the rest.

What is the story about Techie Jonathan?

I think that Radomus is a base breaker in my opinion. I don't like him. He is purposely not being clear about what is going on, and I feel like he could have prevented a lot of trouble if he would just act appropriately. Yet still, he is funny.

[Chase]

Randomus is DEFINITELY a base breaker - because the few people that DON'T like him are seemingly very suspicious of his real motives. There isn't middle ground there. You either love his aloofness and presentation - or you don't trust the guy. Period.

[Tartar]

And honestly, we're throwing the Base Breaker term around too casually. Sure Reborn with its Black and Grey Morality there can be a lot of arguments about how to view a character, but this doesn't mean that anytime the view of a character is split in the community it becomes a base breaker, only the worst offenders are to be used under this trope.

And no, I don't think Randomus, El, Cal or Cain, are Base Breakers in any way. Simply put, there isn't nearly enough discussion within the community about the way to view the character to warrant the title. Though I do definitely agree to Terra being a possible candidate for Base Breaker, since people so often comment how much they hate her for detracting for the story, or love her for her "dank memes".

On the Victoria note, I'm kinda indifferent towards her, she has her reasons for what she does, and I don't feel she ever acts unreasonably, so I don't feel the need to particularly hate her.

-

Victoria didn't know about Cal's plans, though. Not even the player knew the PULSE machine was rigged until after beating Aya and returning to the city.

Actually the event can be triggered the moment you return to the city after the events by going towards Jasper Ward.

[Chase]

Radomus and Cain have had their days, friend - but I don't think the community usually stoops to the point of crying about characters under Ame's nose. I will give you the fact that my basis has been on speculation threads about which leader is going to betray us regarding the former and the 'What I don't like about Reborn' thread for the latter.

El......people like El? And Cal is someone that I haven't seen much discourse on at all, as you have said.

Addendum: It should be known that the defining traits of a "Base Breaker" is very broad in nature. It's not held to a specific in the thread here - and if we're going to have an incredible amount of morality angles all at once then the only consensus definition can be "One group hates the character, the other likes the character, there isn't very many people on the outside who are just on the fence."

Many characters will qualify for that one - no matter how "precise" we want it to be.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Actually the event can be triggered the moment you return to the city after the events by going towards Jasper Ward.

There are so many things about Reborn I'd never have known if it weren't for the forums. I just went straight for the wasteland.

[Anstane]

What about Blake? I mean we didn't get to see him all that much, admittedly, but what we saw I'd say warrants at least a nomination to the Scrappy spot. The only thing that I like about him is that he's an Ice-type trainer and...that's it, really.

Let's see...being an all-around douche when you're around him, being quite an asshole to Cal (Whom I started to warm up to during the Ametrine arc, even if I don't quite forgive him for what happened on Pyrous). I think it's more his implied badness and his attitude just rubs me the wrong way.

I mean I can probably see why he might not get a spot (We didn't get to see a lot of him, only Ametrine and the attack on Fiore Mansion), but I'd like to at least see him considered.

[Caraboo]

What about Blake? I mean we didn't get to see him all that much, admittedly, but what we saw I'd say warrants at least a nomination to the Scrappy spot. The only thing that I like about him is that he's an Ice-type trainer and...that's it, really.

Let's see...being an all-around douche when you're around him, being quite an asshole to Cal (Whom I started to warm up to during the Ametrine arc, even if I don't quite forgive him for what happened on Pyrous). I think it's more his implied badness and his attitude just rubs me the wrong way.

I mean I can probably see why he might not get a spot (We didn't get to see a lot of him, only Ametrine and the attack on Fiore Mansion), but I'd like to at least see him considered.

I dunno, I feel like Blake would also be more of a Hate Sink character. We're most certainly not supposed to like him in any way, and the game makes no attempt to do anything else but make him a jerk you'd want to hyper-beam off of Ametrine Mountain.

Would Fern be a Jerk Jock? ...Y'know, cos, he's a Swag Jockey.

[Lord Chespin]

And honestly, we're throwing the Base Breaker term around too casually. Sure Reborn with its Black and Grey Morality there can be a lot of arguments about how to view a character, but this doesn't mean that anytime the view of a character is split in the community it becomes a base breaker, only the worst offenders are to be used under this trope.

And no, I don't think Randomus, El, Cal or Cain, are Base Breakers in any way. Simply put, there isn't nearly enough discussion within the community about the way to view the character to warrant the title. Though I do definitely agree to Terra being a possible candidate for Base Breaker, since people so often comment how much they hate her for detracting for the story, or love her for her "dank memes".

On the Victoria note, I'm kinda indifferent towards her, she has her reasons for what she does, and I don't feel she ever acts unreasonably, so I don't feel the need to particularly hate her.

-

Actually the event can be triggered the moment you return to the city after the events by going towards Jasper Ward.

Well, I'd say Reborn is more of a case of Gray and Grey morality, with the heroes being A Lighter Shade of Grey. The nooks of Team Meteor are nice enough people, and some of the Admins (Taka and ZEL) are nice enough, but the higher-ups are rotten to the core, making the dysfunctional but well-meaning heroes more sympathetic.

[Monochrome_Complex]

I wouldn't call Victoria a Scrappy. She's not outright hated or anything, and her detractors honestly come off as a vocal minority to me.

Fern is actually quite popular, as he's a love to hate kind of villain. Too popular to be a Scrappy, and he's not a Base Breaker either. Titania? Yeah she's a BaseBreaker.

Bennet is probably the only character who comes close to being a Scrappy.

EDIT: actually Heather in the early episodes was definite Scrappy material and flat out detestable, but I feel she was "Rescued from the Scrappy Heap" in later episodes.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Monochrome_Complex

[Amanojaku]

Victoria would also be a very good candidate for They Wasted A Perfectly Good Character, because she had potential to be a supporting rival like Cain but it was wasted due to her disappearing from the story very early on, and for Never Live It Down due to the orphans incident, even though the real roadblocks in that case were Kiki and Cain.

[Tartar]

Well, I'd say Reborn is more of a case of Gray and Grey morality, with the heroes being A Lighter Shade of Grey. The nooks of Team Meteor are nice enough people, and some of the Admins (Taka and ZEL) are nice enough, but the higher-ups are rotten to the core, making the dysfunctional but well-meaning heroes more sympathetic.

Except for the fact that as of this moment Team Meteor may be justified in their actions, since the humans of the Reborn region are actually the invaders of the region, and Team Meteor being the ones to try and restore it to whatever it was previously. So as of this moment due to us not knowing what their endgame goal is, we can't say that they're actually evil, just that the methods they use are very harsh, though this may be a case of them believing that the end justifies the means, to whatever utopia(?) they're trying to create.

[Amanojaku]

Except for the fact that as of this moment Team Meteor may be justified in their actions, since the humans of the Reborn region are actually the invaders of the region, and Team Meteor being the ones to try and restore it to whatever it was previously. So as of this moment due to us not knowing what their endgame goal is, we can't say that they're actually evil, just that the methods they use are very harsh, though this may be a case of them believing that the end justifies the means, to whatever utopia(?) they're trying to create.

That only really counts for Solaris, El and maybe ZEL, though. Lin's faction just wants power, Blake is only in it for the lulz and Taka is afraid of going against family tradition.

[Tartar]

That only really counts for Solaris, El and maybe ZEL

You just mentioned the main leadership or Team Meteor.

They're not evil for the sake of being evil. They're using terrorism to do what they personally think is for the best for the region as a whole. I'm not sympathizing with them, I'm just saying that I can empathize with them and their actions.